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Chavez Wins Crucial Referendum...  
User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2926 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2748 times:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7891856.stm

It seems that Chaves now has more time to implement his reforms and change Venezuela for the better. And contrary to some claims, he will still have to run for re-election just like in any other country, so its not like this is establishing a dictatorship.

Al in all a great day for Venezuela...........


short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3790 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2739 times:



Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter):
Al in all a great day for Venezuela...........

 no 



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 2, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2705 times:



Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter):
Al in all a great day for Venezuela...........

On the contrary. This is the first formal step for Venezuela to eventually become a de-jure neocommunist dictatorship. It's only a matter of time, until Hugo finds a way to suspend, if not eliminate the democratic process in Venezuela.

Furthermore, this will bring even more instability to the entire region, not just to countries like Bolivia and Nicaragua, where the neocommunists are already in power, but also in the rest of South, Central America and Mexico, where neocommunist groups are becoming bigger, more radical and even more violent (remember López Obrador in Mexico, when he proclaimed himself the "rightful" Mexican President on the same day Felipe Calderón, the actual election winner, was inaugurated as President of the United Mexican States?).


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 3, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2705 times:

Venezuela is still three years away from the next elections anyway, that by itself with him is an eternity. . .

An article in the Brazilian media says that 80% of Venezuela's economy is based on oil. If oil doesn't bounce back, he might have a tough time in 2012.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2926 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2699 times:



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 2):
Furthermore, this will bring even more instability to the entire region, not just to countries like Bolivia and Nicaragua, where the neocommunists are already in power

First of all its not like South America was a paradise when the leaders were all capitalists and pro-US interests. Their inability to tacke serious issues in their countries was the reason the current generation of socialist leaders with progresive and controversial views. Its good to have change. Secondly they are not communists they are socialists. Those are 2 very different things. Hell even many European countries have socialist leaders and politicians !!!



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9076 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2690 times:



Quoting Alberchico (Reply 4):
First of all its not like South America was a paradise when the leaders were all capitalists and pro-US interests. Their inability to tacke serious issues in their countries was the reason the current generation of socialist leaders with progresive and controversial views. Its good to have change. Secondly they are not communists they are socialists. Those are 2 very different things. Hell even many European countries have socialist leaders and politicians !!!

My memory may not be too good without some refreshing, but it seems to me that so called Socialist leaders in South America have not done too well by the people in past years. No one has in reality. Not a good idea for any country to relinquish the ability to control politicians time in office. That is why we have two terms here for the President. I wish it was for everyone, from congress on down to cities and towns.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineFrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3790 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2686 times:



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 5):
Not a good idea for any country to relinquish the ability to control politicians time in office.

 checkmark 

And it's not as if Chavez frenzied run for total and permanent control of the country is that subtle either. So called 'socialism' is certainly no reason to mute all opposition media channels and take control of the rest.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 7, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2686 times:



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 3):
An article in the Brazilian media says that 80% of Venezuela's economy is based on oil. If oil doesn't bounce back, he might have a tough time in 2012.

I certainly hope oil won't rise to the astronomical figures it had, or else Chávez will have regained the same thing that kept him in power all along.

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 4):
Hell even many European countries have socialist leaders and politicians !!!

Yeah, just look at what this caused in Germany the last year. It caused political chaos in the state of Hessen, making the country basically ungovernable for a year, because the Social-Democratic SPD, which campaigned under the promise to not get help from the Linkspartei (aka the Communist Party, the most recent name for the old DDR ruling party SED), broke its promise when the result put them into a dead heat with the conservative CDU. Basically, due to one party involving the SED, the very people that deny to this day that they ordered assassinations on those who tried to flee to the west, a federal state became ungovernable for a year. For them breaking their promise of maintaining zero tolerance towards the SED, the SPD has gotten the worst state election result in history and has dragged the party down for the upcoming federal elections as well.

Flirting with communists is the same as playing with fire: You can burn yourself at any time. And history has taught us that a socialist and communist rule means nothing but absolute failure.


User currently offlineAlberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2926 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2674 times:



Quoting Francoflier (Reply 6):
to mute all opposition media channels and take control of the rest

Venezuela is not like Cuba or North Korea. The media is free to bash Chavez all they want and believe me there are plenty of news programs and newspapers that bash Chavez on a daily basis. And don't forget about the power of the Internet...



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 9, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2666 times:

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 4):
First of all its not like South America was a paradise when the leaders were all capitalists and pro-US interests.

