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Letter To American Jews  
User currently offlineEmiratesLover From Malta, joined Dec 2000, 341 posts, RR: 0
Posted (12 years 4 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1738 times:

As is well known, an increasing numberof courageous Israeli soldiers are now refusing to do their service in the illegally occupied territories.Since the tendency by Israelis in general is to demonize them, I believe in the necessity of not just listening about them, but to listen to them as well.

This is one of the best article I have read of the brave peaceniks dubbed Israel's army of peace that needs to be read to realize the inherently violent nature of occupation, and the brutality Israel has imposed on Palestinians and why an increasing number of Israelis who deserve our support and respect no longer wish to play the part of the oppressor.


An Open Letter to American Jews



By Assaf Oron



Passover Eve, 2002





Dear People,



Yesterday I was informed of an interesting phenomenon: a
peace-supporting Jewish organization called Tikkun published an ad
in favor of us, the Israeli reservist refuseniks, and was immediately
bombarded with hate mails and phones from other American Jews. What
ís more interesting is that even other Jews considering themselves
supporters of peace have denounced the Tikkun ad, to the extent
that some of the Tikkun Advisory Board members are resigning in
order to minimize the personal damage to themselves. This has so
saddened, alarmed and angered me, that I find myself setting aside
a half-day at the eve of Passover, and writing this open letter to
you all. As is my habit, it is quite long, so please bear with me.




Most of the 'civilized' attacks, so I understand, were seemingly
aimed at this or that detail of the Tikkun ad. This is nothing new
to me. Over the past two months since we came out with our own ad,
Iíve heard and read so many specific arguments about specific
aspects of our act. They range from petty nit-picking to plain
ludicrous, and each and every one of them can be refuted to dust
in a matter of minutes. But the moment you refute them, new specific
arguments sprout up like mushrooms. It is clear that there is
something very general and non-specific behind all this criticism.
Therefore, if you allow me, I will start from the general and only
later turn to a couple of these specific issues.


The general theme is the tribal theme. A very very loud voice (and i
n Israel nowadays, it is the only voice that is allowed to be fully
heard) keeps shouting that we are in the midst of a war between two
tribes: a tribe of human beings, of pure good ñ the Israelis ñ and
a tribe of sub-human beings, of pure evil ñ the Palestinians. This
voice is so loud, that it has found its way even to the op-ed pages
of the New York Times (William Safire, March 24 or 25). To those who
find this black-and-white picture a bit hard to believe, the same
voice shouts that this is a war of life and death. Only one tribe
will survive, and so even if we are not purely good, we must lay
morality and conscience to sleep, shut up and fight to kill--or
else, the Palestinians will throw us into the sea.

Does this ring a bell to you? It does to me. As a little child
growing up in Israel under Golda Meir and Moshe Dayan, all I heard
was that the Arabs are inhuman monsters who want to throw us into
the sea, they understand only force, and since our wonderful IDF
has won the Six Day War they know not to mess with us anymore --or
else. And of course, we must keep the Liberated Territories to
ourselves, because thereís no one to talk with. Then came the Yom
Kippur war, and for a child of 7 it was the perfect proof that
indeed the Arabs want to throw us into the sea, and what a great
opportunity it was for our glorious IDF to teach them a lesson.
I prayed for the war to continue to its natural and final end --
the complete surrender of all Arab armies. I was too small to
evaluate, then, how the war really ended; all these cease-fires
and talks were too complicated and boring, much more boring than
a war. And it seemed humiliating that WE should withdraw in these
cease-fires; I remember that the re-opening of the Suez Canal
was portrayed in our mass media as a kind of defeat.


A few years passed and a funny thing happened: those
throw-us-into-the-sea Arabs came to talk with us, and in
exchange for all of Sinai they would sign a full peace. The
IDF chief of staff (the late Motte Gur, later a Labor Party
minister) shouted that it is a hoax, that we should not believe
Saadat, but the politicians had to sign. Already a teenager, I
went and protested against the withdrawal from Sinai. It seemed
strange to me that most of the demonstrators were orthodox Jews.
After all, it was a purely logical issue: the Arabs are not to
be trusted, thatís what weíve learned from day one. Well, lucky
for the country, the government and the majority of the people
employed a different logic, and the peace with Egypt was not
missed.


But the throw-us-into-the-sea paradigm immediately found new
fields for play. There was an inconvenient reality on the Northern
border, and even though the forces on the other side (Palestinians!
Phew!) had strictly adhered to a secret cease-fire for about a year,
they were Arabs and therefore could not be trusted. So we talked
ourselves into invading Lebanon and setting up a friendlier regime
there. The mastermind of the invasion was defense minister Ariel
Sharon, and Shimon Peres, then head of opposition, voted together
with his party in favor of the invasion. Only later, when it turned
sour, and after many refuseniks already sat in jail, would the main
opposition turn against the whole affair. For me at 16 it was also
a turning point. When I understood that the government had lied to
me in order to sell me this war, I turned from 'center-rightist' to
'leftist'. Sadly enough, it has taken me almost 20 more years,
in a slow and painful process, to understand how deeply the lies
and self-delusion are rooted in our collective perception of reality.




