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Finally, Nato Becomes A Real Force...  
User currently offlineTripleDelta From Croatia, joined Jul 2004, 1123 posts, RR: 6
Posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2404 times:
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... with the addition of two superpowers, Albania and Croatia  biggrin .

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7977332.stm

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/SID-6F8CF...D-29EDD8F7/natolive/news_52342.htm

Maybe we can form a joint MiG-19/21 fighting force to show the West how it's done!  biggrin 


No plane, no gain.
30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7703 posts, RR: 21
Reply 1, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2359 times:
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NATO is so ridiculous. It should have been dissolved after the fall of the Soviet Union and the end of the Warsaw Pact. Seriously, it is outmoded, unnecessary and pointless.


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineTripleDelta From Croatia, joined Jul 2004, 1123 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2351 times:
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Quoting RussianJet (Reply 1):
NATO is so ridiculous. It should have been dissolved after the fall of the Soviet Union and the end of the Warsaw Pact. Seriously, it is outmoded, unnecessary and pointless.

A local analyst has said (read it on a local portal) that the effect Albania and Croatia can have in NATO is very small to nonexistent. Apart from support missions in Afghanistan, there isn't all that much either can do, that's true. Logistics and equipment are the main problems, not so much the will and commitment...



No plane, no gain.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15744 posts, RR: 27
Reply 3, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2341 times:



Quoting TripleDelta (Thread starter):
with the addition of two superpowers, Albania and Croatia

Don't be hating on the Albanians and Croatians. They can hand out food as well as anyone else.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7703 posts, RR: 21
Reply 4, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2328 times:
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Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
Don't be hating on the Albanians and Croatians

Errr, hating? Apart from the fact that the OP is from Croatia, it was clearly a joke. Please let's get a sense of proportion. Hand out food? Hmm, well if that was we in NATO's primary objective and reason for existence then I would be rather more in favour of this ridiculous, outmoded alliance.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15744 posts, RR: 27
Reply 5, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2326 times:



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 4):
it was clearly a joke

As was I.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 4):
Hand out food? Hmm, well if that was we in NATO's primary objective and reason for existence then I would be rather more in favour of this ridiculous, outmoded alliance.

Yeah, they aren't much good for handing out food either. I'm sure that they can't decide what food to hand out. British say fish and chips. Germans want to send sauerkraut. America wants to keep the food for themselves and just build a few fast food joints.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineTripleDelta From Croatia, joined Jul 2004, 1123 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2313 times:
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Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
Don't be hating on the Albanians and Croatians. They can hand out food as well as anyone else.

As RussianJet pointed out, it was an attempt at some light-hearted sarcasm. But despite that, at least from the Croatian perspective, there really isn't much the military can do at the moment, outside of the regular Afghanistan contingent - a force that isn't tipping any scales.

To give some indication of the problem, there was some talk of sending one CroAF An-32 along with the contingent - only one aircraft and a useful one at that. The whole thing failed miserably because the CroAF simply doesn't have the infrastructure and equipment for that. And if we can't send a single aircraft - which the Afghan airforce operates/ed as well and which was designed for backwater flying and hammer-and-screwdriver maintenance - you can imagine what impact the Cro armed forces may have. I think an Mi-8 was also on the cards, but that failed as well.

The same is with the navy. A typical sailing club has more ships than the Cro Navy has combat-capable vessels and the majority of ground troops aren't all that well equipped either. The APC deal going around will help matters, but there's still the question of numbers.

EDIT: and there's the question of money. Though the current crisis will blow over in time and the armed forces will finally get their hands on some new equipment, maintaining a large force for work in distant theaters is somewhat out of the country's budget - especially when there are far more pressing matters which need investing. Croatia in NATO is a "paper force".

[Edited 2009-04-01 12:51:24]


No plane, no gain.
User currently offlineOa260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26992 posts, RR: 57
Reply 7, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2295 times:



Quoting TripleDelta (Thread starter):
Maybe we can form a joint MiG-19/21 fighting force to show the West how it's done!

lol....

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 1):
NATO is so ridiculous. It should have been dissolved after the fall of the Soviet Union and the end of the Warsaw Pact. Seriously, it is outmoded, unnecessary and pointless.

Hmm the jurys out on that one , im 50/50


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 8, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2265 times:



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 1):
NATO is so ridiculous. It should have been dissolved after the fall of the Soviet Union and the end of the Warsaw Pact.

NATO was conceived as an alliance of defence for all members, while the Warsaw Pact was conceived as a military alliance that serves the purpose of the Soviet Union, mainly to keep communism consolidated in the satellite states, along with being a counterweight to NATO. Sure, you may accuse the United States of the same thing in NATO, but let's face it, NATO has never infringed on the rights of its member nations and its citizens, the Warsaw Pact did (see the Brezhnev doctrine and the bloody crushing of protestors by Warsaw Pact troops during the Hungarian Revolution 1956 and during the Prague Spring 1968).

