Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Pentagon Fires Top General In Afghanistan.  
User currently offlineFxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7305 posts, RR: 85
Posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2030 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Not since MacArthur has top brass been canned. Is this Gates doing the right thing for the war in Afganistan or playing the part of a puppet for the new administration?

article

12 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16878 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2011 times:

General David McKiernan is a good guy, he did a heck of a job as commander of US Army Europe. This decision is not an Obama political move, it's a move probably recommended by General Petraus head of Central Command and supported by Admiral Mullen and Secretary Gates. General McKiernan's replacement Army Lieutenant General Stanley McChrystal is a Green Beret Special Forces guy, he Commanded US Special Forces in Iraq during General Petraus counter insurgency surge. This change reflects the new focus on Afghanistan, they're getting a surge of troops in the coming months and they are going to couple that with the same anti insurgency doctrine that worked so well in Iraq.

This represents a change of tactics, looks like more Special Forces and unconventional warfare and less of the more conventional strategies commanders have been pursuing. I think this is a good sign, and hopefully will lead to success.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1992 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):
Stanley McChrystal is a Green Beret Special Forces guy

And apparently known as the Hidden General
http://www.smh.com.au/world/hidden-g...o-fight-alqaeda-20090512-b1t0.html
That must have been a match for the hidden Imam one supposes!

As to who he will be fighting, here is an interesting article on the problems of Pakistan which might not be that far conceptually as well as geographically from those in Afghanistan.
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/our-op...akistan-20090512-b1ow.html?page=-1
Our opportunity in Pakistan

It includes the following observations:
As a result, movements such as White Ribbon Day are seen as some kind of Western implant, unsurprising in a country where the top 10 bestseller books include The Secret Wars Of The CIA and How Mossad Rules The World. One of the greatest public relations victories of radical Islam has been its positioning as a resistance movement against Western hegemony.

and
Pakistan is one of a handful of nations that has attempted to define its identity through religion. Throughout its history, the dominance of anti-democratic forces has been the norm. As is the local mantra, the country is ruled by Allah, the army and America.

Ironical??


User currently offlineFxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7305 posts, RR: 85
Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1992 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):
will lead to success.

...continued success!  yes 


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1976 times:



Quoting Fxramper (Reply 4):
Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):
will lead to success.

...continued success!

The longer it lasts, the more success it is? C Northcote Parkinson would turn in his grave.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_Northcote_Parkinson
A Short History of the British Navy, 1776-1816

Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_Law


User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12594 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1963 times:



Quoting Fxramper (Thread starter):
Not since MacArthur has top brass been canned. Is this Gates doing the right thing for the war in Afganistan or playing the part of a puppet for the new administration?



Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):
This decision is not an Obama political move, it's a move probably recommended by General Petraus head of Central Command and supported by Admiral Mullen and Secretary Gates.

Or Petraus and Mullen are puppets too!  Smile



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1925 times:

Quoting Fxramper (Thread starter):
Not since MacArthur has top brass been canned.

General David McKiernan is no where near what General MacArthur had deteriorated to by 1951 - which is a compliment to McKiernan. Neither was he commander of a force such as MacArthur had in Korea and the Far East.

There have been many four star generals, and admirals, fired since MacArthur. Several on levels higher than McKiernan.

I really don't know a lot about the general - but it appears he has the most fatal military disease - being unlucky at the wrong place at the wrong time.

He may be one heck of a trainer and commander to build and get an army into shape to fight - and then not be a fighting commander for this particular type of war. Or he may not be the best political guy, because the job is very much politics and getting along with/ working with the local government.

The right man in the right place happens relatively seldom. Heck if Patton had been Commander Allied Forces Europe and Eisenhower had Third Army - it might have taken another four or five years to stop Hitler.

KcKiernan may just be the wrong guy at the wrong time.

And I don't see politics above the JCS level in this at all. It is not a surprise to folks following the war closely.

