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Pirates Seize US-flagged Ship & 20 Americans  
User currently offlineGarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5327 posts, RR: 53
Posted (5 years 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5584 times:

Somali pirates have hijacked the Maersk Alabama

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE53721Z20090408

NAIROBI (Reuters) - Somali pirates hijacked a U.S.-flagged, Danish-owned container ship on Wednesday with 20 American crew on board in a major escalation in attacks off the lawless Horn of Africa nation, officials said.

The 17,000 ton Maersk Alabama was seized off Mogadishu far out in the Indian Ocean, but all its crew were believed to be unharmed, Andrew Mwangura, coordinator of the Mombasa-based East African Seafarers' Assistance Program, told Reuters .

Denmark's A.P. Moller-Maersk confirmed the U.S.-flagged Maersk Alabama had been attacked by pirates about 500 km (300 miles) off Somalia and was presumed hijacked. The company said it had 20 American crew on board.


So the question is what to do in this major foreign policy/national security challenge for the Obama administration. Personally I almost have to think that some sort of military response (probably in the form of a SEAL team recapturing the ship) would have to come.


South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
164 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTravelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5567 times:



Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Thread starter):
So the question is what to do in this major foreign policy/national security challenge for the Obama administration. Personally I almost have to think that some sort of military response (probably in the form of a SEAL team recapturing the ship) would have to come.

That was my first thought -- the SEALS or other type of special forces. I can't imagine that there would be no military response to this. Hopefully by the time this is over the pirates will think twice about taking over a US flagged ship.


User currently offlineRacko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4856 posts, RR: 20
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5537 times:

They are already free. Seems like just the thought of the SEALs marching in ended it.

User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3816 posts, RR: 28
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5536 times:

Ask the French how it's done - pay them the ransom to get the crew out safely and don't give them a chance to enjoy the money.


Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineThomasphoto60 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3860 posts, RR: 23
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5522 times:



Quoting Racko (Reply 2):



Quoting Travelin man (Reply 1):
That was my first thought -- the SEALS or other type of special forces. I can't imagine that there would be no military response to this. Hopefully by the time this is over the pirates will think twice about taking over a US flagged ship.



Quoting Racko (Reply 2):
They are already free. Seems like just the thought of the SEALs marching in ended it.

No need for the Seals, the crew re-took the ship

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/04/08/ship.hijacked/index.html

Congrats to the crew of the Maersk Alabama  bigthumbsup 

Thomas



"Show me the Braniffs"
User currently offlineCURLYHEADBOY From Italy, joined Feb 2005, 940 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5502 times:



Quoting Thomasphoto60 (Reply 5):
No need for the Seals, the crew re-took the ship

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/04/08/ship.hijacked/index.html

Congrats to the crew of the Maersk Alabama

Thomas

Very glad for the good outcome!
Now, it would just be even better if they could keep a track on the pirates vessel and give out the coordinates so that the USN can have some fun with them bastards... Big grin



If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
User currently offlineTugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5253 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 week 6 days ago) and read 5424 times:



Quoting Thomasphoto60 (Reply 4):
No need for the Seals, the crew re-took the ship

Congrats to the crew! Brave of them to fight back. I'll be curious to hear the details of what happened. Looks like the Maritime Academy produces very competent and bad-ass crew!
Funny to think that the reason most shippers don't use USA crew is there cost but this one event likely saved several million dollars alone.

So does this make USA flagged ships less likely to be targeted by the pirates or does it make them more of a target? I think it makes them the ships to avoid.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineGarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5327 posts, RR: 53
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5406 times:

Not to be the wet blanket here...

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/04/08/ship.hijacked/index.html

It now looks like the pirates still hold the captain hostage, although the crew were planning on swapping the captured pirate for their captain, the deal failed and the pirates not only regained their captured comrade but also are keeping the Maersk Alabama's captain hostage.



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5402 times:

Crew has been live on CNN on the phone with reporter....but had to leave suddenly.

