Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Why We Need Stronger Unions.  
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8872 posts, RR: 10
Posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3951 times:

This is by Robert Reich about the need for unions in this country. Something I believe in and support fully.

http://robertreich.blogspot.com/2009...ed-stronger-unions-and-how-to.html


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
206 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3921 times:

Nice read but yor forgetting that if you start to bully companies they are just going to pull up stakes and move to Asia or other countries. If you want the middle class to make more money lower the tax burden on them and the companies they work for. You want them to have health benefits do the same thing. Unfortunately the Norma Rae mindset is long gone and will never return. Not to mention we have seen the bad unions can cause as well when they would rather destroy the company than to give anythng back.

User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3905 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Usually IMHO the people who are so pro union are the ones that need to union protection to keep there jobs. The unmotivated, slack ass, doing the minimum if that to get by.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineStarbuk7 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 599 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3902 times:

I have never been for unions. The raise prices and have far to many demands that most companies can not afford.

Check out this link for more about unions (and their lies)

http://www.unionfacts.com/


User currently offlineDXing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3901 times:

Several questions of which there is no answer to in the article. Who bought the poll in 2006? Exactly who told the "middle class" to leverage their homes to buy "stuff"? As to his statements, all may not be as he presents. Take the janitors. If you read just his summation you would think that they are all making $16 and hour and were now all full time. Not quite. The top out for a janitor is $16 an hour, no word on how long it takes to make that figure, only 20% of the union is full time and thus eligible for health care, and part time hours were only increased 7.5 hours per week and the janitor had to be flexible as to when he or she could work those hours. As to his history lesson in 1955, that would be just before Japan and Germany got fully back on their feet. 1955 would have been the height of union power, and Jimmy Hoffa. It would have been just prior to the initial offshoring of jobs. As to his statement on tax rebates he is absolutely correct, they are a one time shot in the arm. Surprisingly there is no mention of the tax cuts that took place under the Bush administration even though every income level recieved one. Reich can toot the union horn all he wants but the fact remains he is silent on how every car GM produces has to contain a minimum $2000 charge just to cover union retirees.

http://subscript.bna.com/SAMPLES/dlr...bec158525734d00061190?OpenDocument


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8872 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3884 times:

I can see by the replies so far that Mr. Reich is correct in his article about why we need stronger unions. I cannot imagine why we would with the wonderful state of the union after eight years of the Bush Economics, I imagine you all voted for change under Obama. I mean, who would not want change after the last eight years? Change is coming, one way or another. the next one is the Employee Free Choice Act. I will try to keep you informed about the progress of the bill and the change we all seek. Justice for the many, not the few. who could deny that principle?  Smile  Smile


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12090 posts, RR: 49
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3880 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 5):
I will try to keep you informed about the progress of the bill and the change we all seek. Justice for the many, not the few. who could deny that principle?

Isn't that the slogan for the Communist Party?!



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8835 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3872 times:



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 5):
Justice for the many, not the few. who could deny that principle?

I think you have it reversed.

Simple fact. Business supplies 100% of all private sector jobs and 100% of the taxes that pay for public sector jobs. How much do Unions contribute?

Like I've said before, I am all for unions as a basis for collective bargaining, safety issues etc. But when you have Unions that have themselves become businesses, the conflict of interest becomes intolerable. GM, Ford and Chrysler would not be in the situation it is in now if it were not for the UAW.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8872 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3869 times:



Quoting DXing (Reply 4):
Reich can toot the union horn all he wants but the fact remains he is silent on how every car GM produces has to contain a minimum $2000 charge just to cover union retirees.

Why, do you have a problem with retiree's living a decent retirement? Would you care to give us your views on the "Rich" and their standard of living in retirerment, surely their retirements are in the price of everything just as the GM retiree's. I mean everything has a price does it not, especially when one is raking off all the money for huge wages and the bonus's handed out by the boards of the corporations. I cannot really believe the naive reasoning that is supposed to come from reasonable people that I read on here. I hope nobody complains to the moderators about this reply, we all can stand a little plain talk, now and again. Can't we? I would not want to offend anyone directly.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8482 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3862 times:

Unions are just awful. The pure mechanism they have is elitist to the core. Special "chosen" people get the choice jobs based not on qualifications, but connections. As they gain seniority (after voting many times), they gain power. This has nothing to do with their job performance. It ends up an entirely frivolous and wasteful result. By the workers for the workers? What about society? We can't all steal all of the time. The result would be horrible.

But I reserve special disdain for public union employees (such as New York MTA employees or New York State teachers). They just rape the public, and no matter if they do a good job or bad, their pay is based on union voting power (i.e. seniority), not the performance of the place where they work!! And when public union pensions are underfunded, guess what. They just tax citizens more to pay for it.

The stronger unionization gets, the more unsuccessful society gets, until ultimate breakdown. Unions must be allowed to form. But they must never be favored. Once the government artificially prefers unions, the end is near. It is much, much better to keep your politics out of your workplace. Earn what you can earn, and vote for wealth redistribution if that is what you believe. Just don't mess with the productive elements of our economy. We need them to make money.


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8872 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3858 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
I am all for unions as a basis for collective bargaining, safety issues etc

I must give you credit for that reasoning, and that does show reasoning, mostly lacking in most replies about workers.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
Simple fact. Business supplies 100% of all private sector jobs and 100% of the taxes that pay for public sector jobs. How much do Unions contribute?

