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Tangible Benefits Of Religion?  
User currently offlineSan747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4952 posts, RR: 12
Posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4884 times:

I'm not trying to open a can of worms here. This is a legitimate, respectful question. I am not questioning or maligning anyone's personal beliefs here.

That said, here is my question-

I know that religion has psychological benefits. Religion makes people feel happier, comforted, assured, full of hope. Religion brings people of different backgrounds together and on paper promotes peace and fellowship. I believe that that is an extremely important benefit to society.

But what about tangible services to society? What tangible benefits does religion in general (not any one belief system in particular) provide to society at large?

I mean, for example, churches often provide shelter and help for the homeless and destitute. But that is a service often provided by local municipalities and governments. Churches are a place of comfort and solace and a place to talk to someone who can help you sort out your problems. But you can go to a private or state-funded therapist or psychiatrist to do that as well.

Religious organizations are almost always exempt from paying taxes on the money they bring in. Obviously, our enemy in fundamentalist Islam is religiously motivated.

So my question, COMPLETELY with all due respect, is... what benefits to society do you believe religion in general (or your own particular religion) exclusively provides? In other words, what tangible benefits do religious organizations bestow unto us that no other entity does?

Thank you all and I hope this can be a respectful discussion,
Alex


Scotty doesn't know...
32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIAirAllie From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4876 times:



Quoting San747 (Thread starter):
In other words, what tangible benefits do religious organizations bestow unto us that no other entity does?

I'm not sure why you insist on exclusivity as a qualifier. Lots of institutions aren't exclusive providers their products.

Quoting San747 (Thread starter):
But what about tangible services to society?

Why must the services benefit society to be valid? Though religions do offer many tangible benefits to society.

My religious beliefs provide me the benefit of being forgiven when I screw up and the the ability to learn from my experiences here on earth before returning to my heavenly parents where I will have the opportunity to continue growing and progressing. Everything else I suppose I could find elsewhere (maybe not of the same quality) but truly that is the only benefit that is relevant to me.

If you must use the criteria of tangible, exclusive and of benefit to society then here is my answer... Religious institutions provide society with the option of not being dependent slaves to the government for social services and they tend to do it better than the government anyhow.


User currently offlineSan747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4952 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4872 times:



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 1):
Religious institutions provide society with the option of not being dependent slaves to the government for social services and they tend to do it better than the government anyhow.

That is perfectly reasonable answer. I understand completely.

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 1):

I'm not sure why you insist on exclusivity as a qualifier. Lots of institutions aren't exclusive providers their products.

Because I'm trying to understand what the advantage of religion organizations and facilities are versus governmental/secular options.



Scotty doesn't know...
User currently offlineIAirAllie From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4871 times:



Quoting San747 (Reply 2):
Because I'm trying to understand what the advantage of religion organizations and facilities are versus governmental/secular options.

Exclusivity has nothing to do with the advantages. Quality does.


User currently offlineSan747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4952 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4857 times:



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 3):

Quoting San747 (Reply 2):
Because I'm trying to understand what the advantage of religion organizations and facilities are versus governmental/secular options.

Exclusivity has nothing to do with the advantages. Quality does.

That is true. What I am trying to ask, in other words, is what does the option of say, going to a minister for advice about a problem in your life offer compared to going to a psychiatrist or private therapist for example?

If quality is the issue, then by all means, my question changes to why is the religious option better?

Once again, I ask this in the spirit not of questioning or maligning or ridiculing anyone's beliefs. I ask this because I am genuinely curious.



Scotty doesn't know...
User currently offlineFr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5599 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4845 times:

I'm not sure I can answer this to your satisfaction because I don't believe that religions offer very many tangible benefits, exclusively. A religion duplicates or supplements many functions of government (some would say government has no or limited business in these areas, a debate for another thread).

The main benefit of religion, in my eyes, are the intangibles that you mentioned. But a person who is comforted by his belief may be a more productive member of society. That fact may provide a tangible benefit to society...or it may not.

Quoting San747 (Reply 4):
That is true. What I am trying to ask, in other words, is what does the option of say, going to a minister for advice about a problem in your life offer compared to going to a psychiatrist or private therapist for example?

A person may not feel comfortable talking to a clinician about a personal issue, but their pastor often is someone they have grown up with and are comfortable with. To the religious, the setting is as important as the content.

The answer to your question will prove ellusive because the answer would be different for each person and would depend on their level or depth of religious commitment.