Anyway, when Peres withdrew most of our forces from Lebanon in 1985,
the Arabs could still not be trusted. And so, to soothe our endless
paranoia and suspicion, we created that perpetual source of death
and crime ironically known as "the Security Zone." It took many
years, a lot of blood and Four Mothers ñ against almost all
politicians, generals, and columnists ñ to finally pull us out of
Lebanon. In the long and hard way, we learned that even the Lebanese
are human beings whose rights must be respected.


But not the Palestinians. Because the Palestinians are too painfully
close, like a rival sibling (and ñ may I add ñ because they have
always been so weak), we have singled them out for a special
treatment. Having them under our rule, weíve allowed ourselves to
trample them like dirt, like dogs. Weíve been doing it even to our
own Palestinian citizens (especially before 1966), but we have
perfected our treatment in this strange no manís land created in
1967, and known as the Occupied Territories. There we have created
an entirely hallucinatory reality, in which the true humans, members
of the Nation of Masters, could move and settle freely and safely,
while the sub-humans, the Nation of Slaves, were shoved into the
corners, and kept invisible and controlled under our IDF boots.


I know. I've been there. I was taught how to do this, back in
the mid-1980ís. I did and witnessed as a matter of fact, deeds
that I'm ashamed to remember to this day. And fortunately for me,
I did not have to witness or do anything truly "pornographic",
as some friends of mine experienced.


Since 1987, this cruel, impossible, unnatural, insulting reality in
the Territories has been exploding in our face. But because of our
unshakeable belief that the Palestinians are monsters who want to
throw us into the sea, we reacted by trying to maintain what we've
created at all costs. This meant of course employing more and more
and more force, with the natural result of receiving more and more
and more force in return. When a fledgling and hesitating peace
process tried to work its way through this mess, one major factor
(perhaps THE factor) that undermined it and voided its meaning was
our establishmentís endless fear and suspicion of The Other. To
resolve this fear and suspicion, we chose the insane route of
demanding full control of The Other throughout the process. When
this Other finally decided that weíre cheating him out of his
freedom (and having too many mental disorders of his own to
accommodate ours as well), violence erupted, and all our ancient
instincts woke up. There they are, we said in relief, now we see
their true face again. The Arabs want to throw us into the sea.
Thereís no one to talk with (ëno partnerí, in our beloved ex-PMís
words), and they understand only force. And so we responded as we
know and love, with more and more and more force. This time, the
effect was that of putting out a fire with a barrel of gasoline.
And thatís the moment when I said to myself, NO, Iím not playing
this game anymore.


But what about the existential threat, you may ask? Well I ask you,
have you not eyes? Donít you see our tanks strolling in Palestinian
streets every other day? Donít you see our helicopters hovering over
their neighborhoods choosing which window to shoot a missile into?
What type of existential need are we answering in trampling the
Palestinians?


Prevention of terror, I hear you say. Let me use the wonderful words
of my friend Ishay Rosen-Zvi: ìYou are ëfighting against terrorí?
What a joke. The Israeli government, in its policies of Occupation,
has turned the Territories into a greenhouse for growing terror!!!


We have sown the seeds, grown them, nurtured them ñ and then our
blood is spilled, and the centrist-right-wing politicians reap the
benefits. Indeed, terror is the right-wing politicianís best friend.
You know what? When you treat millions of people like sub-humans for
so long, some of them will find inhuman strategies to fight back.
Isn't that what the Zionists, and other Jewish revolutionaries,
argued about a hundred years ago in order to explain the questionable
strategies of survival that Jews used in Europe? Didn't our
forefathers say, ìLet us live like human beings, and see how we'll
act just like other human beings?


So here's the deal. I hope that the first part of this letter made
it clear that I donít buy the ìthey want to throw us into the sea
crap. Itís just a collective self-delusion of ours. But more
importantly, I donít see tribes. I see people, human beings. I
believe that the Palestinians are human beings like us. What a
concept, eh? And before everything else, before EVERYTHING else,
we must treat them like human beings without demanding anything in
return. And no (to all die-hard Barak fans), throwing them a couple
of crumbs in which they can set up pitiful, completely controlled
Bantustans in between our settlements and bypass roads, and
believing it to be a great act of ëgenerosityí, does NOT come
close to answering this basic requirement. This requirement is NOT
negotiable; moreover, in a perfect demonstration of historical
justice, it is a vital requirement for the survival of our own State.


After that, and based on the lessons of modern history, especially
that of the Arab-Israeli conflict (as was briefly described above),
I do believe that the Palestinians will calm down, and that the
elusive ëSecurityí and peace will finally come upon us (as it did,
incidentally, for almost two whole years between Wye 1998 and Camp
David 2000). I donít have any insurance policy for that (well
--almost none, except the solemn promise of the entire Arab world),
but remember - I have this funny notion that they are human beings.
In any case, we are seeing now all too well what type of insurance
policy the opposite paradigm is providing us.



In the meanwhile, I refuse to be a terrorist in my tribeís name.
Because thatís what it is: not a ìwar against terrorî, as our
propaganda machine tries to sell. This is a war OF terror, a war in
which, in return for Palestinian guerrilla and terror, we employ the
IDF in two types of terror. The more visible one are the violent acts
of killing and destruction, those which some people still try to
explain away as ësurgical acts of defense.í The worse type of terror
is the silent one, which has continued unabated since 1967 and
through the entire Oslo process. It is the terror of Occupation,
of humiliation on a personal and collective basis, of deprivation
and legalized robbery, of alternating exploitation and starvation.
This is the mass of the iceberg, the terror that is itself a
long-term greenhouse for counter-terror. And I simply refuse to be
a terrorist and criminal, even if the entire tribe denounces me.


