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Israeli Air Strikes In Gaza, Part 12  
User currently offlineModerators From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 509 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5176 times:
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228 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5163 times:

The Syrian "president" Basher Asad is congratulating Hamas to their "victory".

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1058257.html

Hardly a victory in my opinion. A failure for Israel, a somewhat weakened Hamas taking on the remaining elements of Fatah in Gaza (and hence gaining total control there), and a lot of death and destruction. This operation has no victors.


User currently offlineJutes85 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5159 times:



Quoting Thorben (Reply 2):

The Syrian "president" Basher Asad is congratulating Hamas to their "victory".

Now why do they do this? What is the reasoning behind them declaring victory?

People are dead or dying and someone has the audacity to call this "Victory"? Shame on them.

Quote:
But it is not in the Holy Koran.

If it isn't, which I believe it isn't, then why do so many use Islam as an excuse for terror?


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26854 posts, RR: 58
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5149 times:



Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
This operation has no victors.

Exactly. All it has done is orphan hundreds of Children who will have an even greater hatred of their attackers now.


User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5143 times:



Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 2):
Now why do they do this? What is the reasoning behind them declaring victory?

People are dead or dying and someone has the audacity to call this "Victory"? Shame on them.

Agreed. As stated above, I don't see any victor in this. But why not claim it after-wards?


User currently offlineEZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4964 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5143 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 2):
This operation has no victors.


I would like to agree with that, and furthermore extend to any war really (or most),

Quoting Thorben (Reply 2):
The Syrian "president" Basher Asad is congratulating Hamas to their "victory".

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1058257.html

Hardly a victory in my opinion

Considering their capability, I think it is kindo of a victory for Hamas. Let's look at it from their view ... they got Israel to look bad, they are still there, and they probably will have more support than ever.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 2):
A failure for Israel

And here is where I think we are all agreeing. But I'm not so sure as if this was a failure for israel so much as what they wanted. They did it in 2006 and repeated it now .. so it looks more like a strategy for some reason.

[Edited 2009-01-24 12:46:04]


Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26854 posts, RR: 58
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5133 times:



Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 2):
"Victory"? Shame on them.

Yes Israel IDF did the exact same thing. Shame on them also then.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26854 posts, RR: 58
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5127 times:

In an editorial released ahead of publication next Saturday, the British health journal said Israel, by hitting civilians and wrecking medical infrastructure, had carried out attacks that were "unjustified and disproportional."

"We find it hard to believe that an otherwise internationally respected, democratic nation can sanction such large and indiscriminate human atrocities in a territory already under land and sea blockade," The Lancet said.

"The collective punishment of Gazans is placing horrific and immediate burdens of injury and trauma on innocent civilians. These actions contravene the fourth Geneva convention."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/01/15/2466390.htm


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3427 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5119 times:
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Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 2):
If it isn't, which I believe it isn't, then why do so many use Islam as an excuse for terror?

i remember you saying that you lived in Israel i could be wrong but anybody who know our part of the world knows that religion is a very important part of our daily life.some use this attachment to religion for wrong purposes.It happens now as it did with other religions from way back.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineJutes85 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5118 times:



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 6):
Let's look at it from their view ... they got Israel to look bad, they are still there, and they probably will have more support than ever.

Which will lead to more violence....and still no peace.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 6):
They did it in 2006 and repeated it now .. so it looks more like a strategy for some reason.

Hamas lost many operatives and have spent a large amount of their weapon stock. Israel has also destroyed much of the tunnel network and will patrol the coastlines for any Iranian ships. Time will tell if Hamas wants to continue with more bloodshed or if they want to commit to actual government duties.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26854 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5116 times:



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 8):
know our part of the world knows that religion

And religion is abused by ALL:

Rabbi: Religious settlers can violate Shabbat to build

Concerns that the High Court of Justice might put a stop to the construction of new homes in the West Bank settlement of Ofra have led to the extraordinary step of keeping the work going seven days a week, irrespective of the religious prohibition against labor on Shabbat.

The decision relies on a religious ruling by Ofra's rabbi, Rabbi Avi Gisser, aimed at expediting construction so homes can be occupied before a possible court intervention.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/992214.html


User currently offlineJutes85 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5113 times:



Quoting OA260 (Reply 6):
Yes Israel IDF did the exact same thing. Shame on them also then.

I'd say that they did better than they did in 2006.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 8):
i remember you saying that you lived in Israel i could be wrong but anybody who know our part of the world knows that religion is a very important part of our daily life.some use this attachment to religion for wrong purposes.It happens now as it did with other religions from way back.

Just because I lived in Israel doesn't mean I'm a Jew or practice any religion for that matter. I personally believe that religion is a curse on this planet and humans. God probably doesn't exist so I'm not gonna worry about it and just enjoy my life.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26854 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5110 times:



Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 9):
Israel has also destroyed much of the tunnel network

Not according to recent video and news reports.

Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 11):
I'd say that they did better than they did in 2006.

In fact they did worse.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26854 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5084 times:

Onslaught on Gaza has boosted extremists - UN aid chief

ISRAEL’S ONSLAUGHT on Gaza has not only strengthened the extremists but also created fertile ground for extremism to flourish, John Ging warns.

The Irish national who is chief of Gaza operations for the UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), argues that the people of Gaza have for many years been caught in a cycle of death and destruction which grows worse with each round and has no conclusive result.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2009/0124/1232474679414.html


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3427 posts, RR: 17
Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5081 times:
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Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 11):
Just because I lived in Israel doesn't mean I'm a Jew or practice any religion for that matter. I personally believe that religion is a curse on this planet and humans. God probably doesn't exist so I'm not gonna worry about it and just enjoy my life

Anybody religion is between him and God.Did not mention anything about your religion,i was explaining how people can be brainwashed and become religious extremists even though no religion calls for that kind of fanaticism.And it is not only a case for Islam but religion was abused all over the history.Hope this is clear now.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineEZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4964 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5068 times:



Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 9):
Which will lead to more violence....and still no peace.

and that is precisely what we have been saying for 12 threads. That this attack led to nothing more than more hatred, hence more potential terrorists.
Seriously, it's preciesly why we have said that Israel's attack would achieve nothing more than death and destruction, with no real results against the terrorist threat.

Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 9):
Hamas lost many operatives and have spent a large amount of their weapon stock. Israel has also destroyed much of the tunnel network and will patrol the coastlines for any Iranian ships. Time will tell if Hamas wants to continue with more bloodshed or if they want to commit to actual government duties.

Time means nothing. Hamas of course wants to continue with this. Especially now that they've come out of this unharmed. A few tunnels? easliy rebuilt. A few militants? with the despair and hatred there now, you the 500 dead are going to be replaced with possibly thousands of new people that will have nothing to lose.



Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26854 posts, RR: 58
Reply 16, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5050 times:

History has a habit of coming back to haunt you.

TWO thousand weapons and two million bullets have been sent through Israel into Gaza, the most tangible evidence yet of efforts by Jerusalem, London and Washington to reinforce President Mahmoud Abbas against his Islamist rivals Hamas.

The delivery, with Israel's co-operation, comes 10 days after Tony Blair publicly backed the "moderate" Fatah leader in his power struggle with Hamas. Britain promised stg£1m (€1.49m) to bolster Mr Abbas's Presidential Guard.

But the US-led policy to undermine Hamas, which refuses to recognise Israel's existence, has prompted concern among international mediators that supplying guns and fighters amounts to backing one side in a civil war.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news...gaza-to-reinforce-fatah-66240.html


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26854 posts, RR: 58
Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5019 times:



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 20):
Winter is coming don't you think that those are needed to construct the houses,schools,mosques, shops,hospitals which were demolished lately?

Exactly. Israel will most likely use it as an excuse to make people sleep in UN and Red Cross tents or be made to sleep in the outside.





User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3427 posts, RR: 17
Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5018 times:
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Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 11):
I'd say that they did better than they did in 2006.

I did not know that there were a competition there.1300+ dead in 2008/9 and only 1000+ in 2006.Yes they did better in 2008/9.
But if you take in account the damage to the infrastructure you will find that it was much more in 2006.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineNitepilot79 From Turkey, joined May 2008, 269 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5010 times:

Might as well try to integrate oil and water, with both liquids claiming that they are not wet.


En Buyuk Turkiye, Baska Buyuk Yok!
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26854 posts, RR: 58
Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5006 times:



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 18):
But if you take in account the damage to the infrastructure you will find that it was much more in 2006.

Really , do you think so ? I must have forgotten what the scale of devastation was in 2006 because to me the current level of destruction is just over whelming. I cant imagine what the Palestinians are going through. No electricty and no sanitation facilities. Thousands with no homes and many children who have had both parents if not entire families wiped out. Then there are the ones who are nearly dead because the treatment they were getting were for normal burns and not chemials burns because Israel refused to admit to it.

I even find that harder to accept than anything else to be honest. Israel knew that they were using chemicals in civilian areas and let children die because they refused to let the Red Cross and UN know what the chemicals were.


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3427 posts, RR: 17
Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4991 times:
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Quoting OA260 (Reply 20):
Really , do you think so

Talking purely infrastructure yes.Visited Lebanon in a matter of fact the day Hezbollah kidnapped the soldiers knew what was going to happen went strait from BEY to Damascus.next morning all hell broke.Visited after the war.blocks of Buildings were destroyed.hundreds of bridges even very small ones,electric stations,part of the airport,factories among other things.Over a million refugee left the south of Lebanon heading North.Yep the damage was extensive.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3427 posts, RR: 17
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4973 times:
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Quoting Nitepilot79 (Reply 19):
Might as well try to integrate oil and water, with both liquids claiming that they are not wet.

