Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Bugatti Bleu Veyron Centenaire - 273mph, 1400hp?  
User currently offlineCpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5916 times:

http://jalopnik.com/tag/bugatti-veyron-centenaire/?id=5161549
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/02/f...eu-centenaire-emerges-from-geneva/

This is a bit off the planet - if it is for real, then I can't believe how they've made it work - after all the endless rumours about how the original Bugatti Veyron was so endlessly fickle in development.

It also seems to have shaved 150kg from the weight of the Veyron if the wild rumours are correct.

That would make it:

1400hp
1738kg weight (original 1888kg).

I don't know any other details. But to give the following acceleration figures for a standard Veyron, you know it'll be scalding quick (if the transmission doesn't break):

Speed over common distances from a start:
0-100m: 145km/h (that's not a typo - it is for real)
0-200m: 188km/h
0-400m: 235km/h (9.9 seconds)

Acceleration to common speeds:
0-60km/h: 1.6 seconds
0-100km/h: 2.7 seconds
0-160km/h: 5.1 seconds
0-200km/h: 7.4 seconds
0-240km/h: 10.4 seconds
0-400km/h: 55.8 seconds

Power to weight:
530hp/tonne (original)
829hp/tonne (Bleu Centenaire)

If the figures are right (we'll find out tomorrow I think) - then this is truly astonishing - and by a big margin the fastest car in the world.

[Edited 2009-03-03 02:25:08]

45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2596 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5890 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

While the Veyron is without doubt an amazing feat of engineering, it was not the fastest car on the Top Gear test track. The original Veyron's mass meant that it wasn't as nimble as other, lighter supercars, even though there is no contest when it comes down to a drag race. I don't know if the reduced weight of this version will fix that problem, but I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.

Great to see that Bugatti is still working on improving it despite the car being already the world's fastest.



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13032 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5881 times:

While I am a car fan, I have issues with trying to develop a road legal car that can go multiple times over the speed limits, that could cost over $1 Million while we need cars that can get much better fuel mileage or use non-oil based fuel sources and yet affordable for the masses.

User currently offlineVega9000 From Portugal, joined Aug 2006, 180 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5847 times:



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 2):
While I am a car fan, I have issues with trying to develop a road legal car that can go multiple times over the speed limits, that could cost over $1 Million while we need cars that can get much better fuel mileage or use non-oil based fuel sources and yet affordable for the masses.

Very good, but the Veyron is not exactly for the masses, is it?
It's a car developed to push the envelope of what a legal road car can do. Actually, I think that it will go down in history as the pinnacle of the internal-combustion car, now that it seems that we are on the verge of a new (electric) age...



Don't believe anything you read on the net. Except this. Well, including this, I suppose.
User currently offlineMolykote From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1340 posts, RR: 29
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5800 times:



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 2):
While I am a car fan, I have issues with trying to develop a road legal car that can go multiple times over the speed limits, that could cost over $1 Million while we need cars that can get much better fuel mileage or use non-oil based fuel sources and yet affordable for the masses.

The development of cars like the Veyron (which incidentally, I don't care for) pays dividends for many other cars further down the model line. What are your issues with VW developing this car?

Although I share your concern for alternate fuels and efficiency, lessons learned from cars like this trickle down. Taking the "green" angle on things, consider the effect of extremely minor efficiencies (structural and otherwise) that might have been learned during the Veyron development. When applied to wider scale production cars, the effect toward your concerns can be quite positive.



Speedtape - The asprin of aviation!
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7109 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5795 times:

Here is a phot of the beast. According to car magazine it's basically the standard Veyron but in bugatti blue, it's a trim option. If you want one you have to be quick only 300 veyrons are being built, about 250 have already been sold.

Big version: Width: 824 Height: 457 File size: 83kb


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8787 posts, RR: 24
Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5769 times:



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 2):
While I am a car fan, I have issues with trying to develop a road legal car that can go multiple times over the speed limits, that could cost over $1 Million while we need cars that can get much better fuel mileage or use non-oil based fuel sources and yet affordable for the masses.