That leads me to the first specific subject: are we, the refuseniks,
being persecuted and denounced, or are we enjoying the wonderful
Israeli tolerance and democracy and exploiting it to make trouble?
Well, I must admit that this is not yet the USSR or Pinochetís Chile,
and at least the Jews here enjoy a relative democracy (describing
it as vibrant or tolerant would be a gross error, but that is a
different subject altogether; maybe in another letter). I first must
point out that the government and IDF also enjoy the image of
'letting us speak', and it serves them well. Secondly, in a rather
sophisticated manner the establishment (with the generous and
voluntary help of the mass media) is effectively shutting us up.


The media has decided for us that there is no opposition. Thus, a
demonstration of 20,000 is reported in 5 seconds at the late-night
edition, and a demonstration of 500 outside a military prison is
completely ignored. The fact that right now there are over a dozen
refuseniks in jail ñ the largest number in twenty years ñ is hidden
from the Israeli public. The story of Captain (res.) Itai Haviv
and Sergeant (res.) Yair Yeffeth, who demanded a full military
trial in which they could prove that refusal is innocence and that
the order to serve in the Territories is illegal, was not told
anywhere except for a brief mention in the back pages of Haaretz.
So the public, of course, didnít learn that the IDF evaded answering
these demands, and that Itai Haviv will spend the Seder night in
prison following a ëdisciplinary hearing.í I hope the readers are
intelligent enough to know that if the media wanted, these stories
would make the headlines.


Still, you keep hearing about us. Thatís the key word, ABOUT us. But
you donít hear us. You just hear people explaining, analyzing, mostly
(in a ratio of 99 to 1) attacking us. We have become the perfect
'hate hour' figures, to reunite the tribe against (have you read
1984?) Petty ëvolunteerí groups who organized against us, a mayor
who called upon local governments not to hire us, and a group of
industrialists who called employers to fire us, have all won their
moment in the spotlight. No one cared to mention that these are
blatantly illegal calls (no, ëthe lawí is remembered only when
we 'break' it). No one has tried to set limits to this discussion.


Moreover, the prime minister in one of his rare public addresses
blamed us for the wave of terror (us, not his catastrophic policies).
The IDF chief of staff canít stop talking about us; he sees us as a
bunch of inciters with a hidden agenda. So, ironically, the only
thing protecting us from long-term ëgulagí imprisonment and from
losing our jobs is public opinion ñ the rather large pockets of
support and sympathy among key sectors in the Israeli public, and
yes, support ads such as the one published by Tikkun. The moment
the government or IDF will think the lights are out, and no one
sees or cares ñ they will find or invent the 'legal' clause (Israeli
politicians are experts in this) and throw those they believe to be
our ëleadersí to jail for long terms. Remember, even poor Abie Nathan
was thrown in for two years, just because he dared speak with PLO
personnel about peace.


But that's nothing, because the moment our government will sense a
"lights out" situation - a huge terror attack, an American attack on
Iraq - there will be a horrible bloodbath in the Territories,
compared to which the last year and a half will be remembered as
a happy picnic. And that brings me to the second specific issue,
that of the Nazi allusion.

Some readers thought that the way the Tikkun ad said "obeying orders"
was an allusion to Nazi murderers' claim that they were "just obeying
orders." Rabbi Lerner has rightly pointed out to these readers,
that automatic execution of orders is a characteristic of all
dictatorship, not just the Nazi one, while refusal on moral grounds
is a sign of democracy. I agree, but let me be less polite and
politically correct. After all, itís just my country thatís going
up in smoke as I write. What is this? Does Israel have the exclusive
monopoly of labeling all its rivals as Nazis, and everyone else has
to shut up, even when reality starts speaking for itself?


Parties that support the essentially Nazi idea of deporting all
Palestinians from the country, have been part of our Knesset and
our "legitimate" political map since 1984. Recent opinion polls
show that 35% of the Jewish public now supports this ësolutioní, as
it is sometimes called. Leaders, Rabbis, and just plain folk feel
free to call openly in the mass media to eradicate Palestinian cities
with or without their tenants. Last weekend, Gen. (res.) Effi Eitam,
fresh out of the military and all ready to take the leadership of
the religious public and become a deputy or alternative to Netanyahu,
received a flattering cover story on Haaretz supplement. He unfolded
his chilling ideology, calling to expel those Palestinians who don't
want to remain in the Galilee and West Bank as serfs, to Jordan,
and from Gaza to Sinai. And he said this: why should us, the country
poorest in land resources, bear the burden of solving the Palestinian
problem? Well I donít know about you, but I remember some of the
Nazi rhetoric in that dark period between the Kristallnacht of 1938
and the beginning of the war, when Jews were expelled from Germany
but could find no safe haven anywhere else. When I see a retired
IDF general and rising political star use the exact same Nazi
rhetoric on Israelís most ëliberalí newspaper, without any criticism
by his interviewer or the editors ñ my hair just stands on my head
in horror.



