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What The President Should Have Said  
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3405 times:

We can always arm chair our leaders and criticize what they say , but I cant help imagining how I would have framed his speech to the EU.

1. Recognition of the EU for there successful growth of industry and advances in technology. Mention actual programs and advances .

2. Highlight our industrial cooperation .... A380 , B787 industrial cooperation , supply chain cooperation , military program cooperation. Automotive industry cooperation , science , space , medical technology advancements . Highlight these as effects of free-market enterprise and the shared commitment too advance the well being of mankind. And most of all how this cooperation is the worlds engine of high tech job creation and economic power.

3. Speak of the cooperative alliance against terror and mutual support of democratic ideals and freedom . Give examples of our bravest and best , fighting on battlefields together.. dieing and bleeding so that other's may join us. Speak of the growth and prosperity of our coalition and the effects that it has throughout the world. How the nations once under oppresive regime are now heading towards peacful stability and market expansion.

4. Bring it home .... talk about our shared love of the arts ... movies ... music and the great works of our entertainers who do so much to help people all over the world. Speak of our great cooperation at our universities. How our universities perform research and how the great collaboration of our educated classes push the frontiers of science , arts and creativity .

I just got more of a feeling like ... "for the first time I am proud of my country" from my President . That somehow he is dilluted into the idea that his administration is all he thinks it is ... and that it is the new dawn of our nations.


You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
56 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21415 posts, RR: 54
Reply 1, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3364 times:



Quoting AGM100 (Thread starter):
I just got more of a feeling like ... "for the first time I am proud of my country" from my President . That somehow he is dilluted into the idea that his administration is all he thinks it is ... and that it is the new dawn of our nations.

He didn't come across as self-obsessed at all, and both the public and the media echo reflected a very warm, positive and open image he and his wife projected with their appearances over here in all three countries (Britain, France and Germany). People primarily see him as a most welcome representative of a change for the better in almost every respect, and at least at this (early) point he does seem to justify it, too.

Obama did in fact present most of the ideas you've mentioned above, if maybe not exactly in the same words you might have used.

Especially under the difficult circumstances I doubt he could have made an even better impression if he tried. His visit made a huge step forwards in reconnecting Europe and the USA in positive and constructive ways, especially in terms of mutual attitudes.

I know it doesn't come easy to you, but you could just as well try to be a little proud of your President. He (and his wife) really made you guys look good again! And believe me, it's a lot more fun to cheer for and with you than to complain and criticize!  bigthumbsup 


User currently offlineDXing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3330 times:



Quoting Klaus (Reply 1):
His visit made a huge step forwards in reconnecting Europe and the USA in positive and constructive ways, especially in terms of mutual attitudes.

Sure, it's easy for Europeans to agree with a person who bascally blames the United States for everything over the past 8 years and yet doesn't mention any faults he finds in European actions. There are so many positive things he could have said but unfortunately passed on Nice to know we have a President who is willing to go USA bashing on foreign soil.  embarrassed 


User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3321 times:



Quoting Klaus (Reply 1):
President. He (and his wife) really made you guys look good again!

No personalities are required to make us look good. And that is all they really offer at this point ... Some of us do not subscribe to the cult of personality ... we prefer reality.

Our nations have been forces for good in this world ... period. We don't need slick acceptable personalities to ingratiate us to anyone, the deeds of our nations speak louder than this.

As a citizen of the US , I am glad that you like our President and first lady. I understand that it may also be simply a veiled final insult to our past administration. That is more likely the intention of all of this blushing and pandering.



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21415 posts, RR: 54
Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3308 times:



Quoting DXing (Reply 2):
Sure, it's easy for Europeans to agree with a person who bascally blames the United States for everything over the past 8 years and yet doesn't mention any faults he finds in European actions. There are so many positive things he could have said but unfortunately passed on Nice to know we have a President who is willing to go USA bashing on foreign soil.

You must have been watching a different event, apparently.

Obama didn't sugarcoat problematic areas, he just managed to speak about those without becoming offensive (and ineffective).

