Airplanenut From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 649 posts, RR: 1 Posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1081 times:
From what I heard just now on CBS and CNN, PM Sharon just declared Israel in a state of War against Palestinians in the wake of the most recent attacks.
Airplanenut From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 649 posts, RR: 1 Reply 2, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 970 times:
It's still March in NJ.
I ABSOLUTELY SWEAR THAT I AM NOT LYING... this is COMPLETELY SERIOUS!
Tbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7011 posts, RR: 28 Reply 6, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 949 times:
Couldn't have said it better LY744, but of course, nobody will listen to you
Airplanenut From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 649 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 933 times:
LY,
Today was the first time Sharon flat out said it was a war... there is a difference between fighting and a declared war against a people/nation/race
Alpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 925 times:
It's about time. I don't think a lot of the world would have been as restrained as Israel has been over the last two weeks in the face of this massacre from these Palestinian terrorists.
Airplanenut From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 649 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 901 times:
LY744,
The difference is mainly what the UN allows by the Geneva Convention and other crap like that.
As an example, when Pearl Harbor took place, the Japanese mailed the US to say the attack was coming and when. The mail got slowed down and the letter arrived I believe 3 days after the attack, but the date was stated.
It's also for technicalities. Now maybe some people won't say that they are just hurting innocent people, but rather they are engaged in a true war and this is what happens in a war.
Jeremy
PS- Did you know that Vietnam and Korea were not wars, but rather Conflicts? I believe the last real major war in the world was WWII.
Alpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 894 times:
Rogue, you are truly amazing. We've had a wave of suicide attacks in the last 72 hours, and you still don't think Israel has ANY justification to defend itself and it's citizens, do you? You still put ALL the blame on Israel, don't you? You still think these scumbags murdering terrorists are just fine fellows who just need anger management courses, don't you?
You are just so blind, that it's truly, truly sad.
RogueTrader From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 889 times:
Alpha,
If you take it from the point of view of the last 72 hours or two weeks, or maybe even two or ten years, then yes, you could say that Israel has justification to "defend" itself.
But, if you look at the whole conflict and try to figure out why these people are fighting, I think its clear that no side is clearly right or clearly wrong.
Your argument is similar to what the German's might have said during D-Day: "We've been here for 4 years already - we have every right to defend this land we took from the people already living here. We have a right to defend ourselves."
Jamesag96 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 2095 posts, RR: 8 Reply 16, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 887 times:
Good lord, will someone please put the kids to bed, and someone else tell the repetitive idiots to shut up. Please realize that there are ALWAYS more than one side to a story, so don't take one and embrace it as the absolute truth.
Jamesag96 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 2095 posts, RR: 8 Reply 17, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 879 times:
Hey Rogue,
Your name tends to show up in the threads I visit, and I gotta say you are right on in this one.
Alpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 871 times:
Your argument is similar to what the German's might have said during D-Day: "We've been here for 4 years already - we have every right to defend this land we took from the people already living here. We have a right to defend ourselves."
Not a very good analogy, Rogue. Israel was given the land by the world community as a whole; Germany took it as war booty.
I am encouraged, however, to see you acknowledge that there is blame on both sides, not just one.
RogueTrader From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 854 times:
Alpha, I appreciate your virulent anti-RogueTrader attacks. At least you have an opinion. Jamesag96, thanks.
++Back on topic for this thread++
Regardless of where one stands on the Is/Pal problem, the attacks Israel organizes, whether called offensive or defensive, can only hurt its cause in world public opinion. Not that anyone shoud act only on the basis of public opinion, (like Bill Clinton)- but I thought Israel was trying to garner some support for their side here. If they don't care what the rest of us think, then world opinion is obviously not an issue here.
Like it or not, Israel is now seen as something of the big military Goliath against the civilian rag tag Palestinians, playing David.
Right or wrong, the world sees the terrorist attacks (cafes, buses, etc...) as a desperate attempt from a group largely powerless to get their side heard in peaceful means. I know this may not be reality, however it is perception. I'm just pointing out that Israel can not now effect much in the way of a military response without earning contempt from the rest of the world.
So, this all goes back to the main point that both sides have understandable complaints, and any violence is just going to make it worse.
