Texan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4204 posts, RR: 53 Posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1694 times:
Just over the wires at CNN and NYTimes, Arlen Spector is going to change parties and become a Democrat, meaning the Dems will have a filibuster proof majority once Franken is sworn in (if I remember correctly).
Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
Klaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 20860 posts, RR: 55 Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1661 times:
Quoting N328KF (Reply 1): He's a RINO who was about to lose the Pennsylvania GOP primary. This is why he switched, and not through any ideological motivation.
The question is how much programmatic substance the current Republican Party has really left beyond stomping their feet and yelling NO! at every possible opportunity. Is there really any actual constructive life with a perspective for the future left in it or is it little more than an ossified remnant of bygone ideological battles running on fumes (and delusions) with its future already behind it...?
RedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4181 posts, RR: 30 Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1656 times:
Quoting Klaus (Reply 2): Is there really any actual constructive life with a perspective for the future left in it or is it little more than an ossified remnant of bygone ideological battles running on fumes (and delusions) with its future already behind it...?
There was a time just a few short years ago the same could have been said about the Democratic party. And we can see how "dead" they turned out to be.
The problem with predicting the demise of a political party is that the party in power, especially when they have such a large majority, will ALWAYS (without exception - history has never proven this wrong) stumble as a result of greed and hubris creeping into the ranks over time. And when that happens, the party out of power will suddenly find itself regaining strength and favor with the public.
Quoting N328KF (Reply 1): He's a RINO who was about to lose the Pennsylvania GOP primary. This is why he switched, and not through any ideological motivation.
And that is a perfect example of what power does to a person. They give up on their ideology and core beliefs and will do whatever it takes to retain their power.
While I'm personally not surprised by him doing this, I'm somewhat disappointed. I was hoping for a GOP Primary slugfest.
One needs to keep in mind, that there is STILL a Democratic Primary contest that Specter needs to face and it's still very early in the game. To my knowledge, one-time head of the National Constitution Center, Joe Torcella's the only Dem to announce that he's running. IMHO, there could still be a primary bloodpath next year, only this time it will be on the Democrat side.
The Democrats would prefer to have someone who's been in their party longer occupying the seat rather than someone who just jumped ship; what's not to say that Specter may not jump back again.
From the above web-link: With Specter's party switch, and the pending certification of Al Franken as the new Senator from Minnesota, the Democrats would have a filibuster-proof 61-seat majority in the US Senate.
Upshoot: Specter pulled a Jim Jefford's but only more-so.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 3): They give up on their ideology and core beliefs and will do whatever it takes to retain their power.
OR, maybe he realizes that the GOP no longer adheres to his ideology. It has been coopted by factions that are in great conflict with his leanings, and that has been the case for some time now.
Klaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 20860 posts, RR: 55 Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1634 times:
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 3): There was a time just a few short years ago the same could have been said about the Democratic party. And we can see how "dead" they turned out to be.
Of course. I wasn't trying to predict the GOP's imminent death or anything like that (in a two-party majority system their existence is pretty much guaranteed), just their total lack of imagination or political constructivity at this point. If you want to retain your members or functionaries, you should try to not let it come to this.
Apart from selfish motives which he most probably has as well, I could well imagine that he might be thoroughly fed up with unconditional blockade as the only reaction to a change in government in a severe crisis. At some point you cannot keep talking about patriotism without pause and at the same time try to derail any attempts to do something about the crisis your country is in. Beyond a certain point the two cannot be reconciled any more.
RedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4181 posts, RR: 30 Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1630 times:
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 4): The Democrats would prefer to have someone who's been in their party longer occupying the seat rather than someone who just jumped ship;
I think the Dems will be happy to have him and the party powers will support him in the primary, if for no other reason than to ensure they get their filibuster-proof majority.
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 4): what's not to say that Specter may not jump back again.
Who's to say the Republicans will take him back? I'm sure they would, though, if it will suit their political agenda at the time.
