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GM/Opel Stake Sold To German Gov't; Saab Fails!  
User currently offlineStasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3287 posts, RR: 6
Posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 10843 times:

According to Automotive News, GM is trying to sell its Opel brand to the German government, while talks with the Swedish government appear to have failed to save Saab from bankruptcy.

"General Motors, on the brink of bankruptcy, may sell a stake in its Opel division as it attempts to cut costs and focus on its core brands back in the United States. The company confirmed in its recent viability plan that it will sell Hummer, downsize Pontiac, and stop building new products for Saturn beyond the 2012 model year.

Until now, however, there haven’t been any solid details concerning the future of GM's European brands, Opel (Vauxhall) and Saab. GM has announced that it is seeking to reduce costs further in Europe without resorting to firings and plant closings, and one of the options under consideration is selling a stake in the brands.

The information comes from GM Europe President Carl-Peter Forster, who told Automotive News that management is willing to consider strategic third-party partnerships, alliances and equity stakes in case such an approach is seen as beneficial for a viable and sustainable future.

There have also been reports that GM may sell its entire Vauxhall division, but a GM spokeswoman revealed that any sale would only concern Opel and even then it would likely be only a portion sold to the German government.

As for Saab, a bankruptcy announcement is expected to come tomorrow and production at the company’s Trollhättan has already stopped. The only activity that is expected to remain will be the fulfilment of servicing and warranty claims, which GM and Saab must comply with by law.

GM confirmed in its viability plan that it would pull out all financial support for Saab by the end of this month and yesterday the Swedish government also rejected requests from the Detroit carmaker to help prop up the company until it could function as a standalone firm."

Source: http://www.motorauthority.com/report...overnment-saab-to-get-the-axe.html


"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
133 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSeemyseems From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 971 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 10777 times:

Oh dear!

So whats going to happen to Saab now?

And Vauxhall too!?

Where I live, there is a large Vauxhall plant, they make the Astra model there. The area is famous for the Vauxhall plant and is a key employer to the locals!

I am a fan of Vauxhall and Saab cars btw!



seemyseems
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 10720 times:

The stupid thing is that Opel/Vauxhall (draw no distinction between them) are in better shape than the rest of GM.


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineLnglive1011yyz From Canada, joined Oct 2003, 1608 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 10717 times:

And so begins the reality that this isn't just a North American problem.

Such a sad state of affairs.

I hope all the people left behind with their GM pensions who fought for abnoxious wage increases for decades are happy with themselves.

1011yyz



Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
User currently offlineWunalaYann From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 10714 times:



Quoting N328KF (Reply 2):
The stupid thing is that Opel/Vauxhall (draw no distinction between them) are in better shape than the rest of GM.

I do not want to read too much into current press releases by car makers and government on the subject, but it could be that GM is trying to sell its valuable assets for something, instead of attempting to get rid of brands no one wants any part of (the list is long).

Curious to see what will happen to Holden which is in similar situation as Opel/Vauxhall, albeit with a minuscule market.


User currently offlineStasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3287 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 10715 times:



Quoting Seemyseems (Reply 1):
So whats going to happen to Saab now?

Sweden would be justified to declare war on the United States of America for what General Motors did to destroy the Saab brand - GM raped it, stripped it of its authenticity, debased the proud Nordic bloodline with Japanese (Saabaru 9-2) and American (Chevy Trailblazer 9-7) genes, and then simply left Saab bleeding to death on the floor. If the Swedes had nuclear weapons, we Americans would all be down in our basements with the shortwave radio and the cans of tuna fish right about now...

Personally, I thank the good Lord that all that the Swedish government can do is bomb GM headquarters with rotten lingonberries and leave critical bolts out of our IKEA furniture assembly kits.



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 10709 times:



Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 4):
I do not want to read too much into current press releases by car makers and government on the subject, but it could be that GM is trying to sell its valuable assets for something, instead of attempting to get rid of brands no one wants any part of (the list is long).