Letís move from the political scene back to the ground. My friend,
Captain (Res.) Dan Tamir, decided to refuse to serve in the
Territories about a year ago, after he realized what heíd done as a
reserve regimentís intelligence officer a few weeks before that. He
realized he had laid out the plans to convert a large Palestinian
town into a closed ghetto. You can find his full statement on our
website, www.seruv.org.il. The vast majority of Palestinians in the
Territories now starve in such ghettos; in those days of mercy when
they are allowed to leave them by foot and perhaps catch a taxi,
these taxis are forbidden from using most of the paved roads in the
region


But why listen to a "leftist"? Letís hear it from senior IDF officers.
One of the top commanders in the Territories was quoted in Haaretz
(Jan. 25) as saying that in order to prepare for potential battles
in dense urban neighborhoods, the IDF must learn, if necessary, how
the German army ëoperatedí in the Warsaw Ghetto. A week later, the
reporter confirmed this quote and the fact that this is a widespread
opinion in the IDF, and went further to morally defend it. A small
number of people, including myself, tried to raise a scandal over
this. One letter to the editor was published in Haaretz. A much
tougher letter, which I wrote, was never published, nor was my plea
for a phone discussion with an editor ever answered. The issue just
died down. No one in Israel or in the Jewish public abroad was
interested. Where were all these holy souls, who now scold Tikkun
because they indirectly allude to the Nazi horror, where were they
all when a senior IDF officer proudly called, ìin order to beat the
Palestinians, let's be Judo-Nazisî?


In my letter to Haaretz I went further. Knowing the IDF mentality
and adding one to one, I concluded that the IDF is operationally
prepared to invade refugee camps ñ an utter, indefensible war crime
- and through this leak to the press it is starting to pressure the
government and prepare the public opinion for the invasion. The l
etter was not published. It was sent on February 2. A few weeks
later we all saw the horrors of the refugee camp invasions and
the bloody revenge attacks that followed culminating on Passover eve.
And you know what? Army generals and colonels morally and
professionally pat themselves on the back, because these invasions
"prevented terror", and killed only dozens and not thousands. (Note:
in fact, the major reason limiting the bloodshed was the "terrorists"
responsible decision not to turn the camps into all-out
battlegrounds. But this may change in the next round.)

In truth, I have little hope that the Israeli public will wake up.
The Israeli public, in its fear and confusion, has made a decision
(aided by the politicians and mass media) to go to sleep and wake
up only ìafter it is all overî. But it wonít be over, because while
our mind sleeps our muscles tighten the death grip, instead of doing
the only sensible thing (which requires an open mind) ñ which is to
let go. Will you guys join the hypocrite mobs who sing lullabies to
Israel and pounce upon the refuseniks, upon Tikkun,
to shut us up? Or will you finally take responsibility and be the
true friends that Israel needs now ñ even if it means not being "nice"
to Israel for a while?


As you sit tonight at the Seder table, please remember the dozen or
so refuseniks that spend this Seder in a military jail. More
importantly, please remember the thousand or so people, three
quarters Palestinians and one quarter Israelis, who were here with
us a year ago and have been murdered. Most of them could have
been here with us, if you and we had acted sooner. We have now
acted, done what little we can do. Please think of the many
thousands that may be doomed soon, if you continue sitting on
the fence.


May you have a happy Holiday of Freedom,


Please help us struggle free from fear, racism, hatred and the deaths they
produce.

Yours,
Assaf Oron



117 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGo Canada! From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2955 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (12 years 4 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1573 times:

and what do you want as a response?

yes these people shouldnt be attacked by other jews and every one is right to have an opinion. i dont see what your aim is apart from trying to start the normal israel bashing.



It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
User currently offlineMarco From United Arab Emirates, joined Jul 2000, 4169 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (12 years 4 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1563 times:

I agree with Go Canada!

emirateslover, do you get a kick out of bashing Israel?



Proud to be an Assyrian!
User currently offlineAvion From Bouvet Island, joined May 1999, 2205 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (12 years 4 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1560 times:

I absolutely agree!!!

Tom


User currently offlineRyanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 16
Reply 4, posted (12 years 4 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1554 times:

Blimey - that's a long post for something that is so obviously going to get deleted.......


I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
User currently offlineEmiratesLover From Malta, joined Dec 2000, 341 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (12 years 4 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1541 times:

``emirateslover, do you get a kick out of bashing Israel''

I'll tell you what I get a kick out of - exposing injustice and making people realize what horrific plight exists for Palestinians made to live under a brutal military occupation financed by American taxpayers.That the occupation is exposed by an increasing number of Israelis, Americans and Jews shows that even they realize what supporters of Palestinian rights have been saying all along...occupation and the injustices it brings is inherently violent and unacceptable.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21412 posts, RR: 54
Reply 6, posted (12 years 4 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1518 times:

There´s no "Israel-bashing" in the article. Criticism of current policy is not only valid, but often necessary in a democracy.

I must say, however, that I´m still shocked to hear that israeli forces openly look at nazi Germany´s occupation tactics, of all things, as a template for their own actions.

What else is needed to take a deep breath and reconsider what´s going on?!?


User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (12 years 4 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1512 times:

" exposing injustice and making people realize...and the injustices it brings is inherently violent and unacceptable."

