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GOP Fits & Starts: Powell V. Cheney  
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8289 posts, RR: 26
Posted (5 years 7 months 17 hours ago) and read 3191 times:

This has been very interesting to watch, to say the least, as Powell and Cheney, longtime collaborators in government, have gone after each other in the media of late.

Our beloved ex-VP questioned Powell's Republican credentials last week and has fueled comments again showing the clear division between the moderate and right-wing ends of the party. Is there any hope for Republican teamwork at this point? President Bush has been gracious enough to stay mum on the issue, which is another testament to his character, but it's entirely unsurprising that Cheney can't help lambasting anyone with anything negative to say about anything he laid hands on.

Newt Gingrich somewhat came to Powell's aid, saying the following:

I don't want to pick a fight with Dick Cheney, but the fact is, the Republican party has to be a broad party that appeals across the country...Republicans are going to be very foolish if thy run around deciding that they're going to see how much they can purge us down to the smallest possible space.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0509/22902.html

Karl Rove also added that since neither Cheney or Powell are running for anything, this whole thing amounts to another "false debate". While I don't agree with him on that, I very much agree with his last statement that "anyone who says they are Republican is a Republican".

http://www.politico.com/singletitlev...bcpid=1155201977&bctid=24137058001

That would seem to fly in the face of those who wantonly label those they disagree with as RINOs any chance they get. I still don't understand why so many insist on using such a debasing and derogatory term for fellow party members.


If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
80 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (5 years 7 months 16 hours ago) and read 3175 times:

Well, it seems that, right now, Rove and Newt are a minority when they say such thing, because the mindset right now seems to be "Purge, baby purge!". Until the GOP gets over that mindset, they will continue to have trouble simply putting out a concise message, until the purge ends.

User currently offlineN867DA From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1012 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 7 months 16 hours ago) and read 3170 times:

Perhaps they are waiting for the day when Americans realize that the fundamentalist brand of the GOP was always the right way and there's no need to broaden anything.


A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8954 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (5 years 7 months 15 hours ago) and read 3166 times:



Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
I very much agree with his last statement that "anyone who says they are Republican is a Republican".

I disagree. John McCain was a moderate Republican - to the point that he almost joined the Democratic Party in the past. Obama campaigned as as an extreme liberal, on both social and economic issues. Powell endorsed, campaigned for and voted for Obama, in spite of Obama having not the slightest shred of a Republican agenda. For Powell to say he is a Republican is just stupid - he's a Democrat. Nothing wrong with that, but that's what he is.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8289 posts, RR: 26
Reply 4, posted (5 years 7 months 15 hours ago) and read 3166 times:



Quoting N867DA (Reply 2):
Perhaps they are waiting for the day when Americans realize that the fundamentalist brand of the GOP was always the right way and there's no need to broaden anything.

That'll never happen. I just don't get why the entire party is afraid of Cheney. Just tell the guy to shut up already and put all this to rest.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8474 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (5 years 7 months 15 hours ago) and read 3152 times:

Democrats would be delighted to welcome Colin Powell into the party. There is plenty of room for General Powell and his moderate, "think for yourself" approach.

Democrats are also delighted for Cheney and Rush to guide the future of the Republicans. In fact the DNC is probably the RNC (under Rush's supervision) kicks out all who are not die hard conservatives.

On the day before Memorial Day this old Vietnam Vet has no hesitation in saying that the only one of the three that I would serve or follow is General Powell.

Cheney, for me was a disaster in his efforts for the Iraq War.

Rush? Didn't he get out of the draft because of a pimple on his ass?


User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 15 hours ago) and read 3148 times:



Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
While I don't agree with him on that, I very much agree with his last statement that "anyone who says they are Republican is a Republican".

Gotta disagree with you here. The party should have some standards. Claiming a title or label for yourself doesn't necessarily make it true. I would like to see the Republican party come out with a clear, concise statement of principles, and a plan as to how they are going to show people that they are right.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
the Republican party has to be a broad party that appeals across the country...

No, it doesn't. It just has to be demonstrably correct in word and deed.



Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (5 years 7 months 14 hours ago) and read 3129 times:



Quoting N867DA (Reply 2):
Perhaps they are waiting for the day when Americans realize that the fundamentalist brand of the GOP was always the right way and there's no need to broaden anything.

