Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
GM: More Cash - Or Chapter 11  
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24964 posts, RR: 85
Posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3173 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Three months ago, GM was insisting that Chapter 11 was not an option.

Now, it seems, they've changed their minds. This WSJ article is subscriptions, but here's the guts of it:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123458663412987489.html

WSJ: "General Motors Corp., nearing a federally imposed deadline to present a restructuring plan, will offer the government two costly alternatives: commit billions more in bailout money to fund the company's operations, or provide financial backing as part of a bankruptcy filing, said people familiar with GM's thinking."

The article goes on to say that it is "a dilemma" for Congress and the President, because they risk seeing an "industrial icon fall into bankruptcy".

It isn't a long fall and I don't think it's a dilemma. Either way, it's going to cost money and saving 'em will mean just more money later.

I think they should file.

mariner


aeternum nauta
81 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19278 posts, RR: 58
Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3166 times:

How about Ch 7?

Or how about someone in Japan buys them?

Sorry, I'm sick of paying for corporate ineptitude.


User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6565 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3164 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

As many have claimed.. A tax break will save them


Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8373 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3161 times:

There could be a great American automotive sector, if the government would get out of the automaking industry. Hopefully the government will exit that industry soon. Then the real businessmen and women will have the opportunity to participate. Send out the clowns!

User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8929 posts, RR: 40
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3154 times:

Yeah, Chapter 7. . .

There's no dilemma.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineN867DA From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1001 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3136 times:

General Motors -- the next Pennsylvania Railroad Co?

It'll be interesting to see what the Democratic party will do about this. We'll find out just how important it is that the Big Three remain uh, the Big Three.



A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8162 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3118 times:



Quoting Mariner (Thread starter):
I think they should file.

A few small problems there.

first they get to dump their pension liabilities onto the taxpayer. Remember UAL pulling that trick?

GM has so much influence with their suppliers that some suppliers would also probably file - more pension plans moved to the tax payer.

The simple fact is that each filing cost taxpayers, creditors, shareholders, etc. and a company as complex as GM impacts a lot of entities.

The cheapest way out for the taxpayer is to keep them going, motivate them to clear excess inventory and support the shift to smaller cars.


User currently offlineTheGov From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 414 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3102 times:



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 6):
The cheapest way out for the taxpayer is to keep them going, motivate them to clear excess inventory and support the shift to smaller cars.

But how do you do that? The US Government can't motivate them to do anything. Nor can they force them to do anything. Why do you think CAFE standards are so low? (Clearly a case of the tail wagging the dog) And when and if they attach any conditions on loans, the Congress lacks enforcement capability. Therefore, enforcement, or lack thereof, is the key to the whole problem. Look at the bank CEOs on Capital Hill earlier this week. They know that Congress can do little to them so they just go up to the Hill, look sheepish and get shouted at, and then go back home to continue to do things the way they always have. And don't tell me Congress "forgot" to add restrictions to the money they lent the banks. Please! How many of those banks that got money from the U. S. Treasury also sent money to the Congressmen's PACs and re-election campaigns who were in charge of writing the bill?

I say let them file. We cannot, as taxpayers, continue to throw money at bad businesses. If we did that, we would still be flying on Eastern, Pan-Am and driving Packards and Edsels.



Always a pallbearer, never a corpse.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8780 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3097 times:

I'm all for ch. 11. That's what it's for.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 6):
first they get to dump their pension liabilities onto the taxpayer.

Once more reinforcing the stupidity of keeping pension responsibilities in the hands of the employers. The UAW resisted every attempt at replacing the pensions with 401ks and other outside coverage programs, and if they end up losing it all, as sad as it is for the individuals, you can't deny that there is a certain amount of justice after all.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8929 posts, RR: 40
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3091 times:



Quote:
GM considering Chapter 11 filing, new company: report

CHICAGO (Reuters) – General Motors Corp, nearing a Tuesday deadline to present a viability plan to the U.S. government, is considering as one option a Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing that would create a new company, the Wall Street Journal said in its Saturday edition.