If you think that listening to others and admission of your own (obvious!) problems was a sign of weakness you're quite mistaken. Done right it can be a very effective base to promote one's own interests by motivating others to cooperate in good faith. And especially considering that this was Obama's first major summit it was done exceptionally well — not ceding ground where it would have hurt, but building bridges where bridges will be sorely needed in the years to come.

He was clearly gathering public support on this side of the Atlantic to make it easier for our governments to lend support to the US which could be much harder and more expensive to come by in a climate of suspicion and resentment as we've had it for years by now.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21415 posts, RR: 54
Reply 5, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3296 times:



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 3):
No personalities are required to make us look good.

Thank god you're not vain in the least! That would really put a blotch on your otherwise totally and completely spotless reputation!  rotfl 

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 3):
And that is all they really offer at this point ... Some of us do not subscribe to the cult of personality ... we prefer reality.

The closing of the horrendous Guantanamo gulag and the abrogation of torture by the Obama administration are very much and extremely important reality!

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 3):
Our nations have been forces for good in this world ... period.

"Period" would suggest that there was absolutely nothing objectionable in the respective histories. And that is unfortunately not the case, as much positive as there is.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 3):
We don't need slick acceptable personalities to ingratiate us to anyone, the deeds of our nations speak louder than this.

I don't know about "slick", but you do indeed need "acceptable" personalities to recover from the nightmarish perception the previous administration has earned you through the years.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 3):
As a citizen of the US , I am glad that you like our President and first lady. I understand that it may also be simply a veiled final insult to our past administration.

As you should really know by now, I most certainly wouldn't need to "veil" any well-deserved insults to the former administration. Good riddance!  yuck 

But I also recognize and acknowledge the positive where I have the chance. And even though you have not voted for him, President Obama does indeed make you look good again to the world. And whether you like it or not, you will still share the benefits of the improving american image in the world. I fear you'll have to suffer through this, as hard as it is!  mischievous 

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 3):
That is more likely the intention of all of this blushing and pandering.

Or maybe you just can't bring yourself to acknowledging anything positive outside of your own slice of the political spectrum.

What a pity!


User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6574 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3293 times:
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Quoting AGM100 (Thread starter):
, B787 industrial cooperation , supply chain cooperation ,

"787" and "supply chain" is an oxymoron  Smile



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineDXing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3263 times:



Quoting Klaus (Reply 4):
He was clearly gathering public support on this side of the Atlantic to make it easier for our governments to lend support to the US

I have a problem with a President that says we are now operating under a differnt set of rules and then continues to bash the former President. Eisenhower didn't do it to Truman, Kennedy didn't do it to Eisenhower, Nixon didn't do it to Johnson, Carter didn't do it to Ford, Reagan didn't do it to Carter, Clinton did do it to Bush41, Bush 43 didn't do it to Clinton, but now Obama feels the need to bash Bush both above and below the board. Either take responsibilty and say, what happened before is over and this is now or don't, but don't expect to have it both ways. Seems like whenever he wants to rev up the crowd he reverts to campaign mode no matter what the cost to the entire nation.

Look at what he said on Pakistan. He completely let Europe and NATO off the hook if he decides to go into Pakistan after AQ and not one European country said, whoa, let us help! Now that is support we can count on right?  sarcastic 


User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6574 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3255 times:
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Quoting DXing (Reply 7):
European country said, whoa, let us help!

Here is one:

""We totally endorse and support America's new strategy in Afghanistan," Sarkozy told a joint news conference. France will contribute to the new U.S. approach with development assistance and more training for police, Sarkozy said."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...FXCuDhHGhjd0MDv_TA2TOcdPAD97B2QPG0



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8023 posts, RR: 26
Reply 9, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3244 times:



Quoting DXing (Reply 2):
Sure, it's easy for Europeans to agree with a person who bascally blames the United States for everything over the past 8 years and yet doesn't mention any faults he finds in European actions.

Is there an alternative Obama speech being aired on the right wing circuit? He specifically called out certain arms of European anti-Americanism as unfounded and, direct quote, "insidious". Again partisanship knows know limits when it comes to omitting inconvenient facts!

