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Just A Trip To Africa...  
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2048 times:

Partial yield of a safari organized by a distinguished gentlemen ….
His hunting trip cost the lives of more than twenty animals…
And we consider ourselves on the top of the evolution ??
While it is true that in certain areas in Southern Africa the elephant population can cause problems, the killing of Rhinos, Leopards and Hippo’s is organized crime .
If we can prosecute paedophiles in their country of residence, I think we also should prosecute killers of protected species..













Please respect animals - don't eat them...
23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineJpax From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1018 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2040 times:

The rhino picture really gets to me, even though it is dead, it looks sad.

User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17322 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2016 times:

I'll never understand hunting for trophies, but it always seems like banning it only makes it worse. Isn't there a scheme in place to pay a ton of money in order to shoot certain species? IE perhaps that guy paid $50,000 to shoot the lion for instance, and so on. The money, theoretically goes to the game reserve.


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineSpringbok747 From Australia, joined Nov 2004, 4387 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2010 times:

Understand the concept before describing it as 'organized crime'. Hunting legally generates revenue, which will go back into conservation, which will help the animals and the local people. Trophy hunters don't indiscriminately shoot everything and anything that moves, instead only old males past their prime are shot (they will have the biggest trophies, i.e. horns).
Even the BBC tends to agree with me on this:

Sport hunting produces significant income through hunting fees, safari costs (guides, accommodation, trophy fees, etc.) and this is reinvested into conservation programmes. Local people support it because it provides secure employment.

The result is that in Namibia, South Africa and Botswana, elephant populations are well-stocked and healthy, while incidences of poaching have been kept to low levels.

By contrast, Kenya takes a protectionist approach. Killing elephants is prohibited and the country steadfastly argues against international trade in ivory.

An unintended consequence is that poaching is encouraged because local people receive little added value from the elephants and, instead, see a local resource going to waste.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6091334.stm

But I guess you have already made up your mind about people like me, after all we're just 'indiscriminate killers'.  Yeah sure



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User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2002 times:



Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 4):
But I guess you have already made up your mind about people like me, after all we're just 'indiscriminate killers'.

I can very well distinguish between hunting for valid reasons ( like reducing over-population of certain species,hunting for food ..) and trophee hunting.The argument that the price paid for killing a Leopard helps to save other animals stinks,since most of the funds paid by trophee hunters does not end up helping protection societies but in the pockets of politicians.
The justified need to regulate species -failure to meet natural enemies like wolves,bears or Lynx in many parts of Europe ,does make hunting on non-protected species acceptable and needed.Not all vegtarians and animal protectors live on a green planet....
But who can justify the kill of a Rhino or leopard ???



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineQantasistheway From Australia, joined May 2008, 309 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1983 times:

The thing is that this guy is so fat and old that if he were to actually come up against anyone of the animals he would have no chance in the world to survive. Instead he is cruising around in a land rover just waiting to shoot an unsuspecting animal. If it were fair then at least morally it would be a bit better.

User currently offlineKFLLCFII From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3296 posts, RR: 30
Reply 6, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1974 times:

My thoughts?

Nice gun.  thumbsup 



"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
User currently offlineSpringbok747 From Australia, joined Nov 2004, 4387 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1958 times:



Quoting Qantasistheway (Reply 5):
The thing is that this guy is so fat and old that if he were to actually come up against anyone of the animals he would have no chance in the world to survive. Instead he is cruising around in a land rover just waiting to shoot an unsuspecting animal. If it were fair then at least morally it would be a bit better.

Is that what you think hunting is? Cruising around in a Land Rover and shooting from it? Mate..sorry, but that is not how it works. Please make an attempt to understand the concept before condemning it. Hunting is hard work, and the animals are not stupid to be standing around 'unsuspecting'. Geez...even here in Oz we have so many legal hunting outfits, talk to anyone who runs one of these outfits and see if they describe it as an easy job.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 4):
The argument that the price paid for killing a Leopard helps to save other animals stinks,since most of the funds paid by trophee hunters does not end up helping protection societies but in the pockets of politicians.