An often overlooked fact, how can the business supply the jobs without the workers? Which came first, the chicken or the egg? One cannot exist without the other. therefor in answer to your question, the union, if in a union situation, contributes the labor for the business to exist through its members doing the work. I am sure that up to the industrial revolution, or the start of industry, everyone was self employed. someone came up with an idea to make something in larger numbers, no workers, no business. a fairly simple concept is it not? A two way street.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineDXing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3855 times:



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 5):
the next one is the Employee Free Choice Act.

Otherwise known as the Union Strongarm act.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 5):
Justice for the many, not the few. who could deny that principle?

According to the law employees are free to organize. Perhaps unions are in such dire straights membership wise because employees have wised up to what they get in return for their dues.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 8):
Why, do you have a problem with retiree's living a decent retirement?

Not at all, but where is the Union? They should have been collecting, building, and distributing the retirement fund of their members, not leaving it to the company. Oh wait, I forgot about the teamsters pension fund and the little problems they had with it say circa 1955?

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 8):
Would you care to give us your views on the "Rich" and their standard of living in retirerment, surely their retirements are in the price of everything just as the GM retiree's.

Anyone, union or executive who does not plan for their own retirement and depends on a company defined pension plan is a fool.


User currently offlineLincoln From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3887 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3854 times:



Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 2):
Usually IMHO the people who are so pro union are the ones that need to union protection to keep there jobs. The unmotivated, slack ass, doing the minimum if that to get by.

Yep! For example when I worked for the University the one gung-ho Union (CSEA) guy in the department was also the worst performer, the most slackidasical, the loudest whiner, and generally the most incompetent person for the position.

He also kept giving me crap for not taking the "manditory" hour and a half lunch every day... and he would always pull the "Oh, sorry, that's during my manditory lunch" crap if you asked him to do anything between the hours of 10:00 and 3:00.

On the other hand the great people I worked with (of which there were many) made things actually work by just ignoring the union to the extent possible or telling them to go shove things when it came down to it.

I'm all for voluntary representation, don't get me wrong, but don't tell me that I have to join a group (and worse, give them a portion of my earnings) in order to get/keep a job just because you're too lazy or incompetent to negotiate for yourself. Especially when that group has a very active political lobbying arm that goes against the majority of my personal beleifs (Social Security, Health Care)


I also find it very curious in that article "such as a comprehensive poll that Peter D. Hart Research Associates conducted in 2006, suggest that a majority of workers would like to have a union to bargain for better wages, benefits and working conditions"

Yet it provides no example of this "comprehensive" poll, let alone a the specific question that was asked. It's very easy with a poll to create a question that is slanted in such a way as to virtually gaurntee a particular response, or to be so vauge as to be nearly useless.

For example from the wording of that blob the question could have been "Would you like to make more money?" Hell yes, I'd like to make more money, but do I beleive that a union would be any better at increasing my net take home pay than I can on my own? Emphatically: No F---ing Way.

Would I like better working conditions? Eh, actually, aside from getting a couple more/brighter lights in my office (and maybe a better cable TV package at my desk -- basic is really starting to blow), I'm really quite satisfied. In any event do I think that a union would have any better luck than I would? Actually, I'd probably be worse off.

I'm a big boy. I can negotiate for the pay, working conditions, and benefits that are important to me on my own, thank you very much.

Lincoln



CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8872 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3847 times:



Quoting DXing (Reply 11):
According to the law employees are free to organize. Perhaps unions are in such dire straights membership wise because employees have wised up to what they get in return for their dues.

Anyone who can deny what Mr. Reich says about intimidation by corporations and the useless labor laws is naive to a fault, dare I say it a fool.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8958 posts, RR: 40
Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3843 times:



Quote:
NIRA's labor provisions, meanwhile, were strengthened in the National Relations Act, signed into law in 1935. As union membership doubled, so did labor's bargaining power, rising from 14 million strike days in 1936 to about 28 million in 1937. By 1939 wages in protected industries remained 24 percent to 33 percent above where they should have been, based on 1929 figures, Cole and Ohanian calculate. Unemployment persisted. By 1939 the U.S. unemployment rate was 17.2 percent, down somewhat from its 1933 peak of 24.9 percent but still remarkably high. By comparison, in May 2003, the unemployment rate of 6.1 percent was the highest in nine years.

Recovery came only after the Department of Justice dramatically stepped enforcement of antitrust cases nearly four-fold and organized labor suffered a string of setbacks, the economists found.

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla...ies-Prolonged-Depression-5409.aspx

Unions are fine, unions strengthened by law are not.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8872 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3843 times:



Quoting DXing (Reply 11):
Anyone, union or executive who does not plan for their own retirement and depends on a company defined pension plan is a fool.

Are we reading and watching the same news? It seems the executive does not have to PLAN for anything, the white collar thug system (board of directors) sees to that. they should be charged with extortion, so do not come with that foolishness about unions and defined pension plans.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineDXing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3835 times:



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 13):
Anyone who can deny what Mr. Reich says about intimidation by corporations and the useless labor laws is naive to a fault, dare I say it a fool.