You're assuming most people think like the fundamentalist right, and they don't. Most may agree more with the fiscally conservative/more socially moderate wing of the party, not the fundies. So if they GOP wants to go further to the right, they'll only take themesleves into obscurity.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 6):
Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
the Republican party has to be a broad party that appeals across the country...

No, it doesn't.

Actually, they do. More so than what we see in the purge that is currently going on. A party that whittles it down to it's hard-core, uncompromising-on-anything base, will not win elections, let alone function as a viable alternative.


User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13198 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (5 years 7 months 14 hours ago) and read 3128 times:

This is becoming a real mud fest by Cheney and Powell. I despise Cheney but I have problems with Powell not speaking out sooner about the post-9/11 actions as to alleged terrorists including remanding to 3rd party countries to do the dirty work including torture and death of terror suspects. His hands are dirty too.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 6):
I would like to see the Republican party come out with a clear, concise statement of principles, and a plan as to how they are going to show people that they are right

Instead of bashing each other, indeed Republics need to recall what Gingrich and the people around him then did in 1994 - the 'Contract with America', a simple outline of basic legisgative goals and policy of the Republican party. While they didn't accomplish all their goals, it did give them direction on key issues. I am a loyal Democrat but one has to admit is worked to get the Republican party together for many years, until the 2nd GWB term.

Second, Republicans must pour money and support in off-year state election canidates, like for Governors like in New Jersey on a cut taxes, cut spending on the poor, cut state workers, their pay and benefits platform (except for cops, prisons). The middle and upper classes that vote this year on the state level will be strongly be for such a platform and vote for any Republican who takes such stands.

Third they must get Chenney to STFU - he keeps reminding the public, especially independents, of the worst policies of GWB's administration


User currently offlineFreequentFlier From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 902 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (5 years 7 months 14 hours ago) and read 3121 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
I disagree. John McCain was a moderate Republican - to the point that he almost joined the Democratic Party in the past. Obama campaigned as as an extreme liberal, on both social and economic issues. Powell endorsed, campaigned for and voted for Obama, in spite of Obama having not the slightest shred of a Republican agenda. For Powell to say he is a Republican is just stupid - he's a Democrat. Nothing wrong with that, but that's what he is.

I'd have to agree. I could understand if Powell endorsed Obama and then realized the error of his ways once Obama's far-left agenda started taking shape. But there are some "conservatives" (such as Christopher Buckley, Andrew Sullivan, and Powell) who swear to this day that Obama is like them - a conservative.

Which I suppose makes Joseph Stalin a moderate? Obama has simultaneously taken over segments of the car industry, the banking industry, the car dealership industry, the insurance industry, and soon to be the health care industry. Likewise he has proposed regulating the pay of ALL finance executives, not just those receiving TARP money. He's added more to the deficit in 4 months than all previous Presidents COMBINED. I've yet to see one instance where he considered federalism to be anything other than a bothersome idea. If he's a "conservative", then I'm right-handed.

As for Powell suggesting Americans want bigger government and higher taxes these days, none other than Rush Limbaugh was right and Powell was wrong. How do we know this? California, not exactly a ruby red state, just voted overwhelmingly against such tax increases and government expansion just last week. The only proposal that Californians did approve was the one preventing government bureaucrats from voting themselves a raise when the state was in a deficit (touche California!)

I don't want to "purge" (I hate the word frankly) Powell and have no interest in doing so. But I do find it odd that he insists he's a Republican when he doesn't seem to support any of its founding principles any longer - ie limited government, strong national defense, federalism and free enterprise. I suppose that's for him to figure out, but I know the GOP isn't going to abandon those core principles in order to win him over.

Not to mention, as I already pointed out, Colin may be a national hero but he's out of touch not only with the GOP but with the country as a whole, as California just overwhelmingly demonstrated. We did not turn into a socialist country overnight, despite the beliefs of some of Obama's more sycophantic supporters.

I'll always have utmost respect for Colin Powell, and he's a true hero if there ever was one, but he's wrong on this issue of the GOP needing to change to meet his expectations. It's actually the other way around, as California just showed.