"One plan includes a Chapter 11 filing that would assemble all of GM's viable assets, including some U.S. brands and international operations, into a new company," the newspaper said. "The undesirable assets would be liquidated or sold under protection of a bankruptcy court. Contracts with bondholders, unions, dealers and suppliers would also be reworked."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090214/ts_nm/us_gm_plan



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24964 posts, RR: 85
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3070 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 6):
A few small problems there.

More than a few and some of them quite large.

But three months ago, GM rejected the idea of Chapter 11. Now they are saying it is an option. Why? If it was wrong then, why is it possible now?

And why are they even offering the alternative of Chapter 11? if they have a sound, solid plan that makes sense, go for it, fight for it.

But I note that the UAW just walked out of negotiations for the forward business plan.

So I'm not convinced that either management or the union have bitten the bullet of reality.

The free marketeer in me says let 'em go under. I doubt that is politically feasible, for either party, but all I see at the moment is a company flailing around and a bottomless pit waiting to be filled with public funds.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3014 times:



Quoting Mariner (Thread starter):
I think they should file.

Of course they should of but CNN and MSNBC have furthered the "sacred cow" propaganda so that we have to believe GM employees are somehow more important than the millions of others losing jobs. Obama better not give these people one more cent.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 2):
As many have claimed.. A tax break will save them

Come on, can we dispense with the baseless attacks? GM is not a company victimized by the economy. They are a terribly run company that has zero money and zero chance to compete since their product can't compete. This coupled with a union that believes they are entitled to everything even as the company bleeds red have led to one ending. Either stop begging the government for money and file or go out of business. I don't want to hear about how old they are or any of that other crap. They are not above anyone else.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 5):
It'll be interesting to see what the Democratic party will do about this.

This is another huge test for Obama. If he dares to commit any more money that will surely just go out the window he risks his future. He better stand firm.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 6):
The cheapest way out for the taxpayer is to keep them going, motivate them to clear excess inventory and support the shift to smaller cars.

Do you have any idea how long it will take for them to even have a chance to be comptetive again? It's impossible, they are too deep in debt and too far gone. Enough already.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 10):
But three months ago, GM rejected the idea of Chapter 11. Now they are saying it is an option. Why? If it was wrong then, why is it possible now?

Well because GM lets the UAW bully them and lets them call the shots.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 10):
The free marketeer in me says let 'em go under. I doubt that is politically feasible, for either party, but all I see at the moment is a company flailing around and a bottomless pit waiting to be filled with public funds.

Why? It's better to just blow billions with no future in site? Don't listen to CNN if they go under we will be fine.


User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7967 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3003 times:

I still think that GM is quietly negotiating with Obama Administration officials on an orderly Chapter 11 filing that will allow a massive reorganization of the overly-expensive UAW contracts, an orderly reduction of the size of the company and protection for GM's various parts suppliers.

User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19278 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2979 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Once more reinforcing the stupidity of keeping pension responsibilities in the hands of the employers.

Really? You of all people are saying this?

I'm amazed because I agree with you. But again the government still needs to be involved even if pensions are made into 401K's because what happens when the banks that hold the 401K's melt down and the government has to bail them out?

Now, how about their healthcare? I'd rather that the taxpayer foot that bill in the first place rather than get into the expensive mess that happens when nobody has insurance.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24964 posts, RR: 85
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2959 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 11):
Don't listen to CNN if they go under we will be fine.

I don't much listen to or watch CNN, or any of the news channels.  confused 

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2955 times:



Quoting RayChuang (Reply 12):
I still think that GM is quietly negotiating with Obama Administration officials on an orderly Chapter 11 filing that will allow a massive reorganization of the overly-expensive UAW contracts, an orderly reduction of the size of the company and protection for GM's various parts suppliers

If only this was true, but something tells me it isn't. I still think the UAW will try to strong arm him.


