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Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks  
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3032 times:

..and then they attacked Gaza - and a draft agreement that would have basically needed just some minor changes was "caduc"..
Erdogan had lengthy three-way indirect talks between Olmert and Assad just hours befor the initial attacks came.He was not informed by the Israeli side about the forthcomming raids.
An interesting article by Haaretz that could be part of the history-book's tales on how opportunities are missed..and that sheds some light on his behaviour in Davos,when he abandoned the panel discussion with Perez..
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1063805.html


Please respect animals - don't eat them...
68 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAlexEU From Serbia, joined Oct 2007, 1817 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3028 times:

What is your opinion on Golan Heights? The territory of Syria occupied by Israel.

I think that Israel and Syria will never find peaceful solution as long as Golan Heights is not returned to Syria.


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3503 posts, RR: 17
Reply 2, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3017 times:
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Quoting AlexEU (Reply 1):
What is your opinion on Golan Heights

If there is a peace accord then it should be returned to Syria.Simple.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 3, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3006 times:



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 2):
If there is a peace accord then it should be returned to Syria.Simple.

Not 'simple' any more, SOBH151. I only found out recently (thanks to the Internet) that the Israeli Government didn't just 'occupy' the Golan Heights - they knocked down all the buildings, 're-subdivided' all the land, and then sold it (technically, ground-leased it) to Israeli settlers.

They've done exactly the same thing in all the other 'territories' occupied during the 1967 War, and in land seized since.

So any 'deal' with Syria will involve massive compensation payments both to the 'settlers' who were leased land that didn't belong to Israel, AND the Syrians who were driven out and dispossessed, and had their houses knocked down.......

I honestly can't see any Israeli government, however 'peace-minded' it may claim to be, facing up to a multi-million-dollar bill like that. To say nothing of turning the Israeli Army loose on all those militant 'settlers' who've paid good money for the land they occupy........

I expect any new Israeli government to go on doing what ALL Israeli governments have been doing for decades. Just 'play for time'.......



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3503 posts, RR: 17
Reply 4, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2982 times:
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Well NAV20 then the Israeli government should pay for there mistakes.They sold a land that they do not own.As for playing foe time, what's new.They did that with Egypt in the case of Taba and they lost in int'l court.If Israel really wants peace then she have to find a way.


I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineRadiopolitic From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 113 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2955 times:



Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
and that sheds some light on his behaviour in Davos,when he abandoned the panel discussion with Perez..

While this may have played a part in his actions at Davos. He may have used this to bolster his domestic popularity, which had fallen in recent months, in light of coming municipal elections. It has definitely worked.

Probably just utilized a good opportunity.


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3503 posts, RR: 17
Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2953 times:
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Quoting Radiopolitic (Reply 5):
Probably just utilized a good opportunity.

Then he is a very smart politician.Good for him.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineAvi From Israel, joined Sep 2001, 943 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2942 times:



Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
Israel And Syria Were Hours Away From Direct Talks...

Do you have any idea how many times in the past we heard it?
It was the same thing with Rabin, Netanyahu, Barak and now Olmert. So what is really new?

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 4):
Well NAV20 then the Israeli government should pay for there mistakes

What about the Arab countries paying for them mistakes (or do you think they are all "angels")?



Long live the B747
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2916 times:



Quoting Avi (Reply 7):
So what is really new?

Bashar Assad is new !
His father was a blockhead but Bashar might actually manage to drive Syria out of it's corner and bring it back into the list of "normal" countries.If you don't see that things are changing in Damascus - you are either blindfolded or don't want to see.
Syria will have it's stock exchange-unthinkable under the old Assad !
Relations with Lebanon become less tense -unthinkable under his father!
The USA will send an ambassador again to Syria ..
But there is abviously relativaly biased information about Syria available in Israel,since not to many Israelis visit Syria.



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineAvi From Israel, joined Sep 2001, 943 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2891 times:



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 8):
But there is abviously relativaly biased information about Syria available in Israel...

I wonder why...

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 8):
...since not to many Israelis visit Syria

The problems are with the information Israelis who did "visit" Syria lately brought back.



One more thing you forgot to mention is that in the old Assad days it was unthinkable that Hezbollah would make a joke out of Syria, that they will do what ever they want.
Basically, Nasrallah does to young Assad what his father did to him.