User currently offlineFreequentFlier From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 902 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (5 years 7 months 14 hours ago) and read 3118 times:



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 8):
Instead of bashing each other, indeed Republics need to recall what Gingrich and the people around him then did in 1994 - the 'Contract with America', a simple outline of basic legisgative goals and policy of the Republican party. While they didn't accomplish all their goals, it did give them direction on key issues. I am a loyal Democrat but one has to admit is worked to get the Republican party together for many years, until the 2nd GWB term.

Second, Republicans must pour money and support in off-year state election canidates, like for Governors like in New Jersey on a cut taxes, cut spending on the poor, cut state workers, their pay and benefits platform (except for cops, prisons). The middle and upper classes that vote this year on the state level will be strongly be for such a platform and vote for any Republican who takes such stands.

Third they must get Chenney to STFU - he keeps reminding the public, especially independents, of the worst policies of GWB's administration

 checkmark  Pretty much agree with all of this.


User currently offlineFreequentFlier From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 902 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 14 hours ago) and read 3115 times:

Now British banks are threatening to cease serving US clients because of Obama's tax and spend policies:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...revolt-against-Obama-tax-plan.html

"The decision, which would make it hard for Americans in London to open bank accounts and trade shares, is being discussed by executives at Britain's banks and brokers who say it could become too expensive to service American clients. The proposals, which were unveiled as part of the president's first budget, are designed to clamp-down on American tax evaders abroad. However bank bosses say they

are being asked to take on the task of collecting American taxes at a cost and legal liability that are inexpedient.

Andy Thompson of Association of Private Client Investment Managers and Stockbrokers (APCIMS) said: "The cost and administration of the US tax regime is causing UK investment firms to consider disinvesting in US shares on behalf of their clients. This is not right and emphasises that the administration of a tax regime on a global scale without any flexibility damages the very economy it is trying to protect."

One executive at a top UK bank who didn't want to be named for fear of angering the IRS said: "It's just about manageable under the current system - and that's because we're big. The danger to us is suddenly being hauled over the coals by the IRS for a client that hasn't paid proper taxes. The audit costs will soar. We'll have to pay it but I know plenty of smaller players won't."



Just more proof (as if any were needed) that Obama is no conservative. Hell, let's stop pretending he's a moderate. He's the most far-Left President we've ever had in America, by far. FDR looks positively moderate by comparison.

When you're pissing off America's closest ally because of your decisions, the problem isn't them, it's you. Powell referenced Jack Kemp as a conservative he liked. Well I liked Jack Kemp a lot and respected him a lot too. Jack Kemp wouldn't even pretend that Obama was a moderate, let alone call him a conservative.

I do understand Powell's comments though when put in proper context. He's trying to justify his vote for Obama from a right-of-center viewpoint, as are people like Christopher Buckley and Andrew Sullivan. The logic is fairly tortured and the examples of Obama's "conservative" tendencies are so laughable, it's sad they even try.

But make no mistake about it, they ARE trying.


User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (5 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 3111 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 7):
Actually, they do.

It is a matter of being right later verses popular now. Show people that you have the right ideas and will act on them and you will have a far more loyal, durable following than the flashy poll-chasing whores. I am trying to look beyond the next election and see the next 5 or 10.



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User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8289 posts, RR: 26
Reply 13, posted (5 years 7 months 11 hours ago) and read 3090 times:



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 12):
Show people that you have the right ideas and will act on them and you will have a far more loyal, durable following than the flashy poll-chasing whores. I am trying to look beyond the next election and see the next 5 or 10.

That's a fair comment, and with regard to economic policy, will certainly play out in the GOP's favor. Obama is clearly in the wrong on most policies dealing with finance, taxation and rampant federalism and sooner or later even those that voted for him will know it. California voters and the mess they've endured over the last 25 years are proof positive of that.

However, the Cheney-brand foreign policy of expensive wars without meaning and the Tony Perkins-brand of Christian morality being best for all Americans regardless of how diverse the country becomes are not compatible with what the future of the country looks like. A sound conservative economic policy is a must, and a shift toward the middle on social issues is the only way to get Democrats and independents to come along when the time comes. Fail to do the latter and any long-term approach for the GOP is meaningless.

Personally, I hope both parties fail to retain their viability in 10 years' time.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20336 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 1 hour ago) and read 3046 times:



Quoting N867DA (Reply 2):
Perhaps they are waiting for the day when Americans realize that the fundamentalist brand of the GOP was always the right way and there's no need to broaden anything.