Because you can!!! If everyone thought like that, nobody would have bothered to scale Everest, go to the moon, or build Concorde.

You need to understand the purpose of the Veyron. It is nothing more than a huge publicity stunt to not only relaunch the long defunct Bugatti brand, but to put it right at the very top of the heap in terms of prestige. VW intends for Bugatti to simply outclass Rolls Royce, Aston Martin, Bently, Mercedes, BMW, Maybach, Ferarri, etc. all at the same time.

Years ago VW launch the Phaeton, a car meant to be able to compete with the Mercedes S-Class and other such cars. I sat in one at the Geneva auto show at its launch and itis a wonderful luxury car. But who wants to spend a big pile of money on a luxury car that carries the name Volkswagen (People's Car)? They've only managed to sell a few thousand Phaetons in the past decade.

As you will recall, Toyota and Nissan had the same issue, and launched the Lexus and Infiniti brands for their luxury cars. VW managed to get their hands on the Bugatti brand, but rather than simply come out with a rebadged and updated Phaeton with a Bugatti badge, they wanted to signal that Bugatti was not just any car. The Veyron was a cost-no-object technical tour-de-force - the ultimate supercar. No luxury or sports car manufacturer could absorb the expense of developing it and the fact that, in spite of the million dollar price tag, VW actually loses over a million dollars on each car it sells. As far as an economically viable car, it is a massive failure, as was Concorde. But it was never intended to be economically viable.

Once they have the prestige of having built and sold the world's most powerful, expensive cars in history, they can concentrate on more earth-like ventures, such as a line of cars targetted at the S-Class Mercs, Astons, Rolls etc. Bugatti might well become the number one brand in the world in terms of brand equity, if they do it right. And on those cars, unlike the Veyron, they intend to make a lot of money.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3513 posts, RR: 29
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5754 times:



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 2):
While I am a car fan, I have issues with trying to develop a road legal car that can go multiple times over the speed limits, that could cost over $1 Million while we need cars that can get much better fuel mileage or use non-oil based fuel sources and yet affordable for the masses.

Well, it could go 400 on the A67 autobahn around Heimsheim, germany, a level road where there is no limit for 15 km... I do not say you should, though  Wink

And whether 400 km/h is really legal on the Autobahn can be debated, as well  Wink But it would be a nice test track for this vehicle...

And come on, I hate this "save the world and don't do anything funny anymore" stuff... Actually you can develop efficient cars AND build a Veyron at the same time...


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8787 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5752 times:



Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 7):
And come on, I hate this "save the world and don't do anything funny anymore" stuff... Actually you can develop efficient cars AND build a Veyron at the same time...

How about a Veyron Hybrid?  Smile



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineSv7887 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1025 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5745 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
Years ago VW launch the Phaeton, a car meant to be able to compete with the Mercedes S-Class and other such cars. I sat in one at the Geneva auto show at its launch and itis a wonderful luxury car. But who wants to spend a big pile of money on a luxury car that carries the name Volkswagen (People's Car)? They've only managed to sell a few thousand Phaetons in the past decade.

They are planning on another one if you can believe it...You'd think they have Audi for a reason. I got to see the original Veyron in person in VW headquarters in Herndon. Other than it's speed I can't say it was anything special inside. Bugatti is to VW as Maybach is to Mercedes.


User currently offlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3513 posts, RR: 29
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5737 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):

How about a Veyron Hybrid?

Well, what use would it be. On the Autobahn, a hybrid is not more efficient. However, using the huge torque an electric engine offers could be cool...

I just don't support the hybrid hype yet. Combined with a cool Diesel engine, though, it would be cool (but not for a Veyron).

On the other hand, think about an electric brake that could store the energy of a Veyron braking down from 400 km/h, and using it again for acceleration... Would be cool...


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7109 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5703 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
Years ago VW launch the Phaeton, a car meant to be able to compete with the Mercedes S-Class and other such cars. I sat in one at the Geneva auto show at its launch and itis a wonderful luxury car. But who wants to spend a big pile of money on a luxury car that carries the name Volkswagen (People's Car)? They've only managed to sell a few thousand Phaetons in the past decade.