This is what GM has been doing for the past 5 years or so...DirecTV, EMD, EDS, HNS, several other profitable assets have been liquidated or sold off in order to pay UAW obligations.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineStasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3287 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 10591 times:

It's official. Saab is now bankrupt and been put up for immediate sale. But the problem is that no one wants to buy the automaker.

"Saab has filed for reorganization in a Swedish court. Saab is looking to secure $1 billion in financing to secure its status as an independent automaker.

Although Saab will continue to receive some support from GM and the Swedish government during the proceedings, the reorganization is intended to eventually setup the Swedish automaker as a standalone company. “We explored and will continue to explore all available options for funding and/or selling Saab,” Saab Managing Director Jan-Ake Jonsson said in a release.

“It was determined a formal reorganization would be the best way to create a truly independent entity that is ready for investment.”

Source: http://www.leftlanenews.com/gms-saab...organization-in-swedish-court.html

"Given its Swedish roots, and ability to maneuver in snow, Saabs have traditionally been popular in the northeastern United States. But Saab is G.M.’s worst-selling brand in the United States, selling 21,383 vehicles in 2008, down 34.7 percent from 2007. Its best selling vehicle is the 9-3, of which G.M. sold just over 10,000 cars last year."

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/21/bu...iness/worldbusiness/21saab.html?em

[Edited 2009-02-20 11:52:30]


"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 10535 times:



Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 7):
Saab is now bankrupt and been put up for immediate sale

-
I just checked the matter with an extensive article of the German TV (ARD=nr.1-chain).
-
> Opel is in urgent need of some 3,3 billion Euro. Talks and speculation centre around a possible part purchase by either the German Federal government and/or one or two German states, for example Hessen, where the Rüsselsheim central plant is located.
-
> Saab is in a kind of "Chapter 11". As soon as Saab will be out of GM, the Swedish government might be ready to get financially involved. Production is carried on normally. The management is now tracing for investors and should find a solution within 3 months. Speculation of course goes in favour of potential foreign investors.
-
> Opel, which produces about 10 times as many motor-cars than Saab (1,5 mio per year) will after its leaving GM be in a similar problem like Saab and will also need an outside partner. Experts speculate about Indian or Chinese partners for Opel.


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 10504 times:



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 8):
Opel, which produces about 10 times as many motor-cars than Saab (1,5 mio per year) will after its leaving GM be in a similar problem like Saab and will also need an outside partner. Experts speculate about Indian or Chinese partners for Opel.

I don't think GM would want to get rid of Opel. It's a strategic asset that getting rid of would be a big mistake. Opel is the source of much of their design talent and ongoing revenue. If they sell a stake to Germany, I believe it will be simply to get the investment.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3350 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 10433 times:



Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 7):
But Saab is G.M.’s worst-selling brand in the United States, selling 21,383 vehicles in 2008, down 34.7 percent from 2007.

I had no idea that Saab was such a niche brand. GM did really mismanage them. Saab would have been a great BMW/Acura contender if it was given proper attention. The Economist said something along the lines of "Saabs were long affiliated with eccentric individuality -- something completely alien to GM's management." I couldn't agree more.


User currently offlineStasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3287 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 10419 times:



Quoting Aa757first (Reply 10):
The Economist said something along the lines of "Saabs were long affiliated with eccentric individuality -- something completely alien to GM's management." I couldn't agree more.

Saab has been systematically starved for "in-house" engineering and development funds by GM senior management. Opel has been providing most of the platform development for Saab over the past 10 years. GM management only leveraged Saab's expertise in turbo-charged small-displacement powerplants, mostly for the benefit of their other GM brands, while they should have been focused on providing Saab with (much needed) improved mechanincal reliability.  worried 



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 10403 times:



Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 11):
Saab has been systematically starved for "in-house" engineering and development funds by GM senior management. Opel has been providing most of the platform development for Saab over the past 10 years.