Crew is not free, the captain is hostage....war ship on it's way to the Maersk Ship.

We cannot dedicated huge amounts of warships to this area, therefore my suggestion for a short-term treatment:

Schedule ships to depart together, perhaps 15-20, with two warship escorts at a time, and have the country of ownership/interest pay for the escort, or the company, until something more permanent is done.

If you go out on your own outside of these scheduled departures, then you are on your own.

UAL


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5400 times:

I just hope every one of those pirates is sleeping with the fish soon. This is getting out of hand. We have to start letting these ships have guns to protect themselves.

User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5372 times:



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 9):
This is getting out of hand. We have to start letting these ships have guns to protect themselves.

And also shift our focus to the chaos that is Somalia and the continent of Africa....a continent that has been left unchecked by all major nations. Bar a few of them.

UAL


User currently offlineMarSciGuy From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 549 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5327 times:



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 9):
This is getting out of hand. We have to start letting these ships have guns to protect themselves.

International Law prevents this I believe, merchant ships are unarmed as a rule, warships are not...I do not have any legal references near me so I cannpt confirm this but having gone to a Maritime Academy (in a non-license track though) I am fairly certain of it.



"There weren't a ton of gnats there where a ton of gnats and their families as well!"
User currently offlineGarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5327 posts, RR: 53
Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5243 times:

A little off topic but interesting is this entry from the US Naval Institute's blog.

http://blog.usni.org/?p=906

The article corroborates what MarSciGuy said and I was thinking - merchant ships are unarmed as a rule of int'l law and even during the World Wars, arming merchant ships to help stave off the U-Boat threat wasn't a decision taken lightly.

Also the latest news is that the USS Bainbridge (DDG-96) has arrived to provide assistance. Somewhat ironic, given Commodore Bainbridge's role in the First Barbary War.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/04/08/ship.hijacked/index.html



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlineMarSciGuy From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 549 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5233 times:



Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 12):
A little off topic but interesting is this entry from the US Naval Institute's blog.

http://blog.usni.org/?p=906

The article corroborates what MarSciGuy said and I was thinking - merchant ships are unarmed as a rule of int'l law and even during the World Wars, arming merchant ships to help stave off the U-Boat threat wasn't a decision taken lightly.

Thanks for doing the legwork for me  Wink



"There weren't a ton of gnats there where a ton of gnats and their families as well!"
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15481 posts, RR: 26
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5208 times:



Quoting UAL747 (Reply 8):
Schedule ships to depart together, perhaps 15-20, with two warship escorts at a time, and have the country of ownership/interest pay for the escort, or the company, until something more permanent is done.

The convoy idea is good, and it has worked before. The USN might have to run this like the tanker war. I would also guess that using hunter-killer teams of P-3s and A-10s would help keep the pirates at bay.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDoona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3760 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5169 times:



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 14):
I would also guess that using hunter-killer teams of P-3s and A-10s would help keep the pirates at bay.

Identifying the pirate vessels might be difficult from the air while on patrol. It's not like they're sailing around in 32-gun frigates flying the Jolly Roger. (Though, I must say, if they did, they'd have my respect  silly  Wink

On the other hand, if there are aircraft on standby to respond to alerts from merchant vessels, it might work.

Isn't there some sort of multi-national anti-pirate task force down there?

Cheers
Mats



Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
User currently offlineGarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5327 posts, RR: 53
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5163 times:



Quoting Doona (Reply 15):

Isn't there some sort of multi-national anti-pirate task force down there?

There is, but the problem is, of course, they can't be everywhere at once, and the pirates seemed to have shifted their hunting grounds now that the waters closer to the Seychelles have calmed down and become fair enough for them to conduct operations.



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5155 times:



Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 12):
Also the latest news is that the USS Bainbridge (DDG-96) has arrived to provide assistance.

Interesting. I landed on that ship not too long ago! Really great crew.


User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5154 times:



Quoting Doona (Reply 15):
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 14):
I would also guess that using hunter-killer teams of P-3s and A-10s would help keep the pirates at bay.

