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President Obama UPs The C.A.F.E. Ante  
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7521 posts, RR: 23
Posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5978 times:

I am a bit surprised that a thread on this particular new subject wasn't already started.

A couple of key web-articles on the subject matter:
http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2009/05/19/obama_cafe

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...1170&refer=home&sid=aKUXiuTCkyhw

Note: for those that may not be familiar with the CAFE term, it stands for Corporate Average Fuel Economy.

Like him or hate him, Rush Limbaugh sums up the concept fairly accurately here:

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/dai...051809/content/01125104.guest.html

Exerpt:
Now, the way this works, the CAFE standards, you have to average the kind of cars every manufacturer makes. So if you're going to make some SUVs that get 14 or 12 you gotta have some smart cars that get 40 or 50, and then it has to average 35 miles per gallon a car by 2016.

Personal take: As if the previous CAFE increase (passed in 2007) wasn't enough of a burden for ALL vehicle manufacturers (and not just the Big 3). While I'm personally not surprised by the President's actions, I am a bit disappointed that the automakers essentially rolled over at the announcement.

To put things in perspective: if one checks out the Fuel Economy Guide http://www.fueleconomy.gov/, one will discover that there is NOT ONE 2009 GAS-POWERED VEHICLE LISTED THAT AVERAGES 39 MPG (the 2016 target number for cars) and there are only 3 hybrids (Prius, Civic Hybrid & 2010 Insight) that meet or exceed that average today. I'm sure many police departments will not be too enthused about this because these standards essentially threaten the very existence of their current fleet vehicles (Chevy Impala, Dodge Charger & the Ford PI).

On the light truck side, only the Escape/Mariner/Tribute Hybrids average over 30 mpg (the 2016 CAFE target for light trucks) today; however towing is NOT recommended for these hybrid versions of the small SUVs.

And for those that think import manufacturer's will not be impacted by this, think again. In one article in today's Philadelphia Inquirer (for some reason, it's only available in print form but not online, otherwise I would've posted the link); one Toyota exec. openly admits that meeting the new light truck standard will be more of a challenge.

Upshoot: If you want a large car or an SUV, it would be wise to buy one sooner ratehr than later.

Note: the largest trucks and SUVs (examples: Chevy Suburban, Ford Expedition, Super Duty trucks, etc.) are heavy enough to be exempt from both EPA ratings and CAFE standards.

[Edited 2009-05-20 10:48:44]


"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
103 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5972 times:

This will be a disaster. Again the DNC is trying to tell us how to live our lives and how to behave and what to buy. Let the poeple that buy gas guzzlers shoulder the burden. This will hurt dealers and customers. Hopefully Obama will be such a disaster that in three years he will get the boot and we can do away with this. 35.5 MPG is a little tough. I drive a full size car that averages 25 MPG. I think that is fair for the time frame. We are not the kind of country that everyone drives little Fiats. Nor can we be.

User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39885 posts, RR: 74
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5961 times:



Quoting PHLBOS (Thread starter):
Now, the way this works, the CAFE standards, you have to average the kind of cars every manufacturer makes. So if you're going to make some SUVs that get 14 or 12 you gotta have some smart cars that get 40 or 50, and then it has to average 35 miles per gallon a car by 2016.

Is it make by make or entire corporation?
CAn Chevrolet make the tiny Euro-style econoboxes while Cadillac and Buick make the nice large luxury sedans that people actually want to buy?

Does this give Mercedes and BMW the freedom to continue to sale gas-guzzler like they've always have here in the United States?



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7521 posts, RR: 23
Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5961 times:



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
Hopefully Obama will be such a disaster that in three years he will get the boot and we can do away with this.

A sooner approach would be to hand Obama a much more conservative (I mean REAL conservatives not the RINO type) House & Senate in the 2010 elections. It helped keep Clinton at bay during most of the 90s.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6594 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5957 times:
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Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
Again the DNC is trying to tell us how to live our lives and how to behave

The GOP doesn't seem to have a problem to tell gays how to behave or how to live their lives.. but alas we digress...