I want everyone to contrast this with the treatment of Volvo within Ford. People talk about Ford jettisoning Volvo, but I don't think they will unless they have to. Volvo fulfills the same engineering role for Ford that Opel does for GM. Look at most of the GM passenger car platforms for the past 5-10 years...source? Opel. Look at most of the Ford passenger car platforms for the past 5-7 years...source? Volvo for medium and large vehicles, and Mazda for small ones.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8481 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 10372 times:

Maybe someone can look at the pieces being tossed around by GM and see intelligent opportunities.

How many years has it been since Opel was imported into the US? Late 50s? Early 60s? And how many years does it look like Saturn (selling Opels) have before closing? 1 or 2?

Why not leverage an excellent car (the Opels) with a group of outstanding dealers (Saturn)? How many cars that Saturn sells are actually Opels under a different badge?

Personally I would love to see Opel and Saturn married rather fast, let the two work independently of GM to determine the cars that are to be sold, including how many are to be assembled in the US.

During the same time Opel can provide engineering services to GM and Saturn/Opel cars can continue to use parts also supplied to GM, increasing GM's economy of scale and cutting the parts costs.

At some point the Saturn & Opel brands can be combined (we once owned a Datsun).

I don't believe GM should give up their European position, nor do I believe that Saturn dealers should get the shaft. GM needs to look beyond 2010 or 2015. They might be be able to do well in the future without Saab, but I don't believe they can without Opel and, to some degree, Saturn.


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 10354 times:



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
Why not leverage an excellent car (the Opels) with a group of outstanding dealers (Saturn)? How many cars that Saturn sells are actually Opels under a different badge?

Personally I would love to see Opel and Saturn married rather fast, let the two work independently of GM to determine the cars that are to be sold, including how many are to be assembled in the US.

What you're forgetting is that many Saturns are already rebadged Saturns:

Saturn Astra - Opel Astra
Saturn Aura - Opel Signum
Saturn Vue - Opel Antara
Saturn Sky - Opel GT

The only standout is the Saturn Outlook.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineStasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3287 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (5 years 10 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 10342 times:

Quoting N328KF (Reply 14):
The only standout is the Saturn Outlook.

And the Outlook CUV is an infamous "badge engineered" version of the Chevy Traverse, Buick Enclave, et al.   

I truly think that Saturn's dealer network will be sold (if not completely absorbed) by a major Chinese automaker like SAIC, Geely or maybe Brillance.

[Edited 2009-02-20 22:00:11]


"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7837 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (5 years 10 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 10292 times:



Quoting Seemyseems (Reply 1):
So whats going to happen to Saab now?

I see Saab surviving, they have two new models which are signed off and ready for production, the new 9-4 and 9-4x, production of these models being moved back to Sweden from Opel, this would be critical if Saab is to be saved. Saab employs 30,000 people in Sweden, I just can't see the Swedish govt allowing all Saab to die.


Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 4):
Curious to see what will happen to Holden which is in similar situation as Opel/Vauxhall, albeit with a minuscule market.

Holden is plugged into Daewoo and Opel for a lot of it's models, so it could always survive as an importer or an asembler of kits. However I don't think the Australian govt or the Victorian govt will allow Holden to fail, it's too big an employer and it earns export dollars.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 8):
Opel, which produces about 10 times as many motor-cars than Saab (1,5 mio per year) will after its leaving GM be in a similar problem like Saab and will also need an outside partner. Experts speculate about Indian or Chinese partners for Opel.

Opel produced 1.6 million cars in 2008, this is plenty big enough for it too become a stand alone manufacturer without needing a partner. Opel would probably supply vehicles and designs for GM should it become independant. Opel already have a number of partners they share platforms and light commercial vehicles with Renault/Nissan and share platforms with Fiat.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (5 years 10 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 10243 times:



Quoting N328KF (Reply 9):
Opel, which produces about 10 times as many motor-cars than Saab (1,5 mio per year) will after its leaving GM be in a similar problem like Saab and will also need an outside partner. Experts speculate about Indian or Chinese partners for Opel.

I don't think GM would want to get rid of Opel. It's a strategic asset that getting rid of would be a big mistake. Opel is the source of much of their design talent and ongoing revenue. If they sell a stake to Germany, I believe it will be simply to get the investment.