Please can you explain the above.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7074 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4968 times:



Quoting OA260 (Reply 16):
The delivery, with Israel's co-operation, comes 10 days after Tony Blair publicly backed the "moderate" Fatah leader in his power struggle with Hamas. Britain promised stg£1m (€1.49m) to bolster Mr Abbas's Presidential Guard.

But the US-led policy to undermine Hamas, which refuses to recognise Israel's existence, has prompted concern among international mediators that supplying guns and fighters amounts to backing one side in a civil war

The pessimist in me would ask how the US was able to pull the strings of it puppets in the EU to not negotiate with Hamas while allowing them to defy them in Iraq, or how they were able to get Hamas to fire rockets and not renew the Egypt negotiated truce when it expired.
I guess one of these days I will wake up and realize that whenever the EU, UN and others speak they are only saying what the US told them to say  Smile

Extremism with the sword and the pen has to cease for work on making things better to get underway.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26854 posts, RR: 58
Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4964 times:

The BBC is being heavily critiscised by all major political parties in the UK over refusing to show a humanitarian Aid appeal for the civilian victims of the crisis.

2000 people protested at BBC HQ in London . Tonight the BBC is in crisis themselves as they come under huge pressure from the public and government to change their stance. Religious leaders including Jewish have also condemned the BBC.


