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Clinton Names Envoy To Handle Climate Change  
User currently offlineWindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2690 posts, RR: 8
Posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5165 times:

Todd Stern, a former White House assistant who was the chief U.S. negotiator at the Kyoto Protocol, will head up the international negotiations to fend off global warming.

"American leadership is essential to meeting the challenges of the 21st century, and chief among those is the complex, urgent and global threat of climate change," she said at a State Department ceremony held shortly after President Barack Obama announced new policies to allow states greater latitude in limiting greenhouse gas emissions.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/firs...names-envoy-handle-climate-change/


This one is really a waste of our tax dollars at at a time that we cannot afford to do so. The planet has been cooling for eight years and Arctic ice levels are back to 1979 levels. More and more scientists, climatologist and meteorologist come out every week and tell what a scam it is.

The Obama team will soon be trying to tax the gas going into and out of our cars creating a double sin tax. Carbon credit scams will not be far behind. Luckily most Americans have not fallen for this trap and will fight back on this attempt to destroy our industry as well as anything to do with oil. The latest pew poll showed the environment and global warming ranked last among things that our government and King Obama should be concerned about.


OMG-Obama Must Go
182 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8711 posts, RR: 24
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5151 times:



Quoting Windy95 (Thread starter):
This one is really a waste of our tax dollars at at a time that we cannot afford to do so. The planet has been cooling for eight years and Arctic ice levels are back to 1979 levels. More and more scientists, climatologist and meteorologist come out every week and tell what a scam it is.

But, but, but Al Gore swears it's true...

Global Warming will go down as the biggest scam in history.




Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineWellHung From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5136 times:



Quoting Windy95 (Thread starter):
Clinton Names Envoy To Handle Climate Change

Sounds like your disappointed she didn't appoint an oil man to the position.

And the title of the thread suggests the thread is about her appointment. Yet on closer inspection, it's is just more whinobabble.

Quoting Windy95 (Thread starter):
The planet has been cooling for eight years

Show everyone the data to support this: http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/ncdc.html

Quoting Windy95 (Thread starter):
Arctic ice levels are back to 1979 levels.

Provide your source.

Quoting Windy95 (Thread starter):
More and more scientists, climatologist and meteorologist come out every week and tell what a scam it is

Like who?

Quoting Windy95 (Thread starter):
King Obama

 hissyfit 


User currently onlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2014 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5125 times:



Quoting WellHung (Reply 2):

Provide your source.

Forget it, these people always have sources. They'll link you to some dubious website and if all else fails, they'll give you "but it's really cold in Minnesota right now" as a credible source.

From how I see it, the time of debate is over. Not meaning to be rude, but there is enough evidence out there that something big is happening to our climate. This is a point at which to leave those who still don't want to accept the evidence behind, and to act without them.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineWunalaYann From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 26
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5125 times:



Quoting Windy95 (Thread starter):

If it were an envoy to handle "pollutions" instead of "climate change", would you also oppose it?

I am all in favour of dropping the non-consensual climate change rhetoric if it helps appease the debate and focus on issues we can all agree on - pollution. Pollution of air, water and soils. Depletion of natural resources such as tropical forests, hydrocarbons, ecosystems or minerals.

If the IPCC is correct, climate change is a direct consequence of such pollutions. So wouldn't we kill two birds with one stone by focusing on pollution (which has been scientifically measured for decades) instead of politically sensitive "climate change"?

 Smile


User currently offlineCALTECH From Poland, joined May 2007, 2013 posts, RR: 27
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 5104 times:



Quoting Windy95 (Thread starter):
President Barack Obama announced new policies

Remember, he only has 4 years to save the planet, from man-made global warming, or is it global warming, or has it become climate change, or is it just plain old weather ? Whether he will save us from weather, that's another story.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
But, but, but Al Gore swears it's true...

Global Warming will go down as the biggest scam in history.

 checkmark 

False cult, false religion.

Maybe they should look at NOAA data again.

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2009/20090108_decemberstats.html

"NOAA: 2008 Temperature for U.S. Near Average, was Coldest Since 1997; Below Average for December"

But that is a dubious website, according to some, because NOAA does get it wrong.



UNITED We Stand
User currently onlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2014 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 5096 times:



Quoting CALTECH (Reply 6):

Maybe they should look at NOAA data again.

You're looking at the United States data, mate. It's called "global" warming, and the globe doesn't consist of the United States alone.

Since you consider NOAA reliable, help yourself to their global summary of 2008: http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/research/2008/ann/global.html.

Where you'll read that 2008 was the eighth-warmest year since the beginning of climate records, and that the earth is currently warming with a rate of approximately 0.16°C/decade.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18714 posts, RR: 58
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 5060 times:



Quoting Windy95 (Thread starter):
This one is really a waste of our tax dollars at at a time that we cannot afford to do so. The planet has been cooling for eight years and Arctic ice levels are back to 1979 levels.

Source?