And did not Mr. Sarkozy mention in his joint conference with Obama yesterday that he'd like to remind French citizens of the American blood spilled in France, just in case anyone is skeptical of providing additional help in Afghanistan? Again, just an oversight or a casual omission?  cheeky 



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21415 posts, RR: 54
Reply 10, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3217 times:



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 9):
Is there an alternative Obama speech being aired on the right wing circuit?

Apparently. It must be the same circuit that's been missing the aggressive attacks of ex vice president Cheney on Obama having "made the USA less safe" with his decisions, despite his obvious lack of access to current intelligence information.

Talk about classless!

Quoting DXing (Reply 7):
I have a problem with a President that says we are now operating under a differnt set of rules and then continues to bash the former President.

If he's doing that so frequently, how about you providing four or five literal quotes of Obama allegedly "bashing" the Bush administration unfairly?

It's your own challenge, now step up!


User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21528 posts, RR: 55
Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3183 times:



Quoting DXing (Reply 2):
Sure, it's easy for Europeans to agree with a person who bascally blames the United States for everything over the past 8 years and yet doesn't mention any faults he finds in European actions.

You must not have seen this passage:

"So we must be honest with ourselves. In recent years, we've allowed our alliance to drift. I know that there have been honest disagreements over policy, but we also know that there's something more that has crept into our relationship.

In America, there's a failure to appreciate Europe's leading role in the world. Instead of celebrating your dynamic union and seeking to partner with you to meet common challenges, there have been times where America has shown arrogance and been dismissive, even derisive.

But in Europe, there is an anti-Americanism that is at once casual but can also be insidious. Instead of recognizing the good that America so often does in the world, there have been times where Europeans choose to blame America for much of what's bad. [emphasis mine]

On both sides of the Atlantic, these attitudes have become all too common. They are not wise. They do not represent the truth. They threaten to widen the divide across the Atlantic and leave us both more isolated. They fail to acknowledge the fundamental truth that America cannot confront the challenges of this century alone, but that Europe cannot confront them without America.

So I've come to Europe this week to renew our partnership, one in which America listens and learns from our friends and allies, but where our friends and allies bear their share of the burden. Together, we must forge common solutions to our common problems.

So let me say this as clearly as I can: America is changing, but it cannot be America alone that changes. We are confronting the greatest economic crisis since World War II. The only way to confront this unprecedented crisis is through unprecedented coordination."


So yes, he did call Europe out on their going over the top with anti-Americanism. And rightly so.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3169 times:



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 9):
Is there an alternative Obama speech being aired on the right wing circuit?

As Klaus got in first, there must be. This thread is hilarious. One of the funniest yet.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 9):
And did not Mr. Sarkozy mention in his joint conference with Obama yesterday that he'd like to remind French citizens of the American blood spilled in France, just in case anyone is skeptical of providing additional help in Afghanistan? Again, just an oversight or a casual omission?

Now there IS a serious topic, what charmed Sarko down off his tree? A couple of days ago he was threatening to to attend.

On the subject of which, why did the Canadian PM go AWOL and then Berlusconi likewise from the photograph?. But Sarko was there.

There seems to be a contrast (so far) between the London conference of the 30s and this one. Wonder if that means that Obama rates ahead of FDR already.

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
So yes, he did call Europe out on their going over the top with anti-Americanism. And rightly so.

Funny, this was the speech that was reported here too. Perhaps bits were edited out in some places????

To the critics, you missed out on Michelle "handling" Her M.


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13517 posts, RR: 62
Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3121 times:
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Can we agree that perhaps it was in poor taste to give the Queen the equivalent of a mix tape, though?  Wink


"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3426 posts, RR: 17
Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3112 times:
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Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 13):
Can we agree that perhaps it was in poor taste to give the Queen the equivalent of a mix tape, though

The question is what can you give a Queen who have everything? The Ipod was a great idea.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineRacko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4856 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3074 times:



Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 13):
Can we agree that perhaps it was in poor taste to give the Queen the equivalent of a mix tape, though?