Every couple of years they have a vote to allow the union in certain segments of our company, every couple of years it gets voted down. Happens that way at any number of large companies in this country. Unions who complain they can't get a fair shake are doing nothing convince those that vote against them time and time again. The workers have seen that having a union means giving up things at the workplace as well as getting and in many cases what they have to give up is not worth what they get in return.


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8872 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3817 times:



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 14):
Unions are fine, unions strengthened by law are not.

According to the article, Roosevelt thought that excessive competition was a problem. I wonder what we have now 70 years later, competition maybe once again a little excessive. drug stores selling articles never sold in drug stores. Grocery stores carrying items never before sold in grocery stores. No one wants anyone to make a buck. McDonalds across the street from Burger King. A drugstore on every corner, I think Roosevelt was absolutly correct. I think the economic mess we are in now proves that all too well. Look how many banks there are, ridiculous. Look at the clothing stores and Malls, ridiculous, resturants, by the millions, all looking for customers now that the economy has crashed. Oh! what a tangled web we weave, when we practice to deceive. Could the know it all younger generation be wrong and greedy? Hmmm.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8482 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3807 times:



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 14):
Unions are fine, unions strengthened by law are not.

YES, this is the point that has to be watched very very carefully.

Since unions are often at the brink of failure (brink of bankruptcy against a non-union competitor), they will reach out to the government for help.

"Saving the loser" actually poisons the winners, and then there is a bill for producing the whole charade (call it "economic special effects"), which is paid by the public.


User currently onlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13990 posts, RR: 62
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3804 times:

I think if you got rid of the "closed shop" principle (mandatory membership of a particular union to get employed), then you'd solve most of the problems. Here in Germany, why no emploer can force and employee NOT to be a union member, no union can force an employer only to hire members of this union.
If there is enough representation of employees with acertain union, theycan legasllyforce the boss to listen to them and negotiate with them. But on the other hand, if the union doesn't perform, there is no obstacle (e.g. fear of losing the job) against leaving this union if the union doesn't perform. Also, most German unionsare interested in keeping their company profitable, to save their member's jobs.
Anyway, normallyworkers in Germany are represented through a "Betriebsrat" an elected representative of the staff, who negotiates with the management on behalf of thestaff. This Betriebsrat might be a union member, but often he isn't, instead he is just a guy the other workers trust.

I'm a union member myself, of a British union, which only accepts licenced aircraft maintenance personnel (those who guarantee with their signature that the aircraft is airworthy), because they are the only ones working on EASA level, but I'm not going to join any of the selfserving German industrial unions again.
I think the 12 Euros per month are well invested.
Jan


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8872 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3802 times:



Quoting DXing (Reply 16):


Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 13):
Anyone who can deny what Mr. Reich says about intimidation by corporations and the useless labor laws is naive to a fault, dare I say it a fool.

Every couple of years they have a vote to allow the union in certain segments of our company, every couple of years it gets voted down. Happens that way at any number of large companies in this country. Unions who complain they can't get a fair shake are doing nothing convince those that vote against them time and time again. The workers have seen that having a union means giving up things at the workplace as well as getting and in many cases what they have to give up is not worth what they get in return.

I have no problem with people being treated well by their company, that is the way it should be. Now the question, evidently there is someone who wants a union in your place. Now if the union can't get voted in because of good treatment, fine. If the union is being defeated by fear of retribution by the corporation or company, such as, we will close, outsource, move, not so fine, that is fear mongering by the company, exactly what Mr. Reich covers in his article, intimidation without a strong way of enforcing the law against it, remains exactly that intimidation, illegal, but not enforceable under the weak law or fines. Only a fool thinks we have strong labor laws here, state or federal. Like my Mother was fond of saying about me. I quote "a great ship for the Captain, a hell ship for the crew. I still have the placque on the wall that she gave me with that saying on it.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineDXing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3798 times:



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 17):
across the street from Burger King. A drugstore on every corner

It's called free market competition. It means that if I think I can set up a business in a niche not previously identified by others I can make my pile. I don't see anything wrong with that.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21442 posts, RR: 54
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3795 times:

From my outside perspective both extremes are destructive:

Employers exploiting the weaknesses of their non-unionized workers ultimately leads to poverty even while in employment and a massive redistribution of wealth from the workers to the employers.

Unions being able to enforce full unionization, on the other hand, can choke an employer's viability as a business in extreme cases.

It's probably a good idea to recalibrate that compromise on both ends.

There need to be sufficient guaranteed rights and a reasonable social system for employees, but unions need to be reasonably constructive as well, with reasonable limits to their power as well.

After the massive shift of wealth to the employer side in recent years, however, which actually had real incomes stagnate or even drop through several years for all but the spectacularly growing upper few percent of the income range, a reconstruction of the middle class must be the priority on this continent as well!


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3782 times:



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 5):
I can see by the replies so far that Mr. Reich is correct in his article about why we need stronger unions. I cannot imagine why we would with the wonderful state of the union after eight years of the Bush Economics, I imagine you all voted for change under Obama. I mean, who would not want change after the last eight years? Change is coming, one way or another. the next one is the Employee Free Choice Act. I will try to keep you informed about the progress of the bill and the change we all seek. Justice for the many, not the few. who could deny that principle

People that don't govern by talking points and CNN sound bytes. Bush and Obama have nothing to do with this.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 8):
Why, do you have a problem with retiree's living a decent retirement? Would you care to give us your views on the "Rich" and their standard of living in retirerment, surely their retirements are in the price of everything just as the GM retiree's. I mean everything has a price does it not, especially when one is raking off all the money for huge wages and the bonus's handed out by the boards of the corporations. I cannot really believe the naive reasoning that is supposed to come from reasonable people that I read on here. I hope nobody complains to the moderators about this reply, we all can stand a little plain talk, now and again. Can't we? I would not want to offend anyone directly.