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 7955 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 5052 times:



Quoting Windy95 (Thread starter):
The latest pew poll showed the environment and global warming ranked last among things that our government and King Obama should be concerned about.

That's pretty funny considering the bulk of the US population is constituted on the Atlantic and Gulf Coast seaboards. Whether caused by man or not, indications are that sea levels are rising and at an accelerated rate. You're proposing we, what, wait until it's time to relocate our coastal cities before the next batch of tropical cyclones or nor'easters hit? That could be only decades away for all we know.

http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/sealevel.html



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6676 posts, RR: 35
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5032 times:

I envy this guy….I would love to have a high-ranking government appointment that requires nothing but busy work and bullshit.

This is classic—what a lucky guy he is. Damn, I need a gig like this!!

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
Global Warming will go down as the biggest scam in history.

Precisely. The rest of the world is finally waking up to this…thank God!


User currently offlineSv7887 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1025 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 5018 times:

I don't think the debate should be stopped at all...

Interesting article on the subject from a Canadian website:

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Columnists/1101704.html

"CAN we all agree – yet – that the issue is settled?

Scientists DON’T all agree the planet is warming precipitously, or that humans are responsible for that supposed warming. In fact, more and more experts in a number of fields have been speaking up to challenge the supposed scientific "consensus" on climate change.

As the headlines scream out the latest sensational warning – a NASA scientist now predicts U.S. President-elect Barack Obama has just four years to save the planet – let’s not forget that last month, more than 650 international scientists went on record as dissenting from the man-made global warming findings of the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC)."


Who are these scientists?

The list, which grew by a substantial 250 new names from a similar statement in late 2007, includes prominent names in fields ranging from geology, atmospheric science and solar physics to meteorology, oceanography and paleoclimatology. According to the U.S. Senate’s environment and public works committee minority report, released Dec. 10, the skeptics also include many current and former IPCC scientists.



User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8711 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5015 times:



Quoting Slider (Reply 9):
I envy this guy….I would love to have a high-ranking government appointment that requires nothing but busy work and bullshit.

The latest scam attempt: despite measurements showing an historic increase in Antarctic sea ice by the sophisticated instruments scientists assured us would prove the ice was melting, a new study comes out insisting that temperatures on the frozen continent are rising after all. But since there are not enough actual weather stations on the continent to provide the data necessary for a valid analysis, scientists conducting the study relied on another of those pesky computer models which thus far have been the only tool which continues to support the alarmist view that the earth is warming and it’s all man’s fault.

Despite the hot air, the Antarctic is not warming up
A deeply flawed new report will be cited ad nauseam by everyone from the BBC to Al Gore
By Christopher Booker
The Telegraph
25 Jan 2009

…One of the first to express astonishment was Dr Kevin Trenberth, a senior scientist with the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) and a convinced believer in global warming, who wryly observed “it is hard to make data where none exists”. A disbelieving Ross Hayes, an atmospheric scientist who has often visited the Antarctic for Nasa, sent Professor Steig a caustic email ending: “with statistics you can make numbers go to any conclusion you want. It saddens me to see members of the scientific community do this for media coverage.”

But it was also noticed that among the members of Steig’s team was Michael Mann, author of the “hockey stick”, the most celebrated of all attempts by the warmists to rewrite the scientific evidence to promote their cause. The greatest of all embarrassments for the believers in man-made global warming was the well-established fact that the world was significantly warmer in the Middle Ages than it is now. “We must get rid of the Mediaeval Warm Period,” as one contributor to the IPCC famously said in an unguarded moment. It was Dr Mann who duly obliged by getting his computer-model to produce a graph shaped like hockey stick, eliminating the mediaeval warming and showing recent temperatures curving up to an unprecedented high.

This instantly became the warmists’ chief icon, made the centrepiece of the IPCC’s 2001 report. But Mann’s selective use of data and the flaws in his computer model were then so devastatingly torn apart that it has become the most comprehensively discredited artefact in the history of science.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineWunalaYann From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 26
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5011 times:

May I reiterate, then?

Should we not focus on pollution instead of "global warming", considering the former has been measured for decades, its adverse effects on health and the economy largely documented, and that it would take care of "global warming" if it existed?

Or is pollution considered a scam as well?


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8711 posts, RR: 24
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5007 times:



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 12):
Should we not focus on pollution instead of "global warming", considering the former has been measured for decades,

No problem with that. I am all for reducing pollution in every way possible, and am willing to pay a little bit more for things to accomplish that.

But don't feed me the horsesh&t about global warming. It's an insult.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineYellowstone From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3071 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5006 times:



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 12):
Should we not focus on pollution instead of "global warming", considering the former has been measured for decades, its adverse effects on health and the economy largely documented, and that it would take care of "global warming" if it existed?

That idea, while having some merit, would only be truly effective if we defined carbon dioxide as a pollutant, which the anti-anthropogenic climate change types would resist tooth and nail. You can put all the scrubbers you want on a smokestack at a coal plant, and it will still be putting out massive amounts of CO2.



Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
User currently offlineWunalaYann From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 26
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5003 times:



Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 14):

Actually, I believe that pollutants include many more substances than just CO2. SO2, NO2, NOx, HC, CO, lead (just showing that I do not know my Mendeleev table by heart), etc. are all severe pollutants, and their effects on health and ecosystems can be much more detrimental than that of CO2.

That is why the term "carbon tax" irks me a bit. I believe that there should be "environmental pricing" that would encompass all pollutions and degradations of amenities, not just CO2 being "taxed".

As for your legitimate concern regarding acceptance of environmental concerns among certain sections of the electorate, try as I might, I cannot find any serious controversy or scientific dispute regarding the negative effects of pollution on health and the economy. And as some anti-global warming posters have indicated in this thread, they are not opposed to reducing pollution and preserving the environment.

Therefore I think that removing "global warming" from political stances and focusing on pollution could achieve everyone's goal much more easily, and in a much more appeased fashion.

 Smile


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8711 posts, RR: 24
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5003 times:



Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 14):
That idea, while having some merit, would only be truly effective if we defined carbon dioxide as a pollutant,

Now that's just stupid. Carbon Dioxide is as much a pollutant as Oxygen is. It is a by-product of animal life, just as Oxygen is a by-product of plant life. It's part of the natural cycle.

Pollution is the introduction of contaminants into an environment that causes instability, disorder, harm or discomfort to the physical systems or living organisms (Webster). As part of the natural cycle, Carbon Dioxide does not qualify. CFCs, plastic waste, etc. does.

Your idea of saying "OK, forget global warming, let's go for pollution, but let's classify CO2 as a pollutant" is just another scam.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6676 posts, RR: 35
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5000 times:



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 15):
Therefore I think that removing "global warming" from political stances and focusing on pollution could achieve everyone's goal much more easily, and in a much more appeased fashion.

No offense, but WTF do you think the Westernized World has been doing for the past 30 years? Our industrial cities have never been cleaner since the Industrial Revolution, cars have never polluted as little, we have environmental controls, our smokestacks, energy production and use of alternate energy has increased, so it's a very vapid statement to say we haven't focused on 'pollution'....

Go kick India and China's asses if you want.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
Your idea of saying "OK, forget global warming, let's go for pollution, but let's classify CO2 as a pollutant" is just another scam.

Good point...especially since it's, oh yeah, ELEMENTAL!


User currently offlineWunalaYann From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 26
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4998 times:



Quoting Slider (Reply 17):

I fail to see where in my post I have said, or even implied that we have not done anything, or that the issue is limited to Western nations.

You raise valid points, but I just do not see how they contradict my own statements.

I still believe that the road towards a non-polluting, environmentally neutral society is long, regardless of how good work has already been tone. And I also think that we will eventually get there.

As for China and India, they have to deal with 21st century environmental concerns, and 20th century development needs. They will have to combine the two, but that does not relieve us of the burden of continuing to work, and work harder to make our economies cleaner.


User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6676 posts, RR: 35
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4993 times:



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 18):
You raise valid points, but I just do not see how they contradict my own statements.

OK, good post. I can understand that. Perhaps I misunderstood that you were implying that by simply saying we should focus on pollution you were oversimplfying the issue.

We've made great strides in every facet and yet the hysteria is greater now than when we had disastrous environmental policies.


User currently offlineWunalaYann From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 26
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4991 times:



Quoting Slider (Reply 19):

No worries.  Smile

Now let's zoom past the hysteria and get to work.


User currently offlineYellowstone From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3071 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks ago) and read 4979 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
Now that's just stupid. Carbon Dioxide is as much a pollutant as Oxygen is. It is a by-product of animal life, just as Oxygen is a by-product of plant life. It's part of the natural cycle.

But carbon dioxide in excess, just like anything else, poses a problem. Take oxygen, for example - we're quite used to it now, but 2.7 billion years ago it was responsible for killing off a good amount of life on earth, when bacteria first evolved the capacity for photosynthesis that produces oxygen. The excess oxygen in the atmosphere wreaked havoc on formerly anaerobic ecosystems, until new lifeforms evolved. I agree that calling carbon dioxide a pollutant is perhaps a bit exaggerated, but nevertheless it does have the ability to harm humanity if we go pumping massive amounts of it into the atmosphere.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 15):
That is why the term "carbon tax" irks me a bit. I believe that there should be "environmental pricing" that would encompass all pollutions and degradations of amenities, not just CO2 being "taxed".

Agreed. Prices of goods should reflect their true cost of production, including externalities.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 15):
Actually, I believe that pollutants include many more substances than just CO2. SO2, NO2, NOx, HC, CO, lead (just showing that I do not know my Mendeleev table by heart), etc. are all severe pollutants, and their effects on health and ecosystems can be much more detrimental than that of CO2.

Pound for pound, there are indeed many substances much worse than CO2; even if we restrict the discussion to global warming, CFC's are much more potent greenhouse gases. But we generate so much more CO2 than any of the other substances you list that it becomes a significant threat.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 15):
And as some anti-global warming posters have indicated in this thread, they are not opposed to reducing pollution and preserving the environment.