In that case, carry on, Superman!

LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (12 years 4 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1505 times:

Why don't we find a Palestinian somewhere who has the courage to tell the murdering terrorists to stop their attacks on Jews? Oh, I get it, you don't really care about that point of view, Emriates.

User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (12 years 4 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1502 times:

Emriates, if someone came up and asked you to strap a bunch of explosives on your body, to walk into a crowed Jewish shopping area, and blow you and as many of them up, what would your response be?

Do you think this is a noble and worthy sacrifice? Or do you think the taking of such innocent like is abhorrent and below contempt?

I'd really be interested in your answer.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21412 posts, RR: 54
Reply 10, posted (12 years 4 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1495 times:

Alpha 1, have you even bothered to read the article, this time?

One of the tough things in growing up is recognizing it´s not good enough to just point a finger at the other side and crying "it´s all their fault!"

There are real people out there dying. Sandbox-revenge behaviour just won´t do!


User currently offlineAh727 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (12 years 4 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1491 times:

It´s amazing to see that users of this forum start to accuse others of things they haven´t mentioned in their posts

User currently offlineAmerican_4275 From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1076 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (12 years 4 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1491 times:

Klaus,
One of the tough things in growing up is recognizing it´s not good enough to just point a finger at the other side and crying "it´s all their fault!"

There are real people out there dying. Sandbox-revenge behaviour just won´t do!



That was a brilliant reply. Thank you, you made me happier knowing that someone has something insightful to say instead of just the constant finger-pointing and the bickering about whose fault it is.

Regards,
American_4275


User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (12 years 4 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1479 times:

There are real people out there dying. Sandbox-revenge behaviour just won´t do!

Yeah, the real people dying right now are Jews, at the hands of these madmen. So don't accuse me of pointing any fingers-I'm just pointing out the facts.

And save your fatherly speech about growing up for someone who needs it, Klaus. I don't need to be lectured by someoene like you, thank you very much.


User currently offlineAmerican_4275 From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1076 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (12 years 4 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1467 times:

Alpha1:
Yeah, the real people dying right now are Jews, at the hands of these madmen

Is that to say innocent Palestinians dying every single day from Israeli fire are not "real people" and that the only "real people" dying are the Jews?


So don't accuse me of pointing any fingers

That's basically what you just did in your last post.


User currently offlineSjc>sfo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (12 years 4 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1454 times:

Frankly I don't see how this changes the fact that a huge number of these Palestineans are dirty terrorist scum.

User currently offlineRogueTrader From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (12 years 4 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1441 times:

something that is so obviously going to get deleted.......

There's nothing against the rules in the post. Deletion is not for use against something you don't like or don't agree with. Quite obviously, a lot of people don't want both sides of this story told.

There´s no "Israel-bashing" in the article. Criticism of current policy is not only valid, but often necessary in a democracy.

Well, criticism is valid unless its criticism of Israel, then its not allowed. According to some, only those who are anti-semetic, pro-terrorist, or otherwise extremist would ever criticize Israel.

kind regards,

RogueTrader


User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (12 years 4 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1429 times:

There's nothing against the rules in the post. Deletion is not for use against something you don't like or don't agree with.

Yeah, right! I get deleted all the time if some fob on here gets "offended" by what I say about him or her!! ROTFL!

Well, criticism is valid unless its criticism of Israel, then its not allowed. According to some, only those who are anti-semetic, pro-terrorist, or otherwise extremist would ever criticize Israel.

How is that, Rogue? You critisize Israel here all the time, don't you? And why should I think your views are "valid" when I think they're full of crap? LOL.

And guess what, I've critisized Israel in the past, but what you do goes far beyond criticism: you are on here arguing FOR the dismantalement of the State of Israel. I think that makes you anti-semetic.




User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21412 posts, RR: 54
Reply 18, posted (12 years 4 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1423 times:

Sjc>sfo: Frankly I don't see how this changes the fact that a huge number of these Palestineans are dirty terrorist scum.

With the selective coverage most of our countries get, it´s no wonder you come to think that. Even with the selection more being oriented for "newsworthyness" than by ill will, it still gives a distorted picture.

Even if it were true: How could that be? Did the jewish settlers innocently set foot in a country that happened to be populated by murderous madmen who just waited to show "their true colors"? Subhuman man-eating killing machines, just good enough to be slaughtered by the dozen? Is that really what you think?

And if not, what would be the consequence?


User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (12 years 4 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1422 times:

With the selective coverage most of our countries get, it´s no wonder you come to think that.

Actually, Klaus, many of us feel that way because of the daily suicide bombings that are taking place with regularity in Israel, not because of some excuse like "selective coverage" as you give us.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21412 posts, RR: 54
Reply 20, posted (12 years 4 months 4 days ago) and read 1413 times:

Alpha 1: Actually, Klaus, many of us feel that way because of the daily suicide bombings that are taking place with regularity in Israel, not because of some excuse like "selective coverage" as you give us.

The bombings are wrong, outrageous and the responsible persons (those that survived, that is) must be punished. No dissent here.

Where we differ is that I don´t believe that this is enough to ignore the other side.

No injustice makes another injustice disappear.

If that were so, you could justify the occupation of Europe by nazi Germany with the fact that actually some of the occupated dared to resist. Or the occupation of America with the resistance by the natives.