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
35.5 MPG is a little tough

Don't you have faith in America's engineering and know how?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
. We are not the kind of country that everyone drives little Fiats

You will still have the choice of driving a dump truck if you so wish. However, it will be more efficient. If there are enough of people like you, then i bet that a company will come along selling 40MPG dump trucks. Supply and demand. Maybe you can start one!

If you demand it, someone will build it. Isn't that the basis of capitalism

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
. Hopefully Obama will be such a disaster that in three years

Mr. Limbaugh?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39885 posts, RR: 74
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5949 times:



Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 3):
(I mean REAL conservatives not the RINO type) House & Senate in the 2010 elections.

Not going to happen.
I've never seen the Republicans go up to bat for US auto manufactures or steel.
It was Nixon that initially lowered tarriffs on imports and under Reagan when most US steel plants closed.
Those right-wingers you speak of are too busy legislating their religious views on everyone.
I seriously doubt they care much for the US auto industry one bit. In fact, conservative Republican Richard Shelby (R-Alabama) nailed himself on the cross against the auto bailout and is the mouthpiece for Honda and Mercedes.
Gee, is it just a coincidence that they have plants in Alabama?  scratchchin 



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39885 posts, RR: 74
Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5946 times:



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 4):
Don't you have faith in America's engineering and know how?

Japan & Germany can't seem to pull it off either.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5937 times:



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
We are not the kind of country that everyone drives little Fiats. Nor can we be.

Its trickle down economics as well. It will kill the personal size boat business, ATV's , RV's and anything else you plan to tow.

Now , I am torn about this . In some ways if it drives the market to make a reliable and powerful engine then it is a good thing. Somehow we need to to have a 300+ HP high torque engine that is useful , mass produceable and gets 35mpg. My guess is this will be slow to happen ... most likely they will simply downsize the power and weight of the vehicles..

But all of this is just so typical of the left ... big government circumvents the free market with this type of mandate. I guess it is just bound to happen ... all in the name of saving the world for Al and the gang.



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7521 posts, RR: 23
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5938 times:



Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
Is it make by make or entire corporation?
CAn Chevrolet make the tiny Euro-style econoboxes while Cadillac and Buick make the nice large luxury sedans that people actually want to buy?

I believe it's still by individual makes, as it was before; that's why you saw Buick and Oldsmobile, Mercury and even Cadillac launch compacts/subcompacts during the 70s and 80s.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
Does this give Mercedes and BMW the freedom to continue to sale gas-guzzler like they've always have here in the United States?

All they'll do is just slap the gas guzzler tax(es) on their window stickers as before and I'm sure their higher sticker prices offset any additional fines imposed.

Technically, the Big 3 could just say "Screw You!" to the Feds (like what BMW and Mecedes have done in the past) and still offer their current vehicles with just the gas guzzler taxes imposed on the stickers (and incorparate any other fines on the window sticker); but since 2 of them are now feeding off the goverment trough, that may not be plausible.

Personally, I wish that Mulally over at Ford would grow some and just say to Obama, "Look, we just launched a hybrid Fusion (41 City/36 Highway) to exceed the original 2020 CAFE goal of 35 with years to spare so we can still sell, trucks and large cars to customers, police agencies, taxi companies, limo companies, etc. that actually need them. Why are you screwing us even further for doing the 'right' thing? Enough is enough!"



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39885 posts, RR: 74
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5932 times:



Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 8):
Personally, I wish that Mulally over at Ford would grow some and just say to Obama, "Look, we just launched a hybrid Fusion (41 City/36 Highway) to exceed the original 2020 CAFE goal of 35 with years to spare so we can still sell, trucks and large cars to customers, police agencies, taxi companies, limo companies, etc. that actually need them. Why are you screwing us even further for doing the 'right' thing? Enough is enough!"

Ford didn't take any bailout money so he does have more flexibility.
Perhaps GM & Chrysler is taking the money now and then return in about a year and show Washington that their 'goals' are unattainable and that no other country has produced such a product either. Thus laxing the CAFE requirements.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7521 posts, RR: 23
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5930 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 3):
(I mean REAL conservatives not the RINO type) House & Senate in the 2010 elections.

Not going to happen.
I've never seen the Republicans go up to bat for US auto manufactures or steel.