I appreciate their environmental sympathies, but if they won't address the global warming question they are missing one of the most important environmental concerns. One key example of where this could be problematic is the "clean coal" debate. I agree that coal plants, if they must exist, should become cleaner and reduce particulate and SO2 emissions. However, even if you remove all of those pollutants, you haven't changed the fact that coal, atom for atom, produces more CO2 than any other fossil fuel, and that CO2 has to go somewhere.



Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks ago) and read 4976 times:

Oh can we just keep calling it "GLOBAL WARMING" ... I don't like the "new" title ... "Climate Change ".


You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineYellowstone From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3071 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks ago) and read 4970 times:



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 22):
Oh can we just keep calling it "GLOBAL WARMING" ... I don't like the "new" title ... "Climate Change ".

We can go back to calling it global warming when the antis stop saying "it's ten degrees outside here today where's your global warming now hurr hurr hurr." The idea that an overall global increase in temperature could manifest itself in different ways in different places seems to go over the heads of some people.



Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 915 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 months 4 weeks ago) and read 4970 times:

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 15):
And as some anti-global warming posters have indicated in this thread, they are not opposed to reducing pollution and preserving the environment.

   There are indeed many legitimate environmental issues that threaten our standard of living in both developed and developing nations, yet ironically the pseudoscience global warming debate is what consumes the most attention and now resources.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 21):
But carbon dioxide in excess, just like anything else, poses a problem. I agree that calling carbon dioxide a pollutant is perhaps a bit exaggerated, but nevertheless it does have the ability to harm humanity if we go pumping massive amounts of it into the atmosphere.

What's laughable is that manmadeglobalwarming proponents (followers?) actually think there is an "optimal" level of atmospheric CO2 and that civilization is throwing the planet out of "equilibrium," as if there has ever been such a thing.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 21):
I appreciate their environmental sympathies, but if they won't address the global warming question they are missing one of the most important environmental concerns. One key example of where this could be problematic is the "clean coal" debate. I agree that coal plants, if they must exist, should become cleaner and reduce particulate and SO2 emissions. However, even if you remove all of those pollutants, you haven't changed the fact that coal, atom for atom, produces more CO2 than any other fossil fuel, and that CO2 has to go somewhere.

Oh please stop. The Earth warms and cools cyclically weather humans exist or not. It is a complete joke to say the Earth warming half a degree F in a century is one of the most important environmental concerns. A pressing environmental concern would be the fact 800 million people can't grow enough food to fully nourish themselves.

What ultimately matters is the standard of living of the 6.6+ billion humans that inhabit this environment and what it would mean if the global warming agenda gets its way and slams the brake on development. The point of civilization is to shape the world around us to suit our needs. The climate change caused by coal power is likely beyond our ability to quantify.

[Edited 2009-01-27 16:18:23]

