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"Nordic Model Is The Future Of Capitalism"  
User currently offlineAverageUser From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 8322 times:

Says Mr Jorma Ollila, chairman of Nokia and Royal Shell.


In an interview with the Financial Times, Mr Ollila said: “What is the future of capitalism? In one way or other the answer is to solve these issues that the Nordic model does well. These are the ingredients. The Nordic model has a good bid [to be the best system]”.

[Mr Ollila] said the Nordic style of capitalism was characterised by openness to globalisation balanced by strong government programmes to protect people from its excesses and an egalitarian education system


I'll watch with interest if the message sticks.

Link to FT

55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10895 posts, RR: 37
Reply 1, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8292 times:

Look at Linux, Nokia, Ikea, all Scandinavian companies. They have done great and they are still going strong. I hope they will keep doing well.

I always liked the Scandinavian enterprise Spirit.

Although look at Iceland. May not be good to be "too" Nordic.  Big grin



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8259 times:

I'd agree the only way forward for capitalism is to follow the Nordic model.

There is much to be said for transparency of government, everyone seems to know what everyone else earns, top earners in a town appear in lists in the local newspapers and strong unions bring stability to employment and therefore consumption.

Most of all the taxes you pay can be clearly seen being used to effect in the commumity.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 8244 times:



Quoting Babybus (Reply 2):
I'd agree the only way forward for capitalism is to follow the Nordic model.

If you want a Scandenavian model, move to Scandenavia. I'd say it only would work in a relatively homogeneous society. Our population will not do well under such a system - You have a good 25% of the population who will just sit on their asses and say 'gimme'.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently onlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7368 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 8227 times:

NZ is kinda modeled on the Scandinavian model and we do ok. Although after living in Norway for the last two years I've come to the realisation that a lot of people are paid way to much for the jobs that they do, this is then passed on to the consumers who pay exorbitant amounts of money for even the most basic of products and services.

Some examples

Men's haircut 60 USD
15km taxi ride 77 USD
Hourly rate at local Renault dealer 185 USD
Plumber hourly rate 95 USD plus travel time


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21461 posts, RR: 53
Reply 5, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 8221 times:



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 4):
Although after living in Norway for the last two years I've come to the realisation that a lot of people are paid way to much for the jobs that they do, this is then passed on to the consumers who pay exorbitant amounts of money for even the most basic of products and services.

Norway is a special case. Oil revenue increases incomes and prices there, but it also allows for relatively generous public spending without relying on personal taxes to the same extent as they would have to without the oil.


User currently offlineAverageUser From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 8204 times:



Quoting Klaus (Reply 5):
Norway is a special case

If you look at the statistics, they are not exceedingly special in the European context, but they have quietly stashed away quite a sum. http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/survey/so/2008/POL070908A.htm


User currently offline767Lover From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 8188 times:

Hmmmm. Norway has been drilling oil off its shores for about 3 decades. Something to think about.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 4):
Although after living in Norway for the last two years I've come to the realisation that a lot of people are paid way to much for the jobs that they do, this is then passed on to the consumers who pay exorbitant amounts of money for even the most basic of products and services.

They also have to pay a lot in taxes, so they have to make strong incomes, All those social services don't come free,


User currently offlineEaa3 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1015 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 8156 times:



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 1):
Although look at Iceland. May not be good to be "too" Nordic. Big grin

Iceland is a bit different. It´s probably the most capitalistic country in the world. You could make the case that the Icelandic banks collapsed in Iceland because the Icelandic government refused to intervene and put taxpayers money into the banks. I mean look at the United States and Europe: They have put trillions of dollars in capital and liquidity into the banks. The liquidity isn´t exactly taxpayer money but the capital is. Without this government intervention the entire system would have collapsed like in Iceland.

The Icelandic government decided that instead of using it´s money to prop up these private banks they would simply stand by and let them fail as private enterprise should if in trouble.

I think that ultimately central banks should definitely provide liquidity and capital for banks that are to "to big to fail" but that wasn't the case for the Icelandic banks so for the government to put taxpayer money into them would have been irresponsible.