I understand the Israeli need to seek an eye for an eye - it is, coincidentally, in fact an instruction from the times of Moses. Exodus 21:23. But, where do they think this will lead? To peace? I can't imagine the Israelis honestly think retributions will lead to peace; therefore, I assume they want more war.
The question then becomes, why does Israel want more war?
Twaneedsnohelp From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 853 times:
But, if you look at the whole conflict and try to figure out why these people are fighting,
I have Rogue and this is what I found. The Palestinians have had numerous peaceful opportunities to achieve their state (wye river, olso, sharm el sheikh). No, the Palestinians want to win their independence in violence, death, and blood. The Palestinians can agree on nothing except what they want to destroy, not what they want to build. Ever heard Arafat talk about his new state's constitution? Ever heard Arafat talk about what type of education system or economy he wants? Ever heard Arafat talk about a new body politic? No, because Arafat is not interested in the contents of his state, just the contours.
As Tom Friedman explained in today's Times:
"Palestinians have adopted suicide bombing as a strategic choice, not out of desperation. This threatens all civilization because if suicide bombing is allowed to work in Israel, then, like hijacking and airplane bombing, it will be copied and will eventually lead to a bomber strapped with a nuclear device threatening entire nations. That is why the whole world must see this Palestinian suicide strategy defeated.
But how? This kind of terrorism can be curbed only by self-restraint and repudiation by the community itself. No foreign army can stop small groups ready to kill themselves"
RogueTrader, its easy to dismiss this Palestinian terrorism as some confined action to Israel because of the occupation. But it is not and 9/11 should've opened your eyes to this. Suicide Bombing is a narcissistic even nihilist phenomenon that has the ability to destroy western society. Our civilization was built on the basic pretense of the sacredness of life and the will to protect it. These suicide bombers (or "heroes" in the Arab press) hate Israel more than they love their life or their families.
This is extraordinarily dangerous becuase how do you fight someone who has no qualms about dying and even more importantly how do you create a society built on the ashes of suicide bombers who kill children eating pizza?
RogueTrader From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 844 times:
ROTFL, Rogue, that IS my opinion, that you're wrong, got it? Or do I need to spell it out further?
Yeah, I think I got it. You don't have to spell it out further. I was just saying that at least you have an opinion about [me or] the Israeli matter. I said this to contrast those who think we shouldn't be talking about it here, or for the other people who don't even try to look into the situation.
RogueTrader From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 840 times:
TWA,
Didn't you post this already - maybe on another thread?
Quoting Tom Friedman and the NY Times, btw, doesn't mean anything. You may as well quote straight from Sharon's mouth or the Israeli gov't PR agency. They are most biased in this matter.
I'm not really understanding most of what you're trying to say to me in the rest of the post. In fact I agree with a lot of it. Can you clarify?
You're right here though:
how do you fight someone who has no qualms about dying ....You don't.
That's exactly right, you can't fight a group that is so thoroughly devoted that they'll use these tactics. You'll never win playing their game, in fact, if you play their game, they'll win. You have to find some other way to deal with the problem. So why are the Israelis playing their game?
kind regards,
RogueTrader
25 Alpha 1: That's exactly right, you can't fight a group that is so thoroughly devoted that they'll use these tactics. You'll never win playing their game, in fa
26 Jamesag96: I don't think anyone on here is a cheerleader for the nut cases that are the Palestinian EXTREMEISTS. We are simply trying to understand what is happe
27 RogueTrader: Alpha, Do you think that Israel using its military will a> cause the Palestinians to calm down and give up, or b> cause the Palestinians to be more pi
28 Twaneedsnohelp: Alpha answered your question to me. Thanks alpha. Israel's destroying of the Palestinian terror infrastructure will DESTROY THE PALESTINIAN TERROR INF
29 Radarbeam: Aren't you guys bored of discussing the same things over and over? Israel there, Palestinians here. They both hate each others and they are doing noth
30 RogueTrader: Israel's destroying of the Palestinian terror infrastructure will DESTROY THE PALESTINIAN TERROR INFRASTRUCUTRE If Israel has the ability to destroy '
31 RogueTrader: Of course he is biased, he is an opinions writer When I said the NY Times and Friedman are biased, I meant the definition of biased that means prejudi
32 RogueTrader: TWA- What else about my post do you agree with? I agree with these statements: The Palestinians have had numerous peaceful opportunities to achieve th
33 Tbar220: Radarbeam, Reminds me of that Snickers commercial around the time of the election: "Oh yea, well my dad used to be president!" "Oh yea! Well I invente
34 LH423: Calm down, calm down, he didn't declare a state of war. Neither did Dubya with his famous "War" on terrorism, but American's have died during hostilit
35 Singapore_Air: I'd like to get into the debate here, but have little to add at present. "Israel Declares War" - They only noticed?