Identifying the pirate vessels might be difficult from the air while on patrol. It's not like they're sailing around in 32-gun frigates flying the Jolly Roger. (Though, I must say, if they did, they'd have my respect

On the other hand, if there are aircraft on standby to respond to alerts from merchant vessels, it might work.

Isn't there some sort of multi-national anti-pirate task force down there?

Cheers
Mats

Yes, but the area is huge, Norway is sending in another ship, Sweden already got ships among a loads of other countries.


User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 11929 posts, RR: 25
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5146 times:



Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 12):
Also the latest news is that the USS Bainbridge (DDG-96) has arrived to provide assistance.

Provide assistance, indeed.



Armament:
• 90 cells Mk 41 vertical launch systems
BGM-109 Tomahawk
• RGM-84 Harpoon SSM (not in Flight IIa units)
SM-2 Standard SAM (has an ASuW mode)
SM-3 Standard Ballistic missile defense missile for AEGIS BMD (DDG 61, DDG 55 and expanding)
• RIM-162 ESSM SAM (DDG-79 onward)
• RUM-139 Vertical Launch ASROC
• one 5 inch (127 mm/54) Mk-45 (lightweight gun) (DDG-51 through -80)
• one 5 inch (127 mm/62) Mk-45 mod 4 (lightweight gun) (DDG-81 on)
• two 20 mm Phalanx CIWS (DDG-51 through -83, several later units)


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Seahawk.750pix.jpg

Armament
* Up to three Mark 46 torpedo or Mark 50 torpedo,
* AGM-114 Hellfire missile, 4 Hellfire missiles for SH-60B and HH-60H, 8 Hellfire missiles for MH-60S Block III.
* AGM-119 Penguin missile (being phased out),
* M60 machine gun or, M240 machine gun or GAU-16/A machine gun or GAU-17/A Minigun
* Rapid Airborne Mine Clearance System (RAMICS) using Mk 44 Mod 0 30mm Cannon

Source: Wikipedia



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 3007 posts, RR: 48
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5135 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR



Quoting MarSciGuy (Reply 11):
International Law prevents this I believe, merchant ships are unarmed as a rule, warships are no

OK, just an idea: pirates don't abide by International Law either. So, what prevents merchant ships to be armed? Can't they just do it and defend themselves? Sure, it might be illegal, but nobody cares in international waters apparently.

Why wouldn't this work?



Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
User currently offlineVC10 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 1397 posts, RR: 16
Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5117 times:

So I understand it this is a Danish ship flying the USA flag with 20 crew members, all American .

This sounds very strange to me as most ship's crew today are from the third world, so was this crew on a training detail, or was this a honey trap for the pirates.

Just a thought

littlevc10


User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 6729 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5108 times:



Quoting VC10 (Reply 21):
This sounds very strange to me as most ship's crew today are from the third world, so was this crew on a training detail, or was this a honey trap for the pirates.

Ship is usually charted by the US military, possible sensitive cargo last run? This run is not under military contract, so possibly the crew never left in anticipation of additional contracts?

Just another thought


User currently offlineTugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5253 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5093 times:



Quoting Revelation (Reply 19):
USS Bainbridge (DDG-96) has arrived to provide assistance.

Provide assistance, indeed.

You forgot the all important stat of speed! For the Bainbridge, the best max speed I find is 35 kts which is decent. Of course I always wonder what the "full military speed" is.


Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13800 posts, RR: 63
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5086 times:

And the German navy now got problems what to with two batches of captured pirates.
The first batch were shipped to Kenia (imprisoned in air conditioned cells onboard, with three square halal meals cooked by the frigate's crew for the prisoners every day). The other batch are on the way there.
Two German star lawyers went to Kenia on their own expenses to defend the pirates (who claim to be human trafficers smuggling people to Yemen, so whydid theycarry a whole load of weaponry and were seen right in the vicinity of a ship, which had called a Mayday for a pirate attack?), claiming thatthe German military has no right to operate in these waters, also that the piratesshould have been brought to Germany for trial (sure, and then apply for political asylum for themselves and their extended families  Yeah sure ). Membersof the communists and the Greens are there to watch the trial as well. Also, there were complaints that Kenian jails are not fit for prisoners (I wonder if the Somali ones are in anyway better?).
It didn't help that the commander of the frigate, who is not a trained cop, dumped the pirate's weapons overboard after recording them. Now the lawyers claim that the weapons never existed.
Theyshould have posted a few members of the federal police on each ship, just to make sure that all evidence is secured in a court-proof way.

Jan


25 Fr8Mech : The problem is, that the pirates have several other Or maybe the pirates should have been handled the way they were in previous centuries...
26 MarSciGuy : You remember how the cowboy diplomacy worked under GW, don't you?.....Whichever country armed their merchantmen would have their merchantmen treated
27 VC10 : Thanks for the reminder as I had forgotten Mr Jones and his act, so I had to look it up and actually under the Act 75% of the crew have to be America
28 Revelation : It looks like USS Bainbridge has some pretty ample yardarms to hang them from. Military justice on the high seas - bring it on!
29 Post contains images AGM100 : Seems simple enough to me .... picture says it all. May not be US marines but some security on board with a like minded weapon would help.
30 MarSciGuy : The only problem with that is that there are 5 people aboard the lifeboat - the Captain and 4 pirates - in a 28 foot lifeboat. The odds of even a cra
31 BMI727 : Actually the more I think about it, the AC-130 makes more sense. The long loiter time could come in handy. Just keep a P-3 and and AC-130 on station
32 PPVRA : A few years ago I heard of companies that ferry pleasure boats between ports for clients. I'm not talking about that huge ship that carries several bo
33 AGM100 : Its true , But my solution is more suited for events prior to the pirates attacking. Every US flagged cargo vessel should have a armed security perso
34 MarSciGuy : I can tell you from personal experience, not as a merchant mariner but as a scientist who goes to sea for about 2/3 the average amount of time a lice
35 MarSciGuy : high pressure firehoses are the "accepted" means of deterrent - and apparently it worked in the case of the ALABAMA the first time, then the pirates
36 BMI727 : Just bring back the PT Boats. That ought to do the trick.
37 AGM100 : I will take a RPG against your hose any day man ... I like it ... but remember the pirates have some standoff capability . A small boat armed with 12
38 MCOflyer : I agree that an advance craft capable of carrying out such patrols for escorting ships ought to be brought in to service. KH
39 MarSciGuy : Err, I was not meaning this from a US-centric pperspective but from a global perspective, yes people need to buy things in order for there to be dema
40 Post contains links StasisLAX : From today's NYT: "Maersk’s senior director for security, Finn Brodersen, said in an interview with the International Herald Tribune last month tha
41 Pyrex : Most of that crap is absolutely useless when you're dealing with pirates.
42 Chi-town : US Navy to the rescue! Kick some ass!
43 MarSciGuy : Ah, touche ....well there's got to be a non-lethal and internationally acceptable way to deal with them that is practical... I'd suggest that you are
44 Pilotsmoe : I say just push them overboard. People from that part of the world can't typically swim
45 Revelation : Ah, I suppose you're right. All those pesky international laws and rules of engagement. It seems to be a great business opportunity for Blackwater. T
46 MarSciGuy : Xe would probably end up shooting and killing innocent fishermen that came slightly too close to passing merchantmen...
47 UAL747 : I hope that doesn't mean what it sounded like.... UAL