Look at Ireland. They have taken on more debt than their GDP in order to save their banks. Iceland could have taken on 10x GDP in debt and that would have been much worse than Ireland.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17495 posts, RR: 45
Reply 9, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 8145 times:

Didn't Sweden have a similar financial crisis in the 90s?


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21461 posts, RR: 53
Reply 10, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 8124 times:



Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 8):
The Icelandic government decided that instead of using it´s money to prop up these private banks they would simply stand by and let them fail as private enterprise should if in trouble.

That's not really what happened as far as I know — the bubble was simply too big for even the icelandic state to handle, basically leading to state bankruptcy in the absence of sufficient public funds.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19699 posts, RR: 58
Reply 11, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 8125 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
If you want a Scandenavian model, move to Scandenavia. I'd say it only would work in a relatively homogeneous society. Our population will not do well under such a system - You have a good 25% of the population who will just sit on their asses and say 'gimme'.

I actually half-agree with Dreadnought. But part of the reason that that 25% of the population is sitting on their asses is because we don't educate them or prepare them for life in any way.

Now, there's also a lot of mental illness in that population. That, unfortunately, is not fixable without euthanasia/eugenics. I'll leave it up to you, Dready, to suggest that approach, but I'll warn you that it hasn't been terribly popular since 1945.  Wink

My solution would simply be to limit reproductive freedom for those on welfare. You can have as many kids as you like as long as you can pay for them. If you can't pay for them, then you get two. If you have more than two, then they all get taken away. If you have two and you want to continue getting welfare, then you need to have a form of permanent or semi-permanent birth control or you don't get welfare. Don't like it? Get a job and pay for your kids and have octuplets to your heart's content.

But ultimately, the Nordic model does work. And they aren't as homogenous as you think up there. They have a burgeoning immigrant population that they educate and take care of and that immigrant population comes out ready to work.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21461 posts, RR: 53
Reply 12, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 8115 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
Now, there's also a lot of mental illness in that population. That, unfortunately, is not fixable without euthanasia/eugenics.

Apart from the obvious moral limitations which preclude it I rather doubt that it's a matter of genetics.

Improve people's education and offer them more incentives and opportunities for better circumstances and you'll see the amount of severe problems drop.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
My solution would simply be to limit reproductive freedom for those on welfare. You can have as many kids as you like as long as you can pay for them. If you can't pay for them, then you get two. If you have more than two, then they all get taken away.

Come on — aren't you a bit harsh on the breeders...?  mischievous 


User currently offlineEaa3 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1015 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 8081 times:



Quoting Klaus (Reply 10):
That's not really what happened as far as I know — the bubble was simply too big for even the icelandic state to handle, basically leading to state bankruptcy in the absence of sufficient public funds.

There was no state bankruptcy at all. Not even close. I don't know what you mean by bubble. What happened is that the banks became to big for the state to be able to save them and they decided that they wouldn't even try but the banks weren't a bubble. A similar thing is happening in Ireland. Their banks are too big compared to GDP but they are trying to save them and are mortgaging their future in the process.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19699 posts, RR: 58
Reply 14, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 8069 times:



Quoting Klaus (Reply 12):

Come on — aren't you a bit harsh on the breeders...? mischievous

Not when they're breeding at age 15 and producing kids who have no hope of ever living productive lives.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 12):

Apart from the obvious moral limitations which preclude it I rather doubt that it's a matter of genetics.

It is very genetic. Hundreds of studies have confirmed this. Behavior is genetic. Don't believe me? Would you rather leave your small child alone with a golden retriever or a pit bull? Behavior is genetic. And, as Mark Twain once said, "Stupidity, when protected, breeds."

We have to stop funding dysfunctional people having 10+ kids. Look at octo-mom. That should have NEVER been permitted. And the simple, ethical, and effective solution is simply to mandate that people must be able to pay for their kids.

I've worked with the welfare population a lot in my life. Many of these folks have kids for secondary gain. The teenage girls do it for respect, to have someone who will love them, to try to keep that man with them, etc. The older women do it for another welfare check.