Funny, you should that. Look what I came across in yesterday's edition of The Bulletin:

http://www.thebulletin.us/articles/2...ints/doc4a1248ceb446e741987254.txt

Exerpt to wet your appetite:

As GM announces its plan to import vehicles from China while it closes 16 factories in the U.S., one Michigan Republican is taking to steps to protect American jobs and economic interests.

U.S. Rep. Mike Rogers is drafting legislation that prohibits the use of federal dollars in the restructuring of General Motors and/or Chrysler if such funds would result in jobs being sent overseas. Michigan has been hard hit by the economic downturn and is heavily reliant on the auto industry.


[Edited 2009-05-20 11:45:14]


"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5921 times:



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 4):
The GOP doesn't seem to have a problem to tell gays how to behave or how to live their lives.. but alas we digress...

What does that have to do with this? We are talking about people losing jobs and cars becoming very expensive. Keep the other propaganda for CNN please.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 4):
Don't you have faith in America's engineering and know how?

Goes further than that. Not to mention we are an industrial nation. Men make their living with trucks and such and the targets Obama is thinking of is a stretch. I have no doubt we can do it but we are not the country to have little econo boxes all over like Italy or Brazil. It's not practical.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 4):
You will still have the choice of driving a dump truck if you so wish. However, it will be more efficient. If there are enough of people like you, then i bet that a company will come along selling 40MPG dump trucks. Supply and demand. Maybe you can start one!

Yea I am sure that dump truck will have a hamster on a treadmill powering it. Your not even in the ballpark. Which is so scary.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 4):
Mr. Limbaugh?

More CNN hate mongering? Come on, the man makes a lot of sense. Just because he opposes your savior doesn't mean his words are any less credible than someone like James Carville.


User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6594 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5915 times:
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Quoting Superfly (Reply 6):
Japan & Germany can't seem to pull it off either.

The 2010 Toyota Prius is the first true hybrid to offer 50 miles to the gallon based on extraordinary fuel economy achievements.

http://www.newsoxy.com/hybrid-cars/2010-toyota-prius/article11928.html

the Insight managed a respectable 43.2 combined mpg, landing at the top of EPA estimates of 40 city and 43 highway mpg.

http://reviews.cnet.com/coupe-hatchb...0867_7-33517592.html?tag=mncol;txt

But like many new clean diesels, which meet even California’s tough emissions rules, the Jetta scoffs at its sticker. Hoarding fuel like a mobile Scrooge, I averaged a remarkable 48 m.p.g. over more than 150 miles of freeway driving. That’s the best mileage of any American-market car I’ve tested — gas, diesel or hybrid.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/23/au...biles/autoreviews/23-vw-jetta.html

Give it a few more year.. and NIKV69 can have his dump truck  Smile



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5915 times:



Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 10):
As GM announces its plan to import vehicles from China while it closes 16 factories in the U.S., one Michigan Republican is taking to steps to protect American jobs and economic interests.

G Beck was discussing the possibility that the administration is dealing the auto biz to the Chinese so that the Chinese play nice with the loans we are sucking them off for. Meanwhile China is laughing and readying to decouple from the dollar with Brazil ,,,then they do not care if we buy cars or not. I guess it is all ok as long as we all just world community organize ...

I don't know if this is true ,, but it was being bantered about in a discussion.



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6594 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5913 times:
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Quoting AGM100 (Reply 7):
Somehow we need to to have a 300+ HP high torque engine that is useful , mass produceable and gets 35mpg.

Challenge the minds of this great country to do it!

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 7):
My guess is this will be slow to happen ... most likely they will simply downsize the power and weight of the vehicles..

If the people want it, someone will build it.. that the basis of the:

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 7):
free market



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 11):

What does that have to do with this? We are talking about people losing jobs and cars becoming very expensive. Keep the other propaganda for CNN please.

Nothing. just exposing some picking and choosing on the part of some...



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39885 posts, RR: 74
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5913 times:



Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 10):
Look what I came across in yesterday's edition of The Bulliten:

http://www.thebulletin.us/articles/2...4.txt

Most Democrats from Michigan would do exactly the same. It's sad what that di$h!t Henry Waxman did to John Dingell. Here is article you may find of interest.
I fully support U.S. Rep. Mike Rogers efforts but I doubt many Republicans will get behind him and he is a shrinking minority in his own party.
Read this article in regards to a "REAL conservative".

http://www.autoobserver.com/2008/11/...-business-in-alabama-not-very.html



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39885 posts, RR: 74
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5904 times:



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 12):
The 2010 Toyota Prius....