No it doesn't it has been proven to work time and again. Most of these hunts are conducted on private farms, in countries like Botswana, Namibia and South Africa, the government has nothing to do with it. Game auctions are regularly conducted by the local wildlife conservation group (such as KZN wildlife in Kwa-Zulu Natal, South Africa) and the revenue generated is put back into the management and conservation of the animals.

http://www.kznwildlife.com/site/cons...ation/wildlife_management/hunting/

The revenue generated by these hunts is used to acquire more animals from game auctions to restock the farms, thereby increasing the genetic diversity of the species. Case in point - ever heard of the Blackbuck? It is a native animal of India, where it is dwindling because of 'preservation', not active conservation. It is thriving in the US, where it can be legally hunted!

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 4):
But who can justify the kill of a Rhino or leopard ???

Same point as the Blackbuck. Leopards are not dwindling by any means...there are thousands out there. In any case...no one can just hunt a leopard or a rhino - they need to get a permit first, and these permits have a quota, once the quota is reached thats it - no more Leopard or Rhino hunts.

Hunting assigns value to an animal which is hunted, above and beyond what a native could make from poaching.
If the animal in question is not of some intrinsic value to the individual the tribe or the village it will be destroyed for food or profit and the habitat where that animal once roamed will be cultivated with low yield short term plots until it is farmed out then the plots will be moved and the habitat will be rapidly destroyed.... as has happened with frightening speed in places like Kenya and others.

Whether you like it or not we now live in a cash society. There are very few true traditional societies left in the world - Africa included. Villages who had nothing and were forced to subsist off the land living and dying with it's natural highs and lows now have tractors, water wells, food storage facilities, access to medical facilities, schools and a general higher standard of living than they did before.

In many places these things are provided by the hunting leases and license fees from hunting not to mention the employment that a hunting camp offers to the locals. In fact villages that are in the communal safari areas are truly self sufficient and enjoy a much higher standard of life than those that are trying to eek out a living by themselves, or are dependant on various aid groups for their basic needs. No two ways about it.



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User currently offlineQantasistheway From Australia, joined May 2008, 309 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 1937 times:



Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 7):
Is that what you think hunting is? Cruising around in a Land Rover and shooting from it? Mate..sorry, but that is not how it works. Please make an attempt to understand the concept before condemning it. Hunting is hard work, and the animals are not stupid to be standing around 'unsuspecting'. Geez...even here in Oz we have so many legal hunting outfits, talk to anyone who runs one of these outfits and see if they describe it as an easy job.

I wasn't really hinting towards the hard work involved but rather the fact that no animal has much of a chance against a gun.

Well clearly the man who is in the photos has probably not put in much work - however ye I can imagine a ranger or guide certainly would have worked hard. But if you are paying $50 k to go hunting I wouldn't want to work too hard.

Purely out of cursiosity, why do you feel so defensively towards this?
(I'm not looking for a fight here by the way, just curios and it seems our opinions vary quote a bit.)


User currently offlineJohns624 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 903 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1918 times:

Also, since no meat can be broguht back to the States, all the meat not eaten during the safari is given to local villages. Do you know how many people an elephant can feed?

Quoting Qantasistheway (Reply 8):
Well clearly the man who is in the photos has probably not put in much work - however ye I can imagine a ranger or guide certainly would have worked hard. But if you are paying $50 k to go hunting I wouldn't want to work too hard.

You can tell all that by looking at a few pictures? Yeah, he has a few extra pounds, but don't we all? The hunter is right next to the PH all the time. He also gets a workout.


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2055 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1914 times:

When I hear about big game hunters, I always think about this dude:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZdS8oYbZOg

First-rank losers. But that's just my opinion.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineTLG From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 369 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1905 times:



Quoting Qantasistheway (Reply 8):
I wasn't really hinting towards the hard work involved but rather the fact that no animal has much of a chance against a gun.

Did you ever hunt whitetail deer? You might be surprised how much of a chance an animal has against a gun, at least if I'm carrying it!. I am an avid hunter, and here where I live in SW Wisconsin we hunt whitetails & turkeys. They both have a big advantage over a hunter by way of very keen senses, and no matter whether a hunter is using a bow or a high-powered rifle it's no easy feat to harvest them.