The Warsaw Pact was more directed at being ready to enter war and securing the hegemony of the Soviet Union, while NATO is more focussed on defence (e.g. through Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty, which was invoked only once, after 9/11) and allowing its member nations to keep their own foreign policy. Members of the WP basically renounced their own foreign policy to adopt the one imposed by Moscow.

NATO does need to re-invent itself, because for me it's a valuable alliance. Hans-Dietrich Genscher is right though when he says that NATO can't become a world police. NATO has to stay true to its principle of being a defence alliance and an important partner in military and world affairs (such as e.g. being involved in peace keeping missions, like in Afghanistan).


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7703 posts, RR: 21
Reply 9, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2258 times:
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Quoting LTU932 (Reply 8):
while NATO is more focussed on defence

In theory yes, though in practice no, as with the Bombing of Belgrade.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 10, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2231 times:



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 9):
In theory yes, though in practice no, as with the Bombing of Belgrade.

You seem to be using the bombing of Belgrade as an excuse to denounce NATO. Sure, we can debate as to whether the bombing was justified as a deterrent, to get Milosevic to stop the atrocities in Kosovo, or if it was just a random act of war, but that's for a different thread.

In any case, why don't you think about what the Warsaw Pact did to secure peace. Did the WP secure peace? No, because it was more focussed on being the extended arm of the Soviet Union and the Red Army.

Maybe if Russia would stop insisting on being as isolated as it is today, maybe Putin and his henchmen would see things more objectively, but no, the vast majority of things that come from the west, are still seen as evil by Russia. It's as if Soviet mentality never left the Kreml, even after 1991.  Yeah sure


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 11, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2231 times:

When one expands a military alliance, even one of purely defense purposes, to the point of nearly encircling another nation, that nation is naturally going to feel threatened. The defense purposes policy, after all, can be changed at a matter of whim. And the "world police" thing is already going on anyways.

Now luckily, the nation in question is a tiny, not very powerful nation, usually neutral in conflicts and with a long and friendly past called Switzerland. And thank God for that, imagine if we were doing this to Russia or something?

  

[Edited 2009-04-01 13:50:27]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineFatmirJusufi From Albania, joined Jan 2009, 2441 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2220 times:

Welcome Albania and Croatia to NATO alliance.  Wink

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 9):
In theory yes, though in practice no, as with the Bombing of Belgrade.

Do you know the reason why did they do that?
If not, I'll tell you. They stopped holocaust against Albanians in Kosovo. Stopped killings, massacres, rapes, robs, burnings... they saved us. That's important.

Fatmir



DO FLIGHTS. NOT FIGHTS.
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 13, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2220 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11):
Now luckily, the nation in question is a tiny, not very powerful nation, usually neutral in conflicts and with a long and friendly past called Switzerland. And thank God for that, imagine if we were doing this to Russia or something?

The countries that are joining NATO are doing this voluntarily. They're not being forced by the United States, Germany, France or somebody else to join and yet, all of NATO gets heat by Russia. The same thing goes for the EU expansion to the East, which Russia was, and still is, categorically against because it has now encircled their little enclave of Kaliningrad, the old Ostpreußen.

It's as if Russia was also still looking at those countries, as if they were still Soviet satellite states.

And also, to Shqipëria (Albania) and Hrvatska (Croatia) joining NATO: Welcome, Willkommen, bienvenue!

[Edited 2009-04-01 13:39:10]

User currently offlineFlyingSicilian From Italy, joined Mar 2009, 1332 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2178 times:

They will get to use and staff the NATO E-3s at Geilenkirchen which will be a benefit with very little outlay of funds, plus they will get better and sync'd comm gear plus data link to the E-3s. The will get more access to professional military schools and joint training as well.

It is a huge benefit for them. Just because Joe Public is not aware of something doesn't mean it is not beneficial to them.



“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7703 posts, RR: 21
Reply 15, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2165 times:
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Quoting FatmirJusufi (Reply 12):
They stopped holocaust against Albanians in Kosovo. Stopped killings, massacres, rapes, robs, burnings... they saved us. That's important.

The claimed reasons are well known to me and totally irrelevant to the point I made.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 10):
You seem to be using the bombing of Belgrade as an excuse to denounce NATO

Nope, just as an example.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineOV735 From Estonia, joined Jan 2004, 913 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2111 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 4):
Please let's get a sense of proportion. Hand out food? Hmm, well if that was we in NATO's primary objective and reason for existence then I would be rather more in favour of this ridiculous, outmoded alliance.

Ridiculous and outmoded?

Perhaps Medvedev's latest, khm, "decision", to start an upgrade program for the Russian armed forces should be reviewed as well?