Nothing wrong with someone getting retirement but you can't force companies to do the same thing. It was one thing to improve sweat shops and fighting companies that did illegal things but you sound you like want unions so they can get all these perks and benefits for their help. You realize of course that companies have budgets and overhead? Not all are going to pay their help what you think is right or give them stuff after they retire. That is just a fact of life. You are not forced to work there, you can always leave and find a better job. Implying that we need unions to start to strongarm companies into giving their help more is reason why people feel Luv2fly do in reply 2.


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8872 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3778 times:

[quote=PPVRA,reply=14]Unions are fine, unions strengthened by law are not.

Ok, As we all should know the history of unionism has a very violent past, even back to the old "Guilds" of the middle ages, would you all like to go back to those violent days? We all know that may come again, we see evidence of this in the unrest in the economic slowdown around the world. That is what a law is for as far as labor laws go, to enforce FAIRNESS, to give the workers a way to protect themselves from the Corporations, which are inherantly greedy and vicious. Before these laws which were paid for with blood and violence, we all know, if we have read history, the way of life here and elsewhere was existance, nothing more. Great for some. You folks may have a high opinion of yourselves, go back 100 years and see how you would make out and how your families would live before unions changed it all.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
25 WarRI1 : Every now and again, a reasonable well thought out reply. Two sides to every story. A huge transfer of wealth upwards Well said.
26 WarRI1 : You and the Free Marketers, your opinion, I will stick by Mr. Roosevelt's theory. Crushing competition, stifleing wages while trying to make your "PI
27 Mariner : I'm a strong union supporter. I don't think I was an unmotivated, slack ass. mariner
28 WarRI1 : How inaccurate with that one, I am sorry, but Bush dam near destroyed our economic system and now President Obama will certainly have the punch to in
29 GuitrThree : Humm. We can argue this that and another, but let's look at results. GM. Ford. Chrysler. Tank. Tank. Tank. Delta. AA. United. NWA. Continental. Tank.
30 Windy95 : Union thug act No thanks Okay Chairman Mao Not much Exactly Take a look at the current Teamsters Central states pension fund Your opinion Check Two w
31 NIKV69 : This is simply Kool aide. Bush alone was not to blame for the downturn in the economy and your Dem buddies shoulder blame as well. In addition Obama
32 DXing : Nobody is forcing you to come work for me. BTW, most trades people in business for themselves, even if they belong to a union, bid on the jobs that t
33 Luv2fly : There are always exceptions.....
34 PSA727 : If the unions were "all that" then they should support secret ballots and not card check. A secret ballot would protect employees from any type of emp
35 WarRI1 : Look at the wage and benefits for most, the non-union auto companies, not bad, Walmart and the vast majority of retail, slave wages. A joke for a liv
36 Aaron747 : Why do you have a problem with people, provided that they have decent wages commensurate with their local cost of living, being responsible for livin
37 WarRI1 : Duh! look around at the numbers, gee! aren't things wonderful after 8 years of your leaders economics. Amazing, the Kool Aid is still strong enough.
38 WarRI1 : I agree, Obama will have nothing to do with forcing labor to do anything they labor) do not want to do. I know you did not mean it that way, but see
39 Johns624 : They did, they bargained for it. If they hadn't had a defined pension, they would have asked for more money upfront. The nonunion automakers HAVE TO
40 WarRI1 : I do not have any problem with anyone taking care of themselves. Now as far as wages commensurate with their local cost of living, surely you jest. I
41 WarRI1 : Amen!, I can see by your age bracket, you have been there and done that, these naive replies about the big bad unions amaze me. I sometimes feel I am
42 Windy95 : But show me what he did to create the credit crisis. How he was solely responsible for it? Which is why union numbers are dwindling and going oversea
43 Lincoln : While I may be young, my first two employers (and my first 6 years of employment) were hevaily unionized. I've seen the hell that they can wreak on e
44 Johns624 : Yeah, those pesky EPA regulations. Let those heathen Indians and Chinese worry about air, water and soil pollution... That's where offshoring saves t
45 DXing : I don't care what their union bargained for. If they weren't smart enough to take care of themselves then they have no one to blame but themselves. S
46 Johns624 : Let's see, your bio says that you're an airline dispatcher in the 46-55 age range. Let's say you make $55K a year. That means that whenyou retire in
47 WarRI1 : He was not, but he and the Republicans sure set a bad example of influence peddling, greed, and currption, look at the FDA, food laws, big business,
48 ADXMatt : As a longstanding "benefit" the pension is part of the plan. You mention decent wages above. remember an employees pension is part of the complete co
49 GuitrThree : Maybe. But take a closer look. How much do you think a cashier or stock boy should make? $50K plus benefits? They ring up and stock stuff. I don't me
50 N328KF : Unions used to serve a purpose. Nowadays, they should serve only as a target for RICO prosecution.
51 WarRI1 : I somehow missed the question. Not that I can see. The union is required to pay prevailing wages if there is a contract using Federal, state, municip
52 WarRI1 : That was Aaron747 asking me the question, not my answer. This was my answer
53 WarRI1 : I am afraid that is not worthy of my time to type an answer.