25 Aaron747 : You have an astoundingly different concept of civilization from a lot of other people, I suspect.
26 DfwRevolution : So what's your concept then? The breakthroughs in human civilization have occurred when the technology was developed to overcome a challenge in our e
27 AGM100 : Its all a big mystery then ... but Gore knows the secret ? Look I am all for cleaner energy , more efficient industry and modernization. We in the US
28 Yellowstone : The amount that we have had for the past few hundred years has been working pretty well for us, so it seems reasonable to keep it around that point.
29 DfwRevolution : It's ultimately a matter completely out of our control. Geologic sources of CO2 exceed man-made output and they are beyond human means to control. We
30 Post contains links DfwRevolution : Here are some poignant snippets for the road: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/4...e-Antarctic-is-not-warming-up.html http://epw.senate.gov/public/i
31 Post contains links Windy95 : A good web site that covers this CO2 http://www.co2science.org/ Correct. But do not put CO2 into the pollution category. Green is good and keeping th
32 Post contains links and images Windy95 : When one takes into consideration that the cooling from the Mt. Pinatubo eruption and the warming from the 1997-98 El Nino event were not part of any
33 AverageUser : As for the Arctic cap, the extent busted last winter's already low levels this week, and is actually decreasing right now.
34 Post contains links and images Windy95 : The Artic Ice is decreasing? right now this week The Antartic is running above normal
35 Klaus : They don't, actually. They may temporarily peak above anthropogenic emissions during massive eruptions, but on average they are far lower than our ou
36 Slider : That’s precisely the thing that is at the heart of this argument…forget for a minute the overwhelming power of this planet that we don’t even c
37 Klaus : Exactly: The attempt of the deniers to erect elaborate constructions on a foundation that's simply made up.
38 Slider : Klaus, There is reason to DENY what cannot be factually proven. When are you going to face facts here buddy?
39 Post contains images Klaus : I don't know about your universe, but in mine we actually have a pretty good grasp on the larger situation; And as much as it may shock you, it is ac
40 Post contains links and images AverageUser : Yes sir, that's correct. From the National Snow & Ice Data Centre: [Edited 2009-01-29 01:49:04]
41 Post contains links Baroque : I was wondering where you were. Well documented as usual. I kept from boiling at the various terminological inexactitudes but at random I picked on D
42 Post contains links and images Windy95 : As the number of stations (often rural) has fallen the temperature has risen in an inverse relationship, suggesting the Urban Heat Island effect is t
43 Yellowstone : While I refuse to get dragged into an argument over the existence of global warming (the scientific community has made that argument far better than
44 Klaus : Sea ice is a completely different thing from the land-based ice masses. While the temperature of the circumantarctic ocean has indeed been slightly c
45 Post contains links Baroque : Elaborating on that mechanism: http://www.aussurvivalist.com/downloads/sea_level_faq.txt That West Antarctica can collapse much faster than Greenland
46 Post contains links Slider : Document then, Klaus. Show it. For every source you spew, I can find another just as credible that will refute it. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-d
47 DfwRevolution : Actually a great many in the field of climate studies are geologist. Geologic records are often cited as means to look into Earth's climate history.
48 DocLightning : So is universal gravitation and evolution. The reason for this is actually because rock is flexible and compressible. The ice cap at the pole can be
49 Baroque : Yes geological studies can be used to infer paleoclimate. That requires a specific suite of techniques. Gee in his field of expertise does not do wor
50 Post contains links and images Longhornmaniac : Not true. Although C3 plants constitute the majority of plant life, and can take some advantage of added CO2 levels, C4 plants constitute the vast ma
51 4holer : I was open to the idea of AGW, but I'm a big skeptic now. Not only is the "science" faulty, but the attacks on skeptics are disgusting. It is not sett
52 AverageUser : "Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." [Sir] Winston Churchill, 1942. If th
53 4holer : And if your most compelling argument is "Those who fail to comply with our determination are simply insane or stupid", then I'm content over here wit
54 AverageUser : I did not say anybody was stupid, merely the fact that your political ground is lost. You had your day, and that day was yesterday. The cavalry who w
55 Slider : Once you have evidence, let me know. Some random and non-repeatable climatalogical events. So far all we have is tantamount to anecdotal evidence and
56 Post contains links Longhornmaniac : Not true. 11 of the hottest 12 years on record are between 1995-2007. The only year not...1996. The hottest year on record: 2005 (although 1998 and 2
57 AverageUser : Since you said that, would you also say the past Bush era politics "equals no scientific fact" by that same logic?
58 Post contains links Windy95 : Seem's the Cav is making a comeback James Hansen’s Former NASA Supervisor Declares Himself a Skeptic Retired senior NASA atmospheric scientist Dr.
59 Post contains links Windy95 : Russian scientists deny that the Kyoto Protocol reflects a consensus view of the world scientific community Russian critics of the Kyoto Protocol, wh
60 Post contains links Windy95 : Are these the machine guun's that you are talking about? Dr. William M. Briggs, a climate statistician who serves on the American Meteorological Soci
61 IgneousRocks : Really? What about all of the alarmists and "so called experts" in 2005 who latched onto ONE hurricane season as proof that drastic and catastrophic
62 Post contains links Windy95 : And who actually conrtols what is put in the IPCC report? Bureaucrats?According to the Associated Press, during the IPCC Summary for Policymakers mee
63 AverageUser : Speaking of more mainstream media, Scientific American's special edition "Earth 3.0" (Vol 18, #5, 2008) has some interesting articles on different car