YIKES!
Not a good example.
You may want watch this clip before you boast about hybrids.
They are terrible on our environment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooN9INJxxy4

Take 5 minutes out to watch this clip.
Tell me if you still think the hybrid is a model fuel efficient vehicle.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineUAL777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1556 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5897 times:



Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):

Not going to happen.
I've never seen the Republicans go up to bat for US auto manufactures or steel.
It was Nixon that initially lowered tarriffs on imports and under Reagan when most US steel plants closed.
Those right-wingers you speak of are too busy legislating their religious views on everyone.
I seriously doubt they care much for the US auto industry one bit. In fact, conservative Republican Richard Shelby (R-Alabama) nailed himself on the cross against the auto bailout and is the mouthpiece for Honda and Mercedes.

It is politics. I think we are going to see a more protectionist shift by the republican party in the future. It is the only way they will get more votes.



It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39885 posts, RR: 74
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5896 times:



Quoting UAL777 (Reply 17):
I think we are going to see a more protectionist shift by the republican party in the future. It is the only way they will get more votes.

I certianly hope so and even I'd hop on board with that.
Can you imagine Superfly voting for a Republican?  Wow!
If the Republicans focus on protecting the US auto industry like Germany and Japan already does for their auto makers, then yes I will support those Republicans.
It's a shame that the Democrats replaced John Dingle with that lame Hollywood mouthpiece Henry Waxman to chair the House Energy and Commerce Committee.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5886 times:



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 14):
Challenge the minds of this great country to do it!

I am thinking that a cable and chain towing system will come sooner. A system where one could couple 3 Prius , 2 FITS , and a Volt together to pull your 16ft boat.



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineSv7887 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1025 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5880 times:



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 7):
Somehow we need to to have a 300+ HP high torque engine that is useful , mass produceable and gets 35mpg. My guess is this will be slow to happen ... most likely they will simply downsize the power and weight of the vehicles..

It's definitely doable. We have clean diesel technology that could do it. The Mercedes Bluetec and VW Diesels get great mileage. Even a aluminum Jaguar XJ8 can get around 30-31 MPG on the highway. It's got a 300 HP V-8, with a 6 speed transmission. I know it's not 35 MPG combined, but it's not a bad start.

As for the Prius and other hybrids replacing one problem (imported oil and tailpipe emissions) with another (imported batteries from China, and the environmental damage from battery production) isn't the greatest of solutions. It would make a lot more sense to use technology like Ford's Eco-boost, diesels, and batteries made from more environmentally friendly Lithium ion technology.

The Fusion Hybrid actually got over 1,100 miles on one tank with a MPG of nearly 81. They did use some "hypermiling" techniques, but it's goes to show an American company is capable of top flight engineering.

Source:http://www.motorward.com/2009/04/2010-ford-fusion-hybrid-sets-a-record-81-mpg/

As for those microcars, those things are death traps on American roads.

Source: http://www.autoblog.com/2009/04/14/i...ds-sub-compacts-fair-poorly-again/

Since the population continues to grow in the USA you aren't going to see mid size and up vehicles suddenly disappear.


User currently offlineZentraedi From Japan, joined Jun 2007, 660 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5877 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 11):

More CNN hate mongering? Come on, the man makes a lot of sense. Just because he opposes your savior doesn't mean his words are any less credible than someone like James Carville.

The fact that you care so much about "his opinion" is what's disturbing. People like Limbaugh, Hannity and Keith Olberman are nothing more than ENTERTAINERS.

They get paid money to rile people up.


Anyway, CAFE is really nothing but BS legislation. If they want to improve efficiency, a simple gas tax would be much more effective. But oh noes!!! Even though it's more efficient, "tax" is a dirty word and political suicide.

[Edited 2009-05-20 12:21:07]

User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39885 posts, RR: 74
Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5870 times:

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 21):
Anyway, CAFE is really nothing but BS legislation.

  
AMEN!!!   