48 UH60FtRucker : Oh calm down. There's nothing racist, or politically incorrect with what he said. He's absolutely right... swimming is not a common skill in both the
49 Revelation : Hopefully not. We're talking about modern merchantman traveling at reasonably high speed in the open seas. Can't see why any fisherman would want to
50 BMI727 : This does sound like a job for Blackwater. Besides, who decided that shooting first and asking questions later is a bad thing when it comes to priate
51 Post contains links Slider : Some good articles, commentary and all have some VERY good history on piracy, how it was dealt with historically, and why it's important to deal with
52 Post contains images PPVRA : Yup, all of what you said is right    I wouldn't go as far as shooting first and asking questions later, but you do have something in your constitu
53 MarSciGuy : Hasn't been used to my knowledge in close to 200 years, but it could be the answer or a start to an answer...
54 Post contains links MarSciGuy : Apparently at least one of those 4 can... http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/af.../04/10/somalia.u.s.ship/index.html
55 Post contains links Revelation : Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_Marque#United_States Thanks for the info - I didn't realize this existed. Interestingly enough, Seems thi
56 Post contains links MarSciGuy : In other piracy news... http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/af...ca/04/10/somalia.france/index.html I hadn't even heard of this hijacking, which just go
57 Post contains images AGM100 : Our thoughts and prayers should be with our Navy / Marine personal on the scene. It is a dangerous situation , we are proud of all of them . Love the
58 HAWK21M : Call in the Indian Navy...They'll show how to deal with these pirates. regds MEL
59 Bwest : Didn't they manage to blow up a fishing boat filled with Thais, which they mistook for a pirate vessel? It's worth looking into what exactly caused t
60 LTBEWR : Problem is now it isn't just ex-fishermen involved, but many others desprite for income in a place with no governance or enough legitment income sour
61 Revelation : That'd be fine in an ideal world, but in the real world, the US has tried the "nation building" approach for decades now, and it just doesn't work. Y
62 MD11Engineer : You forgot one thing: Once the Somali war lords (read organised crime) with their private armies noticed how much money was made by robbing ships, th
63 Post contains links AGC525 : Now an American-owned tugboat with an Italian crew has been hijacked http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,514461,00.html
64 Post contains links Garnetpalmetto : Looks like an American-owned tugboat (albeit Italian-flagged) has also been hijacked. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090411/ap_on_re_af/piracy Also, the
65 Post contains links Revelation : Yes: Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LHD-4 Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasp_class_amphibious_assault_ship Looks like USS Boxer should have no
66 HAWK21M : There were pirates on that ship that fired at the Indian Navy...... The food keeps their spirits up I guess The only way to clear this pirate mess is
67 NorthstarBoy : Allow me to depart from my normal, warm fuzzy liberal self a moment. The way i see it, the current SOP when it comes to dealing with piracy is the who
68 BMI727 : That may be a bit excessive. I would use P-3s and AC-130s in hunter-killer teams to stop the pirates. That combination could sink anything up to dest
69 Alessandro : Mogadishu isn´t involved in this at all the government controlls only part of the capital none of the areas up north where the pirates origin from a
70 StealthZ : The resources sent by the USN might send a message some companies, especially those that take advantage of flags of convenience. When your "convenienc
71 Post contains images UH60FtRucker : When I flew out to the USS Bainbridge, it did not have any organic air assets on board. I'm pretty sure they still don't. Although obviously the USS
72 Par13del : If the current reports are accurate, the drifting life boat with the Captain and pirates onboard is within 40miles of the coast, my opinion, that life
73 MarSciGuy : It's a covered lifeboat, which would make this type of operation much more diecy for everyone involved.
74 Us330 : As others have commented, this is a ship-by-ship decision, usually made by the ship's owners for insurance or cargo security purposes. the strangest
75 Revelation : Interesting, The wiki page implied that all Arleigh Burke guided missile destroyers from DDG-79 onward would have two SH-60s on board. Of course, you