54 WarRI1 : I guess you have not noticed the jump in age for the people at Walmart and all the other low wage jobs lately. Some folks are not equipped mentally t
55 DXing : If I was depending soley on stocks that might be true. There are other investment arms. If you have read any of my previous posts on this subject I d
56 WarRI1 : He is trying to make a living, using honorable labor to do so. He is not exploiting cheap labor around the world, cutting the throats of workers in h
57 DXing : Really? Even when he under bids his union buddies who might be trying to get the same job? You just don't get it. Stronger unions will lead to only o
58 WarRI1 : That is absurd, everyone by the millions scrambling to come here, all the congress has to do if they had any balls, and not currupted by money is pas
59 Smcmac32msn : Ask the big 3 automaker employees how many fighter jets you can make when you're not taking in taxes because they asked so much, the company had to b
60 Alias1024 : I'm very much pro union but I'm certainly not a slack ass, doing the minimum to get by. At least you had better hope I'm not if you are in the back a
61 Elite : Unions were created to stop big corporations from "bullying" the average worker, but in some cases the reverse happens: the big unions disrupt busines
62 Post contains images Cpd : ER, EXCUSE ME??         I'm one pro-union worker who is exceptionally dedicated - does plenty of overtime (don't get paid for it either) and doe
63 Johns624 : No one has addressed my posts on the real reason companies moved jobs overseas, environmental and safety regulations. Who cares if a river in China ge
64 Windy95 : Sounds like the government is your problem. Not greedy big corporations
65 WarRI1 : "God" like unions, where do these incredible thoughts come from? Terminology, a liitle too strong for the occasion. Once again read Robert Reichs tak
66 Windy95 : Will making CO2 a pollutant send more jobs overseas? Yes Sorry but there is a point where things are taken to far. WHy do we not have more Nuclear po
67 DXing : I'm sure that China would love to hear that one considering all the debt of this country that they hold. Yep, they have a great track record of stick
68 WarRI1 : Right on ! they would be kissing you slack ass about that time to save their sorry asses,
69 Smcmac32msn : WarRI1 doesn't like the idea of addressing this because he knows thats why over 3 million jobs have been sent overseas. He knows that when the union
70 Smcmac32msn : Here's a sign of a bad (too strong of) union in sports. The MLB is behind Manny Ramirez and his try to find a new job in '09. Manny rejected a 1 year,
71 N328KF : I never understood why jobs which require talent or creativity were unionized. Actors, writers, sports stars, etc... Isn't the point of unionization
72 EMBQA : I have never worked for a union company and plan on never doing it. Say what you want about companies and intimidation, but in my career in aviation
73 Smcmac32msn : I agree..... but god forbid they each don't get the money from spectators that they can suck off a ton more money off of the consumer. Thats why team
74 Yellowstone : I was talking about the issue of unions the other day with my dad, and he came up with an interesting idea. He suggested that perhaps the best way for
75 MD11Engineer : This is actually of the best posts so far. It would definitely level the playing field and prevent the bosses from playing the workers of different c
76 Victrola : We live in a free market economy. The free market can be harsh. However we continue to have a free market economy because, for all its harshness, it s
77 MD11Engineer : That onlyapplies to "closed shop" system you have in some states of the US. E.g. in AFAIK, most of Europe, no union can legally force an employer to
78 Windy95 : excellent post
79 Post contains links Windy95 : Jetblue pilot's turned down the attempt at unionization today. http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/090203/ny66252.html?.v=1
80 Aaron747 : Um, refuse to work for union companies that only weaken with time under the weight of their own baggage. I was forced to join a union when I worked a
81 Luv2fly : What is always amazing to me is how "some" people feel that a union and or unions are the end all of end alls. That once you belong to a union that a
82 Post contains links 767Lover : 100 years ago, people were less able to move to where the jobs were, so they were more at the mercy of employers. It's a totally different scenario t
83 GuitrThree : Well, as of right now, America is a free country. If you don't like living in the land of taxes, you can always move down here were it's much more re
84 Yellowstone : The ideal you express is, well, idealistic. In a perfect world, the market for labor would be perfectly competitive, thus leading to optimal distribu
85 WarRI1 : Major League sports is an insane fantasy world, has nothing to do with workers, union or non-union. I show my support for them, I do not watch or go
86 WarRI1 : I live here in the land of taxes and curruption because of family and friends. My choice. Nobody and I mean nobody is more sickened by the stupididy
87 Tugger : OK, so there are good unions and bad unions. Can you give a few examples? I for one believe that unions that enforce seniority are bad for workers be
88 Cpd : That's not true. They can not do that here. But what they can do fairly effectively is prevent long-term contracting, that is done for no other reaso
89 MD11Engineer : I agree with this and generally also agree with pay per performance. Only: How do you measure performance? With some jobs, e.g. bricklaying, it is ea
90 767Lover : So, if your grandchild decides to become an airline pilot, gets a job, then the airline eventually gets on shaky ground, you would be happy that your
91 MD11Engineer : It really depends. Ok, my point of view is from Europe, but e.g. in my profession I'm not very worried unless oil goes above $200 a barrel, since the
92 Victrola : There are far too many corporations and businesses with conflicting interests for them ever to have the power to dictate wages in the labor market. A