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 21):
If they want to improve efficiency, a simple gas tax would be much more effective. But oh noes!!! Even though it's more efficient, "tax" is a dirty word and political suicide.

Or just simply let the market decide.

[Edited 2009-05-20 12:23:36]


Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5863 times:



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 20):
We have clean diesel technology that could do it.

Agreed , but I don't think the Goreites like that ..yukky diesel thing. Besides this is not about emissions or saving the environment ... its about state ownership of our industry. Polar bears are just he cute front figure.

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 21):
But oh noes!!! Even though it's more efficient, "tax" is a dirty word and political suicide.

It is more efficient , it also takes money out of the economy so that we cant buy cars . So you are correct raising taxes does the trick. No one can afford a car,, ... walla ! problem solved.



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineZentraedi From Japan, joined Jun 2007, 660 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5853 times:



Quoting Superfly (Reply 22):

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 21):
If they want to improve efficiency, a simple gas tax would be much more effective. But oh noes!!! Even though it's more efficient, "tax" is a dirty word and political suicide.

Or just simply let the market decide.

Unfortunately, that doesn't work since the market can vote for artificially cheap gas and ignores externalities like smog and pollution.

Say, gas went up to $20 a gal. You'd find overwhelming support for any sort of war that might help lower that price NOW. But hey, if we can just shift the burden to future taxpayers, it's all good, right?

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 23):

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 21):
But oh noes!!! Even though it's more efficient, "tax" is a dirty word and political suicide.

It is more efficient , it also takes money out of the economy so that we cant buy cars . So you are correct raising taxes does the trick. No one can afford a car,, ... walla ! problem solved.

Hyperbole much?

Just means people will buy more efficient cars. No need for a V8 or V6 when it comes to regular commutes.