I hunt for 2 reasons: the sport, and for meat. Last fall (2008) I shot 3 whitetail deer. Now my freezer is full of venison and I won't be buying any meat at the supermarket for awhile.

-TLG


User currently offlineFrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3733 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1895 times:

I don't know about the ethical issues here, but I don't see what thrill you can get from shooting an elephant... I can understand chasing small or medium game in a forest, but driving to an elephant herd and shooting one? What's the point, really?
Surely you can't feel pride or thrill for putting a bullet in something that has the size and speed of a house...



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineSpringbok747 From Australia, joined Nov 2004, 4387 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1887 times:



Quoting Qantasistheway (Reply 8):
Purely out of cursiosity, why do you feel so defensively towards this?

Because I hunt along with my dad. We've hunted in Africa and here in Oz and NZ. And its bloody hard work! Not easy at all. Only those who have had the experience can truly understand what it is.



Quoting Rara (Reply 10):
First-rank losers. But that's just my opinion.

 Yeah sure

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 12):
but driving to an elephant herd and shooting one?

No one just drives to an elephant herd and shoots one. Thats how poachers do it, not ethical hunters.

http://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/...me/2007/09/danger-elephant-hunting



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User currently offlineNorthstarBoy From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1872 times:
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is that mike ditka?

that's just sick IMO.

it's one thing to hunt animals like deer, elk, things we take home and eat, but what he's doing, shooting animals for the thrill of it, then leaving the carcass to rot, or obversely taking just the head as a trophy is just sick.



Why are people so against low yields?! If lower yields means more people can travel abroad, i'm all for it
User currently offlineFrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3733 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1865 times:



Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 13):
No one just drives to an elephant herd and shoots one. Thats how poachers do it, not ethical hunters.

You keep defending the extensive amount of work involved in killing one of those beasts but provide little concrete details. I'm curious.

So, pray tell, how exactly do ethical hunters kill an elephant?



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineMillwallSean From Singapore, joined Apr 2008, 1238 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1832 times:

Hmm I very much doubt that the rather large gentleman on that picture goes for a 50 km walk in rough terrain before he shoots his animals.
By the looks of it, his tourism-money would in such a case be earned by the hospital and not by the gamepark...
My guess would be that he have been driven to a place were game park staff has located animals earlier, walked for 20 minutes and then he has seen the rhino and the game park staff has told him how to approach and where to aim. But that's just my educated guess.

I grew up hunting and still hunts occasionally. My fathers family has hunted for generations and always in the same area and the same animals on a quota decided by the national government.
I support controlled hunting.

What I don't understand is how people can be so against hunting but happily eating fish.

If I was an animal, I know what I would chose between a bullet and a hook into my bones, then being dragged for 10 maybe 30 meters or of it is gamefish, we talk a 30 to 120 minute struggle. Then it ends with the fish being exhausted, bleeding and when it reaches the surface of the water pierced by a big pointy hook that goes straight through the skin and meat and is used to lift the fish onboard the boat.
Then the fish either meets the knife or suffocation.
Given the option between that, which to me looks more like torture and a bullet I cant for my life understand why animal rights activists targets the hunters.

African gamepark hunting is not my kind of activity. My take on gameparks is that money goes to a few rich landowners. They tend to be white and often not local.

However no one can dispute that Southern Africa has succeeded and turned their wildlife into a tourist attraction and assisted with keeping animal population stable. Many other parts of Africa have not succeeded and animals are slaughtered here without much money staying in the area and without any concern for nature and sustainability.



No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
User currently offlineJohns624 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 903 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1803 times:



Quoting Francoflier (Reply 12):

Surely you can't feel pride or thrill for putting a bullet in something that has the size and speed of a house...

Elephants can easily outrun a man.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 14):
it's one thing to hunt animals like deer, elk, things we take home and eat, but what he's doing, shooting animals for the thrill of it, then leaving the carcass to rot, or obversely taking just the head as a trophy is just sick.

Who said he left the carcass to rot? All that meat is donated to the local village.

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 15):
You keep defending the extensive amount of work involved in killing one of those beasts but provide little concrete details. I'm curious.

So, pray tell, how exactly do ethical hunters kill an elephant?