64 4holer : Trying to decipher what the heck you are asking gave me a headache, but let me take a crack at it. Scientific facts do not require any politician to
65 Post contains links Baroque : Nice posts, but it is even more difficult than taking to a post. http://www.elmwoodreclaimedtimber.com/wood.aspx?pgID=977 A bit like the Austin Chalk
66 AverageUser : So you would conclude the recent change of administration in the U.S. is a completely meaningless affair -- people would go on as if the Bush era sti
67 4holer : Gotcha. So the entire AGW agenda indeed is an anti-capitalism, anti-USA, pro-wealth redistribution invention that exists not in fact, but rather beca
68 Dreadnought : Why don't you apply that skepticism equally. Would you see, for example, how a scientist or a politician who jumps on the Global Warming bandwagon ca
69 AverageUser : Because I'm personally convinced by the evidence, and for once delighted that big money now seems to be agreeing with me more and more. You're puttin
70 Klaus : Laughable. The bulk of the scientific community of actual climatologists is publically employed and has little if anything to gain from a distortion
71 Slider : Isn’t that what the opposition has done? They don’t look back to ice age data, they haven’t discussed what the patterns of ice cores in Greenla
72 AverageUser : You're not by any chance talking about the Cold War, are you?
73 Post contains links Dreadnought : You mean like NASA's James Hansen (one of the most influencial global warming buffs), whose former boss called him"an embarassment to NASA"? James Ha
74 Klaus : Vast conspiracies are very difficult to conduct and maintain in a scientific field which will with almost certainty expose such an attempt sooner or
75 4holer : We're talking about two different things. I'm talking about whether or not manmade sources of carbon dioxide are changing the global climate towards
76 Klaus : You are talking as if there was actually a choice to proceed as we've done in past decades. That "choice" just doesn't exist. We need to switch to ot
77 Slider : Spot on. That’s why I’ve referred to them as envirocultists, because it is a fanatical obsession that is cult-like in its reach. You nailed it. W
78 Klaus : Or they simply look at the data, compare it to the theories available and choose the theory which matches it best. And as long as for some strange re
79 Post contains links Slider : http://planetgore.nationalreview.com...M3ZWM1ODVmNWI0MWE3ZmI3YzdhNmE4NjE= Like more of the facts that refute Algore?
80 Klaus : No facts relating to the issue in there, maybe other than significant portions of the US population still being hoodwinked by the paid shills of the
81 Longhornmaniac : And with all due respect to them, having written a paper on that very subject just last year, they were wrong. There is a POSSIBILITY that it could b
82 AverageUser : No, I'm saying there's been a (much delayed) paradigm shift in minds of the opinion formers, and media owners whom, as you might recall, I say are th
83 N229NW : Too true, like that whole "round-earth" cult!!!! What a lot of Exactly, they're also finally waking up to realize that 9/11 was an inside job and tha
84 Longhornmaniac : Ignorance is bliss. Cheers, Cameron
85 Post contains links Windy95 : Even left now laughing at Global Warming "So-called "global warming" has shrunk from problem to punch line. And now, Leftists are laughing, too. It's
86 Post contains links Baroque : Well just for you, he ain't a Geophysicist, he is a Geochemist. And Wiki opines: Allègre, who is not a climatologist, thinks that the causes of clim
87 Windy95 : Signed Al Gore
88 Post contains links Windy95 : So are the climate models wrong or are Dr (hockeystick) Mann and these alarmists wrong? But it was also noticed that among the members of Steig’s t
89 CALTECH : The one side has brought more politics into this, and we know how trustworthy most politicians are, they never lie, right ? Shouldn't allow politicia
90 Post contains links Baroque : At last. However, there is no presentation of his arguments in that link. Meanwhile his latest papers on Climate Change appear to be de Freitas, C.R.
91 Post contains links Windy95 : More ignorant scientist Half of all warming since 1900 is due to sun say Duke University and US Army researchers . The rest is poor global data. Nico
92 Klaus : That idea has since shown to be inconsistent with observations.
93 Post contains links Dreadnought : LOL, that's what everyone's been saying! Look, global warming has become a lucrative business as well as fashionable. You have the people who make a
94 Baroque : " target=_blank>http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...4.ece Meanwhile we look forward to your explanations of the location and strength of the baric
95 Dreadnought : As soon as I receive you reasons why we here have been experiencing one of the coldest winters on record, right after last year which was also bloody
96 Klaus : local weather ≠ global climate. If you even confuse these two, what are you doing in this discussion?
97 CALTECH : Great posts, shows that these global warming types are pushing a hoax on the rest of the world. All time record low temperatures, the Earth and Sun (
98 Klaus : And the worldwide glaciers are just taking a holiday on their home planet, right? They couldn't possibly be melting down at record rates in the presu
99 Dreadnought : they've been shrinking for over 200 years - far before industrial pollution, SUVs etc. And in recent years they've started growing again. Get it thro
100 Klaus : Both false. Global climate changes in cycles, indeed. We've just begun to rock the boat we're sitting in long before we might be equipped for one of
101 Post contains links AverageUser : Someone mentioned "a sad state of affairs" so let's echo that a bit: In 2006, a new record annual mass loss was measured on the reference glaciers un
102 Windy95 : Proof From the altar of the Global Warming Socialist. Your opinion is based on science. Right Another favorite from the Global Warming Bible. You are
103 Post contains images Windy95 : A Global Warming Rally The High Priest of Global Warming
104 Post contains links CALTECH : My 'home' planet is Earth and, There are 160,000 glaciers in the world Of those, only 200 have mass balance data for one year or more Of those, only