-
What you write is what I would see as THE right thing for GM to do, to get some outside investments into Opel while retaining a majority. Latest reports however point to something else. In Europe, Opel in most places is among the TOP THREE of motor-car sellers, and so, nobody really expects to see Opel disappear. As Opel in Europe is far far far more than 50% of GM Europe, a separation of Opel from GM might rather reduce the European presence of GM to a non-entity.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 16):
and share platforms with Fiat.

-
True, things like windows and some other features are common with FIAT. So that Opel in the end might switch to ally with FIAT and Chrysler !


User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8770 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (5 years 10 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 10151 times:



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 16):
new 9-4 and 9-4x,

You probably meant the 9-5, because rumor has it that is coming down the pike for introduction later this year as a 2010 model.

For Saab, I see Chinese or Hyundai affiliation or management, maybe with Swedish government participation.

Hyundai faces a choice. They could make Saab into Hyundai's Lexus. Problem is, Mazda or Subaru is probably a better match in terms of products. But Hyundai has the deep pockets and vast engineering know-how to make a luxury brand "take flight," and do so immediately.

The Chinese brands, I don't see that they have the engineering know-how to play in this game. The Chinese are 20 years behind even the Koreans. Someday, they can market nice refined cars in the USA. Not yet. Hyundai just arrived on the scene (the Genesis) so I can see them toying with SAAB.


User currently offlineJCS17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 39
Reply 19, posted (5 years 10 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 10139 times:

SAAB was screwed when they signed with their partnership with GM.

Yep, nothing is sweeter than getting a 9-7 and having cheap-ass Delco GM shit that you'd find in a Buick all over the car. Saab ceased to be something special under GM.

My mother had a '97 9000 CSE and it was a basket case in terms of electrical problems. You know what though, it was a Saab. It was a quirky POS, but when the damn thing worked, it ruled.



America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlineWunalaYann From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (5 years 10 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 10107 times:



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 16):
Holden is plugged into Daewoo and Opel for a lot of it's models, so it could always survive as an importer or an asembler of kits. However I don't think the Australian govt or the Victorian govt will allow Holden to fail, it's too big an employer and it earns export dollars.

That they are plugged into Opel is a good thing, in my opinion, but it would be even better if they ditched the Daewoo imports. They will not compete with the Europeans and the Japanese by "Australianising" Korean products, with due respects to Korean manufacturing.

As for the exports, I think we will have to wait and see what the last quarter's results look like. Exporting big Commodores and bigger Statesmans at the moment is not the recipe for success, especially if the Gulf states go through tough economic times.


User currently offlineStasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3287 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (5 years 10 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 10106 times:



Quoting JCS17 (Reply 19):
My mother had a '97 9000 CSE and it was a basket case in terms of electrical problems. You know what though, it was a Saab. It was a quirky POS, but when the damn thing worked, it ruled.

I agree - my best friend's mother owned several Volvos over the years, and decided she wanted a new Saab for its safety features and cool styling. So, she bought a brand-new 2001 Saab 9-5 sedan with a turbo-four cylinder motor. It was trouble-free for the first 2 years, then all hell broke loose with the car. The turbocharger and engine control computer died in the Saab when it had about 70K miles on it. She paid a fortune to fix it and immediately traded the POS in for a 2006 Acura RL (with all-wheel drive) that she still owns - it's an awesome car for Pennsylvania winter driving and she's never had an serious issue it in the over 3 years she's owned the RL.

Saab's poor reliability (along with its lackluster model line-up) killed its appeal to American buyers.



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (5 years 10 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 10053 times:



Quoting StasisLAX (Reply 21):
Saab's poor reliability

-
Sounds as if something went down. In the pre-GM days, more than 20 years ago, Saab, a company whose style I personally DISliked, had the reputation of almost absolute reliability.


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (5 years 10 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10037 times:



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 22):
Sounds as if something went down. In the pre-GM days, more than 20 years ago, Saab, a company whose style I personally DISliked, had the reputation of almost absolute reliability.