Yawn. You should research just how capitalists those military regimes were. Chronic abysmal monetary policy is yet another issue. Nine different currencies in Brazil in the last ~50-60 years. Lived through 5 of them before turning age 10.

[Edited 2009-02-15 21:03:56]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25834 posts, RR: 50
Reply 10, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2632 times:

Viva El Presidente  idea 

Now that crazy man got his wish via the ballot box, we should respect the wishes of the Venezuelan people.

If they want a country akin to North Korea and Cuba and become internationally isolated or form a leftist alliance let them. Hope they have a good time doing it.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineUAL777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1558 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2626 times:



Quoting Alberchico (Reply 8):

Venezuela is not like Cuba or North Korea. The media is free to bash Chavez all they want and believe me there are plenty of news programs and newspapers that bash Chavez on a daily basis. And don't forget about the power of the Internet...

Wrong. He has pushed people out of government positions for voting against him and is nationalizing every industry he can get his grubby little hands on. Hell, they have 15-20% ANNUAL inflation!

paradise indeed  Yeah sure



It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
User currently offlineFrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3790 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2600 times:



Quoting Alberchico (Reply 8):
Venezuela is not like Cuba or North Korea.

Give it a few years.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineOgre727 From UK - England, joined Feb 2005, 723 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2594 times:



Quoting Alberchico (Reply 8):
Venezuela is not like Cuba or North Korea. The media is free to bash Chavez all they want and believe me there are plenty of news programs and newspapers that bash Chavez on a daily basis. And don't forget about the power of the Internet...

What is exactly your point? you are referring to freedom of speech. The media bashes presidents in all countries. Wait! not in all countries. Cuba does expel or jail people who express their views against the government...

I do have to say, though, that this was a decision made by the people, so one has to respect it. I disagree 100% with their choice and in fact think that the same people who voted for him will suffer from his lack of ... well, this would be an endless list.

Anwyays, still, you have to respect the results.



Sigh
User currently offlineLufthansa411 From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 692 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2590 times:

Hey, as long as the people are happy, let Chavez lead for however long he wants. After all, government is created for the people, not against them (or at least in theory)

Time will tell whether this is a good "world" idea or not. But for right now, the people of Venezuela that it was the correct Venezuelan idea.



Nothing in life is to be feared; it is only to be understood.
User currently offlineJJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1864 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2580 times:



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 5):
My memory may not be too good without some refreshing, but it seems to me that so called Socialist leaders in South America have not done too well by the people in past years.

There's some refreshing: Lula in Brazil and Bachelet in Chile.


User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2574 times:

Oscar Arias Sanchez ,president of Costa Rica ,is to me the most well respected politician in the Middle/South American landscape.Hugo should take some lessons of political maturity from Sanchez. The outcome of the vote in Venezuela can not be disputed-the vote was free and no major incidents happened.But the bottom-line is that the Venezuelans voted not a Social Democrat but a hardcore militant socialist- which are two pair of shoes.
But we as outsiders should refrain from giving lessons to other countries,since our own,democratically elected leaders,are quite often not what they appear to be on the voting-posters.
Working into their own pockest is a national sport excercised by many "Western" leaders under their cover of respectability.The late Lebanese President Hariri was a qualified crook who amassed billions and drained the finances of Lebanon's reconstruction budget into his own "Solidaire company".
African leaders usually amasse millions within just months in power-where does the money come from ? Right-usually from US or European petrol or nuclear companies,pharmaceutical groups or agriculture multinationals.
Italy's Berlusconi is mixing state and personal business all day long,political bribery is national sport and the "people" just get brainwashed with sanitized political statements on TV to calm their anger.
What has this all to do with Chavez- simply that he is not much better or worse than his most likely contenders.



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 17, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2567 times:



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 7):
And history has taught us that a socialist and communist rule means nothing but absolute failure.

Yes those Scandinavian countries are in a truly scandalous condition - you will find that the same history book tells you that is why they are called SCANDinavian countries.  rotfl   rotfl   eyepopping 

There are limits to the levels of hyperbole you should use. Aside from anything else, Hugo, so far, has not actually been an absolute failure. Certainly not as much of an absolute failure as a rather right wing guy who was in charge of a country to his north??


User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2566 times:



Quoting JJJ (Reply 15):
There's some refreshing: Lula in Brazil and Bachelet in Chile.