93 Smcmac32msn : Thats all fine and good, but you say that and then the "rich, educated types" whine that prices on items are too high..... well if you want everybody
94 CALTECH : Second that motion.
95 MD11Engineer : Well, I know of illegal (but impossible to prove to courtroom standards) of employer's cartels in my business. Usuallyyou only have a very limited nu
96 Victrola : Timing is a factor that comes into the equation. The cost hiring a worker will vary from day to day. There are upsides and downsides to having a cont
97 GuitrThree : I understand that! Hard to leave them. That's what keeps me from leaving for some exotic island! Tell me about it. However, while it's a crime that a
98 WarRI1 : The major league unions are not bad, they make insane money because of business decisions such as Mr. Steinbrenner made. I think it sickening, to pay
99 Luv2fly : No seniority keeps people doing a mediocre job since nothing can be done to them.
100 WarRI1 : Simply amazing, talk about exploitation. I am afraid it is an accepted way of businees among most on here.
101 Flighty : Really? Well, I read that and maybe it's true but minorities also enjoy extensive hiring protections under the law. It' nothing special, it's just fo
102 WarRI1 : I am afraid the know it all philosophy is alive and well once again.
103 Luv2fly : Oh I see so pro-union is above reproach! Everything you speak about the union is 100% and with out question. Is that how it works in the union.[Edite
104 FlyDeltaJets87 : You know whats funny after 8 years - unionized auto companies are in the shitter; non-union auto companies are holding out and don't need government
105 JakeOrion : I'm a defense contractor and typically a job that is less than 10 years will be contracted out. Its a contractor's nature, and written in my contract
106 BHMBAGLOCK : More properly named the "You're more likely to vote the way we want with a card in front of you and a union goon behind you than in a secret ballot A
107 Luv2fly : !00% correct and they say Jimmy Hoffa is dead.
108 WarRI1 : Believe me when I say this, I do not agree with labor on this issue., these folk are lawbreakers, nothing else, they should not be made legal until t
109 A346Dude : How is it exploitation? The contractor has every right to walk out the door and find a better position elsewhere. And if he can't then he deserves no
110 WarRI1 : No it does not work that way at all. You made the flat statement about Senority producing mediocre work. you passed the judgement, no argument. I gue
111 WarRI1 : Ask the reply writer, I was never exploited, but I agree with him 100% Crumbum companies using contract workers so they do not have to pay anything b
112 WarRI1 : Jimmy Hoffa is dead, he was a thug and a criminal. No different than many corporate types today is there? I guess White Collar Crime is different. Co
113 WarRI1 : Read my last reply on equal thuggery.
114 WarRI1 : I find that hard to digest. BS. I guess even with a union, management was not paying a living wage, it just goes to show you about the Evil Corporati
115 WarRI1 : According to Projo.com R.I. was only state in New England to experiance negative growth, as of April 2008. Personal income grew by 4.8%, compared to
116 Post contains images Smcmac32msn : Wouldn't have anything to do with unions asking too much, would it?   Remember, we're not union, you're lucky we have to treat you right or we lose
117 Tugger : You have misunderstood. I am not disparaging experience, it should be valued highly. The problem I am pointing out, that you missed, is that a person
118 WarRI1 : BS. In this mornings Providence Journal, their article sure disputes your figures once again. Projo.com is the link. Union membership in state and th
119 WarRI1 : I understand your point, but in a case of employment where you are not a transient, it means everything. Take a head linemen in the power companies,
120 Moo : A lot of contractors are contractors because they want to be - we have one 'on staff' at the moment thats been with the company now for 2 years, and
121 WarRI1 : I agree with that whole-heartedly. We could always tranfer to another local and after a set amount of time and gain you seniority back. I cannot spea
122 Elite : Me three. Excellent post, Victrola... it all comes down to the free markets and the invisible hand.
123 WarRI1 : I really have no problem with that. Personal choice. Not many in my world want to be transient workers. We had enough of that in the military, way ba
124 WarRI1 : They do have that right, be a mercenary worker, who cares. Union people feel just a little different about that type of lifestyle. We try to keep our
125 Smcmac32msn : Who says people who aren't in unions aren't happy? Only you.
126 Luv2fly : [quote=WarRI1,reply=124]It wa s pretty good post there until the old Kool Aid took over when you got to the union part.[/quoted] Basically what your s
127 Victrola : "Until the old Kool Aid took over" doesn't go very far to refute the facts I have posted in my statement, which I have included again, should anyone
128 Victrola : So you finally admit that you are in favor of coercion of workers! Anyone who is against a secret ballot, is against democracy. There is no freedom w
129 Windy95 : Period. I am and have been a union member and I find it apalling. WE have a mixed bag of ex American, NW, USAir and UAL guys here at CAL. Twenty to t
130 AGM100 : Hilda Solis is very Pro Union ... I mean very pro union. She has argued for unionizing everything in Kalifornia (sarcasm) .. Her dossier reads like a
131 Victrola : So Windy95, what is the feeling among your fellow union members about this legislation? The impression I get from the media is that everyone in the u
132 WarRI1 : Not even close to what I said as usual. I said people who travel around doing contract work, or seeking employment on the road, that type of worker,
133 WarRI1 : If you hadn't noticed before, I do not need agreement from anyone, I am giving my position, just as you are giving yours. I agreed with part of that