This sounds like the opposite of the effect I have heard that Ford had on Volvo (and Jaguar, for certain): Improved reliability.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineSwissy From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 1734 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (5 years 10 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 10033 times:

It makes sense the Swedish government is holding back with the $$$ until Saab is free from GM..... I also hope the Germans do not compromise with GM on Opel.... NO $$$ until GM does not own the majority of Opel anymore...... Opel was bleeding for too many years because GM pulled most of the profits & funds away from Opel and left Opel in the dirt.....

The US manufacturer are financially sick for a long time and finally reality has appeared

GM needs Opel but Opel does not need GM..... that is reality  Wink.....

Cheerios,


25 MD11Engineer : This is exactly what the German government is afraid of: They would like to bail out Opel, since it seems that it is a viable company, which, under p
26 ME AVN FAN : - Volvo for decades here in Zurich was THE motorcars-brand due to its absolute reliability and that was long before Ford got involved. That Ford coul
27 ME AVN FAN : Exactly. I hope that German governments, federal and states, only get forward if having majority ownership back in Germany
28 Charles79 : I heard the exact same thing on the news last week while on vacation in Essen (yes, people go on vacation to the Rurh area!). My feelings on the subj
29 ME AVN FAN : - I do not quite see any sense in Opel taking over "Saturn", a widely unknown brand. - Opel will have to use its own and well established brand where
30 Swissy : Support it 100%, have many friends which worked for Opel in the early 90's.... it was/is a disgrace how GM took all the $$$$$$ and left them with not
31 N328KF : Everybody knows who Saturn is in the US. Even if they the US brand to Opel, they would inherit a good dealer network.
32 ME AVN FAN : Opel is based in Rüsselsheim/Germany, and in Europe, NOBODY knows Saturn as a car-maker. To people in Europe, Saturn is an outer planet ! The heavy
33 N328KF : I am not suggesting that the Saturn brand be employed anywhere outside of the US. Anyhow, Saturn still accounts for some proportion of Opel dealershi
34 Baroque : Meaning even MORE money as they have had a fair bit already. So far that investment is making the money given to Toyota look like a smart investment,
35 ME AVN FAN : - But "Saturn" is irrelevant outside the USA. And so, Opel once out of GM should get rid of that liability. Opel rather should care about its sister
36 N328KF : I'm guessing you don't know anything about Saturn. Who cares about the brand? You've got a set of eager and willing dealers for whomever wants to pic
37 ME AVN FAN : - I am NOT "harping on the same point" but I feel that you misunderstand the situation of Opel. Opel, once out of GM, rather should concentrate on it
38 Swissy : Agree, who ever will p/u Saturn will get a very good & established dealer network... Saturn is very young and I do not believe they have the pension
39 N328KF : Listen, bub, I don't know what your beef is with the US market, but you never seem to stop to consider that those European companies that fail do so
40 ME AVN FAN : - FIAT has a lot of success in many markets, and this would NOT have been possible with "shitty" cars. They did have the "rusting" problem in the 60i
41 Charles79 : ME AVN FAN, I am quite well aware of the fact that Saturn is not known outside of the US, and I do know where Opel is based at (I have been to their
42 ME AVN FAN : - BAe is a company which has sold many programs to US companies, as having been weak. BMW had its fair share of problems. As companies, FIAT and Rena
43 N328KF : It's clear to me that you actually know very little about the US. Nestle has a huge presence here. It's also clear that you are biased, and also unab
44 ME AVN FAN : - That "huge presence" is a minimal one compared to what I am used to .
45 Gorgos : You know there are SAAB fighterjets, dont you
46 Swissy : you can go as far as the 90's....... Fiat still struggles because of the past rust was one problem..... electrical was an other mayor one... why do p