Long live the B747
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3503 posts, RR: 17
Reply 10, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2869 times:
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Quoting Avi (Reply 7):
What about the Arab countries paying for them mistakes (or do you think they are all "angels")?

Not really,but neither side is.But i am talking about the Golan heights and what legal rights does the government of Israel have to sell lands that she does not own.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineAvi From Israel, joined Sep 2001, 943 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2841 times:



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 10):
Not really,but neither side is

No, neither side is.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 10):
But i am talking about the Golan heights and what legal rights does the government of Israel have to sell lands that she does not own.

The Golan Heights is our now (if you like it or not, it is a fact). The Druze in the Golan can elect and can be elected (and one of them was elected for the Knesset this week. Do you want to guess in which party? The answer will probably shock you). Yet, I want to remind you that there is no big difference between the situation in the Golan Heights and what was in Sinai or the Gaza Strip and we completely withdrew from both of them so there are no real problems if we decide to withdraw from the Golan (well, there are but we can overcome them).



Long live the B747
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3503 posts, RR: 17
Reply 12, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2828 times:
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Quoting Avi (Reply 11):
The Golan Heights is our now (if you like it or not, it is a fact).



Quoting Avi (Reply 11):
so there are no real problems if we decide to withdraw from the Golan (well, there are but we can overcome them).

OK.So you control the Golan Heights after you occupied it in the 67 war.Fine.Now if there is a peace accord you should return it to Syria as you did with the Sinai and Egypt.We are in agreement on those 2 points.Now what to do about the settlers is Israel problem and not Syria.Do we agree on that?



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineAvi From Israel, joined Sep 2001, 943 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2809 times:



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 12):
Now what to do about the settlers is Israel problem and not Syria.Do we agree on that?

Who ever said it should be / will be Syria problem?
When Israel withdrew from Sinai, it evacuates the settlers. We didn't leave them there.
When Israel withdrew from the GS, it evacuates the settlers. We didn't leave them there.
Why do you even ask?



Long live the B747
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3503 posts, RR: 17
Reply 14, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2805 times:
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Quoting Avi (Reply 13):
Why do you even ask?

If only our governments can agree as we do.Life will be great.Shalom



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 15, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2789 times:



Quoting Avi (Reply 11):
The Golan Heights is our now (if you like it or not, it is a fact).

That's an interesting notion, Avi.

On the same principle, can Germany therefore claim that most of Western Europe, the Balkans, and a good part of Russia is 'theirs'? Or the Japanese make the same claim relating to most of the Pacific?

After all, they occupied all those places for some years? And the Germans even established 'settlers' in the areas they captured and controlled - just as Israel has been doing?



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2783 times:



Quoting Avi (Reply 7):
What about the Arab countries paying for them mistakes (or do you think they are all "angels")?

What it boils down too is the Arab countries can't control or don't want to control the radical part of their population that can't stop lobbing bombs or strapping bombs to 12 year old girls. No talking is ever going to help. We are just going to waste more time with Obama and Iran now when we should just let Isreal do what has to be done. Everybody is to blame, nobody is to blame etc. Bottom line is the violence will not stop till someone is gone. If Netanyahu gets power he will get real heavy. Maybe it's time.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 17, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2778 times:



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
Bottom line is the violence will not stop till someone is gone. If Netanyahu gets power he will get real heavy. Maybe it's time.

NIKV69 - what exactly do you have in mind? Some sort of 'Endloesung', as Hitler called it?

A 'Final Solution'?



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25419 posts, RR: 86
Reply 18, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2768 times:
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Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
Bottom line is the violence will not stop till someone is gone.

Who?

There is no one person that can be "removed" to solve this problem.

For decades Arafat was demonized - oh, if only he were gone - and now he is gone and the problem is still there.

No amount of violence is going to resolve this.

As to "peaceful" answers, if Natanyahu still believes in the Jordanian Solution that just pushes the problem across the river and it will come back on itself, because this is about land.

And sadly, once upon a time, Jews and Arabs did live fairly peaceably together, in Palestine, under the Ottoman Empire.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2762 times:



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 17):
NIKV69 - what exactly do you have in mind? Some sort of 'Endloesung', as Hitler called it?