Can we also agree that nobody in charge gives a damn about the "gifts" they get just because protocol requires them?  Smile


User currently offline767Lover From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3038 times:



Quoting Klaus (Reply 1):
He (and his wife) really made you guys look good again! And believe me, it's a lot more fun to cheer for and with you than to complain and criticize!



Quoting Klaus (Reply 5):
President Obama does indeed make you look good again to the world. And whether you like it or not, you will still share the benefits of the improving american image in the world.

Honestly, I don't expect anything to change in terms of European criticism of Americans. (Note I said "Americans" vs. "America".) I fully expect that Obama will continue to be viewed favorably, but I'm afraid the disdain for the "ugly American" will persist.

While our nation has no shortage of small minded jerks (AS DOES EVERY COUNTRY), the broad brush that I have seen painted on these forums by EU members seems to be rooted in something deeper than who is occupying 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

Or am I just overly sensitive?


User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3031 times:



Quoting 767Lover (Reply 16):
While our nation has no shortage of small minded jerks (AS DOES EVERY COUNTRY), the broad brush that I have seen painted on these forums by EU members seems to be rooted in something deeper than who is occupying 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

Or am I just overly sensitive?

I'm not sure. I had a mixed welcome to Brussels recently. As long as you spoke french, they were very friendly, but once you broke that and spoke english, they seemed to get annoyed with you. The problem I noticed is really more with politics, not the people from my trips there, as long as you don't act like the stereotype, you aren't treated like one.

That being said, we also have perceptions of the "euro-trash" here in the US, but in all honesty, I think the welcome to the US is a little more warm from some people than from others.

But, each side has their assholes I suppose. It comes with the region, education, background, and a multitude of different things.

I think the association of Americans with Bush has been damaging and talk to anyone in Europe, and they all seem to really detest the man. It makes them get VERY hot under the collar once his name is mentioned....which I really tried not to do, but I think in Europe there is a HUGE appreciation still that we elected Obama, and many people In encountered varified this to me.

Though, I also think it has to do with Europeans following American politics vs. Americans following European. We still think of Europe as separate countries, and indeed it is, but they are continually progressing toward acting together, so Americans tend to ignore those politics, and honestly, they aren't really headlines here in the US. I guess blame it on the media, but we don't get the same news about the Europeans that the Europeans do about the US. Therefore, they have more to base and form their criticisms on than we can on them, just to lack of information.

UAL


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8023 posts, RR: 26
Reply 18, posted (5 years 3 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3031 times:



Quoting 767Lover (Reply 16):
Or am I just overly sensitive?

Perhaps so.

When I first moved overseas I was very sensitive to what seemed like built-in criticism of Americans here that came in various shapes and forms I didn't expect. What you learn after some time is that real experiences have shaped those opinions, akin to living with a person for a long time and uncovering their many annoying small faults and habits.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21415 posts, RR: 54
Reply 19, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2985 times:



Quoting 767Lover (Reply 16):
Honestly, I don't expect anything to change in terms of European criticism of Americans. (Note I said "Americans" vs. "America".) I fully expect that Obama will continue to be viewed favorably, but I'm afraid the disdain for the "ugly American" will persist.

There are some people who actually don't like the USA for a variety of reasons.

There are some people (probably a larger number) who like the USA as such, also for a variety of reasons.

And, of course, there are many people who are indifferent or neutral to the USA as a country.

The veritable firestorm of criticism and resentment during the past eight years, however, was a separate phenomenon. It consisted of a much broader coalition of people who reacted to the way the Bush administration has treated the rest of the world. And these people mostly separated their attitude towards the USA as a country from the resentment they had towards the Bush administration.

I am one of these people.

Many Bush supporters in the US always refused to believe that there was a separation between attitudes towards Bush and towards the USA, as much as people abroad attempted to explain it.

And right now we see the effect of the anti-Bush resentment dissolving and only the much smaller number of actual US-phobes remaining. This would not be happening if people had viewed Bush and the USA as an indivisible unit, but it obviously happens as we speak.