Which in my opinion is a great and much under rated car, if I could afford one the V10 TDi would be sitting in my garrage.

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 9):
They are planning on another one if you can believe it...

And I hope it succeeds, it should do well if they price if right, I would price it slightly higher than a 5 series or E class.


User currently offlineAero145 From Iceland, joined Jan 2005, 3071 posts, RR: 21
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5696 times:



Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 7):
And whether 400 km/h is really legal on the Autobahn can be debated, as well

Well, it’s practically *legal*, but I would guess the Polizei would nevertheless give you a warning... Big grin


User currently offlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3513 posts, RR: 29
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5684 times:



Quoting Aero145 (Reply 12):

Well, the problem is that § 1 section 2 states that everyone must act so that others are not endangered more than necessary, and § 3 states that everyone must only drive so fast that he is able to stop within the visible distance, and that he may only drive so fast that he is still able to manage his car.

Still, § 3 section 2 of the driver code (Straßenverkehrsordnung STVO) states that there is no general speed limit on the Autobahn...

So, if the Autobahn is empty it might not be illegal, but it could be, depending also on the driver. It would be stupid as hell to do it, but somehow I would love to try  Wink


User currently offlineSpringbok747 From Australia, joined Nov 2004, 4387 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5679 times:



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 5):
If you want one you have to be quick only 300 veyrons are being built, about 250 have already been sold.

To the UAE no doubt  Wink

Seriously though, this is an awesome engineering achievement but no way can the average guy..hell even someone who has a Ferrari - can afford this one.



אני תומך בישראל
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 5675 times:



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 2):
While I am a car fan, I have issues with trying to develop a road legal car that can go multiple times over the speed limits, that could cost over $1 Million while we need cars that can get much better fuel mileage or use non-oil based fuel sources and yet affordable for the masses.

Speed is still free on autobahn in Germany. Fuel economy is interesting, I think you can drive 12 minutes on a full tank with the old Veyron at full speed, anyone dare to guess the fueleconomy on the new Veyron?


User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 5669 times:



Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 10):
Well, what use would it be. On the Autobahn, a hybrid is not more efficient. However, using the huge torque an electric engine offers could be cool...

I just don't support the hybrid hype yet. Combined with a cool Diesel engine, though, it would be cool (but not for a Veyron).

On the other hand, think about an electric brake that could store the energy of a Veyron braking down from 400 km/h, and using it again for acceleration... Would be cool...

KERS (Kinetic energy recovery system) is the name, about to be used on F1 cars (already in use with Citroën in WRC).


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7109 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5626 times:



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 15):
Speed is still free on autobahn in Germany. Fuel economy is interesting, I think you can drive 12 minutes on a full tank with the old Veyron at full speed, anyone dare to guess the fueleconomy on the new Veyron?

It's not going to be any different from the standard version, this is a trim option not a more powerful version.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8787 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5622 times:



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 17):
It's not going to be any different from the standard version, this is a trim option not a more powerful version.

Uh, no. 150 KG lighter and 400 hp more powerful.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7109 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5609 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
Uh, no. 150 KG lighter and 400 hp more powerful.

Not according to the Bugatti press release, it makes no mention of more power or reduced weight. If you have heard otherwise please provide a link.

Bugatti Press Release:

Bugatti Automobiles S.A.S. presents the Bugatti Veyron Bleu Centenaire at the 2009 Geneve Motor Show, a special commission honouring the 100th anniversary of the company, thus initiating a range of worldwide activities celebrating the creation of this mythic brand a hundred years ago. In addition Bugatti Veyron Grand Sport is shown for the first time to a wider public in Europe.

Hundred years of Bugatti

In 1909 Ettore Bugatti started his business in the Alsacian town of Molsheim, France. The name of the company: "Ettore Bugatti Automobiles i.Els.". And although the name has changed into "Bugatti Automobiles S.A.S.", the site and the philosophy of the brand have been preserved. In 2006 the first model under the "new management" was launched, precisely 50 years after the last car of the original company left the gates of the Molsheim factory. The Bugatti Veyron has only been on the market for three years, but has already reached the status of being an undisputed part of automotive history, with 250 cars ordered to date, and nearly 200 cars delivered. This means that there are only 50 Veyrons to be sold until the limit of 300 units will be reached.