User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13005 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2924 times:

I guess that the threat of Chapter 11 bankruptcy with all the problems it would create is being used as a form of extortion to get more money from the taxpayers. Until some relief as to the long-term costs of retirees is resolved, then the big 3 will remain in danger of collaspe and making the current financial crises even worse.

User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8780 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2902 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
Really? You of all people are saying this?

I argued for this point 20 years ago when I wrote my Masters' thesis, entitled "The Rescue of General Motors". Interesting that the document is just as up-to-date today as in the late 80s. Nothing has changed.

No company should be obliged to pay for anything regarding employees that no longer work there.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
I'm amazed because I agree with you. But again the government still needs to be involved even if pensions are made into 401K's because what happens when the banks that hold the 401K's melt down and the government has to bail them out?

A 401k is a seperate account, invested in a portfolio. It is completely seperate from the bank's assets. If the bank collapses, your 401k with its shares of Exxon, Dow and Microsoft are untouched.

The one change I would make to the 401k system is to convert a diminishing portion of the funds to insurance. In other words, early in your career, some 25% of your 401k deduction goes towards an integrated life and disability policy, so that if you die or are disabled before retirement, you get all the funds or more that you would have gotten if you had continued the 401k through retirement. As time goes by and retirement gets closer, the insurance portion would of course become smaller and smaller.

Health insurance on the other hand should be entirely in the hands of the employee (although an employer might negotiate a group rate for employees). Other reforms are needed, but that is the subject for another thread.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2848 times:

Guess that either the Russians or Germans will buy Opel, SAAB will closed down and
rest of the brands partied out in the US (for the rights to sell spareparts).


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19278 posts, RR: 58
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2844 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):

A 401k is a seperate account, invested in a portfolio. It is completely seperate from the bank's assets. If the bank collapses, your 401k with its shares of Exxon, Dow and Microsoft are untouched.

True, so then when Exxon, Dow, and Microsoft collapse? Can't happen? Think again. Who would have ever guessed that GM, of all companies, is about to become insolvent?

After recent times, I've decided that I will not be investing in any more stocks. I'm not in life to get rich, I'm in life to live comfortably. I would rather have a fixed interest rate that may be lower than the theoretical "long-term" growth offered by the stock market and know that half of my assets aren't going to evaporate overnight.

But the idea of leaving pensions anywhere in the hands of corporate America scares me.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8780 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2838 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
True, so then when Exxon, Dow, and Microsoft collapse? Can't happen? Think again. Who would have ever guessed that GM, of all companies, is about to become insolvent?

Basic portfolio management: Your money should be parcelled out between at least 20 companies in diverse industries. That's what mutual funds are for, if you don't care to take care of it yourself, or you don't have the funds to efficiently spilt your funds.

C'mon, this is basic.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
But the idea of leaving pensions anywhere in the hands of corporate America scares me.

And the hands of government scares me even more. Can you give me any examples of something that the US government has run well? Medicare? Social Security?



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7967 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2826 times:



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 15):
If only this was true, but something tells me it isn't. I still think the UAW will try to strong arm him.

I think it is true, because even the UAW fank and file realizes that if they want to save GM, financial sacrifices on behalf of the UAW will have to be necessary for now. We could see an agreement on the Chapter 11 filing possibly as early as the end of this month, primarily as a means to protect GM's part suppliers.


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2771 times:



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 16):
I guess that the threat of Chapter 11 bankruptcy with all the problems it would create is being used as a form of extortion to get more money from the taxpayers. Until some relief as to the long-term costs of retirees is resolved, then the big 3 will remain in danger of collaspe and making the current financial crises even worse.