The only conclusion can be that it was in fact Bush and his administration who stirred up the massive wave of resentment around the planet and not some accidental anti-americanism.

Obama approaches the world in a completely different way — and the world responds in kind.

Yes, it does matter!

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 16):
While our nation has no shortage of small minded jerks (AS DOES EVERY COUNTRY), the broad brush that I have seen painted on these forums by EU members seems to be rooted in something deeper than who is occupying 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

Or am I just overly sensitive?

No, you are just wrong about this aspect, as you can easily observe. President Obama makes a huge difference for the rest of the world, and he hasn't come into office a minute too soon.


User currently offlineDXing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2897 times:



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 9):
Is there an alternative Obama speech being aired on the right wing circuit?

Nope, but then only the pandering parts are being played on the major media.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 10):
If he's doing that so frequently, how about you providing four or five literal quotes of Obama allegedly "bashing" the Bush administration unfairly?

It's your own challenge, now step up!

Sure, although "unfairly" is quantative depending on the particular persons viewpoint. The first two are direct assaults on President Bush's administration as a whole.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/wash...obama-in-strasbourg-town-hall.html


"We are ushering a new era of responsibility, and that is something we should all be proud of."

"We just emerged from an era marked by irresponsibility, and it would be easy to choose the path of selfishness or apathy,"


The second two are the usual assualts on the war on terror.


"But after the initial NATO engagement in Afghanistan, we got sidetracked by Iraq,


One last point I will make. In dealing with terrorism, we can't lose sight of our values and who we are. That's why I closed Guantanamo. That's why I made very clear that we will not engage in certain interrogation practices."


Engage in certain interrogation practices? Now that is a bald face lie since his own team did not rule out anything if the government felt it was necessary. Just that it would be reviewed prior to implementation. Now on to some other parts of the speech.

"So it can't just be a military strategy and we will be in partnership with Europe on the development side and on the diplomatic side. But there will be a military component to it, and Europe should not simply expect the United States to shoulder that burden alone. We should not because this is a joint problem and it requires joint effort. "

Sounds all well and good, shame the Europeans told him to shove it when it came to more combat troops. As usual the United States will shoulder the bulk of the fighting and the bulk of the cost.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...009apr05,0,2215744.story?track=rss

BTW, hey Falcon:

"It is a revolutionary world that we live in, and thus, it is young people who must take the lead."

"It is a revolutionary world that we live in, and history shows us that we can do improbable, sometimes impossible things."

Should we just charge him with treason now?  sarcastic 

Finally,

"The second way that we can turn challenge into opportunity is through our persistence in the face of difficulty. In an age of instant gratification, it's tempting to believe that every problem can and should be solved in the span of a week. When these problems aren't solved, we conclude that our efforts to solve them must have been in vain.

But that's not how progress is made. Progress is slow. It comes in fits and starts, because we try and we fail and then we try something else. And when there are setbacks and disappointments we keep going. We hold firm to our core values, and we hold firm to our faith in one another."


Shame he and some other democrats couldn't have applied the same philosophy to battle in Iraq. Instead the surge was a mistake, we were defeated, and that all the combat troops should have come home immediately 3 years ago. I guess bad mouthing the U.S. overseas becomes a way to get some instant gratification since this is his second time around at it.

Now Klaus, turn about is only fair play so here is a challange for you.

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
In America, there's a failure to appreciate Europe's leading role in the world.

What leading role?  scratchchin 

Also, can anyone name a President that has gone overseas and bad mouthed not only the previous administration or the country as a whole?


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8023 posts, RR: 26
Reply 21, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2888 times:



Quoting DXing (Reply 20):
Sure, although "unfairly" is quantative depending on the particular persons viewpoint.

Which is no different with your criticisms of Obama's comments on Gitmo and Iraq. What you call pandering is actually re-stating things that are accepted as facts by the VAST majority of the world. It would only be pandering if the truth were somehow warped in a way that the speaker doesn't actually believe to be true for the benefit of the audience. Success of the surge or not, Iraq was a stupid misdirection, and most, including our allies, see it that way. Tough kitties.