The Bugatti Veyron Bleu Centenaire

Building on the marque's core values of « Art - Forme - Technique » , Bugatti Automobiles S.A.S. has created the Bugatti Veyron Bleu Centenaire, a unique model to celebrate the hundred year old history of the company. This special model takes up the traditional Bugatti two-tone-specification, but portrays it in one rather than two colours: in the most known light shaded Bugatti blue. The Centenaire's unique combination of a « sprintblue matt » and « sprintblue gloss » hence offers a new impression of the two-tone-scheme known so far with parts of the engine also covered in this traditional Bugatti Blue.

The roof-trim-stripes and the exterior rearview mirrors are of polished, anodised aluminium. A special wheel design has been added - enhanced by a bright red brake-capillar. The grills at the front and at the side air intakes are in « mirror shine ».

The interior of the Centenaire is fitted in a special «snowbeige» leather with quilting on the seats. The central console is covered in the same leather. New LED lights, Park Distance Control and a rearview camera have become part of the standard equipment for all Bugatti Veyrons from this year onwards. The Bugatti Veyron Bleu Centenaire shares all performance characteristics of other Veyron models performance-, acceleration- and deceleration characteristics which have been highly praised ever since the Bugatti Veyron first appeared on the scene. The car will cost 1,35 Million Euro exclusive taxes and transportation.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8787 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5599 times:



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 19):
Not according to the Bugatti press release, it makes no mention of more power or reduced weight. If you have heard otherwise please provide a link.

From the thread starter:

http://jalopnik.com/tag/bugatti-veyron-centenaire/?id=5161549

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/02/f...eu-centenaire-emerges-from-geneva/

The rumors surrounding the Bugatti Veyron Centenaire, possibly debuting at Geneva, have just gone to DEFCON 3 with Auto Motor und Sport reporting a 273 MPH top speed.

The reports of a higher speed comes from a major German magazine. And with the aerodynamics around 250mph, I can believe that it takes several hundred horses more to increase speed by less than 20 mph.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15715 posts, RR: 26
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5592 times:

At 3800 lbs. it is still too heavy. Give me a Caparo T1 any day. Plus, the veyron only got the 5th place time on Top Gear and I don't think that more power would help much.


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7109 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5575 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
From the thread starter:

http://jalopnik.com/tag/bugatti-veyron-centenaire/?id=5161549

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/02/f...eu-centenaire-emerges-from-geneva/

The rumors surrounding the Bugatti Veyron Centenaire, possibly debuting at Geneva, have just gone to DEFCON 3 with Auto Motor und Sport reporting a 273 MPH top speed.

The reports of a higher speed comes from a major German magazine. And with the aerodynamics around 250mph, I can believe that it takes several hundred horses more to increase speed by less than 20 mph.

Yes I read those but they are all wrong, why note read my post which contains the official press release, this is not a Veyron with less weight and more power, it's a trim option and that is all. Do you really think Bugatti would have issued a release and not mentioned that it was faster?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 21):
At 3800 lbs. it is still too heavy. Give me a Caparo T1 any day. Plus, the veyron only got the 5th place time on Top Gear and I don't think that more power would help much.

It's a different kind of car, a Caparo really shouldn't be allowed on the road, not many people could drive it safely, whereas anyone can drive a Veyron, take it to the shops and give the keys to granny for her trip to church on Sunday.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15715 posts, RR: 26
Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5569 times:



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 22):
It's a different kind of car, a Caparo really shouldn't be allowed on the road, not many people could drive it safely

True. OK then, I'll take a Koenigsegg CCXR for my daily driver and the Caparo for special occasions.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 22):
whereas anyone can drive a Veyron, take it to the shops and give the keys to granny for her trip to church on Sunday

Scary thought. It's only a matter of time until Paris Hilton gets one and then it isn't cool anymore. Plus, what's wrong with driving a Caparo to church? Big grin



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7109 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5565 times:



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):
Scary thought. It's only a matter of time until Paris Hilton gets one and then it isn't cool anymore. Plus, what's wrong with driving a Caparo to church?