After all, if the largest country in the world by territory has about 120 active fighter jets, which is about twice as much as Finland does... what are we really talking about? Low morale, the dedovschina, regular suicides in service, a service period twice as long as any normal Western country, uneducated military staffing from the bottom to the highest levels, the outdated technology (from the ancient T-72 tank, the Ural 375 truck that dates back to the 1960s, to the Tu-95 bombers). In fact, the only thing that could save (and at the same time, destroy) Russia in case of a major attack from any country larger than, say Poland, is its hefty nuclear arsenal.

So, a ridiculous and outmoded army as it is... why keep it and spend money on trying to revive a skeleton?

The fact that Putin and his lap dog still do think about boosting the deteriorating army is in itself a clear sign that NATO is needed.

That being said, I do myself often wonder, why has NATO accepted the burden when they opened the door to small, (relatively) powerless countries that can well turn into a hotspot within the next 20 years due to the proximity of a large, aggressive and unpredictable neighbor. A good example are the Baltic states, for example. Surely, it's boosted the morale, confidence and development of the local populations, but in case things get hot, are they really worth the trouble?

[Edited 2009-04-01 16:06:23]

User currently offlineKiqaboy From Sweden, joined Feb 2006, 171 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2086 times:

I think Albania will sen some troops to Kosova as full NATO member now, and if this happens i hope that they decide to send them in the northern Mitrovica.

These to new countries will not contribute a lot but at last the Mediterranean coast now is fully controlled by the Western forces.



once upone time
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26992 posts, RR: 57
Reply 18, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2083 times:



Quoting Kiqaboy (Reply 17):
and if this happens i hope that they decide to send them in the northern Mitrovica.

What for ? To raise tensions and start another war?? They will not be allowed anywhere near these areas by the EU or NATO. They would not be welcome there anyway.


User currently offlineIliriBDL From Germany, joined May 2007, 1205 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1973 times:



Quoting OA260 (Reply 18):
They would not be welcome there anyway.

Just because they're Albanian?




And yeah, congrats to both Croatia and Albania, this is great news for both countries.  Smile



delta.com
User currently offlineTripleDelta From Croatia, joined Jul 2004, 1123 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1940 times:
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Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 14):
They will get to use and staff the NATO E-3s at Geilenkirchen which will be a benefit with very little outlay of funds, plus they will get better and sync'd comm gear plus data link to the E-3s.

How is that a benefit to us?



No plane, no gain.
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7703 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1918 times:
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Quoting OV735 (Reply 16):
Perhaps Medvedev's latest, khm, "decision", to start an upgrade program for the Russian armed forces should be reviewed as well?

In which case may I suggest starting a thread on that topic? This one is about NATO (and I come from and live in a NATO country).



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5712 posts, RR: 18
Reply 22, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1884 times:



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 1):
NATO is so ridiculous

If it is so ridiculous, then why does it causes so much stir in Kremlin?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 10):
When one expands a military alliance, even one of purely defense purposes, to the point of nearly encircling another nation, that nation is naturally going to feel threatened. The defense purposes policy, after all, can be changed at a matter of whim.

The nation in question feels threatened by everything they do not directly control, it's part of their collective national psyché.
Ask the Baltic countries about the consequences of being left out in the cold.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 8):
the Warsaw Pact did (see the Brezhnev doctrine and the bloody crushing of protestors by Warsaw Pact troops during the Hungarian Revolution 1956 and during the Prague Spring 1968

... and almost "liberated" Poland in winter 1981/82. As weird as it may sound martial law declared by Jaruzelski most likely saved the country from the invasion.


User currently offlineFatmirJusufi From Albania, joined Jan 2009, 2441 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1878 times:



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 19):
Quoting OA260 (Reply 18):
They would not be welcome there anyway.

Just because they're Albanian?

They're already part of NATO alliance.  Wink

Fatmir



DO FLIGHTS. NOT FIGHTS.
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7703 posts, RR: 21
Reply 24, posted (5 years 5 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1873 times:
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Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 22):
If it is so ridiculous, then why does it causes so much stir in Kremlin?

Sorry, what's the logic here? The expansion of the long defunct yet highly suspicious NATO worries Russia, therefore it is a good thing? A pretty strange argument.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
25 OA260 : Its called ''conflict of interests'' and NATO would not allow it as they know the tension it would cause. Just like other instances where NATO has pl
26 FlyingSicilian : It gives Hrvatska the ability to use the best AEW&C system in the world for nearly nothing for both beyond the horizon and sea lane surveilance-again
27 Kiqaboy : I have heard that Croatia will upgrade some of its fixed wing and some new helicopters, but what about Albania are they going to have any combat aircr
28 FatmirJusufi : Kushtrim I found something. It's only in Albanian! Regards, Fatmir
29 TripleDelta : Again, what use is that to us? Who are we going to look at over the horizon? And if something interesting shows up, what would/could we do about it?
30 TripleDelta : The fixed wing upgrade has been put on ice due to the current economic situation. The rotary fleet has been renewed with Mi-171s acquired as part of
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