If you want to go after Team Obama for pandering, try their Israeli policy on for size. After the events of the last several months, there are legitimate questions being posed before the UN on discriminatory practices by Jerusalem, but his UN envoy, Susan Rice, is out there saying we're back to the UN rights council to fight "all that anti-Israel crap". Is that what she really believes?? This is the same Susan Rice who was once John Kerry's policy advisor and suggested appointing longtime Israel foes James Baker and Jimmy Carter as special envoys to force Jerusalem's hand. What gives??



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineDXing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2869 times:



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 21):
What you call pandering is actually re-stating things that are accepted as facts by the VAST majority of the world.

When they can vote for the President of the United States then their concerns will be valid ones. I may not agree with several European leaders views on things but those countries have the absolute right to choose who they wish to represent them.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 21):
It would only be pandering if the truth were somehow warped in a way that the speaker doesn't actually believe to be true for the benefit of the audience.

So tell me, where are the Gitmo detainees going after Gitmo closes? Will their confinement situation change appreciably? If not, if it is not called Gitmo does it make a difference?

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 21):
Success of the surge or not, Iraq was a stupid misdirection, and most, including our allies, see it that way. Tough kitties.

Then perhaps you can explain what no one else has been able to. Short of invading Pakistan, exactly what would all those extra boots on the ground in Afghanistan have accomplished other than to make it really look as if we were occupying the country to the residents there?

Partisan?

"So I've made a commitment to Afghanistan, and I've asked our NATO partners for more civilian and military support and assistance. We do this with a clear purpose: to root out the terrorists who threaten all of us, to train the Afghan people to sustain their own security and to help them advance their own opportunity, and to quicken the day when our troops come home.

We have no interest in occupying Afghanistan. "


So what is the difference between the Bush policy and the Obama policy? Because the way it is presented now when Bush wanted to do it it was bad, now that Obama wants to do it it's good.


What he totally missed saying, this time and last, is that the United States is a special nation. There are things that only we can do since we are the worlds pre-eminent superpower. As such people are going to throw rocks and your have to get used to that fact or cede you position. To blindly throw out the charges that we have been irresponsible or that we won't defend our security concerns with or without them is just pandering. To say that you're going to close Gitmo, when you know full well you're just shuffling the prisoners to a different location, to say you won't use certain interrogation techniques, when you know full well you have an executive order on the table that say "unless it is reviewed and deemed proper" then you are pandering to your audience plain and simple.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26854 posts, RR: 58
Reply 23, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2826 times:

Obama's visit to Europe has been 100% success. Previous US Presidents could only dream of the support and affection that was afforded to him and his wife.

He has left a feel good factor not seen in decades from a US President. He is being called the New JFK !!


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2815 times:



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 3):
No personalities are required to make us look good. And that is all they really offer at this point ... Some of us do not subscribe to the cult of personality ... we prefer reality.

Is "reality" to you a president who shoot from the hip? One who favors the rich over everyone else? One who started a war based on trumped up evidence? One that spent 7 years trying to scaring the American people into supporting him? One that hid everything about what he was doing behind an Iron wall of paranoia and secrecy?

That's the "reality" of what when on the last 8 years, AGM. If it's what you call "the good old days", then you can have them. I'll take this president, every single day over that.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 3):
I understand that it may also be simply a veiled final insult to our past administration.

ROTFL. The past administration doesn't need "veiled" insults, and the world won't veil it's loathing of the past 8 years under Mr. Bush. Neither will most Americans, who aren't blinded by ideological purity.

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 16):
Honestly, I don't expect anything to change in terms of European criticism of Americans. (Note I said "Americans" vs. "America".) I fully expect that Obama will continue to be viewed favorably, but I'm afraid the disdain for the "ugly American" will persist.

As personofied by the right-wing crybaby act we've been witnessed to since Obama was elected? As they should. Many Americans share that same disdain, 767Lover.