105 Post contains links Windy95 : Speaking of fudging the numbers. Our old pal Dr. (hockeystick) Mann is at it again. Major Error in Antarctic Warming Paper - Going Cold on Antarctic
106 Post contains links Windy95 : How did this man become head of a Climate Panel? Rajendra Kumar Pachauri (born August 20, 1940, Nainital, India) is an economist who has served as the
107 Rara : For the love of God, what is it with your obsession with the former vice president Gore? Mentions of "Gore" in this thread alone: Of nineteen (!) occu
108 Post contains images AverageUser : Some photographs by Gary Braasch: Mount Hood, Oregon, USA the Rhone glacier in Valais, Switzerland Portage Clacier, Alaska, USA
109 Baroque : Thanks AU. Saves a lot of words.
110 Post contains links AverageUser : You're most welcome! -- Here's a very good introductory lecture by John Holdren to "global climatic disruption" as he calls the phenomenon. Prof Hold
111 Windy95 : That proves it. Something melted so it must be caused my man You convinced me Do you think that that any of those Glaciers melted during the medieval
112 Windy95 : That was pretty funny. Climatic disruption. First Global warming does not fit the pattern( because it stopped). The we got climate change to hide tha
113 Longhornmaniac : Again, you can have your scattered scientists. I completely understand how science works, and there will be people who refute the findings of the con
114 Klaus : No, they didn't. Research has shown that the ice that's melting right now at record rates is several thousands of years old, not just a few hundred.
115 IgneousRocks : If there ever was a consensus its being steadily eroded away. They will be 'shouted down' and not be allowed to sit at the cool people's table in the
116 Longhornmaniac : Hardly. More and more evidence is coming out by the day that supports "the consensus." I've already explained why those with a like mindset to your o
117 Rara : That's amusing, I had just the opposite impression. I think one major problem of the denial crowd is that they're not actually making an argument. Th
118 WunalaYann : Now, now, Cameron, it is really not nice to have so much common sense, you know. I mean, really. Nothing to do with any particular contentious scient
119 Post contains links AverageUser : There now seems to be a succession of scientific advisers to the U.S. presidents that are "enviro left", at least according to this: "The US chief sc
120 Baroque : Oh good, at least you understand a part of what some photographs show. And what those photographs showed was that there are a number of glaciers that
121 IgneousRocks : There is no consensus no matter what you choose to believe. I understand perfectly well thank you very much. Well if there is dissenting opinions tha
122 Klaus : Wrong. There is a consensus among a majority of climatologists – and that majority still keeps growing. The list of those you choose to look at, pe
123 Longhornmaniac : Completely false. Look up what 'consensus' means. "A majority of opinion" or "General agreement or accord." It does not mean, ALL people are in agree
124 WunalaYann : More generally, I would like to thank the participants in this thread, across both sides of the argument, for making a serious effort to document thei
125 Post contains images AverageUser : I wonder if you remember this fellow? He was found in melting ice in the Alps at the height of 3200 meters at the Austrian-Italian border in September
126 Baroque : Ah but but but but but. Erm, special pleading, unusual glacier. Nothing to do with glacial retreat. Cannot trust the Swiss (or the Italians or Austri
127 Post contains images CALTECH : Well, let's see Mt. hood in 2009 Funny how the global warming hoaxsters leave out the info that hurts their cause.
128 Post contains links and images CALTECH : Mt Hood in the distance, Date Taken: 2009-01-20 http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Nor...ica/United_States/photo1022027.htm
129 Post contains links and images CALTECH : Or of glaciers advancing,..... Terminus of Tsaa Glacier in Icy Bay in July 2005. Photo by Chris Larsen, Geophysical Institute, UAF Terminus of Tsaa Gl
130 Longhornmaniac : Find me one place in this thread where anyone has said that every single glacier is retreating? The difference between your argument and ours is, pla
131 CALTECH : Cheers
132 Longhornmaniac : Care to explain further why I should put my foot in my mouth? I don't see anything I said that conflicts with anything AU said... Cheers, Cameron
133 Windy95 : That tells us that the glaciers retreated once before. And with no SUV's for the last five years. No No That has to be the dumbest argument I have se
134 Rara : Last five years that's by far too short a timespan to make any conclusive observations in regard to climate. How about 100 years - e.g. a timespan in
135 Baroque : Ah so now we know it still snows at Mt Hood in winter - assuming Mt H is about where I think it is. It is a bit difficult to work out where glaciers
136 AverageUser : That isolated fact most certainly does not. What we know for sure that in that particular location snow fell on the dead man's body in conditions bel
137 4holer : You can heckle, mock, and say "flat earth" all you want, but anecdotal accounts, flawed models and urban weather station reports do not convince me of
138 Post contains images Klaus : But carefully picking and choosing only the evidence you like obviously does. Science has to look at the entire data set available. And the theory wh
139 Slider : You may not give a crap about him, but he’s the poster child for the envirocultists—he’s their leader, their figurehead and since he’s been s
140 Windy95 : Well I agree with most of your statement. As for what they call global warming I think the CO2 angle being done is a sham. Do we effect the planet in
141 Post contains links CALTECH : Okay, I give up, where is it claimed so ? Please show where a claim was made that someone claimed every single glacier is retreating, I couldn't find
142 Baroque : Oh my god, next thing you will do is discover the principles of stratigraphy. Please send the eggs.
143 Rara : Please be my guest in "exposing" him all you like if you feel so inclined. However, there is an abundance of threads about US domestic politics on th