25 OA260 : Well I agree with you there the EU showed weak leadership and as always cant make a clear cut decision. Egypt has more leadership IMHO.
26 Nitepilot79 : Basically, this conflict will never end.
27 OA260 : I do believe if the Beirut plan was adopted then there would certainly be a good chance. Until if and when it ever happens we will never know. Whats
28 Nitepilot79 : Humans don't deserve to be at the top of the food chain.
29 NAV20 : I find that VERY interesting, OA260, thanks. The last time Senator Mitchell was involved in peace negotiations he made it clear that both sides shoul
30 Post contains links Mortyman : Israel admits using white phosphorous in attacks on Gaza http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...rld/middle_east/article5575070.ece
31 Mortyman : There was a report on Norwegian news channel today, that the IDF had destroyed 50 000 homes in one area and left the ONE house where the Hamas leader
32 Baroque : Nice analogy but it is the case that if shaken vigorously enough they will form an emulsion, although the emulsions tend to separate quite rapidly. W
33 NAV20 : Thanks, Mortyman. So that clears up that area of war crimes. Maybe we should move on now to discuss the other weapons they've been using illegally. D
34 Post contains links Baroque : The BBC has refused to support an appeal for relief funds for Gaza At about the 10 minute mark on Newshour: http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/programm
35 Post contains links OA260 : Yes and the investigation has already begun. UN to probe claim Israel used depleted uranium bombs in Gaza United Nations organizations said yesterday
36 NAV20 : They could end up in even more trouble over the DU, OA260. DU is used because it's both hard and cheap. Tungsten is just as hard - but about 75% of t
37 OA260 : They dont have proper cars let alone tanks. Next the Israelis will be telling us that Hamas had a base at the McDonald's drive thru in Al Burayj.
38 Par13del : Now now, I guess frustration is setting in, join the club. It does sound as if you want the US, EU and UN to be colonial masters again, "find another
39 Baroque : Not really, I would just sooner they did not play favourites at all. But it appears that this is not their way. So if they must, they would be better
40 Us330 : With all due respect, Mr. Assad, with comments like these, it doesn't look like you will be getting back the Golan Heights anytime soon. I wonder wha
41 Post contains links Us330 : "The State of Israel will completely back anyone that acted in its name"--Ehud Olmert http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/...efense/index.html?iref=mp
42 Windy95 : " target=_blank>http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/...yview "U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon has demanded an independent investigation into Israe
43 OA260 : Not really in this case. Appeals for internationally recognised and respected charities not supporting any group should be allowed . Humanitarian aid
44 EZEIZA : Are you saying they should NOT investigate the fact that they bombed UN facilities? I honestly think there won't be a fully transparent investigation
45 OA260 : It certainly reads that way . But I dont understand the logic behind it. Dont investigate something because they have not investigated A/B/C . Well o
46 Us330 : I read the article on CNN, and the BBC's main point was that they do not want to be perceived as taking sides, and running that ad could lead some to
47 OA260 : And as clearly stated by governments/religious leaders of all faiths and non politically motivated groups it is purely humanitarian. So that arguemen
48 Post contains links OA260 : Gerald Kaufman, the Labour MP, said the BBC's decision to ban the broadcast was a serious error. Mr Kaufman said: "I think Mark Thompson [the Corporat
49 NAV20 : Not at all, Us330. Obviously the scale of physical destruction was utterly disproportionate - but that's only to be expected if you give an army 'ope
50 Windy95 : Yes. Waste of time and money. Your opinion Is there a point to this. A bomb that was designed to kill people. Is that not the whole idea.? To kill th
51 StealthZ : I certainly don't read it that way, my understanding of Windy95's point was that there are things that the UN should ALSO investigate. Cheers
52 Us330 : Evidently the argument does wash, considering that it is the BBC that is making the argument. Looking at it from their perspective, it actually makes
53 NAV20 : Misunderstanding, Us330, I was referring to the 'rules of engagement' and the objectives of the operational plan. Given that the Gazans had no army,
54 Post contains links Baroque : That is only the half of it. The full transcript was at the Newshour link I gave on the BBC website with a reply by the Israeli embassy in London. ht
55 Windy95 : So you agree that the UN is biased and that it should only investigate Israeli crimes. Why not investigate the crime that took place first in Iran gi
56 NAV20 : No-one's talking about the UN alone, Windy95. In first instance it is for Israel to investigate these cases. But there is currently no sign that they
57 Us330 : True, and while generally Occam's Razor would lead you to say yes, that is the case, there is also the possibility that they might be keeping any int
58 Post contains links Cairo : Their goals, their "victory" comes in two forms: 1. 2. the victory in the court of public opinion To Israel's enemies, Israel is largely a creature k
59 EZEIZA : I was hoping for that, but the reply was I think they should all be investigated. You claimed that one of them is a waste of time, talk about being b
60 Aaron747 : I would hope the rational conclusion that any sane person comes to is that there's nothing worth sacrificing young children for.
61 OA260 : No the UN is not biased. The late President was but not the UN. The USA have tried to block any kind of resolution that does not suit its back pocket
62 SOBHI51 : I think you meant last not late.
63 Baroque : Maybe the term should be post-President. No, not a misprint for past!!
64 OA260 : LOL..... I think your right.
65 Us330 : Really? Israel has been indicted for human rights violations plenty of times, while other countries, like Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Libya, Syria, an