47 Post contains links and images ME AVN FAN : - true, but while Saab Automobile AB is the car-producer, Saab AB is an independent Swedish company, producing, among other hardware, the Saab Gripen
48 KiwiRob : I really don't thik many in the UK would be upset if the Vauxhal name were replaced by Opel, I would only see people being upset if Luton and Ellsmer
49 SAS A340 : Yes! Thankfully GM has nothing to do with the "real" SAAB! SAAB and SAAB are as different as Volvo car and Volvo trucks. I will miss SAAB
50 Bongodog1964 : Is Saab worth saving ? They are only as minor player in their home market of Sweden, Volvos far outnumber them on the road, as I discovered when I vis
51 Boeing74741R : Vauxhall is a household name in the UK. Opel, despite the fact that all of the Vauxhall line-up is derived from Opel, isn't, so it wouldn't really be
52 Flighty : It is a Honda Civic-class automobile. That's no insult; the Civic hopelessly outclasses the 9-3 in many ways (electrical system, fit & finish). But t
53 Swissy : Agree and there is very little or no extra cost to put decals on Vauxhaul versus Opel, I also think people should not waste any more time with the na
54 StasisLAX : The brand-new 2010 Buick LaCrosse is built on the Insignia's platform. In fact, the Chinese-market 2009 Buick Regal is a Buick-badged Insignia with t
55 KiwiRob : In Europe that would go down like a lead balloon
56 Swissy : I was referring to the US market....... not Europe & Opel,Saab Cheerios,
57 Na : Opel is the German brand with the lowest image, the most boring brand we have. I´ve never given a 10 seconds thought to an Opel. But they are quite b
58 Jush : Good lord you are eligible for a proper taste. Saab was always bullshit and wasn't more than a niche car for some alternative hippies such as Volvo d
59 Charles79 : I saw the new LaCrosse at the Washington Auto Show earlier this month. If the fit and finish of the production cars is as good as the show car then i
60 OlegShv : Stop smoking whatever you are smoking. 9-3 has never been and will never be a Civic-class car. Can you please elaborate on how electrical system in a
61 KiwiRob : A standard civic and a standard 9-3 both drive like a wet paper bag, and the driving dynamics of the upper end 9-3's which are pretty good aren't as
62 ME AVN FAN : - Sorry, I misinterpreted some comments above. But if Saturn is not owned by Opel, whomever purchases Opel will not be interested to purchase additio
63 JJJ : Curious, I didn't know Opels were that well regarded in Switzerland. The price of an Astra here will always be about 1.000 - 2.000 euro less than the
64 ME AVN FAN : - Opel for decades was, with interruptions when VW took the lead, the number one car brand in Switzerland, usually followed by VW, Renault, FIAT and
65 OlegShv : My point was that the 9-3 is not a Civic-class car. 9-3 is more appropriately compared to European Accord, or Acura TSX in the US market. How well/ba
66 Alessandro : Well who wants to buy SAAB when GM keeps all the patents? Today the socialists are not in charge in Sweden and the current leader of socialdemocrats (
67 ME AVN FAN : - If GM keepts the patents, Saab is of ZERO-value. Any outside-investor will only be ready to pay if the patents are WITH the company.
68 Alessandro : Exactly, they want to keep XWD all the other goodies.
69 Flighty : Hahah.. You maybe haven't driven a Civic in a while. Anyway, a 2003 Civic is probably worth more money in the US market than a 2003 9-3. This is the
70 Post contains images AirCatalonia : You know that can carry tragic consequences, don't you? Let's hope the crisis is over soon.
71 Swissy : Sure they were until GM started gutting out Opel..... I was referring to the US market only...... use Chevy for 90% of the products & Cadillac for th
72 StasisLAX : ROFLMAO - classic!
73 Jush : Then there must have been a lot of quality and management problems since then as they managed to get laughed at all the way Regds jush
74 MD11Engineer : I just read an article about it in this week's Spiegel magazine. According to them, since the 1970s, the managers of Opel were mostly GM appointed Am
75 N328KF : Too bad for everyone that XWD is a Haldex property, excepting possibly the term 'XWD.'
76 Swissy : Jan you are 100% correct Would not say that Opel or Saab were trouble free, but being in trouble and fixing it is one thing being in trouble leave it