Hold on a second, the big three are not in danger here. Ford in fact refused the money and will most likley be fine. Chrysler is in a bad way but can still probably survive and is in much better shape than GM. It is GM that is dying here. They burned through all the money we gave them, have a union that refuses to budge and nobody is buying their product. So let's stay in reality here. GM needs to file already to have any chance of surviving.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
No company should be obliged to pay for anything regarding employees that no longer work there.

True, I mean I think it's great that some companies can do it but when your GM and are deep in debt and not selling product well it's time to restructure.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
True, so then when Exxon, Dow, and Microsoft collapse? Can't happen? Think again. Who would have ever guessed that GM, of all companies, is about to become insolvent?

Major differences in the companies you described, GM has a ton more competition and is losing badly to that competition. Not a fair comparison.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 21):
I think it is true, because even the UAW fank and file realizes that if they want to save GM, financial sacrifices on behalf of the UAW will have to be necessary for now. We could see an agreement on the Chapter 11 filing possibly as early as the end of this month, primarily as a means to protect GM's part suppliers.

I sure hope your right but I won't believe it till I see it.


User currently offlineCairo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2768 times:

Let them go to bankruptcy.

It will either kill them off forever or allow a re-birth like Continental.

GM has so many terminal problems - more cash for a few months of life support is just more money down a black hole. Look at their brands - how many are there, 5 or 7? Why? There should be maybe 2 - regular and luxury. Their labor relations suck, and they are selling few cars to individual buyers these days - I heard more than half of their sales are to large fleet purchases like the government and rental car companies.

Bankruptcy is best, and why not just get all the pain done now while we're all in a pain fest anyway?

Cairo


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2763 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
But the idea of leaving pensions anywhere in the hands of corporate America scares me.

That was the best comment of the thread. Of course you got the brisk reply of what has the US Gov run well? Nicely phrased of course, because the real question is not whether the US Gov has done whatever well but has it done "whatever" better than private industry. And how daring to ask that question at this time when clearly few things have been run worse than US banks or indeed the US car industry.

I think one of the points Doc was making, or if not should have made, is that corporate America is not being run very well and nor is it being very successful overall. Obviously there are high points but how about the average?

But it was nice to learn that Exxon, Dow and Microsoft do not have competition.

Exxon certainly has competition and could lose to any of about 3 or 4 other majors at the present time and had it continued on its merry way of the past 6 or so years it probably would. Dow could easily lose out to another major chemical company. And I will bet that more than 50% of a.netters wish Microsoft would have a viable competitor tomorrow and that is even after leaving a certain German contributor out.

The US banks are being stress tested. I wonder what the result would be if the US economy was stress tested to see how many major bankruptcies it could survive. Not many more might be the quick answer. If it not the answer, I would love to see the arguments - numerical preferably - why not.