25 L410Turbolet : Isn't this sort of talk good for election-time "domestic consumption" only? Almost every nation has this sort of mythology which is part of national
26 Falcon84 : Unfortunately, some Americans feel they are more special than everyone on the planet-which is why they see nothing wrong with ordering the rest of th
27 Baroque : Well there must be some hope as the MD syndrome is at least getting some criticism. If Obama wished to see his stocks fall, he should follow the DX s
28 DXing : Ooohh boy, more style of substance, just what we need! It's not that Americans feel more of anything. Name another country that can project power the
29 Aaron747 : The Obama policy establishes winning over the people to get them to turn on the terrorists in their midst as the goal from the outset rather than lof
30 AGM100 : Bottom line it that nothing in my starter post was untrue . The US , EU and western Allies are in fact allies not only on the battlefield . We are joi
31 Mir : Their leading role in renewable energy and energy conservation, their leading role in establishing international cooperation and reaping the benefits
32 Post contains links DXing : By sending in another 17K troops? If the people of Iraq thought they were being occupied, what do you think the people of Afghanistan will think? And
33 Seb146 : How many times have we heard about detainees being treated well then turning around and telling their captors exactly what they wanted/needed to hear
34 DXing : Sooo...how many more combat troops did the EU nations committ to Afghanistan? As I said.... BTW, they don't seem to be to hospitible to his call for
35 Mir : Considering that the US percentage is 2.5, I would say so. Get into a dirty laundry contest if you wish, but remember that the US has no shortage of
36 Mt99 : 20% is a good theoretical limit. If you go over you start hitting all kinds of technical problems. I would say its about 1%
37 Post contains links DXing : But that is just the thing, it's not 20% today nor even close to that. 20% is the target and some nations won't even make that. http://www.teriin.org
38 Post contains links Aaron747 : Except that so long as Rumsfeld was running the show, input from commanders on the ground had to run through his filter of arrogance first. I think P
39 AGM100 : " I know there has been some difficulties in the past " - President Obama "apologizing to the Islamic world" I understand what he is trying to do ...
40 DXing : Agreed yet again, and again, and yet again, can you, or anyone, tell me how putting more boots on the ground in Afghanistan defeats an enemy that, si
41 Klaus : Are you kidding? These are extremely mild declarations of a change in policy without any attack on the previous administration, let alone an "unfair"
42 Mariner : I guess the Queen liked it, given her extraordinary - and quite unique - reaction to Mrs. Obama. mariner
43 Post contains links DXing : Are you? You asked for a certain number and type. There they are. Same as they were during the campaign. I asked for something and got a one liner fo
44 Klaus : You brought nothing that any reasonable person would qualify as "unfair bashing" under the circumstances as you had claimed. This desire for a world
45 Klaus : You have not addressed the point.
46 DXing : You asked for four-five quotes and I provided them. They are the same ones he was using during the campaign. They are unfair as the campaign is over
47 AGM100 : He is simply a master at weaving though the mine field . His economic speech given yesterday was frankly full of grandiose ideas. " This budget we jus
48 Mariner : If you're earning very good money, I don't understand what your objection is to paying a little more tax. mariner
49 Baroque : Pity there is not an afterlife or the recently late Mr Costigan could be having a chat with the Goanna (Packer K) over this very issue right now!
50 AGM100 : I have said before . Every year I have the debate with my controller and accountant. They want me to hide money or take deductions to lower my taxes.
51 Mariner : If I were your accountant, it would drive me crazy, too. The tax code recognizes that contributions are part of the machinery that makes America run.
52 AGM100 : That includes you and your children . so why do you want to change it ? There will be no tax cut for anyone .... I promise. There will be tax refund
53 Mariner : (a) I don't have children and (b) presently, many of the US rich pay less tax - as a percentage of income earned - than others. I don't see the probl
54 Klaus : Obama distanced himself from the policies of his predecessors in introducing his policy objectives. There simply was no "unfair bashing" in any of yo
55 Baroque : Anyone got a translation of this beyond I don't like paying tax?
56 DXing : By using the same bashing quotes he was using during the campaign. As I stated when I posted them. "Unfair" depends on the persons viewpoint. Former
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