36 RogueTrader: Singapore, I'll try to get you involved in the debate here. I looked on your user profile, but I'd like to know: where do you live, where are your fro
37 LY744: Dear Rogue Trader, I know you think the Palestinians were deprived of their land by the evil Westerners and Jews, but what does that have to do with t
38 Go Canada!: the terrorist groups tell their subjects that is it their islamic duty to kill all jews. rt, where does it matter where singapore air comes from ,hes
39 RogueTrader: Dear Rogue Trader, I know you think the Palestinians were deprived of their land by the evil Westerners and Jews, but what does that have to do with t
40 Alpha 1: Alpha, Do you think that Israel using its military will a> cause the Palestinians to calm down and give up, or b> cause the Palestinians to be more pi
41 RogueTrader: People like you are precisely the reason why the Peace Process is going down the drain. If I were in charge of my country's foreign policy I would ha
42 Singapore_Air: Thank you Go Canada and RogueTrader, no offense taken. I am from the UK I think one user hit it on the head when he/she said that we hear that Arafat
43 Leftseat86: I don't think the Israeli Army, no matter how good, could put an end to terrorism. Anyone can build a bomb these days, there doesn't need to be any or
44 Go Canada!: ermmmmmmmmm rouge, iran and iraq and syria have all stated that the israeli state should be exterminated, syria did its normal anti-jewish stunt at th
45 RogueTrader: however you and every other anti-israeli will never admit to the fact that its the palestinians own fault. they were offered a state and they blew it.
46 Vafi88: It's about time! Sharon held his guts in for long enough, it's time to spill.
47 Monarch: Many countries have declared war on terrorism, but have done little to support their declaration. All those that have declared war on terrorism must t
48 Klaus: Vafi88: It's about time! Sharon held his guts in for long enough, it's time to spill. That image just about sums up all this bloody mess...
49 Twaneedsnohelp: So, next week when the US invades southern England, or wherever you live, and sets up a nation and populates it with people that neither you nor the U
50 Toda,Reisinger: the world sees the terrorist attacks (cafes, buses, etc...) as a desperate attempt from a group largely powerless to get their side heard in peaceful
51 RogueTrader: Oh come on! You know the differences in the situation don't you? Come on, your pulling our leg, comparing apples to oranges. From the point of view of
52 Toda,Reisinger: I was sure Rogue T would ignore my last post...
53 RogueTrader: Toda, If someone has the right idea or is on the correct side of an issue, this is not negated by using unacceptable forms of protest. The Palestinian
54 RogueTrader: I was sure Rogue T would ignore my last post... No such luck. I do have to sleep, work and spend time with the family, though. IF that was the case, h
55 Toda,Reisinger: According to your own words, the disease (= "the cause" of the violence...) is Israel's creation, you've repeated this over and over; so that in your
56 Toda,Reisinger: Aha, you have no answer; (your last posted arrived while I was writing my last one...) Looking at this 'whole wave of blind terror' is again only look
57 RogueTrader: , RogueT, as well as some others on these forums, doesn't like this basic question...and Rogue T has the solution for the ME conflict: Israel's creati
58 Toda,Reisinger: It is the only conclusion one can draw from your posts. But if you actually have another opinion on how to "heal the disease", it would be highly inte
59 Alpha 1: I had to laugh this morning, reading where the Palestinian foreign minister, at a meeting of Arab foreign ministers, stated that "Israel has thrown aw
60 Toda,Reisinger: Alpha 1, thank you, it is so well said.
61 RogueTrader: But if you actually have another opinion on how to "heal the disease", it would be highly interesting to read it in this discussion... If one gets bey
62 Toda,Reisinger: I'm sorry, but WHAT do you mean? ...if we come to an agreement...on what to do about Israel... Very original, but WHERE is the solution? Where is the
63 RogueTrader: Very original, but WHERE is the solution? Where is the IDEA? What's your OPINION? It doesn't matter what solution is decided, the point is that since
64 Go Canada!: hold on rouge, you have always stated that the americans shouldnt get involved, are u doing a u-turn. ur just as blinded as the israeli fanatics, what