I'm assuming this is sarcasm?

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 12):

It is a matter of being right later verses popular now. Show people that you have the right ideas and will act on them and you will have a far more loyal, durable following than the flashy poll-chasing whores. I am trying to look beyond the next election and see the next 5 or 10.

Yes, but the right way is not to simply ignore the economy, start wars to show that we're "Amurrica" and beat people over the head with Bibles.

GOP needs to get off that horse first.


User currently offlineN867DA From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1012 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 7 months 1 hour ago) and read 3043 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
I'm assuming this is sarcasm?

While I meant it to be sarcasm, I think there are prominent people in the party who'd take it literally. Dick Cheney seems like one of them.



A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8954 posts, RR: 24
Reply 16, posted (5 years 7 months 1 hour ago) and read 3043 times:



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
There is plenty of room for General Powell and his moderate, "think for yourself" approach.

Now THAT is sarcasm...

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
Yes, but the right way is not to simply ignore the economy, start wars to show that we're "Amurrica" and beat people over the head with Bibles.

And if you thnk any of that is what we are about, you are simply wrong.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (5 years 7 months 1 hour ago) and read 3040 times:



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 13):
and a shift toward the middle on social issues is the only way to get Democrats and independents to come along when the time comes.

A shift towards the middle of what? The middle of San Francisco or Omaha? Of the Southern Baptists or Universalist Unitarians? This "middle" you speak of is a constantly moving target. Either you have principles that you are trying to win people to, or you are chasing popular opinion. Your economic policies must also be consistent with your social policies, otherwise both come off as phony. A person's priorities are most clearly demonstrated by where they spend their money. The same goes for societies.



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User currently offlineN867DA From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1012 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 7 months ago) and read 3030 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
And if you thnk any of that is what we are about, you are simply wrong.

So what IS the Republican Party about? They're not about conservatism, I'll tell you that. They preach fiscal responsibility while powerless and raid the coffers (although not like Democrats) when they hold the baton.

I've read some of your posts and I understand your general economic message, but there really isn't a party for them. Or should I say, there isn't a party that takes action on those words.



A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7649 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3007 times:



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 11):
One executive at a top UK bank who didn't want to be named for fear of angering the IRS said: "It's just about manageable under the current system - and that's because we're big. The danger to us is suddenly being hauled over the coals by the IRS for a client that hasn't paid proper taxes. The audit costs will soar. We'll have to pay it but I know plenty of smaller players won't."

That's funny, the EU has been pushing it's FTRA agenda for off shore havens to do exactly that for them, what goes around, comes around.

The Republican Party has certainely lost its way, the core message of smaller government and taxes was lost somehwere along with the massive funds diverted to "cronies" via government spending over the last 8 years. What is interesting is how much influence people like Newt has lost in the grand scheme of things.

I think the blood letting will have to go on at least through the next election cycle, the voter reaction will let them know whether they are on the right track or not. A lot of American's are sceptical of the massive spending and government ownership of private business that is currently taking place, but when they look to the other party for guidance what exactly do they see, how many republican governors have led their states into refusing pork barrel federal spending?


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20336 posts, RR: 59
Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2978 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):

And if you thnk any of that is what we are about, you are simply wrong.

Dreadnought, I never thought that's what YOU were about. You and I agree on a lot of things, in spite of our fierce disagreements. I have never known you to consider hate, intolerance, or violence to be a solution to our country's problems.

However, GWB and his pals sure did.

We may disagree on economic policy and we may disagree on points of the Geneva Convention, but you and I seem to be able to agree to disagree.

YOU are the sort of Republican who needs to stand up against this horsedung. Because pretty soon, there won't be room for you in the GOP, either.


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8474 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2971 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
Now THAT is sarcasm...

Actually - no.

Will Rogers said it best when he said that he didn't belong to an organized political party - that he was a Democrat.


Now when people like Powell give up on the Republican Part then both the conservatives and Democrats will be celebrating. I guess you could call that the best of both worlds.


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8289 posts, RR: 26
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2952 times:



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 17):
Either you have principles that you are trying to win people to

That's my point though - the principles shared by the majority of people in what future America looks like are going to be significantly different than what the FRC and others would like the GOP to be pushing for. That can't continue or the party will continue to dwindle with time.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2944 times:



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 22):
That can't continue or the party will continue to dwindle with time.