66 OA260 : Well Israel makes out that it is the ''moral'' one so you cant claim that and then drop chemicals on Children !! The other countries that you quote I
67 Post contains links Jfk69 : http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...ename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull Top EU official: Hamas bears full responsibility for Gaza war "Hamas bears f
68 Baroque : Oh, so the US was part of the air strikes too? Did not know that.
69 OA260 : Hamas is a terrorist group. So whats new with that statement? Israel is supposed to be a democratic government with morals to protect human life. The
70 EZEIZA : True, but what about Iraq for example? How much did the UN try to do to go get Saddam? Israel, with the amount of terrirtory taken, civilian killings
71 Us330 : They didn't drop chemicals on children, so please stop exaggerating. Chemical warfare is the use of mustard gas, napalm, etc. White phosphorus and de
72 EZEIZA : Let me put it in another way; had it been Lebanon (just as an example) doing to Israel what Israel did to Lebanon in 2006, would there have been real
73 Baroque : As a matter of curiosity, when and why do you suppose the sale of oil by Iraq for food programs started?
74 Post contains links MadameConcorde : CBS's 60 minutes video http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/01/23/60minutes/main4749723.shtml
75 OA260 : Oh really ? Those burns must have been fake then.
76 Windy95 : If Israel had targeted the UN school then there would of been nothing left. The shells fell outside the building in response to attacks. I feel for t
77 Us330 : The latter. In this hypothetical situation (in which everything is reversed), the Lebanese responded to attacks on their soldiers and their civilians
78 Post contains images OA260 : White phosphorus (WP) is a flare- and smoke-producing incendiary device or smoke-screening agent that is made from a common allotrope of the chemical
79 Par13del : Well lets see, we saw evidence of WMD in Iraq used on the Kurds before Gulf War II, yet you would never beileve that any was there after all the clai
80 OA260 : That fact is disputed by many different groups . I can provide links if you wish.
81 Post contains links Us330 : I can too. Here is a a direct link to the three types ("schedules") of chemical weapons, as proscribed by the Organization for the Prohibition of Che
82 EZEIZA : Amazing that in the same post of mine that you quoted I actually said; We'll agree to disagree. Israel has gotten away with everything, and they will
83 OA260 : Well after seeing the results of what it does I certainly do along with others believe it IS a Chemical weapon . And even if I were to decide it was
84 Baroque : The realization bit is correct for mid 1990s, as for them starting that is 1991. Wiki UN Resolution 706 of August 15, 1991 was introduced to allow th
85 RussianJet : Bungled maybe, but hardly surprising given the level of game playing and undermining that consistently went on during that period from the world's ma
86 Us330 : The issue we were debating involved your implication about Israel's use of chemical weapons, not it's general stupidity. That is true, I will give yo
87 Windy95 : All bombs are made out of some type of chemical. Have you ever seen the results of of TNT.
88 OA260 : The issue we are debating is all aspects of the situation in Gaza . On all levels.
89 Post contains links OA260 : The DEC appeal for Gaza can be seen below :: http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=0AgUJncX4X4 The BBC has received 15,000 complaints for failing to show it .
90 RussianJet : With regards to this particular issue, the BBC is a total disgrace, and their excuses utterly weak.
91 EZEIZA : And it's the only one we have at such a global level, so with its positives and negatives, and until something more effective is invented, the UN is
92 Post contains links NAV20 : Have to say that this looks downright hopeful:- "U.S. President Barack Obama said on Monday that Israel and the Palestinians should resume their peace
93 Post contains links RussianJet : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7852745.stm It's a shame the ceasefire continues to be threatened. "An Israeli soldier has been killed an
94 OA260 : Yes although it looks like a one off and not a return to what has happened in recent weeks. Its a bit like the one on the Lebanese border. So far the
95 NAV20 : Absolutley. They were soldiers anyway. Must admit, in my younger days, if some foreign army had killed or maimed a couple of my kids and a few other
96 Par13del : Would you expect those soldiers you "have a crack at" to simply lay down and die because they had invaded your terriroty and now feel bad about it? I
97 OA260 : Would you expect to the Palestinians to lay down and die if they had wiped out your family?? Very true. Israel should have the air space they control
98 Par13del : Guess you missed the scenario I painted. Next time I will write a long post adding other things to the poster comment - Nav20 - to ensure that I spec
99 NAV20 : Tends to happen, Par13del. Got shot at by a German farmer once. I was only a 'territorial,' a reservist; but we'd run off the track we were supposed
100 Par13del : That my friend is what everyone hope, dreams and prays for, but we also would be remiss if we pretend that type of environment exist today, we have j
101 Post contains links NAV20 : Looks like this 'human shield' stuff cuts both ways:- "METHODS used by the Israel Defence Forces in their recent assault on Gaza have raised questions
102 OA260 : Oh yes it will all come out in the end . Bit by bit but it will all add up .
103 Par13del : Guess you missed the tying persons to jeeps and other such activities during the first intifada. You highlight one of the problems with this conflict
104 OA260 : Aid agencies have advised they need 500 tucks a day to cross to meet the humanitarian crisis but Israel is restricting the movement of food aid and li
105 Post contains links OA260 : UN seeks massive aid for Gaza, US wants border open The Palestinians of Gaza urgently need hundreds of millions of dollars for food and repairs, the U
106 EZEIZA : Of course this is only because the UN is biased It's positive to hear the US asking for humanitarian aid to go through ... let's see what happens, bu
107 Post contains links EZEIZA : Besides the constant breaking of the cease fire, there are some interesting reports far away from the actual conflict area. In Argentina, there had be