MBMBOS From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2561 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1620 times:
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 3): They give up on their ideology and core beliefs and will do whatever it takes to retain their power.
I don't think you can say that about Arlen Specter. He's always been true to his ideology and core beliefs and I expect him to continue to do so.
He clearly wants to run for another term and is switching parties so that he can. It's not as if the Republican Party has demonstrated loyalty to him so I'm not sure he owes them anything.
PHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7253 posts, RR: 25 Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1615 times:
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 7): I think the Dems will be happy to have him and the party powers will support him in the primary, if for no other reason than to ensure they get their filibuster-proof majority.
With Specter's switch taking place NOW, the filibuster-proof majority (pending Franken's certification) will already EXIST a year before the primary.
Maintaining it beyond 2010 will be subject to other Senate contests as well as Pennsylvania.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19717 posts, RR: 56 Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1616 times:
Quoting Texan (Thread starter): meaning the Dems will have a filibuster proof majority once Franken is sworn in
Spector is more liberal than the average Republican, but he's still conservative, and I wouldn't expect him to be a rubber stamp for whatever the Democrats want to push through. The filibuster will still be around, though it might get used a bit less.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
Texan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4204 posts, RR: 53 Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1615 times:
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 4): You beat me to the punch posting-wise on this one. BTW it's Arlen Specter NOT Spector (as in Phil Spector).
In my haste to celebrate, and while talking on the phone with a colleague whose last name is Spector, I transcribed my colleague's last name instead of the Senator's. My heartfelt apologies
As for his political ideologies, he has always been a centrist and a former member of the Democratic Party (back with Kennedy nearly 50 years ago). Republicans calling for his head over this would be, in my opinion, as crazy as Democrats calling for Phil Gramm's and Ben Nighthorse Campbell's heads back when they switched parties.
And, to agree with Senator Specter, the entire political landscape of this country has shifted far to the right. To use Molly Ivins's quote about Bill Clinton here, "[N]o one but a fool or a Republican ever took him for a liberal." Member of today's Democratic Party, yes. But today's Democrats are much more similar to Nixon and Eisenhower era Republicans than to liberals.
Texan
[Edited 2009-04-28 10:20:45]
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
RedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4181 posts, RR: 30 Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1602 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 5): OR, maybe he realizes that the GOP no longer adheres to his ideology.
That is very possible. However, he's a professional politician having been involved in politics since the 1960's, and a U.S. Senator for almost 30 years. My bet is that he gave up on his idealogical principles long ago and this is just a move to preserve himself, political party be damned.
By the way, I read up on him as soon as I saw the news break. It appears he was originally a Democrat before running for public office. Apparently, he has no problems changing stripes to suit his needs.
Quoting Klaus (Reply 6): just their total lack of imagination or political constructivity at this point.
The reason they lack imagination and ability to engage in constructive dialogue is because they are desperate and have been marginalized by the Democrats. It takes real courage and leadership to engage in constructive dialogue, rather than in destructive politics, and that only goes to show that the Republicans are in fact wanting for a real leader.
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10561 posts, RR: 53 Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1595 times:
Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 8): It's not as if the Republican Party has demonstrated loyalty to him so I'm not sure he owes them anything.
This is the correct quote of the week.
Quoting Texan (Reply 11): But today's Democrats are much more similar to Nixon and Eisenhower era Republicans than to liberals.
You guys are on a roll. Another very astute observation.
Look, the sheeple remaining in the republican party have become little more than empty words in the last 8 to 10 years: liberal = bad, tax and spend liberal, liberal elitist, leftist, socialist, communist, etc., and recently "not pro-American." Any word to make a democrat look bad. If the republican party thought as much about how to solve the country's problems as they did about what words demonize the democrats the most, it wouldn't be a dying party.
AGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 17 Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1595 times:
Good , better to have him actually in uniform for the team he is playing for. Better than suiting up for your team and playing the game for the other team.
Now we just need to replace about 30 other republicans and we will be much better off.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
Texan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4204 posts, RR: 53 Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1572 times:
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 14): Pat, I have to respectfully disagree with you. Most of (certainly not all) of today's Democrats are left of Truman and JFK.
We'll just have to agree to disagree, then While there are a couple of actual liberals in Congress now, the majority are much further to the right than the party of decades ago. And there are also some nutcases (on both sides of the aisle) who make each side seem more extreme
Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
AGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 17 Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1541 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 17): If the Republican party changes, it will likely be for the better.
Correct , although you will not agree with the type of republicans I would like to have. One thing that we should agree on is... we need people who stand for there values whatever side they are on. If you are a republican ... its low taxes , cut spending , and free-market. If your a democrat , its government regulation , and social welfare issues . We need both sides , what we don't need are politicians who weasel back and forth for political gain. I for one appreciate liberals and conservatives , as long as they show their colors and stand for there values.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10561 posts, RR: 53 Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1524 times:
Quoting AGM100 (Reply 20): Correct , although you will not agree with the type of republicans I would like to have.
You don't know that. I voted for Obama not because I'm some flaming liberal, but because I believed that Obama could better run the country than the Republicans could and that Palin was a particularly bad choice for VP suggesting what kind of people McCain would hire to help him.
Quoting AGM100 (Reply 20): If you are a republican ... its low taxes , cut spending , and free-market.
Those things are generally good things, with some exceptions. Kind of like autopilot - when the skies are clear and the machine is running smoothly, keep it engaged. The thing is, you shouldn't run on autopilot when you run into a problem. That's what Bush did, and that's why we have this mess now. Autopilot doesn't tell you that your plane is icing, nor does it deice the plane. Similarly, ideology does not solve problems. It might head off a problem, but once you're in it, you gotta deal with it. Stay the course is not a method for solving ANY problem.
Quoting AGM100 (Reply 20): If your a democrat , its government regulation , and social welfare issues .
I agree with this too sometimes. Of course, too much of this can cause the problem, just like overflying a plane. Jimmy Carter learned that the hard way and collected an early retirement.
Quoting AGM100 (Reply 20): I for one appreciate liberals and conservatives , as long as they show their colors and stand for there values.
Fxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7027 posts, RR: 93 Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1514 times:
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 12): My bet is that he gave up on his idealogical principles long ago and this is just a move to preserve himself, political party be damned.
See his voting record. This stunt, a la Little Joe, may or may not save his senate seat. As stated above, he isn't a yes vote for the Democrats. I guess this news trumps bird flu outbreak?
Klaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 20860 posts, RR: 55 Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1514 times:
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 12): The reason they lack imagination and ability to engage in constructive dialogue is because they are desperate and have been marginalized by the Democrats.
It could also be that they have marginalized themselves by moving ever more towards their outer fringe and getting away with that for too long to remember now how compromise actually works in the real world...
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 12): It takes real courage and leadership to engage in constructive dialogue, rather than in destructive politics, and that only goes to show that the Republicans are in fact wanting for a real leader.
That looks like a very good observation to me.
Quoting AGM100 (Reply 16): Now we just need to replace about 30 other republicans and we will be much better off.
Sure. The only failure of the Republican Party is that it's not ideological enough!
AGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 17 Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1502 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 21): Who are you, and what did you do with AGM?
As long as I know who they are ,,, I can make the choice. My appreciation is only for their clear position .. whichever side. But I will never vote for a hippie liberal democrat pinko commie ...