[Edited 2009-05-12 11:27:18]

User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4335 posts, RR: 28
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1915 times:



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 10):
General David McKiernan is no where near what General MacArthur had deteriorated to by 1951 - which is a compliment to McKiernan. Neither was he commander of a force such as MacArthur had in Korea and the Far East.

There have been many four star generals, and admirals, fired since MacArthur. Several on levels higher than McKiernan.

I really don't know a lot about the general - but it appears he has the most fatal military disease - being unlucky at the wrong place at the wrong time.

He may be one heck of a trainer and commander to build and get an army into shape to fight - and then not be a fighting commander for this particular type of war. Or he may not be the best political guy, because the job is very much politics and getting along with/ working with the local government.

The right man in the right place happens relatively seldom. Heck if Patton had been Commander Allied Forces Europe and Eisenhower had Third Army - it might have taken another four or five years to stop Hitler.

KcKiernan may just be the wrong guy at the wrong time.

And I don't see politics above the JCS level in this at all. It is not a surprise to folks following the war closely.

Fantastic post. And you know your history, too. MacArther wielded way too much power. Although had he stayed in place the Korean peninsula would be a different world today (probably for the better), the consequences of that power would not have boded well for the civilian-military command structure of the U.S. Truman's firing had far more to do with reasserting civilian authority over a military commander who had simply garnered far too much power and influence than warranted.

As for McKiernan, I wonder how much of his firing had to do with the fact that he got caught between two administrations with different philosophical perspectives regarding how the war in Afghanistan should be fought. In the final analysis, I think it's always a good thing when a change in course is implemented in any organization. It shows the strategy is not bogged down by conventional thought (AKA "Group-Think") nor a fear of the unknown.



My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
User currently offlineBeta From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 295 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1852 times:



Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 6):
KcKiernan may just be the wrong guy at the wrong time.

 checkmark  Agreed.
From what I can gather Gen. McKiernan is an excellent commander. He did an outstanding job running the ground war during the initial invasion of Iraq, which by all military objectives was successful blitzkrieg. But that is also his Achilles heel in the Afghan theater. His background is in armor, and virtually all his command experiences have been in conventional units. He had zero Afghan experience when Gates himself nominated him for the Afghan command, which frankly boggles the mind (but then it's Bush and Co.). So basically Bush and Gates set him up for failure, then Gates turned around and blamed him for fulfilling that prophecy. That's politics! Gen. McKiernan is just a good man being put in a wrong place at the wrong time. I thank him for his long, and faithful service, and wish him the best. What really boggles the mind is that Gen. George Casey, who was an absolutely lousy, incompetent theater commander, and ran Iraq to the abyss in his 2-3 yrs, got himself a promotion to Army COS job. Meanwhile McKiernan got the axe for asking for more troops and resources, which everyone agrees.
Gen. Stan "the Man" McChrystal is the polar opposite. His specialty is in the black ops world, much of which are classified and will remain classified. He was a Green Beret, but served only 1+ yrs in the ODA, and the rest was in the Ranger force. His claim to fame was when he ran JSOC during most of Bush yrs. By most public accounts he ran a tight ship and got a lot of "big fish." But that's when he had virtually cart-blanch authority and autonomy. It remains to be seen whether his no non-sense, results-oriented, pushing-the- edge attitude will work in the political world of NATO ISAF command, which is fraught with national and international politics. I wish him luck. However, I expect the special ops guys and gals will have a freer hand and greater authority in Afghan, now that a black ops specialist is in charge.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1846 times:



Quoting Beta (Reply 8):
Gen. Stan "the Man" McChrystal is the polar opposite. His specialty is in the black ops world, much of which are classified and will remain classified.

Which is EXACTLY the kind of background is needed, I believe, in running an unconventional war in an area where you can't use massive armoured units in the mountains.

This is the approach to Afghanistan that we should have had all along. You face an unconventional foe, you need unconventional means to fight him.