108 Dtwclipper : Typical of what?
109 RussianJet : The press to twist events into something they are not?
110 Oa260 : Yes thats how I took it also .
111 Post contains links Oa260 : Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has stormed off the stage at the World Economic Forum in Davos after an argument with Israel's president.
112 EZEIZA : exactly as Oa260 and Russianjet put it; typical twisting of things to be able to use the racist, antisemite cards. How many protests were there aroun
113 JFK69 : Don't think this was the right stage to produce an argument over what is going on in Gaza.
114 Oa260 : No but it is very significant as Israel has always enjoyed a good relationship with Turkey and relied on them in the past. Its one of the few Muslim
115 RussianJet : It is indeed very significant, and regardless of whether Davos can be considered the appropriate forum for such a debate to take place, the Turkish P
116 Dtwclipper : Exactly, an economic forum is not the place for such discussions. The moderator did his job correctly in cutting of the discussion and returning to t
117 RussianJet : How did he do his job correctly in only cutting off one speaker but not another? If he had halted the entire discussion to begin with, that would be
118 SOBHI51 : It was when Mr.Peres was defending Israel actions.But not appropriate when Mr. Erdogan was expressing his point of view?Typical.
119 Dtwclipper : Yup, Israel got a free pass once again on the world stage. They were both wrong...which one is more wrong? According to your tag team, it is of cours
120 RussianJet : Pardon???? Jews??? The ISRAELI (not Jewish, Israeli - get the distinction please) PM was allowed to way pretty much everything he wanted to for 25 mi
121 Dtwclipper : ". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mounta
122 RussianJet : No patronising and no unfounded and offensive allegations of racism or anti-religious bigotry required here, thank you. We are having a discussion ab
123 Dtwclipper : You can't. There are all one in the same.
124 RussianJet : Oh but we can, it's just a shame that some here are unable to seperate the issues for what they are. Still others here have made a great deal of effo
125 Dtwclipper : Opinion. Great rationalization once again. I don't care if the Terrorist Apologists tolerate it or not, it is just the way many here come across. Thi
126 RussianJet : When someone clearly states their point of view, and what they are for, and what they are against, such as clearly saying that they deplore terrorism
127 Post contains links NAV20 : It will be interesting, to say the least, to see whether cases of this kind gather pace in the world's courts:- "MADRID, Jan 29 (Reuters) - Spain's Hi
128 Dtwclipper : Yup....pretty clear: "After hearing the news Ben-Eliezer said the decision was "outrageous", adding that "terror organisations are using the courts o
129 RussianJet : Except it's not Shehada or Hamas that is suing. Seems you missed out this part: Is it ok to kill civilians? I am guessing you think it isn't, given t
130 NAV20 : No reason why not, Dtwclipper - except, of course, for the fact that the guy who allegedly killed them (and presumably his family) are dead. In any c
131 EZEIZA : And when there is nothing else to say, the racism card comes out once again. Honestly, after 12 threads, I did not expect this. No one here has said
132 Post contains links Baroque : One of the charges against Hicks was fighting for the Taliban. The US Leaving aside the question of balance and bias, let us go back to where I comme
133 Post contains links OA260 : Israel bans Arab parties from running in upcoming elections http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054867.html Its time for everyone to take the Rose p
134 SOBHI51 : Where did i mention anything about Jews?Can we not criticize anything that Israel does without anybody immediately take it as an anti Jewish attack?
135 OA260 : Very true. That card is well worn out.
136 RussianJet : That's some nice context manipulation. I didn't make that statement. What I in fact said was:
137 Mortyman : The the organzer should have stopped Shimon Peres 25 minute ( ! ) speach on the subject. Tne Turkish PM did'nt even get 2 minutes.... Besides, the to
138 OA260 : Quite true. It should have been equal time for both.
139 EZEIZA : naturally your statements are notoriously anti semite, you do realize that, right?
140 Pilotaydin : I agree with nite....this will never end... and the reason why it will never end in my world is this: there is no raw evidence of who did what...so th
141 Post contains links NAV20 : It may take a while, Pilotaydin - but there's no doubt that - like all human quarrels - it can, and will, end some day. But only when people (particu
142 Post contains links and images ImperialEagle : Hamas is already showing their care and compassion for representing the Palestinian people by engaging Israel with peace "offerings".   http://www.jp
143 Post contains links ImperialEagle : Oh well, this seems to sum it up: http://www.theonion.com/content/news...israel_palestine_now_fighting_over
144 Post contains links Us330 : Kind of understandable when you consider that the country has basically been in a state of war since its founding, has been unfairly singled out and
145 RussianJet : "Masked Palestinian terrorists from Islamic Jihad place Kassam rockets before later firing them towards Israel on the outskirts of Gaza City."
146 Raffik : Really saddening with all those Palestinians dead, especially the 400 kids. Where else in the world would you be able to get away with genocide of thi
147 NAV20 : Us330, please think that through? To my mind, they have only been in a 'state of war' because:- 1. They carried out a 'UDI' (unilateral declaration o
148 Post contains links RussianJet : So, it seems that a policy of reprisals is now official Israeli policy. "Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has vowed a "disproportionate" response to
149 Par13del : You assume that to be what, the Prime minister said that they would not return to the tit for tat operations of the past, the option exist for him to
150 RussianJet : I assume nothing. He said: "We've said that if there is rocket fire against the south of the country, there will be a disproportionate Israeli respon