65 Toda,Reisinger: RogueT's visions seem to be somewhat confused, if there's any kind of vision in what has been said.
66 RogueTrader: hold on rouge, you have always stated that the americans shouldnt get involved, are u doing a u-turn The Americans shouldn't pick sides. When I've su
67 Go Canada!: sorry rouge trader, I was under the impression that you had stated in the past along with others that america has apologised to the indians for taking
68 RogueTrader: The Indian analogy is a fair analogy, both Israel and white Europeans took land from the people that were already living there. And yes, I agree with
69 Go Canada!: rouge, hamas believes it is an islamic dutyto kill every israeli, as do those on 9/11 who feel that all americans are evil. yet many will say that the
70 RogueTrader: Go Canada!, hamas believes it is an islamic dutyto kill every israeli, as do those on 9/11 who feel that all americans are evil. yet many will say tha
71 Toda,Reisinger: these facts are a point for themselves, provided one understands them; How can peace be reached, if, independantly from any political consideration, t
72 Stratofish: And how can peace be reached by leading a war which is not justified or legal under any international war and which will only result in a paramount ha
73 RogueTrader: This threat should be dealt very first and very strongly. How? kind regards, RogueTrader
74 Toda,Reisinger: How, that's the great question. I have to leave (it is 9 pm CET); see you tomorrow.
75 Alpha 1: And how can peace be reached by leading a war which is not justified or legal under any international war and which will only result in a paramount ha
76 ADG: I assume you're referring to the continued escalation by the Palestinians, Stratofish? I know you're not, but you deserve the jab for that one. Why? B
77 LY744: "Actually, the Hezbollah responded to an Israeli attack did they not?" This is very sad, you have no clue, but you just assume that it's Israel's faul
78 Toda,Reisinger: Actually, the Hezbollah responded to an Israeli attack did they not? (not 100% sure on that ...). But hey why not! Israel seems to think they can take
79 ADG: This is very sad, you have no clue, but you just assume that it's Israel's fault... Well as it's true ... However, in this instance I was unsure which
80 Toda,Reisinger: Suicide bombers and all those organizing their barbaric missions are offering DUE PROCESS and FAIR TRIAL to the hundreds of innocent men, women, child
81 Alpha 1: Why? Because you don't like what he says. Israel escallated this, they have moved this from a conflict to a war. Right, ADG, that is why the terrorist
82 Alpha 1: Actually, the Hezbollah responded to an Israeli attack did they not? That's one of the most naive, uneducated statements I've ever heard on this subje
83 Alpha 1: Toda and LY, and all others with a shred of decency, I think it's high time to just ignore the likes of ADG. Reading her responses, it's so far remove
84 Hepkat: anti-Zionist May I remind you it was the actions of the Zionists that created this dilemna to begin with. I've said this time and time again, but no o
85 Alpha 1: May I remind you it was the actions of the Zionists that created this dilemna to begin with. And may I remind YOU, Hepkat, that this latest escalation
86 Toda,Reisinger: Then there won't be peace until these illegitimate Zionists are thrown out...And that's EXACTLY the reason why there is not peace in the ME after so m
87 Hepkat: I hope you're listening to President Bush's speech right now. Have you ever considered why EVERYONE's condemning Israel, including Bush, live? In his
88 Go Canada!: Israel has the right to defend itself, but whatever action it takes should lay the foundation for future peace. yes thats right....has the right to de
89 RogueTrader: ...that way the UN, that anti-Israeli band of nuts can have their way in carving up Israel, right? No deal. ...may I remind YOU, Hepkat, that it was t
90 Hepkat: The fact remains it was israels land in the first place I wonder WHERE they got it from in the first place. And while you're at it, maybe you can expl
91 LY744: "Israel MUST immediately stop all incursions into Palestinian cities. Israel MUST withdraw from occupied territories. Israel MUST cease settlement act
92 ADG: that is why the terrorist scum just ESCALATED this conflict to a new region, right? True, as long as your reference to "terrorist scum" is the Isreali
93 Toda,Reisinger: and all those Jews blown up in pizza joints and shopping centers-some teenagers-are actually big, bad, gun-carrying Israeli soldiers, huh? ADG: - Of c
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