Both would be an insult to the victims.

Israel is not nazi Germany, of course. But with respect to the occupation, Sharon seems to be headed towards a political and moral desaster that would be especially tragic for the only jewish state.


User currently offlineADG From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (12 years 4 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1397 times:

God that was a lot of words!

However, there is a phenomenon that we are familiar with mentioned above and that is the habit of *some* people to attack anything they see as Anti Semetic.

Even if it is an opinion or a thought they will jump upon you and scream at you with finger pointing and name calling. Makes you wonder really what they are actually upset about, your opinion or the fact that you are calling them out for what they are.

We see this phenomenon in these forums ...


VH-ADG


User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (12 years 4 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1387 times:

Here are a couple other "phenomenons" encountered on ME discussions:

- Making up crazy allegations and then failing to reply to questions about them (hint, hint)

- Labeling oneself an anti-semite so he/she can whine and complain about it, taking the spotlight away from the real issues, on which he/she has no real opinions and nothing constructive to contribute

LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineKolobokman From Russia, joined Oct 2000, 1180 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (12 years 4 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1380 times:

Alpha 1

I want a world free from terror and extremism!
Does that make me anti-semitst?
What if making one part of the world free of terrorism involves dismantalement of the State of Israel? Does that make me anti-semit?



I can neither confirm, nor deny above post
User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (12 years 4 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1377 times:

However, there is a phenomenon that we are familiar with mentioned above and that is the habit of *some* people to attack anything they see as Anti Semetic.

Even if it is an opinion or a thought they will jump upon you and scream at you with finger pointing and name calling. Makes you wonder really what they are actually upset about, your opinion or the fact that you are calling them out for what they are.

We see this phenomenon in these forums ...


And, however, there is a phenomenon that we are familiar with that is the habit of *some* people to attack anything they see as pro-American or pro-Israeli.

Even if it asn opinon or a thought they will jump upon you and scream at you with finger pointing and name calling. Makes you wonder really waht they are actually upstet about, your opinion or the or the fact that you are calling them for what they are.

We see this phenomenon in these forums...

Gosh, ADG, I was thinking the same thing-except in the other direction. Sucks to be accused of the very same phenomonon, doesn't it, dear?  Big thumbs up