25 PHLBOS : " target=_blank>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/23/au....html Exerpt from your above-link (Bold emphais added): The Jetta is frugal in the middle year
26 Mt99 : 2016-2009 = 7 years..lots of stuff can get better in 7 years....
27 Post contains images AGM100 : No ..means we are forced to buy "more efficient cars" big difference. And gas taxes are going up anyway ... we have no choice Washington has enslaved
28 Superfly : Did you watch the clip? I used to be on the environmentalist bandwagon too until I read the facts and immediately jumped off.
29 Post contains links PHLBOS : Funny, that you should mention that. Recently, ABC's Diane Sawyer interviewed White House Energy and Climate Director, Carol Browner (who was head of
30 MaverickM11 : You're familiar with our government, yes? That's below all of their email signatures..
31 PHLBOS : More like 4 model years, because the 2009 models are already out and the tooling/retooling for the 2010 (some of which are presently available) and p
32 Post contains images Yellowstone : Here's the fuel efficient car I'm waiting for: It's a Volkswagen prototype, referred to as the 1L, that can travel 100 km on 1L of gasoline. That's 23
33 Superfly : ...and a smart guy like yourself with a promising career will certainly be able to afford one when you finish college there in Cambridge. One thing i
34 Max550 : Unless you exempt the vehicles that men make their living with, which is the way it works. Almost as bad as when we were forced to buy safer cars. Th
35 Planespotting : Duh. Haven't you been listening?
36 VonRichtofen : I wish people would stop touting hybrids as the answer for all of this. Hybrids are a scham. The energy required to manufacture and ship the batteries
37 Superfly : Ralph Nader sure made a living blasting the US auto manufactures but keep in mind, German and Japanese cars didn't have any of the above mentioned fe
38 Max550 : Agreed, if cars would be lighter with smaller, more efficient engines there would be no need for hybrids. Are you saying it's a bad thing that we wer
39 Superfly : When Ralph was running around promoting his books blasting US auto manufactures, he and his followers drove imports in protest as if it was only US c
40 Post contains links and images Superfly : There is no need for hybrids period. Now I am sure if you put in a little electric shaver motor in this car, it would exceed these new CAFE standards
41 Max550 : Nobody is saying that only the US manufacturers are evil. They all need to do better. The domestic cars on average get nearly the same mileage as the
42 Superfly : Of an existing model? If so, which ones? The Mustang, Grand Marquis and Town Car doesn't use the new eco-boost engine. ...thus should carry a huge ca
43 Max550 : '10 Flex, '10 Lincoln MKS and MKT, soon to be in the new Taurus SHO (along with the new Taurus, which lost weight as well) and the F-150. I didn't th
44 Superfly : Oh I already forgot about those newer front-drive variants. Actually I was being sarcastic but what the hell, make these fools pay for their carbon c
45 Dreadnought : Let's be fair - technological advances continue to make cars more efficient. All those power windows, electric seats, airbags, structural safety enhan
46 Mt99 : Missed the point completely. If there is say 40MPG mandate, and there is enough people that want to have a 500hp expedition, then the American ingenu
47 Mt99 : Would we still be kissing the Saudi's behind? How much is that worth to you?[Edited 2009-05-20 20:43:08]
48 Post contains links and images Dreadnought : Quoting Mt99 (Reply 47): Would we still be kissing the Saudi's behind? How much is that worth to you? Yes we will. Why? Because Mexican and Venezuelan
49 Post contains links Aerobalance : If you're calling the Taurus SHO light then we live on different planets, 4,368 lb.! That's heavy! http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/arti
50 FXramper : So social Obama wants to tell the American driver what car they can and can't drive? Is this to distract from all the other failed campaign promises;
51 Max550 : Oops. Don't know what I was looking at there. I think I was comparing the Edge to the Taurus for some reason and got all the numbers mixed together i
52 Dreadnought : He was not an influence on fuel economy - only on safety issues in the 60s and 70s.
53 Mt99 : While i do not know your background, but are you an automotive engineer? Your understanding of physics may be different from the understanding of phy
54 Dreadnought : The old ones were lighter and faster by far. I'm not an engineer, but I've built/modified more than my share of auto engines in my time and am pretty
55 Max550 : Yes he was, just indirectly. Imagine what the CAFE standards would be now if he hadn't run for President in 2000.
56 PHLBOS : I don't believe that those 2010 models have NOT been released just yet. Ford/Lincoln/Mercury's only 2010 models available TODAY are the Mustang and t
57 Dreadnought : Two things. First, those were the old days with carburators, and where you adjusted your timing with a stethescope and a screwdriver. Tune a car one
58 PHLBOS : From my earlier post (I just missed the Edit time by a few minutes): Correction to a typo (in bold), not that anyone noticed: Sorry for any confusion.
59 Max550 : You would be correct. Someone told me they were on sale now, then I was told yesterday that the EcoBoost engine just went into production on Tuesday,
60 Superfly : The marketplace would have decided and mileage probably wouldn't have been much different. Granted, Lincoln and Cadillac would have had some cooler s
61 Post contains links Aerobalance : Seems that EPA ratings and CAFE ratings differ... http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=148693 Maybe enough to matter...
62 Dreadnought : That is very interesting. Also illuminating how government can't even keep something like this straight. It also reinforces my dislike for the govern
63 Mir : It would make a lot more sense that way. I have no problem with tightening fuel economy standards, but requiring an average of 35 by 2016 was pretty