76 Post contains links STT757 : It's over, three Somali pirates dead and one in custody. Captain freed and unharmed; http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30178013/ Don't mess with Navy SEALS.
77 NIKV69 : The best possible outcome! Glad some of those pirates bought it. I would have liked to see them all blown right out of the water. Now lets hope someon
78 Par13del : Good to know the hostage is safe, unfortunately all the pirates were not taken alive to stand trial. Big question is where do we go from here, obvious
79 National757 : IMO that's a really good idea. Why hasn't there been any serious consideration to having commercial ships travel in convoys with military escort to t
80 Alessandro : Not over, more ships await to be hijacked.
81 Alessandro : Indians been doing that, now there´s navies from around 14 nations active in the fight against the pirates, big task on hand.
82 Alessandro : The key in such operation is the Ethiopians, they´re the regional powerhouse and can do such operation.
83 BMIFlyer : Excellent news, well done to the USN Lee
84 Par13del : Presently the navies that are in the area are being financied by tax payors, the insurers and owners are not being held to account from a financial o
85 Usnseallt82 : Nuff said. Then a few more of those bastards will share the same fate.
86 StealthZ : The 2 Barbary wars were largely American affairs although an Anglo-Dutch fleet joined in the second Barbary war of 1815. Curiously and as mentioned e
87 NIKV69 : Only alternative is to arm these ships or give them armed security forces onboard or we will just go around in circles here.
88 CURLYHEADBOY : I'm surprised of how naive those pirates were that they thought a single hostage could be enought to keep the USN into a lenghty standoff. Had they k
89 LTBEWR : I hope the still alive terrorist-pirate is properly and throughly interrogated by professionals (no 'waterboarding') to get the info needed like who h
90 Par13del : Define proper, hope you do not include sleep deprivation. Only intel of any value would be the names of the mother ships which go offshore to launch
91 Blrsea : The pirates got what they deserved. Quite a clean operation by USN seals, I must say, to pick off three pirates near dusk! Hope the pirates don't star
92 Baroque : Quite. Stand by for the next type of escalation. Not paying ransoms would be a good idea. Odd how difficult it is to get the convoy concept system ad
93 Tugger : What I find quite amazing is three head-shots, near simultaneously, at sea between two ships moving independently on the swells. I assume the seas we
94 Baroque : In the case of WWI and WWII, it was not those running the companies that risked swallowing a torpedo and in this case not those risking having a vaca
95 MarSciGuy : The seas were not flat from what I read, and yes, it's incredible that it was pulled off successfully! I was against this earlier in the thread think
96 NIKV69 : I knew the waterboarding thing would enter here at some point. Actually we pretty much know all we need too about these pirates so a lengthy sit down
97 Par13del : What is strange is that a couple days before, the French rescued some of their citizens with fatalities on both side, there was no outrage by the pir
98 Revelation : Yes, but now it seems shipping companies are happier to just go around the horn of Africa instead of using the Gulf of Aden and the Suez Canal. Seems
99 StealthZ : Perhaps you mean they are using the Cape of Good Hope route around the tip of South Africa. The Horn of Africa is precisely the area currently afflic
100 LMP737 : Like most criminal enterprises the ones doing the actual dirty work are not the ones you want nor can they give that much valuable info. Since this p
101 Tugger : The shipping in wartime was essentially controlled by the nations involved. It was "war supplies" that were being put in convoys. Today you have free
102 Baroque : From memory less than 2% of ships crossing the Atlantic in WWII were sunk too. Anyone know what has happened to insurance rates? In any case, it is n
103 Revelation : Oops, you are correct. I'm doing my tax returns so my brain is pretty frazzled right now
104 MD11Engineer : Actually the shipping companies and the ship's masters hated the convoy system during WW2. The owners of fast ships hated that they had to wait and s
105 Post contains links and images Tugger : I think it reached something like 15% at one point (like 1942), I think the overall for WW2 was 2%. The key thing is the ships were being sunk. If th
106 AGM100 : Good action by the USN , The Captain is nails !... congratulations to all involved, nice work. Are they (the administration) actually talking about ac
107 Post contains links Tugger : Interesting article on the "business" aspect of piracy, more accurately how piracy is affecting the shipping business: http://www.guardian.co.uk/busin