Lula has a heavy burden on his shoulders by allowing the uncontrolled spreading of "Bio-Fuel" agriculture into the Amazon rainforrest. This is an absolute NO-NO-NO to do-but guess who is pushing this devastating stupidity to spread all over South America and Asia ??? - You would have thought that some politicians have kept at least some neurones in their heads-but it seems they're all vanished !
They sell the future of their countries and ecological balance to some multinationals.
http://www.wrm.org.uy/bulletin/116/Brazil3.html



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineMoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 4027 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2551 times:



Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter):

Al in all a great day for Venezuela...........



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 2):
On the contrary. This is the first formal step for Venezuela to eventually become a de-jure neocommunist dictatorship.

I disagree, regardless of the fact that this is Chavez - artificial term limits are horrendously non-democratic.

Why shouldn't the public be allowed to keep a politician in power if they support his actions?


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 20, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2509 times:



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 16):
Oscar Arias Sanchez ,president of Costa Rica ,is to me the most well respected politician in the Middle/South American landscape.Hugo should take some lessons of political maturity from Sanchez. The outcome of the vote in Venezuela can not be disputed-the vote was free and no major incidents happened.But the bottom-line is that the Venezuelans voted not a Social Democrat but a hardcore militant socialist- which are two pair of shoes.

While Oscar Arias may be someone who's good in foreign policy, he historically neglected the most important of things, which is domestic policy.

Oscar Arias is only good as an example of how to make better foreign policy in the region, but as far as domestic policies are concerned, he's just the same disaster as his predecesors were (including he himself in his first term between 1986 and 1990).

Quoting Moo (Reply 19):
I disagree, regardless of the fact that this is Chavez - artificial term limits are horrendously non-democratic.

In a parliamentary system, I'd agree, but not in a presidential system. Germany has no term limit for the office of Chancellor, yet the President of Germany can only be re-elected once. We're talking about a Presidential system, where the President of both head of state and head of the government. In that case, it can simply be too much power for a single person, which is why I agree with term limits. If we were talking about a Prime Minister or Federal Chancellor, then it's a different thing because the head of state and head of government are two different people, more in line with the separation of powers.


User currently offlineMoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 4027 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2503 times:



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 20):
In a parliamentary system, I'd agree, but not in a presidential system. Germany has no term limit for the office of Chancellor, yet the President of Germany can only be re-elected once. We're talking about a Presidential system, where the President of both head of state and head of the government. In that case, it can simply be too much power for a single person, which is why I agree with term limits. If we were talking about a Prime Minister or Federal Chancellor, then it's a different thing because the head of state and head of government are two different people, more in line with the separation of powers.

So? If they still enjoy the support of the majority of the general voting public, then why should they be forced to leave office?


User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6622 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2492 times:
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Quoting Moo (Reply 21):
f they still enjoy the support of the majority of the general voting public,

What makes you think Venezuela's election system is up to par? How do you confirm that it is the majorities desire?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineMoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 4027 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2479 times:



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 22):
What makes you think Venezuela's election system is up to par? How do you confirm that it is the majorities desire?

As I said in my original post -

Quoting Moo (Reply 19):
regardless of the fact that this is Chavez

I am against term limits in totality. If the election system isn't up to par, how can you confirm that the next person voted in is the intended winner of the election anyway? Term limits doesn't lessen that issue at all, because someone can always put a puppet in power and work the strings (think Putin...).

Term limits solve nothing other than forcing the voting public to choose someone else, regardless of whether or not they actually would choose someone else.


User currently offlineAM744 From Mexico, joined Jun 2001, 1780 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2467 times:



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 5):
My memory may not be too good without some refreshing, but it seems to me that so called Socialist leaders in South America have not done too well by the people in past years.

In Mexico, center-left governments have worked in the past. From the top of my head Lázaro Cárdenas and Adolfo López Mateos had good periods establishing some companies and institutes (infrastructure included) that are still relevant on Mexico's development (regardless of what ultra-market-oriented governments would like us to believe): Federal Commission of Electricity, PEMEX, National Polytechnic Institute, etc.

Those two guys did waaaay better that Carlos Salinas and Vicente Fox, for example.

I'm not comparing them to Chavez of course, for they were democratically elected (well, according to Mexico's standards at the time) and relinquished power after the legal 6 years period.

The point I'm trying to make is that you can actually work on your country's best interests and still be succesful. Governments can't be driven exlusively by economic criteria. There should be a social agenda too. I'm not implying Chavez is doing that, though. To me, his grip on power is questionable.