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/lupoindex.asp
There is the story on how it was all done. Anyone who knows anything about cartridges knows that a 45/70 is way on the light side for buffalo or elephant.


User currently offlineQantasistheway From Australia, joined May 2008, 309 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1784 times:



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 17):
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/lupoindex.asp
There is the story on how it was all done. Anyone who knows anything about cartridges knows that a 45/70 is way on the light side for buffalo or elephant.

Okay that website just confirmed the little work involved. The same man in the pictures described the morning he murdered a lion as follows:

"Having accomplished all of those tasks, I now was free to dress and head to what I knew would be another great lodge breakfast.

We had almost completed gobbling down our breakfast when the head tracker came running in and had an excited conversation with the PH. Donnie barked, "let's go, they got him tracked out". We grabbed our rifles and gear and out we went. After what seemed like a never ending trek, the head scout tracker raised his arm and gestured with his index finger pointing at what appeared to me to be the most magnificent Lion my mind could possibly conjured up! A huge body, about 600lbs if not more, with a long flowing red-black main! The stuff of dreams! The Lion lorded over a large, partially eaten, male Blesbuck, probably part of his morning meal. Donnie whispered in my ear, "God all mighty, he is huge! We need to sneak up a little closer using that bush as cover. You can nail him from there". We did just that."

This sounds just like a safari trip that I went on, except I didn't kill an, in this case unsuspecting, lion who had just killed his prey. The only difference between this and a safari is that you get out of the car and put two bullets through the animal. Yes, the second shot is more difficult from the first but I'm sure this guy barely broke a sweat. I have absolutely no respect for this man, and people who do the same.


User currently offlineJohns624 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 903 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1758 times:



Quoting Qantasistheway (Reply 18):
After what seemed like a never ending trek

He walked a great distance. What's your problem? The goal is to sneak up on the animal. If he knows you're there, he leaves for the next county, or charges...


User currently offlineQantasistheway From Australia, joined May 2008, 309 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 1737 times:



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 19):
He walked a great distance. What's your problem? The goal is to sneak up on the animal. If he knows you're there, he leaves for the next county, or charges...

Yeah because walking can certainly be really hard work - especially when you have to carry that big ol' rifle.


 Yeah sure

P.S. I took these photo from a jeep - some of these animals aren't all that shy! Especially the bigger ones.


Big version: Width: 1024 Height: 683 File size: 260kb



Big version: Width: 1024 Height: 683 File size: 350kb


User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 2060 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1730 times:

If you read the whole story the man has given that website his whole safari seems rather absurd.

He certainly gives them impression that he just sat in his 5 star hotel, relaxing in the pool, eating all day until the trackers came to him and said they had found some game. Then he'd go out in the car, they'd stop about 150 yards away from it, he'd get out, walk a little bit closer and shoot it. He had a head tracker and the P.H. one could easily infer that he had at least 4 or 5 people finding his animals for him.

He shot other animals, just for the sake of it even though his goal was to get his African Big 6. If you read it, the only one that it seems the meat was given to the village was the elephant. Of course elephants have quite an amount of meat, but that probably didn't represent of large portion of the kills me made weight wise.

Karma was definitely in play when he broke his ankle though. The hippo was so close to killing this man, such a shame he didn't quite get to him.....

I am all for some hunting, people that go out and shoot deer and actually eat the meat, my former host family and my now ex girlfriend's family were both involved in the local deer meat industry. Killing the deer to actually eat it, and truly working hard to get the deer, but not just driving up and shooting or shooting anything that moves.


User currently offlineJohns624 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 903 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1727 times:



Quoting Qantasistheway (Reply 20):
P.S. I took these photo from a jeep - some of these animals aren't all that shy! Especially the bigger ones.

Animals in National Parks and those that live where they are hunted act totally different.


User currently offlineJohns624 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 903 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1703 times:

I also don't understand what the problem is with how a safari is run. When you pay big bucks for a hunt, yes, you have people scouting for you. The animals aren't in a small penned enclosure. You still have to go out, trek many miles, and make the shot. Also, yes, you eat well. But that's because you shot the meat. If you shot an impala in the morning, guess what's for din-din? How do you get your meat, the supermarket?

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