Uhhhh no.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 18):
There is no one person that can be "removed" to solve this problem.

Never said there was.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 18):
No amount of violence is going to resolve this.

No, because as long as Islam as a whole tolerates the violence we will have this cycle all over again.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25419 posts, RR: 86
Reply 20, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2759 times:
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Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 19):
Never said there was.

Hmmm?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
Bottom line is the violence will not stop till someone is gone.

"until someone is gone"."

Who's the someone?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 21, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2740 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 20):
"until someone is gone"."

Who's the someone?

You have been told it is not someone, then presumably it is a group. Difficult to argue with Nav's conclusion of the meaning in Reply 17.


User currently offlineRadiopolitic From Canada, joined Jan 2009, 113 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2736 times:



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 6):
Then he is a very smart politician.Good for him.

In some ways, yes. In other ways, no.


User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2723 times:

The forthcomming visit of John Kerry to the region-including Syria- will shed some light on the Obam administrations intentions to move along in the ME peace-project.
Kerry has been visiting Damascus already in 2006 -a visit much critizised by the Bush admin. when it happened.
Truth is that there remain open questions with regards to the Hariri investigation .I still believe rugue elements within the Syrian security apparatus have been involved but not neccessarily with the consent of Assad.The attack could not have been executed without help from within the Lebanese army neither..
Kerry has the blessing of Clinton and Obama for his trip-unilike the visit of Nancy Pelosi two years ago.We should knwo relatively soon when the new US Ambassador will move into Damascus.The question of Golan will be a topic and the current admin in Washington is clearly favourable to a direct talk scenario between Jerusalem and Damascus.Even Nethanyahu knows that .



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineAvi From Israel, joined Sep 2001, 943 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2686 times:



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 15):

Quoting Avi (Reply 11):
The Golan Heights is our now (if you like it or not, it is a fact).

That's an interesting notion, Avi.

On the same principle, can Germany therefore claim that most of Western Europe, the Balkans, and a good part of Russia is 'theirs'? Or the Japanese make the same claim relating to most of the Pacific?

After all, they occupied all those places for some years? And the Germans even established 'settlers' in the areas they captured and controlled - just as Israel has been doing?

Did you miss the word NOW?