64 Flighty : The cafe has always been designed (with loopholes) to benefit Detroit. It would he much simpler to achieve high MPG using the free market and the pric
65 Superfly : Here we go again. Do you realize how many times you contradicted yourself?
66 AGM100 : No , its already destroyed ,or Chinese. It may only force us to drive shit cars that we don't want... that's all. I am sure it will all work out ...
67 Superfly : Obama NEVER promised to stop the rising sea level. I am no fan of this CAFE crap either but don't put words in the President's mouth. Question: Can t
68 Post contains links Dreadnought : Close enough: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbbIQFcEhcQ
69 Max550 : Right now they can't. If they could what incentive would they have to even attempt to meet them. However, if they really can't meet the standards and
70 AGM100 : He did , but I was just being a ass . This is part of the green revolution , no one can argue that . And frankly I am still considering the rights an
71 Superfly : The gas pump always has. I am one of the few liberals that doesn't buy in to this environmental 'cars are evil' nonsense.
72 Mt99 : Does the government in China mandate companies not to pollute? Or are they free to do whatever they feel like? Just to prove that left to the compani
73 PHLBOS : " target=_blank>http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...48693 Thanks for the link, which makes for an interesting as well as mind-boggling read. BTW,
74 Superfly : Glad you brought China in to this discussion. They supply the batteries and other raw materials for the Toyota Prius. You can't make a Toyota Prius i
75 Max550 : That's why they're building a factory in Mississippi to build more Priuses? I know that it's delayed right now but that's because getting the compone
76 Superfly : Will the batteries be build here?
77 Max550 : I think the reason for the delay is the high cost of shipping all the batteries here. There is one company that makes batteries for hybrids in the US
78 Baroque : Oh you guys are a caution!!! You have just finished having conniptions due to the high prices in 2008 and now you are back on the waste at all costs
79 Imiakhtar : I assume you got those numbers from the BP energy review? If you don't mind me asking, In your opinion, how accurate are those figures? Thanks
80 Dreadnought : The problem is that the "good" oil is nearly gone, in spite of what their government says. Part of that was due to the stupidity of government-appoin
81 Post contains links FreequentFlier : " target=_blank>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbbIQ...cEhcQ Watching that video again (especially now in hindsight) brings to light how desperately
82 Post contains links Baroque : Yes, to be more precise the 2008 Review, this year's should be out any week now. I might IM you in more detail but briefly and sticking to R/P ratios
83 UAL777 : Not so true, and he does have a point. Everything is SO spread out here due to suburbia. I am all in favor of smaller cars and greater fuel efficienc
84 Baroque : That is my problem with the US and its reactions. You are going from the extreme of 2 tonne plus god knows how many litre monsters to electric cars w
85 Aaron747 : I just rented a Honda Stepwagon in Okinawa last month and was getting around 30 MPG in a 2.4L heavy minivan with five people and baggage aboard. Not
86 Mir : It would be nice. But sometimes the government needs to give the private sector a push in the right direction in order to get them rolling. The autom
87 Superfly : Let's build nuclear power plants first to power up these electric cars.
88 Mir : If necessary, sure. But we're hopefully going to see some big advances in the energy generation field in the near future (5-10 years), and that might
89 L410Turbolet : We've been hearing prophecies like that since the 50s.
90 RayChuang : If there is any company that has fortuitous timing over these new mandates, it's the Ford Motor Company. Their new generation Fiesta has been FLYING o
91 Dreadnought : I have not seen any indication that the US government intends to relax the ridiculous restricions on diesels.
92 RayChuang : Ricardo UK recently demonstrated a turbodiesel engine with a special turbocharger/exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) combination unit that only needs a
93 JJJ : So would a Mustang. Quite a few posters here misunderstand what a Smart is.... it's a urban, cool, 2-seat vehicle. A vespa with 4 wheels, roof and a
94 RayChuang : It's hip to buy small cars in the USA nowadays, especially in California. I see a LOT of BMW MINIs, Toyota Yaris (three-door and five-door hatchback
95 Flighty : Hopefully most of us agree that it is very reasonable and easy to achieve 35mpg using today's technology. There are some very comfortable cars that ca
96 UAL777 : 4 years ago I would have disagreed with you. I have however, had the misfortune of living (and thus driving) in south-central Texas for the past 4 ye
97 PHLBOS : Last time I checked, most retail cars that can actually do 200 mph have trouble reaching 15 mpg, never mind 35. The Corvette's EPA mid-20s highway ra
98 JJJ : You have to factor in inflation. BMW 320 (gas) manual gets 6,1 l combined, that's almost 40 mpg-us. Not available in America, I know, but it can be d
99 Baroque : I used to long for such an advanced car as I drove my 1980 Accord until parting with it (sadly) for an Elantra. But the Elantra is an auto (could not
100 Post contains links PHLBOS : Assuming that the BMW 320 is the same model type (but not the engine of course) as the 328 models available in the U.S.; either your conversion to mp
101 Superfly : The Smart is certainly urban and a 2-seater but it is NOT "cool". The Cushman parking meter-maid vehicle looks cooler than a Smart. I am curious as t
102 Post contains links JJJ : I got it here, it's just a technical datasheet so I don't think you'll mind it being in Spanish. http://www.km77.com/eli/motor/fichacompleta.asp?id=2
103 Dreadnought : I used to own a late-model 320 a few years ago, and I can guarantee you that number is correct, if you have a light foot.
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