25 WarRI1 : We will have to see what happens with Chavez. It would seem that too much power is always the weakness and leads to suppression and curruption.
26 757GB : Fact - A majority of Venezuelans voted in favor of the referendum Fact - Democratic processes have been undermined for some time in Venezuela, shuttin
27 ME AVN FAN : - With my "Latin America experience" limited to a two hours walk-around in Matomoros and then returning back to Texas, I am quite the contrary of a "
28 Danfearn77 : This means he can now stay as long as he likes. He can now rig the votes and be allowed to stay in, whereas before he could rig the votes but he would
29 ME AVN FAN : - If I understand it correctly, he has to get into presidential elections each time he wants to continue. So that it is NOT a "life-presidency". Hope
30 PSA53 : Remember,Hitler was all smiles, gave autographs and received flowers on the campaign trail.Then he came to power and stop smiling.Rest is history. Ch
31 ME AVN FAN : - When he became Imperial Chancellor, he was head of a coalition government, as lacking a majority very widely. But he then "got" the Reichstag-Fire
32 PC12Fan : Now there's a shocker...
33 WarRI1 : Quite right, thanks for pointing that out. I got hung up on the Socialist type.
34 LTU932 : Exactly. And let's remember the similarities as to how both Hitler and Chávez got to power. Both tried a coup d'état, failed, were basically pardon
35 MillwallSean : This hatred for socialism or social democracy by some is disturbing. After all social democratic countries are consistently at the top of any comparis
36 Baroque : Now now, MillwallS, you know perfectly well that elections are supposed to elect the interests that are receiving vocal support in the west. You mean
37 UAL777 : What is fair? Chavez has used government workers to campaign for him. I am not saying he stuffed the ballot boxes, but I am saying that he is able to
38 757GB : I agree. Nobody is saying the election was rigged or a fraud. But there is a lot of groundwork done previously. Silencing the opposition is only part
39 ME AVN FAN : - He did on 2nd August 1934, and then, Hitler took over the function of Imperial President and re-named this function into "Leader of the German Empi
40 Post contains links Beaucaire : A very reasonable and measured reply-thanks for that ! In terms of democracy South America is at least one generation ahead of the Middle East. So ye
41 Danfearn77 : Yes, presidential elections still need to take place, but now he can just simply rig the votes, meaning he can stay as long as he wishes. He couldnt
42 ME AVN FAN : - This unfortunately is to be feared !
43 LTU932 : Incorrect. He did leave office on August 2nd 1934, but not through resignation, but rather through death. At no moment in time did Hindenburg resign
44 WarRI1 : Maybe, it just seems easier for Socialist, or people who claim to be, to more easily slip into a more Non-Democratic form of government. Marxist theo
45 Francoflier : I think it's the other way around. People who are enclined to reach a position of absolute power and undisputed control within a country, preferrably
46 WarRI1 : I agree certainly, that is what I meant, people who claim to be Socialist to give the people hope,( the people own everything, when in reality, they
47 Baroque : Quite so. Those from the left who follow that path are acting against socialist principles. Those on the right who follow it can point to their rule
48 ME AVN FAN : Totally correct ! As I meant D I E D and not "did". Sorry ! -
49 757GB : I know what you mean. If you want to understand how people are controlled you need to gauge their education and how much they are bound to question o
50 Francoflier : Another way to put it is that whenever you blindly believe that such or such politician, if elected, is going to do miracles to the country and insta
51 Baroque : But funny how there are so many threads that might as well be titled "The perils of Hugo" but none I remember on the "Perils of Berlusconi". And he h
52 ME AVN FAN : - What also is wrong, whenever only by 40 to 60 percent, is your assumption that people who vote in favour of political charlatans like Hugo Chavez r
53 Baroque : Fairly interesting distinction to draw between passing a law that basically says you can do no wrong and wondering if Chavez is going to make other c
54 LTU932 : Elections like every other year are hardly a display of democratic stability. There were only very few governments that actually survived a full term
55 Post contains links Baroque : Meanwhile in the clash between capitalism and whatever: And: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/biz/6270655.html Venezuela takes control of
56 Post contains links Lamedianaranja : This is what they do with votes in Venezuela... http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=5852502&id=831795471
57 ME AVN FAN : - I would call him "a capitalist thief". - - The governments in Italy changed so often, that "change" in Italy is the rule. What however proved to be
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