25 Dreadnought : Interesting how you omit the US Government. You do realize that the US banks and car industry would also be ok if they could print their own money. I
26 Baroque : I doubt if that follows. One of the problems with the banks is that the legality of what they have been doing is at best questionable. The car indust
27 MOBflyer : It would not bother me for them to file Chapter 7. They are only American in name, as the "foreign" automakers are only foreign in name. All are part
28 FlyPNS1 : Then they shouldn't sign a contract agreeing to do so. As for GM, they need to file CH11 and re-work their contracts. Obviously, there will be some n
29 Par13del : GM right now is so huge, so many factions that it is difficult to see all the parties concerned getting together to eliminate their own jobs. Do they
30 Ken777 : GM does sell a lot of cars & trucks, just like Toyota does. Both companies are hurting in terms of sales and both need to take action. Don't assume t
31 Post contains links StasisLAX : This is the height of short-sightedness and/or desperation by GM's senior leadership. They are looking to sell most of it's stake in the Chinese auto
32 RayChuang : I've said this before: GM will essentially be down to three divisions by the end of 2009 at latest in the North American market. It will end up lookin
33 StasisLAX : According to Reuters, GM appears to be ready to sell most of its stake in China to it's partner, SAIC. See my reply #31
34 Flighty : It wasn't wrong then. Those statements were like a drunk man telling the police officer "OCCIFER, ARRSTING ME FOR DRNK DRVING IS NOT AN OPTI... bleah
35 Post contains links Mariner : What car czar?: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn.../AR2009021500225.html?hpid=topnews WaPost: "White House Won't Appoint a 'Car Czar'" It was the
36 RFields5421 : Really - where did you hear this from a credible source in the past five years. GM sold more hybrids and fuel efficient cars than Honda or Toyota or
37 RFields5421 : I agree in principle that pension programs ought to be fully funded. Though that will put many if not most US corporations at a significant disadvant
38 RFields5421 : One other extremely bad consequence of a GM Chapter 11 filing - most estimates expect an additional 250,000-350.000 homes to go into foreclosure withi
39 ACDC8 : Question. Could these bailouts actually hurt GM by turning people away from their products? What I mean is, people not buying a GM product simply beca
40 UAL777 : I disagree. The new Malibu and the Impala are two of their best sellers. No. Well at least not for me. Im buying a 2009 Malibu LTZ in May. My current
41 Flighty : Sorry? Why will they have to? Can't they go broke like normal people? Ohhh, I forgot, these are special people. Other voters will be upset if they ar
42 Baroque : Then you do not understand the droit de seigneur effects of the residence of the big companies. In this case they are less interested in the first ni
43 JFKTOWERFAN : I nearly bought a GM vehicle last week and while the incentives are great, they refused to budge on the price. Good luck GM... Corey
44 Dreadnought : That has nothing to do with Medicare's health as a financial entity - i.e. what it brings in, what it pays out, and administrative costs. I don't thi
45 Aaron747 : That's the essential item right there. They will get the same treatment as the banks that have been outed for the frauds they are and were - possibly
46 RFields5421 : Right now workers in the situation of GM workers get about $42,000 per year as the maximum pension. Many, most get less than that. That includes folk
47 RFields5421 : No - the data available and reported in the media shows no buyer backlash against bailout money. Even Fox agrees with that. What does happen though i
48 NIKV69 : Great but the fact remains the Japanese product is beating them like a red headed step child. Oh please, the last 20 years GM has been a joke, they h
49 Petertenthije : Probably not for the consumers. GM's cars are getting better, and good deals can be had now. But I would expect suppliers and sub-contractors to be l
50 RFields5421 : Read the media reports, the statements by the companies and the interviews. Quit relying just on dumb radio talk show hosts - be interested in discov
51 KiwiRob : Why would you take the risk, if GM goes (and I hope it does) your resale will drop through the floor, parts and servicing will become difficult, you
52 RFields5421 : The UAW walked out of discussions over the retiree healthcare trust funds. Rather than dump retirees fully onto the Medicare system (and taxpayers),
53 NIKV69 : Oh yea they are not biased I don't rely and spin and biased statements. Just take a look on the road and see who is buying what. In fact I did a quic
54 ACDC8 : Ok, thanks for your views. Personally, I do think that there will be enough people not buying GM products (regardless of how cheap they are or how mu