144 Post contains images Mayor : IIRC, hasn't the planet been "warming" since the end of the last ice age? If so, isn't "global warming" just part of a natural cycle and it seems to g
145 CALTECH : Natural cycle, the Sun has everything to do with the Earth being warm or cold.
146 Post contains images Klaus : No. Human civilization has largely been able to develop due to the remarkably stable conditions during the past several thousand years. We've kicked
147 Mayor : If it hasn't been "warming" why aren't we still under layers of ice?
148 AverageUser : One of the more famous persons suffering from this yet unnamed syndrome must be Jorma Ollila, who's a former CEO of Nokia and currently Chairman of S
149 Post contains links and images Klaus : The temperature swing between ice age and interglacial (warm period between ice ages) can be rather abrupt. Our current warm period which has allowed
150 Mayor : Odd......looking at your graphs, I can see very little difference in temps for at least the last 8000 years......hardly global warming. In fact, since
151 Post contains links and images Klaus : That's simply because human civilization has only very recently begun to burn massive amounts of fossil fuels and has only recently started to devast
152 Windy95 : For me where I live the local cause is the West Indian Manatees and Water Conservation. I live in the winter grounds of the manatee and am lucky enou
153 Windy95 : See below This is nothing more than window dressing to placate the enviros.
154 AverageUser : So how come these major firms have chosen to placate the enviros instead of people like you? Surely they're going to lose the shareholders' confidenc
155 Klaus : Warm period, relative to the ice age. Not rapidly warming period with the associated droughts and floodings. There have been localized climate change
156 Windy95 : Prove that one. Because we are not the sqeaky wheel that gets the oil. It is the Noisy protester that gets the PR not the millions of normal citizens
157 Windy95 : You have to love this graph. Is this based of Mann's Hockey stick graph? It is a total falsehood Well I anaswered my own question by looking at the s
158 Post contains links and images Windy95 : The University of California system, is preparing to spend $500 million [in taxpayer dollars] to create a think tank to analyze global warming and th
159 Post contains links and images Windy95 : More fun graphs See how well the temperatures match with the solar and ocean cycles The Atlantic is cooling too. The AMO has declined from its 2004/05
160 AverageUser : You will in other words keep fighting the capitalist system that has betrayed your anti-greenhouse cause no matter what, if I got that right?
161 Windy95 : No , I will keep fighting alarmist who have sold us a pile of steaming manure. As for XOM, ENI spa and Petrobas I will keep them in my holdings as lo
162 AverageUser : I wish you could bring yourself to not beating about the bushes -- so whenenever we see a stock corporation issuing something that contains anything
163 WunalaYann : If they allegedly lie to you regarding their environmental policies (please note that I am not talking about "global warming" or "climate change"), w
164 Baroque : Especially Shell having to revise their reserves in the direction of DOWN when they were in their denial phase. And all that when some are also convi
165 4holer : And THERE'S your agenda, ladies and gentlemen. Science, facts, history, none of it matters. Big oil needs to be put into its place. And this hysteria
166 4holer : I'd like the "believers" in AGW to read Bill Gray's letter to the AMS and comment here. I won't direct to a site, but you can pick your own by Googlin
167 Post contains links Windy95 : Speaking of revising the down direction Plunging price of carbon may threaten investment The price of carbon has lost almost two-thirds of its value i
168 AverageUser : Please remind me, was this Bill Gray the fellow who says it's all due to the sunspots or a lack of them?
169 WunalaYann : 4holer, Considering Baroque is one of the, if not THE poster who has contributed the largest amount of science and facts relating to anything "oil", y
170 Klaus : The only possible "proof" of this assessment (if any) is obviously in the observation of actual developments. If you say so, it must be true. That is
171 4holer : Technique 14(b): Always, ALWAYS attack the intelligence of the skeptics. You don't have to apply logic as long as part of your response frames your t
172 Klaus : If you feel your intelligence threatened then don't ascribe it to others. But Baroque has in fact provided information in various threads which makes
173 4holer : Fair enough. But what resides in the souls of the oil execs has absolutely nothing to do with the question of whether human caused CO2 release has a
174 AverageUser : Well a number of people have already pointed out to you that the Big Oil as you once knew it has already changed, with the times. Diversification is
175 4holer : My what? Dude, I wish! I, for the record, have no such investment or interest, other than outrage at Big Oil's profiteering over the past year. I jus
176 Post contains links AverageUser : We are. We are discussing the way energy companies are aware of AGW. Let's take BP, of which Wikipedia claims: BP plc, also known as British Petroleu
177 4holer : Easy. Because they want people like you to believe they are doing some great service. It's the same exercise in hollow rhetoric that the entire movem
178 AverageUser : Well in that case I insist you take a look on some of the other stuff the cat brought in. it seems BP have forgotten the folks coming from "the other
179 Baroque : Three points: 1. Who either wishes to, or thinks they can, bring big oil down? There might be alternatives to big oil, but noting that is not quite t
180 Post contains links Klaus : The article is here: Exxon to cut funding to climate change denial groups | Environment | guardian.co.uk Further quotes:
181 Post contains links Windy95 : "February 18, 2009 Satellite sensor errors cause data outage Sign up for the Arctic Sea Ice News RSS feed for automatic notification of analysis upda
182 Post contains links AverageUser : Yes I agree, that's a major loss. If you happened to read the whole story, these sensors can't be "realigned" once they're lost, and afaik, they are
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