77 N801NW : That would be odd, as GM did not acquire their original 50% stake in SAAB until March, 1990. They acquired the rest in the mid-1990's.
78 Charles79 : Jan if that's correct then even more shame for GM me thinks. This is why I have mixed feelings about "saving" our car companies here. On the one hand
79 ME AVN FAN : - Quite obviously yes, as in the 60ies nobody would have laughed about Saab
80 Swissy : It is true.... based on what my German friends (worked in the Opel engineer department) told me back in the early 90's.... My dad had always Opels as
81 N328KF : GM and Opel have been together for a long, long time, back to 1929. It's a bit late to suggest that sort of thing.
82 ME AVN FAN : - Maybe. In that case, GM simply thought about a good guy. While it is doubtful whether purchasing companies getting downward. This recipe already ru
83 N328KF : GM acquired 80% in 1929, and the other 20% in 1931. That doesn't jive with your statement.
84 Bongodog1964 : Saab were known in the 80's for their solid, fast cars, but if you go back to the 60's they produced slow, uncomfortable tin cans with 2 stroke engin
85 MD11Engineer : But the Nazis nationalised Opel pretty much. Only after WW2 did GM get it's full control back. Jan
86 Alessandro : And safe, the 9000 was a very safe car for it´s time. SAAB made some nice sportscar with the Sonette during the 1970ies, dangerous sure but nice.
87 Alessandro : SAAB got the sole userright for a period of time and the XWD name.
88 N328KF : They got the rights to Haldex IV, but other manufacturers have the rights to other versions of Haldex (eg. Audi/VW -- Haldex I.) I'm sure that Haldex
89 Post contains links StasisLAX : Here's a very interesting idea regarding Opel - could Daimler-Benz be Opel's savior? Daimler may be under intense pressure from Chancellor Merkel to r
90 MD11Engineer : The Commerzbank of all banks, where last month the German government had to buy a 25% stake to save it from bankruptcy (the bank had gambled on the U
91 RayChuang : Opel, unlike Saab, is much more likely to survive because they have a product mix better suited to the world automotive market: Corsa, Astra, Insignia
92 ME AVN FAN : - No, sorry, my statement was based on a memory mix-up somehow. And so, factually wrong. Sorry again. - THIS is what I completely mixed up ! I now lo
93 Charles79 : Talk about an unexpected turn of events! Here you have posters arguing about when GM acquired Opel and now the politicians are talking about Daimler
94 Alessandro : Latest on SAAB, Swedish customs stops export of cars and import of parts (not clear if its only for outside EU or within EU as well?), due to custom f
95 Cptkrell : For a little correct history, (some) of you folks should re-read N328KF's posts; Opel was basically run by/with GM USA for a LONG time. As a matter of
96 Swissy : No argue about that.... however, the day GM started pulling major R&D funds away from Opel.... Opel paid the price for it..... There was always influ
97 Post contains links StasisLAX : Saab halted all production today at the company’s Trollhättan, Sweden plant thanks to the bureaucrat's of the Swedish government. Can anyone cut Sa
98 Theredbaron : It would be fun to see Opel Survive in some way and german engeniers design great cars and in 10 years to be on par with VW, while GM is still trying
99 Doona : I saw Carl-Peter Forster on TV yesterday suggesting that since the customs agency is a part of the state, he was hoping that the government would ste
100 MD11Engineer : Up to the 1960s Opel has been manufacturing upper class cars at the top of their range (the cars were named after naval ranks, with the Kadett being t
101 JJJ : There's at least a honourable exception: the Opel Calibra.
102 Post contains links and images N328KF :
103 ME AVN FAN : - It would be fascinating for various reasons : - impressive range of models - interesting geographic combination (Stuttgart + Frankfurt/Rüsselsheim
104 Post contains links StasisLAX : "Following uncertainty in General Motors’ global operations, workers from the automaker’s German Opel division staged rallies across Europe in an
105 Swissy : And I believe these employees will be able to make the right commitments to make it work..... Agree complex on one side but savings on the other... O
106 Post contains links StasisLAX : Opel is going to get that chance to be a "stand-alone" organization, apart from General Motors, according to news reports today that GM is going to s