134 Luv2fly : I think you effectively canceled out your argument.
135 WarRI1 : BS. You are giving YOUR IDEAS on unions, show me documentation that your ideas are any more valid than mine. You cannot. It is all a matter of interp
136 WarRI1 : As stated, you fight fire with fire, the companies fight the unions with coercion, it is about time a little was applied to the first offenders. We w
137 WarRI1 : I agree with you, I cannot speak for airline unions and their rules, or the requirements of the airlines. It is a little different with so many lives
138 WarRI1 : As a labor type, she is not my type of person, nor her ideas, send the illegals home.
139 WarRI1 : I said there are some fair minded who can appreciate both sides of the discussion. Are you implying that I am not. I think I can go back and find a f
140 Wingscrubber : I believe that china, india, taiwan malaysia and sri lanka appreciate the manufacturing unions pricing themselves out of work so their employers are f
141 WarRI1 : Your choice, I have no argument with that, but to be naive enough to not realize that it was only greed that caused the outsourcing of jobs is not be
142 SCCutler : There is so much, conceptually, that labor unions could do for the mutual benefit of the rank and file whom they putatively represent, and for the ind
143 Post contains links 767Lover : They're not MY figures. They are the AFL-CIO's figures. (Or at least they posted someone else's figures.) I posted the source earlier, with a direct
144 Victrola : You would have gone far in Stalin's Soviet Union. You obviously don't believe in democracy. Anyone who does not believe in the secret ballot does not
145 Luv2fly : I made the same analogy in this thread and it was glossed over by the OP as well. I do have to agree with you though, unions are a whole lot like Com
146 WarRI1 : I picked up the morning paper, there the article was the very next morning after your post.You try reading the link at Projo.com, this is not a newsp
147 Victrola : So secret ballots have no validity when it comes to labor issues????? This has got to be one of the most rediculous statements I have ever come acros
148 Luv2fly : How is that different then what the union goons do to you if you do not vote there way? Come on it is fact of how the union uses fear, harassment and
149 PPVRA : We can live with Chinese labor and American more expensive labor side by side. Let the Chinese take the jobs of making cheap consumer products, and l
150 Victrola : It's no use Luv2fly. He has already expressed his approval of Union goon harrasment tactics. This is justified in his world. See below. We are dealin
151 Yellowstone : Imagine, for a moment, that American governmental elections looked something like this. Anyone working in favor of a Republican campaign could be dep
152 Flighty : Secret ballots are every bit as important as the other items you mention.
153 Victrola : It would be even less fair if there were no secret ballot. What is so hard to understand about that?
154 Cpd : I'm not complaining about that - but when you start getting these very long term contracts, any ethical company should at least offer the person the
155 Yellowstone : I take that as an admission that you recognize the unfairness of the system I described, which is alarmingly similar to how some companies respond to
156 Victrola : [quote=Yellowstone,reply=155] take that as an admission that you recognize the unfairness of the system I described, which is alarmingly similar to ho
157 Post contains links WarRI1 : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy I would suggest you read the above link about the Principles of Democracy. take special notice of the two main
158 Post contains links Yellowstone : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barriers_to_entry
159 WarRI1 : Not as easy as some on here would make you believe, I thank you for the information. I do not remember any replies about the number of new business f
160 WarRI1 : Another excellant post, certainly not popular on here, my goodness, someone is thinking and seeing through the bull about how coercion works for mana
161 WarRI1 : Once again, an amazing statement. The Freedom of Choice Act may become Federal Law, I advocate that, so in your world, that advocates violence or int
162 WarRI1 : [quote=WarRI1,reply=157]I await your answer about the rights of workers, (not citizens) I await you explanation about the sharing of power in a corpo
163 Windy95 : No most in our shop are against. They fear more union coercion and the unions attemting more control over us. B.S. It gives the power of coercion to
164 WarRI1 : Answer the questions posed in my reply above. You do not like the Employees Free Choice Act, because of the openness of the procedure, explain why it
165 WarRI1 : Yellowstone, you are 100% correct, for many years anti-union is what has been taught, union people sent their children off to school. Years later, ma
166 Luv2fly : Hello? Pot kettle here, your black! Mom had an expression that I think applies here, "People in glass houses should not throw stones"
167 WarRI1 : Another head in the ground statement, man o' man, who I might ask has more power over an individual than the Dictatorship of a corporation? The only
168 WarRI1 : Duh! Is this in reference to telling the young man, "Don't drink the Kool Aid" ? Man ! Some of the irrational defense of the coporation Dictators tel
169 Windy95 : How do you answer or argue with this tripe posted below.
170 Windy95 : If yuo do not like your job or company. Find another . Simple enough You want to share power. Start you own company, buy large amounts of stock or ge
171 WarRI1 : Boring, that must be the 1000th time that has been said. Same lack of reasoning, why all of a sudden when you cross the company gate, you surrender y
172 WarRI1 : A dictator. One who has absolute power. Now I will admit a CEO might answer to the Board, doubtful, but that is the way it is supposed to work. Now a
173 Luv2fly : How is this kool aid different then what the union zealots are downing?