So long as there are no speed bumps or driveways then ok, or you could put it on a trailer take a trip to your local holy man for a blessing on the way to your local track where hopefully the blessing will keep you safe and the car won't kill you. I'd rather have a Caterham Superlight 500 or CSR.


25 Aero145 : I understand. Haven’t read the StvO so I don’t know it too well, but on an empty Autobahn with good visibility, I think you have the rights to ma
26 FLY2HMO : That doesn't mean much. Jeremy Clarkson himself said the Bugatti handled like a big Lotus Elise, which is high praise and better than what most of th
27 BMI727 : Did you have the volume up? It didn't look that fast, but there was some tire squeal there. I think that it's just one of those cars that is dceptive
28 2H4 : Did anyone else notice that paint scheme? Matte blue with gloss blue. Cool effect. 2H4
29 Post contains links and images Flighty : For $1m you can buy a new Cessna 400 (the former Columbia 400) which cruises at 235 knots. Plus you have enough money left over to actually run the ai
30 Post contains images FLY2HMO : Are you kidding? I blast my speakers when I watch TG. What I was getting at is that compared to the caterham, the zonda, and many others the Bugatti
31 Asuflyer05 : The car is pretty breathtaking to look at. But from what I've heard it is a lot of work to drive.
32 Mir : The Phaeton is a fantastic car, on the level of the S-Class and 7-Series. But, unfortunately, the VW badge kills it. On the other hand, that does mak
33 Post contains images Aero145 : That’s better! The Lancair 4, with pressurisation and a turboprop (pictured is the piston engine version). Cruises @ 300 knots! That’s 555 km/h;
34 MIAspotter : WOW! I saw a Veyron last saturday in GVA when walking around, it was parked in front of the Four Seasons, I almost wet myself!! I could not believe it
35 Asuflyer05 : The F50 is one of my favorite Ferraris of all time.
36 Flighty : It never hit a chord with me but yes, it is one of Ferrari's great flagships. Ferrari had a party at the Peninsula in Hong Kong a few years back, to
37 Asuflyer05 : The Bugatti dealer in Phoenix has a Greenish Black Bugatti for sale. And a gentleman in town owns a Silver car. They are spectacular to see in person!
38 DiamondFlyer : As soon as I saw his picture of the Cessna/Columbia 400 Corvalis TT (or whatever fruity name Cessna put on it), I was going for the obligatory Mooney
39 Cpd : But Clarkson can not be trusted. He was practically praying to the lord for the Zonda F to be slower than the Veyron. It wasn't. I'm surprised he did
40 Post contains links Keesje : A nice Veyron clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NZ9X9A2efA
41 TheSonntag : If I had the money, I would buy a 911 Turbo Porsche anyway. Less power, but handles MUCH better...
42 FLY2HMO : If anything it was Hammond praying for the Zonda to beat the Veyron. The Zonda was 1:17.8, the Veyron did it in 1.18:3, that's exactly half a second
43 KiwiRob : So you've had an up close and personal with both cars? I have, I don't think there is a lot between them when it comes to attention to detail, on the
44 Molykote : Am I the only one with the impression that the Veyron is simply the "sum of its parts"? It's an incredible car in many regards but doesn't seem to hav
45 AustinAirport : Call me crazy, but I choose the plane.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Bugatti Veyron Hits Tree posted Tue Mar 6 2007 15:47:07 by Oli80
Bugatti Veyron posted Sun Nov 12 2006 20:29:00 by QR332
New Bugatti Veyron 16.4, 253 MPH, $1.25mil. posted Thu Oct 27 2005 03:42:17 by FlyMKG
What I Want For Christmas.. Bugatti posted Fri Sep 16 2005 21:16:52 by TedTAce