I would rather that be the case then. A party that will abandon one set of principles in search of popularity will abandon any set of principles. That is not leadership, it is merely weathervaning.



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User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8289 posts, RR: 26
Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2935 times:



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 23):

I would rather that be the case then. A party that will abandon one set of principles in search of popularity will abandon any set of principles. That is not leadership, it is merely weathervaning.

Political pragmatism demands looking for a "middle" whatever it is. You were correct previously in that the middle is a nebulous thing always moving this way or that - but only insofar as society is also moving one way or another. For the GOP or any party to remain relevant, they need to allow for things from the middle while also injecting their principles when and where practical.

Once the dust clears from Obama's cloud of celebrity, it will be difficult for anyone going forward to get elected, much less govern, from any rigid set of principles. America will no longer support such thinking - we are simply too diverse now.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
25 DocLightning : Principles are not a bad thing, but bad principles are a bad thing. A party platform built on upholding discrimination, rising to power on the backs
26 Dreadnought : No question - our politicians in the Republican Party have betrayed our traditionalist party platform, most especially those of limited government in
27 DocLightning : Actually, to tell the truth, I have to agree with you. He's on record as telling a few guys from the Christian Right that he was drawing the line at
28 Mt99 : "We believe that the best of America is in these small towns that we get to visit, and in these wonderful little pockets of what I call the real Amer
29 Dreadnought : A perfect example of why trying to appeal to one group is a mistake - and pointless to boot, when there is no such thing as the National Association
30 Lowrider : But if one has no fixed set of principles, how can one govern effectively? One of the most basic requirement to lead well is to have a set of princip
31 FreequentFlier : We know where Obama's statist and Leftist ideals lead to - if not the bankrupted coffers of California (where voters just rejected a whole host of me
32 Post contains links FreequentFlier : Perhaps Powell should spend a little less time worrying about the GOP (which has zero power to do anything now) and a little more time worrying about
33 Ken777 : Sounds like the hard left liberals some years ago who would always say that they would rather be right than elected. Just as well as they were seldom
34 Klaus : It's called capitalism. Welcome to the less friendly side of your favourite economic principle (bankruptcy of a supplier and loss of services). It is
35 Aaron747 : It has certainly happened before. I seem to recall a Republican Senator from Maine who tried during the Truman administration to take down the Hughes
36 Mt99 : Mr. Joseph. If your dealership was one that provided Dodge financial benefit (as much as the ones that are not being closed), you would still be in b
37 FreequentFlier : Clearly the letter went over both of your heads. As everyone paying attention should realize at this point, Chrysler was taken over by the federal go
38 Post contains images Klaus : Chrysler maneuvered itself into bankruptcy. The state now attempts to distort capitalism (which would simply let it fail completely with no remedy fo
39 Seb146 : IMO, he was given that label by the conservative commentators who hate anyone that is not Republican. Since Republicans hate anyone who has different
40 Post contains links Baroque : Are you sure you have that large a supply of poetic licence Aaron?? They were in the same administration but since 2000 collaboration is putting it a
41 Post contains links FreequentFlier : Love the latest Paul Krugman article: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/25/opinion/25krugman.html?em "But the California precedent still has me rattled.
42 Post contains images Klaus : Other than you trying to change the subject I see little to respond to.
43 FreequentFlier : Well Klaus, earlier I'm told I shouldn't open new threads with posts that are applicable to current threads. Now I'm told I'm changing the subject. To
44 Mt99 : How would letting GM and Chrysler go into bankruptcy save this dealership?[Edited 2009-05-26 09:51:26]
45 FlyPNS1 : The gov't didn't tell Chrysler what dealerships to close down. That was Chrysler's call. Even if the gov't hadn't intervened, the dealerships would h
46 Post contains links FreequentFlier : Well well, the plot has thickened. http://directorblue.blogspot.com/200...rt-did-campaign-contributions.html It appears that the closures were largely
47 Mt99 : Swiss Cheese anyone?