Myself, for instance, I am not a particularly religious person, but when I attend a service in a Greek Orthodox church, I am comforted. I leave with a sense of calm and solace. Maybe it is because the services bring back memories of my childhood. When I attend a Roman Catholic service (my wife and kids are Roman Catholic) I don't feel 'it'.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8601 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4844 times:
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Quoting San747 (Thread starter):
I know that religion has psychological benefits. Religion makes people feel happier, comforted, assured, full of hope.



with respect I think that your sentences might be more correctly phrased as follow :

' I believe that religion has psychological benefits for some people . Religion makes some people feel happier , comforted , assured , full of hope' .

While I do not deny that religion has helped many people there are also many people for whom it has been a source of nothing but pain . I used to be a counsellor a number of years ago and I have heard the other side of religion , I have listened to anguished calls from people who have been disowned by their families due to religion , and in some cases threatened with death due to religion , as well as calls from people who took great comfort in their faith in times of trial .

Religions in themselves are in my opinion neither intrinsically good nor intrinsically bad , it is how the adherents choose to use or mis-use those religions which has a positive or negative effect on us all so neither the tangible benefits , nor the tangible downsides are inherent , they all exist on a case by case basis



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineSan747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4952 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4838 times:



Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 5):
To the religious, the setting is as important as the content.

Interesting. I never really thought of that.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 5):


Myself, for instance, I am not a particularly religious person, but when I attend a service in a Greek Orthodox church, I am comforted. I leave with a sense of calm and solace. Maybe it is because the services bring back memories of my childhood. When I attend a Roman Catholic service (my wife and kids are Roman Catholic) I don't feel 'it'.

I do understand this... I'm not religious at all, but I have no problem attending a service at the Episcopal church that my family occasionally attends for basically the same reason you mentioned. It was a part of my childhood and a familiar setting for me.

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 6):

Oh absolutely. I personally know that religion has been a source of pain, stress and anguish for some friends of mine. I live in suburban Southern California, which is probably the most religious area of the US outside of the Bible Belt, and a lot of people I know are either completely devoted to their particular form of Christianity (most often non-denominational) or have doubts, but don't voice them because they fear being disowned by family and friends alike.



Scotty doesn't know...
User currently offlineLewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3671 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4822 times:

I do not consider myself a religious person and have nothing against religion, its just organized religion that I do not like.

Of course religion has helped many people but it has also destroyed the lives of many more. Throughout the years, the church has hunted down, tortured, persecuted and killed hundreds of thousands and started wars in the name of religion or beliefs that were abolished when indisputedly proven wrong (ie. the world is flat, dinosaurs do not exist etc.)

In Greece we hear how the church has always helped Greeks in time of need, but only when the church itself was threatened (ie. the church helped the revolution against Muslim Ottomans but stayed indifferent and even supportive towards all dictatorships that plagued us afterwards). Nowdays there are people from the church visiting terminally ill people and offer them eternal salvation in exchange for transferring all wealth and properties to the church. That just makes me sick.

The fact that many christians believe they are virtuous just because they visit the church daily but at the same time are selfish, greedy and indifferent towards their fellow citizens makes me doubt the effects religion has and how it improves us as people.

For me, a non-religious person, organized religion is just a very good business model for a business that operates tax free and has gathered a tremendous amount of wealth. Even the help they provide both domestically and around the world is far from selfless, it comes with a price; join us and we will help you.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21495 posts, RR: 53
Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4799 times:



Quoting San747 (Thread starter):
I know that religion has psychological benefits. Religion makes people feel happier, comforted, assured, full of hope. Religion brings people of different backgrounds together and on paper promotes peace and fellowship. I believe that that is an extremely important benefit to society.

The exact same things can be true for membership in your local chapter of the free thinkers society, gardening club or all kinds of other community, completely besides and without religion.

Humans inherently tend to form communities. And the nonreligious ones can provide the same benefits as religious ones, just in most cases without the massive collateral damage religions tend to cause through fanaticism and enforced conformity.

The claim of exclusively being in possession of the secret of happiness most religions make is a scam – in fact happiness is free and to be had by absolutely anybody at absolutely any time. And at least in the free world the loss of actual power of the religious organisations has freed more and more people to pursue happiness on their own terms.


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8219 posts, RR: 26
Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4739 times:



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 1):
My religious beliefs provide me the benefit of being forgiven when I screw up

I assure you, if you pilot an aircraft as a low-time GA pilot without adequate training into IFR conditions and end up yet another stall/spin accident victim, you deserved to die and no amount of religious fervor will forgive, much less save you.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 5):
But a person who is comforted by his beliefs may be a more productive member of society.