108 Keesje : The Global War on Piracy This is so much better then the previous ones. The bad guys are outnumbered, outgunned and most importantly they cannot be i
109 Baroque : Much better indeed. Indeed they did. But look at the stats that are coming. Unhappily I don't have those for ships sailing singly, but the U-boat cap
110 MD11Engineer : The Murmansk (and up to 1943, the Malta) convoys were exceptions. Out of necessity they had to sail for a large part in regions, where the Germans ha
111 Par13del : Makes you wonder who is behind all these govts. sending their naval assests into the region to aid shippers / insurers who do not want their help and
112 Revelation : Indeed. When I think about it, it seems shippers want capitalism, so they should get it. Shippers are willing to pay insurance, so they should be wil
113 Prebennorholm : This pirate problem should have been solved years ago. One problem is that it is mostly a European/Asian problem - the US doesn't need that water very
114 Par13del : Agree that is not really a US problem. Based on your first comment, why would the US send one of its carriers or AWACS planes to the area, Clinton wh
115 Baroque : Stop press. After PQ 17 and PQ18 at FDRs instigation, they sent in late 1942, 13 fast unescorted merchant ships to Murmansk. 5 arrived, 3 aborted, 4
116 MD11Engineer : Whoa here ! Hold the horses! I said "Could theoretically outrun a U-BOAT", I didn't mention anything about outrunning a Stuka or Ju-88 squadron. The
117 Post contains links Garnetpalmetto : Looks like another US-flagged ship was attacked and damaged but pirates were unable to board her. http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE53E2E1
118 Post contains links BMIFlyer : Some good news, a French Navy Warship just launched an assault on a Pirate "Mother Ship" 550 miles off the Kenyan coast, and captured 11 pirates http:
119 Baroque : Hope you did not think Clay Blair left us wondering on that issue. Two sunk by U-boats alone, two by planes assisted by U-boats and the beached one p
120 Garnetpalmetto : Vive la France and hats off to the crew of the FS Nivose! Hopefully the US will follow suit and give no quarter to piracy.
121 Prebennorholm : I see you point, and I can't answer your question. I was just expressing a personal hope because I don't see any other country on this planet which h
122 Par13del : Remember, the second happy times off the US seaboard was in large part due to some naval authorities on the US side who had a thing against the Brits
123 MD11Engineer : France for instance. But the presence of the USS Boxer could mean that an attack on some land base is in the bushes. The same applies to the German N
124 Lumberton : FWIW, my personal opinion only, which I stated on another pirate thread. Absent an international accord, the U.S. should protect our citizens and vess
125 BMI727 : Or protect all ships under the assumption that they are protecting America's free trade and use the Tanker War as a precedent. The P-3 or even JSTARS
126 MD11Engineer : Don't forget that there is also a lot of legitimate small boat traffic going on off the East African coast, ranging from fishing dhows to coastal frei
127 Par13del : I admit to not knowing much of anything about German law only small snippets, but this one is new for me. If I understand correctly, if the pirates a
128 Pyrex : I don't know much about ships - are they usually equipped with transponders like commercial aircraft? Would it be possible to set up an exclusion are
129 Garnetpalmetto : They are, but not in fleet service. The last fleet squadron, VS-22 decommissioned on January 29, 2009. The remaining 4 airframes are assigned to patr
130 Prebennorholm : Yes, those lawyers went on own expenses. (And they went home on...) Makes it look like they are philanthropists and human rights activists. A more li
131 Prebennorholm : Hi Pyrex, probably many good ideas there. Exactly what hardware is best and what strategy is best will in the end be up to the military commanders. B
132 Prebennorholm : Dear Lumberton, I assume that "We" means "the US of A". Yes, you have the resouces. But you don't use them. That fact that the US has no captured shi
133 Lumberton : Prebennorholm, yes, I know there is a difference. Most Americans do as well. The question is, does the international community? As I noted in my earl
134 Par13del : Shocking advise to an American, they must be thinking of Iraq One thing we know of the Americans is that unlike others who have had their ships captu
135 Post contains links Lumberton : Hillary speaks...and she has a plan. I'm happy to note it doesn't smack of unilateralism. http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/15/clinton.piracy/ Hopef