I'll never forget the mom who came in for her 8th kid and 5th C-section. All on welfare, of course. The OB/GYN said during the C-section (which gets more and more complicated every time you do it because of the scar tissue) "I really don't recommend you do this again. I can tie your tubes right now, but if I don't, the next time could well kill you!" and the woman said "I'm just gon' keep on havin' 'em until I cain't!"

I paid for those 8 kids. So did every other taxpayer in New York. And I resent it.


User currently onlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7368 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 8063 times:



Quoting Klaus (Reply 5):
Norway is a special case. Oil revenue increases incomes and prices there, but it also allows for relatively generous public spending without relying on personal taxes to the same extent as they would have to without the oil.

Well if the govt are spending all the money on the public I sure as hell don't know where it's going, the roads in Norway are by a fair margin the worst in Europe, the school system badly needs more schools and refurbishment of existing ones, the health system needs new hospitals, the infrastructure in Norway has been suffering form underinvestment for a very long time.

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 7):
They also have to pay a lot in taxes, so they have to make strong incomes, All those social services don't come free,

I don't think I pay a lot of tax, I make high 6 figures, my income tax is 32% this year, last year I paid 37% but got a significant refund. What you pay in tax is dependant on things like your mortgage and the amount of interest you are paying per year.


User currently offlineVictrola From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 514 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 8057 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
We have to stop funding dysfunctional people having 10+ kids. Look at octo-mom. That should have NEVER been permitted. And the simple, ethical, and effective solution is simply to mandate that people must be able to pay for their kids.

I agree 100% with DocLightning on this one. If we followed such a policy, poverty and other social problems would plummet in the United States.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13206 posts, RR: 77
Reply 17, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 8029 times:

'Nordic' also means other Scandinavian nations, not just Norway.

And yes, some of us have thought this a better model for a long time.
(Bearing in mind here, that defending the US/Anglo Saxon model of more recent times with the whole massive, destructive weight of the reality of the economic crisis enveloping us, is really not a good idea. Reality bites? This reality has torn a limb off).

Here's another, why are the nations that have this sort of system much, much better than both the US or UK, in relation to violent crime, underage/unwanted pregnancies, drug addiction, family breakdown, domestic violence and plenty more besides.
The bigger your underclass, the more negative problems that always end up affecting the rest of society, you'll get.

As for educational attainment, well guess who wins out there too.

From a British perspective, I note that even some British Conservative politicians have been casting their eyes across the North Sea as they prepare policies for the future.
If we are going to take, or adapt ideas from elsewhere, then the Scandinavian nations not only offer some good solutions in some cases, but also, have more similarities to us anyway.
Sweden, Norway, Denmark, the Dutch are even similar in political structure in many ways, being constitutional monarchies for a start.

It's very hard to try and sell the idea that these nations are, to American eyes maybe, some kind of economically crippled socialist states.
Look at Sweden, (no big oil revenues for them), now think of the major world class companies from there.
SAAB, Volvo, Erickson, Scania, Ikea to name the obvious ones, and culturally they punch well above their population weight.

So this whole argument that you need almost unrestrained capitalism (even more so in the financial area), to grow world class businesses is and has always been, a deliberate lie.
Propagated by the types who took those massive bonuses even as their companies imploded, by those who undermine democracy with all their lobbying/bribery, by those in power who materially gained from this.

Business like stability best, so having an intrinsically unstable model seems rather counter intuitive, though of course those who wanted this the most were the ones 'making' money from nothing.
Not that the Scandinavian nations are any kind of utopia, such a place is impossible in human existence, but I'd swap our problems for theirs.

Really, defending what we've had up to now, in the Anglo Saxon world at least, is rather like defending Jim Jones and his cult they day after he and 900 of his followers committed mass suicide, back in 1978.
False gods. Him and our until recent 'Masters Of The Universe'.


User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12250 posts, RR: 35
Reply 18, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 8026 times:
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Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 4):
Men's haircut 60 USD

Also keep in mind that hourly wages are much higher. Minimum wage in Norway is about $15, and pretty much nobody makes minimum wage. Minimum wage in the US is more or less $7, and a haircut at a decent salon here will run you $30. So either way you're putting four hours of work into a haircut.