174 Windy95 : Nice job at twisting my words. You would make comrade Stalin proud. With a secret ballot I have had only coercion by my union. Having an open one wou
175 WarRI1 : You will notice, I said that is how the English Language can be twisted. I did not twist your words. That could be read either way, it is very common
176 WarRI1 : First of all, I understand the curruption of the Teamsters, second, I do not understand about un-elected leaders of the Union, never happened in my c
177 Post contains links WarRI1 : http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/09/us/09peanuts.html?hp I would think this maybe another reason for unions or at least stronger unions, we and our chil
178 Mayor : Why would you need a "secret ballot" box on non-union property unless you planned to vote? In my own experience at DL, we had two different union org
179 Windy95 : Have you ever tried to disaffiliate from any union? I have and it is a long hard progress. And trying to escape from the clutches of the Teamsters is
180 Mayor : Exactly. Join a union and you better be prepared to adhere to the union line. Having worked for a non-union airline, I never felt threatened by manag
181 WarRI1 : Nit picking as usual, as I said to Windy 95, it is easy to twist words. He took mine the wrong way, I tried to explain and as usual with you folks, n
182 WarRI1 : I am amazed you walked into this one, we all do. I suggest that you take yours and so many others advice on here. (Adnauseam) I will say it, I am rel
183 WarRI1 : The Kool Aid we Union Zealots drink, must not have the poison in it that drives us to screw over people like the corporation Kool Aid has. We try to
184 WarRI1 : I congradulate you, do you think that is possible today? It must have been a "fair" company where you did not need a union. I wish there were more of
185 Luv2fly : Really what about the union guys that keep list of scabs and make it there life's work to make those peoples life miserable. What about riding people
186 WarRI1 : [quote=Luv2fly,reply=185]Really what about the union guys that keep list of scabs and make it there life's work to make those peoples life miserable.
187 Mayor : Bubba, I only retired in 2005. Wasn't so long before that. Hardly "A long time ago in a galaxy far away."
188 Mayor : I think it's the "Jonestown" blend.
189 Windy95 : There was nothing to walk into there. My work environment should not be made worse by the union. I do not work for the union and should not have to w
190 WarRI1 : I was referring to Managers who knew what they were doing and knew how to treat people, sorely lacking today, especially the knowing what they were d
191 WarRI1 : I would strongly suggest that certain people should not throw stones while living in that glass house. I would dispute your qualifications to offer s
192 SCCutler : I should so-gently remind you that, because the NLRA and (if passed) EFCA both operate by operation of law, with the enforcement thereof by the might
193 Mayor : I know what you were referring to. I'm saying that it WAS NOT that long ago, three or 4 years, at the most. Think things have changed at that company
194 WarRI1 : That is the key, if the government passes this EFCA, it will be the law of the land. If passed' obviously our esteemed government representatives wil
195 WarRI1 : I have been trying to reply to reply to Mayor, no such luck, it keeps saying that I am replying to a post that has been deleted. ?????
196 WarRI1 : To Mayor Reply 193. I plead innocent to being a know it all. I give you credit for being able to admit Executive compensation is extreme to a fault, s
197 Mayor : Looks like it's still there, to me. I've been noticing a couple of glitches lately, too.
198 WarRI1 : I had some problems last night also. I thought someone was hacking my replies to keep me off. Just kidding.
199 SCCutler : Please, do not fall into the trap of presuming that, because elected representatives passed a bill, that its mandates are "needed." Quite wrong, here
200 Maverick623 : Apparently you. I had a great job making sandwiches at Subway (please name a fast food joint that has a union?), got paid more after a year than I di
201 WarRI1 : Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 194): If the end result is a happy worker who can afford to live, is treated fairly by the company, has decent working condition
202 WarRI1 : There are many laws that I do not support, this happens to be one that I do. Majority Rules in Congress, so we have to believe that it is a needed bi
203 SCCutler : Probably two-thirds of my clients are businesses owned by people who apprenticed in the union system, and when they were able, opened their own busine
204 Maverick623 : Explain this: You can't have it both ways. Either you're for unions setting up shop whether or not people want them, or you're not. Ya know, I saw a
205 WarRI1 : You can make sandwichs for a living, or be a pilot, your choice in careers, as long as one is satisfied. Obviously, there are always two sides to eve
206 WarRI1 : I might ask, where did these union trained , business owners find their well trained, efficient labor rates? I certainly hope not over there, in the
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
This Is Why We Need Damm Fences...... posted Fri Apr 14 2006 19:50:53 by Alberchico
And This Is Why We Will End Up With NHC posted Sat Oct 18 2008 07:36:34 by RJdxer
And Californians Wonder Why We Think Their Strange posted Mon Aug 18 2008 19:34:34 by RJdxer
We Need More Female Traffic Officers! posted Tue Feb 19 2008 08:58:38 by Ronglimeng
This Is The Reason We Need The Death Penalty posted Tue Nov 27 2007 02:17:21 by Stratosphere
Why We Pilots Love What We Do? posted Fri Mar 16 2007 08:11:30 by PU752
For Those Who Question Why We Are In Iraq posted Mon Jan 22 2007 21:35:24 by Pope
Why The € Is Stronger At The Year End? posted Sun Dec 3 2006 10:33:51 by F.pier
Why We Don't See These Cars In America? posted Sun Oct 22 2006 23:47:18 by SFOMEX
Website Reminds World Why We Fight posted Fri Oct 6 2006 18:03:50 by AerospaceFan