136 Prebennorholm : I think that I know exactly how you feel, dear Lumberton. The international community...? I can speak for Denmark, maybe western Europe since there s
137 Baroque : The Second Happy Times probably lasted a shorter time than the WWI barney as the pro convoy lobby just had to point to the stats. And I did not want
138 MD11Engineer : Very simple. Based on the WW2 experiences, we have an article in our constitution, which guarantees everybody who utters the words "political asylum"
139 Lumberton : A convoy would work, but how would you organize it? What legal framework? From whence the authority of the convoy commander? If the insurance compani
140 BMI727 : Exactly. I am pleased that Obama would authorize the use of force, but the piracy has gotten out of hand and it is time for the US and others to make
141 Lumberton : So what do you do when....
142 BMI727 : Easy, keep an eye on them and send Marines/SEALS from nearby ships to board them and take the ship.
143 Par13del : UN has plenty of teeth, especially when biting the side they favour. If the US does unilateral action which the UN does not like, they will complain
144 BMI727 : Absolutely not. There is no UN Army. They SUGGEST actions to be taken by countries, but there is no recourse one nation disagrees and chooses not to
145 Garnetpalmetto : I'd suggest you learn how the UN operates. It's true that MOST bodies of the UN can only 'suggest' a course of action, however the UN Security Counci
146 Par13del : The US were able to get a resolution passed which allowed "hot pursuit" into Somalia territorial waters, so I say lets use the UN for what they can d
147 Baroque : There is probably not a great deal that the UNSC cannot at least TRY to do if the members of the UNSC want to do them. Accidental truism nearly sneak
148 BMI727 : They can authorize action, but actually sending troops or using force is completely in the hands of each country. I know that, and if any of those co
149 Post contains links Tugger : Hey Baroque, they are talking about convoys! Looks like there is already some limited ones: http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D97K80EO0.htm
150 Baroque : Yes I saw a similar reference. Not a surprise, in the case of convoying to reduce the potency of the U-boat attacks, the opposition was close to unbe
151 StasisLAX : NIce touch on Maersk's part to fly Captain Phillips home to Vermont on a company bizjet (OY-MMM).
152 JoeCanuck : There needs to be an international security force which boards the ships before they get into suspect waters and gets off in Suez, for example. A half
153 Tugger : Decent idea except the logistics are a bit impossible. Based on 20,000 ships a year, that means 55 ships a day through the area, which means you woul
154 Baroque : I will bet you are not wrong on that interesting scenario. It would be interesting to do a costing for provision of security. Next move would be for
155 57AZ : Actually, there were provisions made in WWII for certain high speed ships to sail solo. Transports such as the Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth were sch
156 JoeCanuck : I don't think it would be an easy thing to set up but I don't think it's impossible, either. It certainly will be expensive. The costs would be sprea
157 Post contains links BMIFlyer : Dutch Commando's kicked some ass earlier http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8005730.stm Well done Lee
158 Post contains links BMIFlyer : The pirate captured by the US Navy last week will be tried in a U.S Court..... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8003936.stm Mods, an idea - w
159 Tugger : Sadly, here is the stupid part: Sad. I don't know how it will turn out (and yes, it become quite a circus and be expensive) but at least the USA will
160 Post contains links VonRichtofen : Looks like a Canadian Navy ship (HMCS Winnipeg) owned some Somali pirates that were going after a Norwegian vessel. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGW
161 Slider : " target=_blank>http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/...racy/ Um, let me ask the obvious… How do you freeze the assets of Somali pirates who don’t
162 Post contains links Lumberton : That's a rhetorical question I hope? Frankly, I have no to what assets she's referring to; she has a plan. Who knows if it will work, or is even prac
163 BMI727 : That ransom money has to go somewhere. Plus there are other things to cut off, like their supply of weapons or fuel. That will work too. It will take
164 Post contains links Lumberton : The Italians seem to have figured it out. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,517955,00.html
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