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 7):
They also have to pay a lot in taxes, so they have to make strong incomes,

My mom just got her tax return, and she paid 33% in taxes in 2008. Our sales tax is also 25%.



911, where is your emergency?
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14026 posts, RR: 62
Reply 19, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7988 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
I'll never forget the mom who came in for her 8th kid and 5th C-section. All on welfare, of course. The OB/GYN said during the C-section (which gets more and more complicated every time you do it because of the scar tissue) "I really don't recommend you do this again. I can tie your tubes right now, but if I don't, the next time could well kill you!" and the woman said "I'm just gon' keep on havin' 'em until I cain't!"

If they can get contraceptives for free through the welfare system, there is no excuse for having lots of kids they can't support.
But I suspect that the usual religious types will be strictly against supplying free contraceptives, claiming that it will lead to promiscuity and sin, and will only accept sexual abstinence, meaning that whoever is on welfare shouldn't have sex.

Jan


User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6812 posts, RR: 34
Reply 20, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7984 times:

Ah yes, the Scandinavian superpowers!!

This is laughable. They can have their system, that's fine.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8535 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7956 times:



Quoting Slider (Reply 20):
This is laughable. They can have their system, that's fine.

Agreed. I think the USA is much more impressive. We should have a health care system like theirs. Also, free education (including college) is probably a good policy. It pays for itself in terms of superior wages and therefore tax revenue. Also, their environmental policies are largely very good. But as an overall framework, they have just as much ridiculous nonsense as we do. In some cases, far worse. I wouldn't necessarily want to run a business in Norway or Sweden. They have a few standout companies. Our outlook at that front is just as good.


User currently offlineSv7887 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1025 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 7930 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 21):
Also, free education (including college) is probably a good policy. It pays for itself in terms of superior wages and therefore tax revenue. Also, their environmental policies are largely very good.

It's also not a tenable system. The UK is a good example of this. They used to have virtually free education. But they've had to roll it back somewhat because the Universities couldn't get enough revenue.

The top UK universities: Oxford, Cambridge, LSE, Imperial, etc have come to rely heavily on foreign students (especially at the Grad level) to make money. They also charge "top up" fees to undergrads. But you get what you pay for.

If you look at the top ranked universities in the world it's no surprise that the top British and American (both public and private) universities dominate the rankings. They are well funded and provide a much better education.

Source: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article502784.ece

I'm not saying we shouldn't strive for better access to education, but the problem with "Free" is that it lends itself to abuse. If you're paying for at least some part of your education, there is a degree of commitment there.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 7916 times:



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 19):
But I suspect that the usual religious types will be strictly against supplying free contraceptives, claiming that it will lead to promiscuity and sin, and will only accept sexual abstinence, meaning that whoever is on welfare shouldn't have sex.

We are talking about sterilization, not just birth control. I'm all for it.

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 22):
I'm not saying we shouldn't strive for better access to education, but the problem with "Free" is that it lends itself to abuse. If you're paying for at least some part of your education, there is a degree of commitment there.

We could offer free university level education but only for skills which we know are needed. Engineers, physics, medicine, agronomy, and things like that. Fund those by completely withdrawing all public funds from professions which don't give a high return on investment from a society's point of view, like Law schools, psychology, basket weaving, history etc. If you want to study those things - YOU pay for it.

The only problem with my idea is that politicians will get to decide which careers get promoted. Anyone want to bet that they put Law School up there? The last thing we need on this planet are more lawyers.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineAero145 From Iceland, joined Jan 2005, 3071 posts, RR: 20
Reply 24, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 7899 times:

Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 8):
It´s probably the most capitalistic country in the world.

Don’t be too sure about that.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 1):
May not be good to be "too" Nordic.