151 Par13del : Disproportionate response could be fully opening the border, asking the UN and other international aid agencies to threaten to pull out if the attacks
152 Post contains links Us330 : What I was referring to (and my apologies for not being specific), were several resolutions in the U.N. that specifically condemned Israel, while ign
153 Cedars747 : I wonder how Israel can enjoy life after the massacre of Gaza.One al-kassam rocket on Israel is equal to one children life from Gaza............that i
154 NAV20 : That sounds as if you're suffering from some sort of vicarious persecution complex on Israel's behalf, Us330. And (judging by the site you linked to)
155 Us330 : With all due respect to Sir Montague, he couldn't have been more incorrect on this matter--my own grandfather, who was born and lived in Kiev until h
156 Baroque : One of the charges against Hicks was fighting for the Taliban. The US[/quote] However undoing about 1920 years is not problem at all???? Care to prese
157 SOBHI51 : With the exception of Iran both Lybia and Syria are also Semitic so how can they be anti Semitic?You are mixing up Semites and Zionism.
158 Baroque : Mmmm. I nearly posted last night to wonder how self-hating they supposed you guys to be!! Then again, perhaps you guys all appeared about 1949 with t
159 NAV20 : I'm afraid that you have that back to front, Us330. 'The Pale' was instituted by Catherine the Great and perpetuated by the Czars. One of the first a
160 Post contains links Baroque : .......... There are all too many post middle ages examples, but it does have origins in the dim distant past. What does seem certain is that excepti
161 Us330 : No. Let me rephrase it, then, anti-Jewish, not anti-Semitic. Even though that anti-Semitism is an accepted synonym for anti-Jewish (and recognized by
162 Post contains links Baroque : We can agree on that. Unscrambling a 50 year old egg would be difficult. But just as Jews have had some sort of accommodation post WWII, it is vital
163 NAV20 : That probably encapsulates where we diifer, Us 330. I'm not basically anti-ANYONE.... However, as someone who (given tne fact that I was once a muske
164 Us330 : That is true, but, from my vantage point, for any feasible accomodation to work out, they need to drop the the anti-Jewish, anti-Israel rhetoric. I t
165 SOBHI51 : I feel there something missing here. I am an Arab and a Muslim,i can say for sure that i am not anti-Jew.I leaved in the States for over 20 years and
166 Post contains links NAV20 : It doesn't appear to matter who they elect - judging by this idiotic proposal, even the so-called 'moderates' are raving mad:- "Defense Minister Ehud
167 Us330 : Unfortunately, the two articles on "Jews in Syria" and "Jews in Egypt" on wikipedia paint a very different picture than the one you describe--bombing
168 Par13del : As a start, I'll settle for Hamas changing their charter, rather them in charge of Gaza than a bunch of other militia leaders who cannot control thei
169 RussianJet : That is indeed one of the very stupidest plans I have heard in a long time.....
170 Post contains images NAV20 : As I get older, Russianjet, I increasingly feel a sense of 'deja vu' - sort of, "Been there, seen that....." I know only too well that that can make
171 Baroque : And vice versa would seem appropriate. Indeed the Jewish communities lived in peace but the angst between them appears to have started with the post
172 Par13del : Missing something, are you arguing which came first, the chicken or the egg? If thats the case I'll rephrase my post. I'll settle for Hamas changing
173 NAV20 : [quote=Par13del,reply=172]As an expert, I think you need to also address the fundamental differences in the two situations. Like the UK, Gaza is physi
174 Post contains images NAV20 : In 'professional' terms, Par13del, the only 'difference' is that upwards of 20M. people p.a. could have been expected to use a 'successful' Chunnel..
175 Baroque : No we agree, I was just pointing out that Israel might have found it easier to get an agreement pre-Hamas or at the least pre-Hamas becoming dominant
176 Par13del : Well you may be one up on me with this one, but AFAIK, Hamas still mandates the destruction of the Jewish State - do they even mention Israel? - that
177 Us330 : Exactly. Disagree--and it goes against all common sense. If Israel did have half a brain, they would help Hamas, because it would be a half-brained s
178 NAV20 : Who said anything about 'supporting' them, Us330? The simple fact is that Hamas has substantial political support, not just in Gaza but in the West B
179 Us330 : Baroque's statement, saying that "with half a brain, they would instead help put them up again." Acknowledging the other's existence is one thing (ne
180 Post contains links Baroque : Were I Israel, and I was going to take seriously the "I will huff and I will puff until I blow your house down" you could put at the top of the agend
181 Post contains links NAV20 : I rather think that the Rabin assassination supports my view rather than yours, Us330. It happened because he gave the 'appearance' of making concessi
182 Baroque : It seems that Dateline on SBS next week will contain an interview with Peres. The interviewer George Negus comments on radio that he finds Peres much
183 NAV20 : Northern Ireland must have looked that way too, early on. Crossing my fingers that if they don't start negotiating properly from now on, the most imp
184 Us330 : Yes Israel helped out Hamas in the beginning, but that's only because they viewed them as a lesser threat than the secular nationalists in the PLO--i
185 NAV20 : With respect, Us330, that's a considerable exaggeration of what I said - which was:- The fiction usually presented by Israeli politicians is that neg
186 Post contains links NAV20 : I recall expressing the opinion earlier on that 'unexploded ordnance' would eventually shed light on what sort of weapons were used by Israel in civil
187 Baroque : See where blind hatred gets you. Did anyone ever stop to analyse what the Soviets were really about by the 80s. Not on your nelly.
188 Beaucaire : To stay within the topic "Israel" and politics- Netanyahu is poised to become the next PM of Israel . he announced yesteraday to offer a "major" minis
189 Post contains links NAV20 : Good to see you back, Beaucaire! With my usual cross-grainedness, I almost see this possibility as a 'good thing.' I don't know how 'Jewish' Lieberma