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
25 D L X: Michael Steele is P I S S E D !!! http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...le-specter-fipped-the-bird-at-gop/ One thing is certain: this is going to be
26 Mt99: Who cares about Michael Steel? Who is he anyways? What does Rush Limbaugh think?
27 Aa757first: To be honest, I don't think much of it has to do with that. Specter (or "Specter the Defector") has never felt much allegiance to the Republican Part
28 Mir: I see your point, but I think we need more people like Specter in government. Not in that they switch their party, but in that they may not necessari
29 D L X: We need representatives to represent constituents, not parties. I'm all for the banning of political parties in toto.
30 PHLBOS: He recently became Chairman of the National GOP. Ask and you shall receive... From Rush's web-site: http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/dai...042809/con
31 FreequentFlier: Klaus, I'm quite frankly thrilled that Specter is switching parties. In times of uncertainty, a certain level of clarity is key. Specter and the Dems
32 Mt99: Wrong. The majority does. Long live democracy!
33 Superfly: Good for Senator Arlen Specter and the people of the state of Pennsylvania.
34 Yellowstone: Limbaugh's comment, which is surprisingly reasonable if wrong in its claim that Specter's decision says nothing bad about the Republicans, brings up t
35 DocLightning: I'm just mystified. That's all. Very mystified.
36 D L X: Right. The idea that Spector isn't "right for the job" as FreEquentflier says is simply false. If "right for the job" means representing Pennsylvania
37 Falcon84: And he'll probably be the next Democratic Senator from PA. The GOP, right now, is seen as a loser in much of the nation, and Specter isn't welcome in
38 Falcon84: Rush Limbaugh is now calling for John McCain to leave the party. Lindsay Graham of South Carolina is under fire for not being conservataive enough. GO
39 Venus6971: What this means that there will be no debate anymore, no comprimise, tryanny of the majority. Instead of legislation that was brought about by comprim
40 Texan: But can we not ask the same question about the Democratic Party? With the country's shift to the right and the acceptance by Democrats of more tradit
41 FreequentFlier: You seem to be missing the p Falcon, feel free to brag, I'm not in the slightest bit concerned. As the Republicans learned in 2004, you can lose majo
42 Falcon84: Where was such talk when Bush and the GOP majorities were running up huge deficits, FF? They sound so noble now, but your party has spent us into obl
43 FreequentFlier: Again, stop. First of all, there WAS such talk about the deficits Bush was ringing up. It was conservatives who were outraged most about Bridges to N
44 Falcon84: Time for you to stop. There was not conservative "outrage" between 2001 and 2006, when the GOP controlled the government. They spent like drunken sai
45 Ken777: Politicians do like to get re-elected, but the Republican Party is the side that has changed over the past 40 years, not Specter. Today's Republican
46 Lufthansa411: Please, cut the melodramatic act. While I think it is good to have a mutli-party system with many different points of view being represented, the rom
47 FreequentFlier: *slaps forehead* Ok Ken, if you're not going to bother engaging in debate, I'm not sure what you're doing in the political forums. The video I linked
48 RedFlyer: You know, I've never really bought into that line. The problem with the Republicans is that their beliefs and ideology have not changed but, rather,
49 Usair320: As a PA resident and registered republican, I was planning to vote for Specter in the primary. I disagree with many of his votes on spending, but I li
50 Ken777: Why debate something like WMD in Iraq? Did they finally find any? What's the KIA and WIA number to date? That is all I care about at the moment. Mayb
51 Texan: Interesting editorial in today's New York Times by Senator Snowe (R-ME) addressing the Republican Party and the direction she thinks it is heading and
52 Falcon84: And therein lies the POTENTIAL trouble for Republicans-running away the center-right, or the old Eisenhower base of the party. That would take a huge
53 AustinAirport: Yes, That's So funny. I think its hilarious and a total slap in the face to Repubs. Way To go Arlen Specter!!
54 Usair320: And she's right..... I like to use this analogy. The country needs a right wing, a left wing, and a center body to fly. Likeswise the Republican part
55 Aa757first: Yes and no. I definitely agree that this move was to preserve his career. He could run as an independent, but that would come at a major disadvantage
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