48 Par13del : It would have protected the integrity of the process, once in Chpt. 11, the courts would oversee the proceedings, which are much less prone to "influ
49 Mt99 : Regardless - there is no guarantee that all dealerships would have been saved.
50 FreequentFlier : More evidence from the comments section of the link: "I am the author of the Chrysler Report document on Scribd (additional research online at Scribd)
51 Mt99 : Republican areas no? If you look in CA i am sure that there are closed dealerships that contribute more to Obama. This "person" really need to get a
52 FreequentFlier : Little Rock and Joplin yes, Las Vegas is more blue. Perhaps, but there definitely seems to be an appearance of impropriety here. So far all evidence
53 Cws818 : Gray Davis was elected in 1998 and entered office in 1999. Before then, Pete Wilson was the Republican governor, and he was preceded by George Deukme
54 FreequentFlier : I said 10-15 and you're saying it's 11. So I'm wrong because? I'll correct myself: California is effectively bankrupt because it has been run by liber
55 Mt99 : So out of that list? how many are from Las Vegas? 50% 3% 1% What "evidence"? Evidence does not start with the words: can you add any more doubt to it
56 Cws818 : 1999-2003 does not add up to 10-15 years, nor does it equal 11 years.
57 Lowrider : I would prefer that, because at least we would know what we are voting for or against. Sometimes being right is more important that winning the next
58 Flighty : I think it is so funny that people listen to mass murderer Dick Cheney. He belongs face down on a concrete prison floor. He still refuses to admit tha
59 Dreadnought : Oh man, somebody here has really been working himself up.
60 Flighty : You are right, I have been mad at Mr. Cheney for a number of years now. More to the point, I don't know why people listen to one man who does these t
61 Dreadnought : I happen to have met him. I am close to several people who worked closely with him for years (in the private sector). You might not want to believe t
62 DocLightning : To be honest, I haven't seen the reason for a lot of the vitriol against him. I disagree with him on a number of things, just as I disagree with you,
63 Aaron747 : Perhaps you forget that Cheney was SecDef in Gulf War I and Powell was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs at the same time? Their working relationship goes
64 Post contains links Baroque : I did mention 2000, as I did know of their previous relationship if not quite a love affair! Bearing mind that from the start the differences were ev
65 Aaron747 : I don't think the increasingly open thinking of ever younger generations of Americans is something either temporary or subject to course change. I ma
66 Lowrider : Open thinking need not be liberal, just as closed thinking need not be conservative. It is a false dichotomy.
67 FreequentFlier : Not sure what your point is. As a young conservative/classical liberal myself, I couldn't be more opposed to liberalism in its current state. Why? We
68 Seb146 : Here is something I don't understand: "Liberal Democrats" are in small enclaves, from what I have seen. Orange County, far northern California, San D
69 Aaron747 : Who's talking about that? This thread is about the GOP and my point was that younger people are less and less interested in the changing face of cons
70 FreequentFlier : I blame liberal Democrats for effectively bankrupting California because it has been liberal Democrats that have led California in the legislature du
71 Aaron747 : That is unfairly placed blame. Both parties have had their fair shots at leading the state over the last 25 years and both have failed miserably. As
72 Seb146 : And, I suppose, it was Obama who borrowed hundreds of billions of dollars for war funding while slashing taxes? But, I guess that has nothing to do w
73 Dreadnought : Jeez, man, you keep coming up with that red herring 5 times a day. Obama has spent the entire cost of the Iraq and Afghan wars over the past 8 years
74 Klaus : It can't possibly have had anything to do with these industries running themselves into the ground with their own greed and complacency and the gover
75 Dreadnought : So be it. Let them fail, and the market will come up with alternatives - companies that will buy up the assets and try to revive brands like Oldsmobi
76 FlyPNS1 : If the government is so incompetent, why do conservatives demand MASSIVE spending on the GOVERNMENT-run military? Somehow conservatives believe our g
77 Klaus : And be it with the debris of the collapsing economy when the dominoes keep falling and dragging down each other with accelerating speed. Your recipe
78 Cws818 : Sure markets are able to fill a vacuum, but in the automotive industry, designing and producing products that would fill such a vacuum (and products
79 Dreadnought : That is a rare exception - the defence of the country is one of the few duties the Constitution expressly said was the duty of the Federal Government
80 Post contains images FreequentFlier : Here's my explanation. Take it to the bank:
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