190 Us330 : All of them--but in regards to the shebaa farms and golan heights, there would need to be a special deal where Lebanon and Syria agreed for a set num
191 Raffik : When has Lebanon ever built any military installations?! Israel should return the land that they illegally occupy and thus reduce animosity towards th
192 NAV20 : Great, Us330. Never doubted that you're a reasonable guy. But now please answer my second question?
193 Post contains links Baroque : Nor pretty much could the editor of Ha'aretz on a long interview on http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/ Unhappily in this wondrous new year, Lateline doe
194 Cedars747 : Israel is a wonderful state,but neighbor Lebanon is a terrorist state that violate the Israeli air space every day and responsible for the killing of
195 Raffik : Well said Alex! It certainly puts things into context
196 SOBHI51 : Very strange Alex.Now i know that i was reading the newspapers without eye glasses.I got mixed up who is attacking who.Will visit an ophthalmologist s
197 Beaucaire : Thanks for the kind message,NAV20- -i'll have to keep my messages rather under control otherwise my next ban might be the final end definite one.. Th
198 Cedars747 : Thank you Raffik Israel attacking? no Sobhi never,it's self defense Alex!!!
199 Us330 : Who the hell knows--with Likud about to take power, I have a feeling that the only offer that will be coming for the Palestinians will, at best, be a
200 Post contains links Oa260 : Israel Rapped Over Gaza Supplies 2:13pm UK, Thursday February 05, 2009 Dominic Waghorn, Middle East Correspondent Israel is being urged to explain why
201 Post contains links Us330 : Hamas taking supplies from the U.N., at gunpoint. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/05/wo...east/05mideast.html?_r=1&ref=world
202 Baroque : The Vodcast is now at UNDER WATCH PROGRAM Akiva Elder starts about 11.30 but there are about 4 minutes of preliminary material about Israeli politics
203 Post contains links OA260 : A new Museum is to be built in memory of all the innocent civilians who were killed by the Israeli bombings :: http://www.islamonline.net/English/In_D
204 Post contains links Baroque : Excellent. How about not even selective quotations from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Lieberman ??? But what would that prove? It would prove t
205 Post contains links AGM100 : No operating sewage or water and waiting for UN aid packages... but lets get right on the museum! .. sweet. Better check our stimulus bill... probabl
206 EDKA : exactly there seems to be way too many of so called "sad cases".. they don't even pretend to write "death to Israelies", which, according by today's
207 Post contains links Oa260 : Is there any left in it for this also ??? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7800397.stm Cash crisis threat to Auschwitz
208 AGM100 : [quote=Oa260,reply=208]Is there any left in it for this also ???[/quotI When we see Israeli rail cars caring Palestinians to gas chambers and cremator
209 Post contains links Us330 : Yeah, but seems like the sentiments of the "majority opinion" for the pro-Palestinian side appear to be far more radical than the sentiments of the "
210 Par13del : I believe that all Israel really believes that Sheba, the Golan and the West Bank have to be returned, the big sticking point will be Jerusalem, I be
211 NAV20 : Entirely agree, Par13del. Putting it all together, there would appear to be fair prospects for some sort of peace deal with Syria and Lebanon - but v
212 Post contains links Baroque : To what end, but to humour you, you could try: http://aidanmaconachyblog.blogspot.c...inate-extremist-zionist-views.html Which comments: The Israeli
213 Post contains links RussianJet : Exactly! It is astonishing that so many people seem to think that extreme, racist or otherwise outrageous views and positions only exist on one side
214 Baroque : Very "cheerful". They really should do something about that virulent anti-semitism over there. It is race based hatred you know.
215 EDKA : of course there are extreme elements on both sides (of any conflict) and of course both sides are at fault here. i have never claimed anything differ
216 RussianJet : I don't believe that I for one ever suggested there was not such a bias in the Arab mass media. However, I also believe that bias exists to a large e
217 Baroque : AFAIK you were not quoting the Arab mass media. Please enlighten.
218 EDKA : i was referring to the conversation of last night, see my comment 206 to be honest, this conversation probably deserves a separate thread
219 SOBHI51 : Or no threat at all.We all agree that both parties have extremists among them.As for Islam on line well consider the Islamic population and the Jewis
220 Post contains links Dtwclipper : London gallery shows anti-Semitism in Arab media An exhibition documenting the widespread use of anti-Semitic cartoons in the Arab press opened in Lo
221 Post contains links Us330 : Well he was. Here are a couple of more links in support. Article in the San Diego Union Tribune, reprinted on the ADL website, with specific referenc
222 Post contains links NAV20 : Surely the situation is exactly the reverse of that? That the conduct of the State of Israel has caused a revival of anti-semitism? And it is certain
223 Post contains links Dtwclipper : No, I don't believe so. It been ever present, and just below the surface. This is my opinion, so there really is no need to comment on it any further
224 Us330 : I agree--that's not to say that anti-Semitism is as rampant today as it once was years ago--the world has definitely improved--but there is a conside
225 NAV20 : Suffice it to say, then, Dtwclipper, that most people don't share your opinion. Not even many prominent Jews. I suspect that that is the root cause o
226 Dtwclipper : No, this is the predominate opinion. As my father was the head of the Detroit Jewish Community I think that I can speak of prominent Jews.
227 Post contains links Baroque : So why: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstrac...DD113AE733A2575BC0A9649D94649
228 HB-IWC : This discussion and its 12 installments have run its course. Yet again, there have been plenty of personal exchanges, and the time has come to put thi
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