Long live the B747
25 NAV20 : No, mate. I'm sure that Germany and Japan, up to 1944, reckoned that they'd achieved some sort of 'status quo.' But, of course, they were wrong. Rema
26 Avi : Well, nothing last forever. We do know the price of the peace with Syria. The question is what are we getting in return (peace is just a word, what's
27 SOBHI51 : If ever peace between Syria and Israel ever happens then that will be an easier and more relaxed relation between the 2 countries.Syrian are well edu
28 Post contains links Beaucaire : Avi- Syria has never been tied to any form of Islamic fundamentalism. The roots of the country are secular and none of any religions are prohibited wi
29 Avi : My dear Beaucaire, It is true that Syria didn't let the fanatic Islam to get in (Syria protected itself) but we all know that Syria is the main bridg
30 Beaucaire : Main concerns in Damascus currently are rather economical and less geo-strategic. The country will have to invest about 50Billion € into new infrast
31 Allstarflyer : According to who? Fortuantely, the good guys knocked them out of many of those areas. Possession is 9/10 of the law. Nobody wants that, don't you thi
32 SOBHI51 : International laws for a starter.All laws that i can think off,those lands belonged to people leaving there,Israel occupies,grappes the land,sells it
33 Baroque : That does not seem to be the popular theory in relation to restitution of property seized from Jewish families during WW II. Why the change in policy
34 Allstarflyer : Name a few. Name any that apply. Useless prattle and winded opinion is all to which it would amount. And what did the Jewish families do that provoke
35 Post contains links SOBHI51 : OK i hope UN charters and The Hague convention is good enough. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupied_territories Acquisition of occupied territories
36 Post contains links Beaucaire : Now that is a good one ! - ask the Arabs that used to live in Jaffa what happened to their properties after 1948..or to the Palestinians who's olive
37 SOBHI51 : If you go back to 67 war you will find that Nasser started calling the army after he sought that Israel was threatening Syria.It could be true or not
38 Windy95 : Possession. No. And they should not of gave back the Sinai Did the International laws stop the Arabs from repeatadly attacking Israel? What about the
39 Post contains links Beaucaire : They voted a law called "Absentee Property Law" allowing Israel to confiscate literally any properties they wanted ,once the owners were driven away.
40 SOBHI51 : Wow.Even for peace with Egypt?Question please,do you think that a peace between the Arabs and Israel is a good thing for all in the area?Or that Isra
41 Post contains links Allstarflyer : The UN is a toothless wonder at best, so, no, they're not (and neither is Wikipedia). And the Hague Convention (much like the International Criminal
42 Windy95 : The word "driven" should have allegedly put in front of it. How about it If the neigbors would leave Israel alone then there would have been peace a
43 Beaucaire : " target=_blank>http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/....html Now what do you want Rachel Neuwirth to write if not to defend the historic injustice do
44 Beaucaire : “It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took t
45 Post contains links Baroque : Wiki on the six day war. On June 5, 1967, Israel launched a pre-emptive attack[12] against Egypt's airforce. Jordan, which had signed a mutual defenc
46 SOBHI51 : And the two in between?Or you forgot that the Golan heights were seized in 1967/ One more time if you bring religion into this i will request deletio
47 Allstarflyer : Anywhere close to the Palestinian apologist you presented, Henry Siegman? Does he write for Haeertz? I guess the CFR needs at least one Palestinian s
48 SOBHI51 : Israel and you? Please refer to Baroque posting 45 to see who was provoking who.
49 Allstarflyer : Nope, and since you enjoy never letting facts get in your way, keep believing what you want. Please refer to post 47 for yet another accurate respons
50 Baroque : Oh dear, it appears that now Moshe Dayan is not a suitable source. This is getting a bit like Peter denying thrice. Does this augur a crucifixion perh
51 Allstarflyer : Clever, if unfulfilling, Baroque - the material you present, though, could easily be retrieved elsewhere - given our interaction here, I'm afraid I'm
52 SOBHI51 : Go ahead question.If Wikipedia,The UN charter,The Hague convention and last but not least Moshe Dayan himself are not good enough references,but you
53 Post contains links Baroque : So help me http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...61958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all General's Words Shed a New Light on the Golan By SERGE SCHMEMANN
54 Windy95 : With arab troops massing on the borders the Israelis had the option of waiting for the strike or shutting down the Arab Air Forces. Once again if the
55 Post contains links Allstarflyer : Of course I do - you simply need pay attention. So Moshe Dayan had a bout of guilt - maybe he had a bout of amnesia, too - the border raids were star
56 Mariner : I will. As I see it, it is about land. mariner
57 SOBHI51 : I really feel bad reading this.And not for me. But not Syria. For the million time NO it is not about religion. Major Charlie Hughes So who is he?and
58 Windy95 : So if a group of Muslims had formed the country of Israel in 48 with the blessing of the UN then the surrounding Arab countries would of tried to des
59 SOBHI51 : Any body whatever his religion was Muslim,Christian,Jew etc... who occupies other people land will be fought.And the invasion of Kuwait by Saddam is
60 Mariner : Not all Palestinian Jews were in favor of the creation of Israel, or at least, the way it was created. In 1946, two teenage members of the extremist
61 Avi : No, not at all. Well, by now you do know that there were fire exchanges (of course all because of Israel…). Do you know that on the morning of June
62 SOBHI51 : If you read history you will find that there was squirmishes on the Golan lines and according to Moshe Dian it was mainly provoked by Israel. Israeli
63 Allstarflyer : If you're going to make that challenge, it would help if you actually set the example yourself. Because when you serve up dingers like this one . . .
64 SOBHI51 : If you read my postings with open eyes and mind you will notice that i said after 48.Then i stopped at 67 otherwise i would have to mention your inva
65 Post contains links Baroque : I am not surprised that you do not present a structured argument based on that as the only reference I can find is in the summary chronology that sta
66 JM017 : They could argue the spoils of war. It has happened before. But if they are serious about peace, they should return the land. And the entire West Ban
67 Mariner : Jews have been persecuted throughout history, I suppose some would describe the Diaspora itself as the result of persecution, but it didn't spring fr
68 Post contains links Beaucaire : The most recent visit of senator Kerry to Damasus seemed have gone reasonably well,considering the statements voiced yesterday. ".. While we will disa
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