With the majority of the population derived from Norwegian people and being very much in the north - it is quite nordic in my opinion. The language is also very nordic - heck, it’s modernised Norse.  Smile

[Edited 2009-03-26 13:04:54]

25 DocLightning : And they can get free contraceptives. Except lately the range of contraceptives that are covered by Medicaid keeps getting smaller and smaller. The W
26 KiwiRob : Yup the Nordic countries are Scandinavia (Norway, Denmark, Sweden) plus Iceland, The Faroe Islands and Finland.[Edited 2009-03-26 13:35:05]
27 Aero145 : And Greenland and Aaland too!
28 KiwiRob : Once Greenland gains independance in June it won't be part of the Danish Crown, the people are in the vast majority Inuit and the only official langua
29 Aero145 : It’s not June, it’s March. Aren’t the Faroe Islands a province of Denmark? Yes, the people speak Faroese but the islands are still a province of
30 Doona : Here in Sweden, I pay around that for a haircut, but it's not because it's really that expensive. The reason is that a court ruled that making the sa
31 KiwiRob : My bad. Yup I forgot about that I'm sure the Danish taxpayers haven't, for a small place with a small population they have incredible roads, sub-sea
32 StasisLAX : uote=DocLightning,reply=25]Demanding unrealistic behavior as the solution to social problems is not going to work[/quote] No, but demanding that corpo
33 DXing : And then along comes the Saab story. Yet for some strange reason we don't demand that they do whatever they can to edcuate themselves. If the nordic
34 Aero145 : My feeling exactly when I paid them a visit (courtesy of Atlantic Airways). On another note: Have you got relatives or are you from any of the Nordic
35 Baroque : Quite, but even more interesting is the different fist that Norway and the UK made out of reserves of a similar size - I don't think the larger size
36 KiwiRob : That isn't Saab's fault, the blame for this issue rests solely in the heads of HM Married to a Norwegian, two half Kiwi, half Norwegian children and
37 Post contains images Confuscius : Case in point: Swedish Bikini Team
38 767Lover : I was also factoring in sales tax (25%?)
39 767Lover : Laugh, but... "The economic growth of the country (Norway) was just below the OECD average until the 1970s when Norway discovered vast amount of petr
40 AverageUser : The Åland Islands is an autonomously governed province of Finland. Unlike the rest of Finland, it's not officially bilingual with Finnish and Swedis
41 Alessandro : BS, Finland don´t have any population growth, Swedens companies (Volvo and SAAB cars, Bofors guns, ABB and so on) are sold to abroad and got one of t
42 DocLightning : Oh yeah, then the other thing about the so-called "conservative" ideology is that after demanding unrealistic behavior from citizens and providing no
43 MD11Engineer : The only tax which is really high in Norwayis the one on alcoholic drinks, but this is a political (and religious) issue. The southern half of Norway
44 Alessandro : To the fortune of border towns in Sweden towards Norway, like Strömstad, AKA Tijuana of Scandinavia.
45 MadameConcorde : Don't get me wrong. I have always been a great admirer of Norway and I love to visit there. I would have made the move if I did not have so much diff
46 KiwiRob : Not true, the tax on new cars is also outreagious, the Norwegian carpark is the oldest in Europe. So out cars coupled with poor roads leads to a lot
47 Post contains links Eaa3 : According to the United Nations Human Development Index Iceland was the best country in the world to live in. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Deve
48 AverageUser : Yes, the idea of egality that is fundamental to Nordic social thinking has its roots in the evangelical (pietist) movement, that was decidedly anti-e
49 Post contains links and images Aero145 : Nice to hear about you being in Norway now! I also have problems with understanding Norwegian as it sounds like a mixture of Føroyskt (which is writ
50 Baroque : But you forgot to add the following. Oil reserves for Noway peaked at 12 billion barrels in 1997 and have since fallen to 8.2 billion barrels in 2007
51 KiwiRob : I disagree the basis for the Nordic model is called Jante Law, for some reason the Nordic people took this idea up and ran with it. The concept was c
52 GDB : Indeed Baroque, Maggie did certainly squander the oil bonanza she inherited. While some pretty major reforms in the economy and the unions were needed
53 AverageUser : Lego blocks with different base plans don't play, but there is no limit for those that fit together.[Edited 2009-03-27 14:31:39]
54 Alessandro : Some Norwegian moved to Sweden to afford his dream, to own a Ferrari. Sure tax on cars are silly in Norway, Denmark, Finland and Iceland.
55 Baroque : Ironically, the UK should have been better situated to take advantage. Probably Thatcher would have criticised the Norwegians for being to monopolist
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