107 N328KF : In the end, I think, Opel will still be owned and controlled by GM..
108 Charles79 : I just read this on cnn.com...not totally unexpected but a little sooner than I had thought it would be announced. Wish them good luck, they got a ni
109 JCS17 : It's funny you mention that. In Northern Virginia, Saabs and Volvos are very popular. In fact, there are a ton of used car joints that deal with thos
110 Cpd : Good idea to spin Opel/Vauxhall off. I'd like to see Holden spun off as well, leave GM North America to slowly fall apart. Holden/Opel could work very
111 KiwiRob : Holden would turn up it's toes and and die without GM, the company is way to small to go it alone, even with help from Opel it would still need to pl
112 Alessandro : Holden is interesting, how are they doing? Do they survive the onslaught of 2nd hand Japanese cars from Japan?
113 Cragley : SAAB Safe And Affordable Bomb It was stylish in the 80's and maaaaaaaaaybe very early 90's but hasnt changed since. They are renowned for their electr
114 Baroque : Or alternatively, it would turn up its toes and die without Opel??? I know the wide brown land will be used as an argument for GM engines but we coul
115 Post contains images Cpd : They seem to do okay.   Most of the 2nd hand stuff coming from Japan is quite ordinary. The general public seem to avoid it - it seems to be mostly
116 Post contains links StasisLAX : Rumors from the German automotive press are saying that Daimler (Mercedes) is negotiating with Opel to buy one of Opel's small car assembly plants in
117 Cpd : Oh no... I see what the Korean GM products are like. Far inferior to the German built ones.
118 KiwiRob : If they dropped the V8's in the Commodore then maybe Opel could help out.
119 Baroque : What is the proportion of V8s that Holden sell? I know they will be more profitable per unit, but arguably Australia would be better off without them
120 Cpd : However, what the beancounters don't understand is that people like the V8 engine. It makes a great noise - and it goes really well. The V8's still s
121 Baroque : Agree about the hybrids, quite a lot of nasties being used in the batteries. When you get to be only 65% of the sales for Toyota (not a firm bit on V
122 ME AVN FAN : - Press reports today see the future in the form of a joint Opel-Vauxhaul company with GM having a heavy shareholding in the that company. This in my
123 KiwiRob : Something like 20% or less, most V8's are either SS's or some variation of HSV. Ford Australia has already showen that a blowen 6 is as good as or be
124 Swissy : It depends what GM considers "heavy"....... I am sure GM knows how valuable/profiteble these companies actually are.... compare to the US operations.
125 Cpd : You only have to stand near a Mercedes C63 AMG (near 380ci V8) as it passes by, even at moderate speed - to understand the charms of a 8 cylinder eng
126 ME AVN FAN : I basically would wish a "European" company only to be minority owned by GM. But after having heard the lame and rather negative reaction of the Germ
127 Swissy : I am with you..... I am sure if GM would step aside & walk away from Opel things would look a lot better..... however GM is not playing "open" game h
128 Post contains links StasisLAX : And here come the Chinese to pick over the bones of Saab.... NEW YORK/DETROIT (Reuters) -- China's Geely Automobile and Dongfeng Motor Group today de
129 Flighty : Why not have Opel the controlling member of GM, calling the shots and setting standards? BMW builds cars in America, why not Opel, through its GM sub
130 ME AVN FAN : - Why not, provided the US-American shareholders accept only to be a minority in a new "Opel Worldwide AG"
131 Post contains links StasisLAX : It's obvious that the Swedish government strongly dislikes General Motor's senior management team from an article on Autoweek.com today.... "Saab aims
132 Post contains links StasisLAX : The never-ending Saab "soap opera" continues! Here's a report on remarks made by GM Vice-Chairman Bob Lutz: Struggling Swedish automakers Saab and Vol
133 Post contains links StasisLAX : Here's an interesting update from the German newspapers regard Opel's so-called "insolvency" - "A top figure with the powerful German workers union IG
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