User currently offlineBeta From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 295 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1828 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 9):
This is the approach to Afghanistan that we should have had all along

Incorrect! Should have done your research. The Afghan theater was at one time the playing field of the unconventional warfare types. From the very beginning of the invasion, it was teams of Special Forces, and other special ops forces of other services and nations that teamed up with the NA to overthrow the Taliban. After that they roamed around the country pretty much free-reined. By 04, Bush robbed the place of personnel, money and resources for Iraq. Paradoxically as Iraq descended into a quagmire, the careerists officers began to see Afghan theater as a safer place for career ticket-punch than Iraq and they wanted a piece of the pie. The mission began to morph into what it is today. And also the Taliban had recovered fully by that time in Pakistan.
However, one interesting news that has not been talked much about with this development is the appointment of an American Lt Gen as McChrystal's deputy, a newly created position. With the appointments of American generals as 1-2 at the top and the pouring in of reinforcement Pres. Obama basically indicates to other allied nations that it's going to be an American show with him penning the script not withstanding his multilateral talks. No if/and/or/but. They can either play in the featured presentation with McChrystal, or go play in the lady league. It was customary that the Brits or Canadian got the deputy slot, but not this time. NATO allies get shut out at the top of food chain. I think the Brits, the Canadian, the Australians, the Danes will get on board, and the rest will leave or stand on the sidelines cheering on.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10901 posts, RR: 37
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1688 times:

Obama sends another 17000 troops to Afganistan on top of the 30000 already

In an interview with Newsweek magazine, Obama said the hardest thing he has had to do so far in his administration was to order 17,000 troops to Afghanistan on top of an estimated 38,000 that were already in Afghanistan. The interview was released on the Web Saturday.

He did not rule out the possibility of sending even more troops...

http://www.military.com/news/article...ama-early-to-mull-more-troops.html

 Confused  Yeah sure



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1672 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 9):
Which is EXACTLY the kind of background is needed, I believe, in running an unconventional war in an area where you can't use massive armoured units in the mountains.

I doubt if this part of his background will be that much of an asset either in Congress or in Afghanistan.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/gen...tiny/2009/05/17/1242498637027.html
General McChrystal is likely to be questioned over the findings of the report, compiled in 2006, during Senate hearings needed to confirm his appointment. His special operations unit used Camp Nama, an acronym for "Nasty Ass Military Area", which had a fearsome reputation.

The report says inmates were regularly stripped naked, subjected to sleep deprivation and extreme cold, placed in painful stress positions and beaten.

General McChrystal is lionised in the US as a warrior-scholar. Last week the media carried admiring reports on how he eats just one meal a day and operates on a few hours of sleep.

His appointment signals a shift in US tactics, from reaching out to the Taliban to a more aggressive approach. Critics warn that his robust methods may generate hostility among Afghan civilians towards US and other NATO forces.

One senior official who asked for the identity of the international organisation for which he works to be withheld said: "Expect to see secret night raids in Afghanistan, with more civilians getting hurt and no one being held accountable. Because of his history in Iraq we were alarmed when we heard he was going to be in charge in Afghanistan."


Perhaps a re-appraisal of the Hidden General might be in order?


Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Hard Fighting 2 Para In Afghanistan..Losing? posted Wed Sep 24 2008 11:24:45 by AGM100
10 French Soldiers Died In Afghanistan posted Tue Aug 19 2008 06:33:00 by Frequentflyer
Any Of You Been To Gardez In Afghanistan? posted Tue Mar 4 2008 17:43:30 by Dougloid
Prince Harry Fighting In Afghanistan! posted Thu Feb 28 2008 09:39:11 by Cadet985
Al-Qaida Commander In Afghanistan Killed posted Thu Jan 31 2008 12:28:46 by Wingnut767
Bomb Kills 3 German Troops In Afghanistan posted Sat May 19 2007 11:42:16 by LHStarAlliance
War In Afghanistan posted Mon Feb 19 2007 03:40:56 by NWOrientDC10
Top Gear In America posted Sun Feb 11 2007 21:21:52 by 9V
New UN Secretary General In Jan '07 posted Tue Oct 10 2006 10:33:37 by ANCFlyer
Town's Top Cop In Trouble Over Wife's Nude Pics posted Thu Sep 14 2006 03:38:55 by IAH777