25 FlyBoeing : Here's my response: Yes, Israel is an imperfect democracy. Yes, some of their occupation tactics are nasty and bad. And they ought to withdraw from th
26 Jamesag96 : Killing innocent people is wrong either way, either way. The palestinians are by no means freedom fighters when they send an 18 year old girl to blow
27 Jamesag96 : Tacky I know, but what is the total dead so far for the last 17 or so months? If I remember correctly it is approx. 350 Israelis and 1100 Palestinians
28 Hepkat : I suppose this is the heart of the contention: it's Isreal's fault, because they exist, isn't it It's not that Israel doesn't have the right to exist.
29 Go Canada! : and hepkat your supporters must understand one thing and one thing only. The palestinian authority doesnt want peace and is backing the suicide bomber
30 Go Canada! : ps-the latest suicide attack by hamas has managed to kill non-jewish israeli arabs! pps-what about the arabs, hepkat and hizzbollah, it wasnt their la
31 Us330 : "I'll tell you what I get a kick out of - exposing injustice and making people realize what horrific plight exists for Palestinians made to live under
32 Hepkat : Uninhabited? Now really? You very well can't have refugees if they didn't live somewhere, now can you? Bought the lands? From whom? Shady deals in the
33 Alpha 1 : Those who lend their unconditional support to Israel should try to understand that you can't take a person's land (whether in the name of religion or
34 Twaneedsnohelp : We can not and should not condone acts of terrorism, but it would be foolish not to look at the causes of such terrorism. Brute military force has nev
35 Hepkat : The former clearly preceeded the latter.
36 Alpha 1 : So, does that mean the latter is justified, Hepkat? Twaneedsnohelp, excellent post. Fact is, there has never been a "peace movement" in the Palestinai
37 Tbar220 : Emirateslover, I want you do this, right now. Get a kick out of this. Expose the injustice and make people realize what a horrific plight exists for t
38 Jiml1126 : Not a bad post. Israel Government has gone too far.They're acting like the terrorists. I think there's nothing to do with the Jews. They're innocent.
39 Tbar220 : Jiml1126, Even if you agree the Israeli Government has gone too far (which I disagree with), lets do what everybody says. What drives the government t
40 Hepkat : So, does that mean the latter is justified, Hepkat? Solve the former before condemning the latter. As Tom Friedman in today's NYTimes, they are not su
41 Tbar220 : Hepkat, it may have been the least convenient offer, but the fact remains it was the best deal the Palestinians got and probably will ever get. And yo
42 Hepkat : Oops, made a mistake. I meant to say: I've said time and time again that the Palestinians would have been much better served had they chosen a more de
43 Tbar220 : Hehehe, I was kind of curious about that when I read it, its not the opinion that you usually state in your posts
44 Hepkat : Hepkat, it may have been the least convenient offer, but the fact remains it was the best deal the Palestinians got and probably will ever get. And yo
45 Post contains links Kolobokman : http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/020330/168/1bw4r.html no comment
46 Post contains links Tbar220 : If that's how you play... http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20020329/capt.1017431398._mideast_israel_palestinians_jrl112.jpg http://us.news1.y
47 Tbar220 : I would post more, but the pictures on yahoo.com of the terrorist attacks on the buses, supermarkets, and restaurants have been flooded out by Israeli
48 Post contains links Tbar220 : May as well... http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20020331/capt.1017594799.mideast_israel_palestinians_jrl813.jpg http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.y
49 Mark2102 : Look at the way Israel fights and how Palestine fights. Israel does not just go into a heavily populated Palestinian area and just blow themselves up
50 RogueTrader : Listening to the Defenders of Dirtbags on here-EmriatesLover, RogueTrader, ADG, and the like, that's what you SHOULD believe. I mean, after all, they'
51 Alpha 1 : Its not important to me what religion anyone is. Israel and its supporters always try to make religion a part of this conflict to keep everyone's eyes
52 Kolobokman : Tbar220, We all have seen the photos of bombings and heard stories about that. But we don't often see the other side of the story-the Israeli agressi
53 Blink182 : What is the whole point of this letter? Let's face it, Barak offered 97% of the West Bank a few years ago and Arafat refused. He's had his chances and
54 747-600X : Sorry, guys - you keep violating the "post too long" thing.
55 Twaneedsnohelp : Why not! They were armed in uniform, and quite simply Arafats police have acted more as a terrorist militia then a peace force. They probably were sho
56 Tbar220 : These aren't ordinary policemen Kolobo. These are people perpertrating and carrying out terror attacks. They are valid targets in Israel's retaliatory
57 Twaneedsnohelp : If I remember correctly it is approx. 350 Israelis 420 pal. 420 people killed in the nihilistic pursuit of murderous violence against civilians, witho
58 Yyz717 : It's time for Israel to retaliate. No Western country would put up with suicide bombers. Why should Israel?
59 RogueTrader : It's time for Israel to retaliate. Which will lead to...retaliation. If a military solution is going to solve the problem the only wat it would work i
60 Yyz717 : Well, which non-military solution do you propose RT? Israel has tried peace negotiations only to have the PLO walk away. A military solution might wor
61 Jamesag96 : Hey TWAneedssomesleep, since you are all riled up why don't you tell me just how many Palestinian civilians have passed? J
62 Jamesag96 : This thing is the next Balkan Powder Keg, waiting to blow the whole damn world straight to hell and the fuse is getting shorter and shorter every day.
63 RogueTrader : Well, which non-military solution do you propose RT? One that comes to mind is something like this: Or should the Israelis and the Palestinians be pus
64 Yyz717 : This is where I disagree with you RT. Israel is a democracy, the only one in the region. Indeed, the only country in the ME that has a parliament wher
65 RogueTrader : Well, thats fine, I support democracy, and I'm all for efforts to encourage the rest of the ME to become democratic. But, I'm not going to force them
66 Yyz717 : Well, we should take sides. Israel represents our way of life.
67 Twaneedsnohelp : Hey Jamesag96, since you are all riled up why don't you tell me just how many Palestinian suicide bombers have passed? J You'll be surprised. Rogue...
68 RogueTrader : Well, we should take sides. Israel represents our way of life. That is the one strength they have going for them. But they have a lot going against th
69 RogueTrader : Do you not remember that it was 15 young Saudis who killed 3,000 Americans just six months ago? Yes, I remember this. And that relates to the problem
70 ADG : Actually, Klaus, many of us feel that way because of the daily suicide bombings that are taking place with regularity in Israel, not because of some e
71 Go Canada! : the concept of a peaceful palestinian is ailen to the palestinians adg, why cant you understand that israel isnt delibratley setting out to kill very