55 RFields5421 : Well, I'm in Texas. There and my trips to Arkansas, Kentucky, Colorado and Arizona - I see plenty of GM, Ford and Chrysler products. True there are pl
56 UAL777 : The Obama administration will not allow it. Further, if they file it will be Ch. 11 not 7,
57 Mariner : At that time, they denied that Chapter 11 was a viable option. mariner
58 NIKV69 : Yes and I would venture to say the majority of them are the F-series truck and Silverado which lead in sales. Unfortunately people with daily commute
59 Flighty : Of course they "denied" it, but the "deniers" are welfare queens now. It's far worse than bankruptcy in terms of status. Their words count for nothin
60 Mariner : I think we are at cross purposes. I was responding to a poster who claimed the automakers were advocating Chapter 11 a couple of months ago. GM rejec
61 Flighty : Of course, sorry. Should have read what you were saying that much more clearly. You are correct in your point, as the records show ! Rgds
62 RFields5421 : GM rejected bankruptcy point blank as a survival possibility - but they were very public that they would be forced into Chapter 11 or possibly Chapte
63 RayChuang : In the end, I still think we will see a planned deal using Chapter 11 bankruptcy laws to clean up the financial mess, reduce the product line to what
64 Mariner : And the great debate was about why - why they couldn't file Chapter 11, why they were different from, say, airlines. Part of the answer to that has b
65 RFields5421 : There wasn't any real debate from anybody who could do math. From their information back in December, it would take a DIP financer willing to provide
66 Post contains links Mariner : I read a debate. I read several as outlined above. In any event, the WSJ now says it may happen: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123483084725295657.h
67 RFields5421 : So it is not GM floating the bankruptcy idea, but the administration demanding they include a bankruptcy contengency in their plans. Interesting.
68 Mariner : Since the WSJ seems to have varying opinions on the matter, I'm not sure that anyone can arrive at a definitive statement. mariner
69 Ken777 : My wife and I have owned both domestic and foreign card. Overall there has been a reasonable balance in terms of quality. BMW? Had a '68 2002 that ha
70 KiwiRob : If they file Ch 11 then bang goes your warranty, buying a GM product right now is a risk I would not want to take.
71 UAL777 : How so?
72 KiwiRob : It's a liability, isn't that the idea behind Ch 11, to reorganise and/or cancel/suspend liabilities, I would think the easiest liability to suspend w
73 RFields5421 : Chapter 11 allows the cancellation / voiding of contracts and money owed to unsecured creditors. A warranty is a contract, no better, no worse than t
74 NIKV69 : Of course because they thought the government would fold and give them money with a blank check. Until proven otherwise the UAW will continue to push
75 Ken777 : Warranty work would be a critical issue if GM files. Personally I believe that they would quickly make a statement indicating they will honor all warr
76 RFields5421 : Maybe, maybe not. Unlike the airlines, if GM goes into Chapter 11, the company is going to have a new owner. A new entity which is going to control t
77 Mariner : I don't think that is any surprise. I think it is a foregone conclusion. The only question is - which scenario uses the taxpayer money most effective
78 KiwiRob : Keeping the current management would be suicide, Rick is one of the major reasons why they are in the poop that they are in.
79 ACDC8 : Just a wee bit off topic here, but what does all this potentially mean for the 2010 Camaro?
80 RFields5421 : It is probably too late to significantly change a 2010 model which should be in dealerships in about six months - so they should start coming off the
81 Post contains links StasisLAX : "GM said it had accelerated its cost-cutting plans to include a reduction of its global workforce by 47,000 people this year and close another five U.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Air America Has Filed For Chapter 11 posted Fri Oct 13 2006 16:50:45 by Dtwclipper
Which Do You Hate More: Ironing Or Washing Up? posted Wed Jan 25 2006 21:57:41 by 9VSPO
Top Ten BK Chapter 11's In US posted Thu Sep 15 2005 00:21:27 by Psa53
Do You Normally Use Cash Or Credit Card? posted Thu Jul 1 2004 15:16:23 by United Airline
Paidsurveysonline.com, Easy Cash Or Big Scam? posted Wed Jun 9 2004 23:42:48 by SSTjumbo
GM Foods - Good Or Bad? posted Thu Oct 16 2003 13:41:33 by Saintsman
Dan Rather: No More Critical Reporting Since 9/11 posted Fri May 17 2002 00:32:58 by Eg777er
What Hurts More, Cuts Or Grazes? posted Sat Feb 16 2002 12:30:55 by EGGD
Best Full-size Truck- GM, Ford, Dodge Or Toyota posted Thu Jun 28 2001 04:54:13 by DC10Tony
More Accurate - Sat Nav Or Speedo? posted Sun Aug 10 2008 13:04:54 by Leezyjet