72 ADG : Somehow, that gets lost in the rhetoric of all those who are so critical of Israel. Just as the fact that the Palestinians have a legitimate grievance
73 RogueTrader : you are aware that there are more murders in the US per year than in Isreal? Many times more murders in the US. I've seen somewhere in these threads t
74 ADG : Tbar220, Tell you what .. why don't you do this? (i've just amended your request of EmeritesLover). Get a kick out of this. Expose the injustice and m
75 ADG : Israel is one democracy in a sea of barely-legitimate Arab autocratic regimes whose media publish anti-American hate praising Suddenly it all starts b
76 EmiratesLover : ``Emriates, if someone came up and asked you to strap a bunch of explosives on your body, to walk into a crowed Jewish shopping area, and blow you and
77 ADG : GoCanada, Condemning a whole community because of the actions of a minority is called RACISM and is deplored in any freethinking country, particularly
78 Alpha 1 : Yes Alpha1, I do support the Palestinians. The peaceful ones who NEED peace in their country. I have never supported the terrorists so I can only assu
79 Alpha 1 : ...and for that matter what about the 50,000 highway deaths every year in the US? Wouldn't most Americans rather see this figure reduced than support
80 Alpha 1 : EmriatesLover, I did not pose the question, but thank you for an honest answer.
81 Go Canada! : oh adg, im not even from canada!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ha ha ha on a serious note, where are the peaceful palestinians? hatred cannot be reserved, the objectiv
82 RogueTrader : You, RogueTrader, EmriatesLover ... are against the continued existence of the State of Israel I'm not against the continued existence of Israel, but
83 RogueTrader : On BBC World, 11:13am CST, 17:13 GMT Live, right now, they are talking via telephone to Mr. Mustafa Barghouthi in Ramallah. (I tried to type everythin
84 Go Canada! : rouge....errmmm point? Britains trying diplomacy but the arabs always tell it to go away, they dont listern, the fact remains israel is seen as the go
85 Haveric : I am totally in favor of Palestinians not having to sit in fear in their schools, homes, mosques, etc. However, by continuing to support terrorism and
86 ADG : ADG, dear, Alpha1, CHILD, keep your attempts at being demeaning to youself. I too support the peaceful Palestinians, but where the hell are they? They
87 ADG : on a serious note, where are the peaceful palestinians? Askedd an answered. hatred cannot be reserved, the objective of the terrorists is to main, but
88 ADG : I am totally in favor of Palestinians not having to sit in fear in their schools, homes, mosques, etc. However, by continuing to support terrorism and
89 Post contains images LY744 : So ADG, what was it that you were saying about witnessing IDF soldiers stripping Palestinian men and excecuting them? You know, the stuff I've asked y
90 Post contains images Alpha 1 : My feelings for or against Israel are the same as those for or against Paraguay or any other random little country that has negligible importance to t
91 ADG : LY744, I haven't seen a previous request for that link, but then I dont bother reading all the replies (otherwise i'd be in the forums all day!) Let m
92 Post contains images Alpha 1 : What a silly boy you are .. I wonder why I bother responding to you at all. You either simply don't have the capacity to comprehend what you are told
93 RogueTrader : yesterday in Australia there were massive Pro Palestinian peace protests here Pro Israel supporters: Why would the US's traditional strong ally suppor
94 Toda,Reisinger : pro-Palestinian peace protests ANTI-suicide bombings protests...?????... Oh, but no! "PEACE" and "SUICIDE BOMBINGS" go very well together...it's been
95 RogueTrader : Oh, but no! "PEACE" and "SUICIDE BOMBINGS" go very well together...it's been like that since the very beginning of this "peace process"! Fine, I agree
96 Go Canada! : adg so im a raicst? and whys that because i think the palestinian government doesnt want peace?but that makes are racist by stating the israelis dont
97 Twaneedsnohelp : Tonight I saw Israelis shooting at peaceful protesters, Israelis shooting at the Media ... Israelis shooting .... This is something that concerns me b
98 Petertenthije : Hope you do not mind me intruding, to answer your question: the IDF has not by my knowledge fired on the media, although they did threaten to do so. A
99 EmiratesLover : ``That is how Israel is portrayed in Australia also. There is an ever increasing anti jewish sentiment in the young in Australia. It's quite frighteni
100 LY744 : EmiratesLover, I'm sure you could tell us just as much about the process by which the Palestinians came to reside in the area as you can about the Jew
101 Alessandro : I wonder how long you would live in Iraq (Palestinans main financial supporter) if you refused to take part in things you find immoral and being a Ira
102 Post contains images ADG : I guess you just can't get enough of me, ADG Geez, that should frighten you enough to go out and get a restraining order!!!! RogueTrader, Apparently A
103 Hepkat : I find it very suspicious that Israel is trying to prevent journalists from covering their incursion into Palestine. What are they doing that they don
104 Wn700driver : I know this post will be outdated by a few days, (I only had time to read the top thousand or so responses, lol), but here goes. Who out there can hon
105 Twaneedsnohelp : Who out there can honestly say that they would really be saddened to see Isreal (as it is known today), go? People a lot richer and more powerful than
106 Twaneedsnohelp : I also find it most troubling that Sharon's denying journalists and diplomats access to Arafat. Whether he likes it or not, Arafat is an elected leade
107 Twaneedsnohelp : what more do you need? Just a direct link to the story. Thanks! 100 or so UNARMED, PEACEFUL PROTESTORS..... yes But they weren't peaceful. They were i
108 ADG : Twa, You're statement above is so ludicrous I cannot possibly respond without causing a huge flame war, so therefore I decide not to respond. I will a
109 RogueTrader : Twaneedsnohelp said: People a lot richer and more powerful than a 737 pilot for a low-cost airline. Sorry buddy, money talks This reponse is the best
110 Hepkat : Exactly RogueTrader. TNNH, for the first time I'm beginning to lose respect for you. It seems as if you're resorting to desperate arguments to rationa
111 Go Canada! : hepkat, you a right in one aspect that it is unusual for the usa to treat elected leaders the way they treat arafat but most democratic leaders dont b
112 LY744 : "I find it very suspicious that Israel is trying to prevent journalists from covering their incursion into Palestine." The day you try to conduct a mi
113 Wn700driver : People a lot richer and more powerful than a 737 pilot for a low-cost airline. Sorry buddy, money talks. Hey, I resent that. It's out-of-work 737 disc
114 Post contains images Alpha 1 : TNNH, if you're losing respect from people like Hepkat, you're doing just fine in my book.
115 Post contains images Twaneedsnohelp : This reponse is the best I've seen from the pro-Israeli group because its honest Everything I say is honest. So, by extrapolation, everything I say is
116 Twaneedsnohelp : Thanks Alpha. TNNH
117 ADG : In Israel's eyes, Arafat is nothing but the leader of a terrorist organization and an enemy of the state and if it is in their national security to is
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