I think this is absolutely true and by far the most tangible benefit to society.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineIAirAllie From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4715 times:



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 10):

I assure you, if you pilot an aircraft as a low-time GA pilot without adequate training into IFR conditions and end up yet another stall/spin accident victim, you deserved to die and no amount of religious fervor will forgive, much less save you.

That has nothing to do with forgiveness.  Yeah sure You obviously do not get the concept. Forgiveness isn't some kind of magic that saves you from physical harm whether or not you are responsible for the situation that put you into harm. Forgiveness isn't a physical concept in religion it is a spiritual one.


User currently offlineDc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2299 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4684 times:

I believe *religion* has no benefits. However, spirituality does.

The difference? Go to a typical US church, more or less voluntarily donate 10% of your income, listen to the typical "do this, don't do that or burn in hell" versus being at one with nature, understanding everything there is to understand.

To me, a church has nothing to do with god/God whatsoever. I believe that while churches might offer shelter/aid, they bring nothing to the world. Plus, were we all to have been Christian, we'd have no TVs, no aircraft and our living standards would be much lower*. And the church would give us clothes for free, making it seem like the greatest thing ever. Most of the inventors, while not necessarily directly opposed to religion, found religion irrelevant. Those who could do so, remained spiritual, but non-religious. Think of Einstein, for example. Spirituality, which I define as a communion with nature/everything, is truly beneficial, whereas organized religion is nothing.

*I mean this more as a metaphor, it's not necessarily those things we wouldn't have.

Frankly, I think going back to 'traditional' religions would do us all a favor... Christianity, Islam, Judaism are, in my opinion, 'fake'. They have no connection to Earth. Thus, no tangible benefits at all.


User currently offlineTheCol From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 2039 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4646 times:



Quoting San747 (Thread starter):
I mean, for example, churches often provide shelter and help for the homeless and destitute. But that is a service often provided by local municipalities and governments. Churches are a place of comfort and solace and a place to talk to someone who can help you sort out your problems. But you can go to a private or state-funded therapist or psychiatrist to do that as well.

The potential for these services being rendered by the church/private religious organizations is much greater than what the government can offer. I strongly believe that the church should take the burden for caring for the people of our society that cannot care for themselves (ie. provide food, clothing, shelter/protection, and support services) in the proper way according to our faith (ie. no strings attached). Many religious organizations already do this, such as Samaritan's Purse (Operation Christmas Child) and Alcoholics Anonymous. I believe that the religious community can do a lot more.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 10):
I assure you, if you pilot an aircraft as a low-time GA pilot without adequate training into IFR conditions and end up yet another stall/spin accident victim, you deserved to die and no amount of religious fervor will forgive, much less save you.

I don't know if "deserve" is the right word, though each individual will still have to face the consequences of his/her actions.



No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20191 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4639 times:



Quoting San747 (Thread starter):

So my question, COMPLETELY with all due respect, is... what benefits to society do you believe religion in general (or your own particular religion) exclusively provides? In other words, what tangible benefits do religious organizations bestow unto us that no other entity does?

I see none. As a charitable institution, religions are very inefficient because they have too much overhead. They spend too much donated money on their own operations and this hurts their charitable activities. The same can be said about just about any other service provided by a religious institution.

The only tangible benefit I see of religion is that they do provide a social networking system. But then again, so do many other things...


User currently onlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3399 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4615 times:



Quoting San747 (Thread starter):
I know that religion has psychological benefits. Religion makes people feel happier, comforted, assured, full of hope. Religion brings people of different backgrounds together and on paper promotes peace and fellowship. I believe that that is an extremely important benefit to society.

It does this for some people and makes them feel happier, as more hopeful. However I have seen a lot of preachers tell their followers that you MUST do these things or you will be a sinner and therefore a failure in life and bring up the idea of repentance on the side.

Along with this many things are not actually in the bible or exaggerated to make people far more scared. An example of this is a preacher telling me at one time that simply thinking about sex outside of marriage is equal to the sin of actually performing this action, something no one can do. Or equating sins which I can't stand as lying is not equivalent to killing someone. Also religion id designed on the fact that the holy word in final and there isn't room for debate or questioning the teachings.

The worst thing that this does is it makes the people who fail feel like they are going to hell and make the ones who succeed smug and arrogant about it.

This is my biggest criticism of religion besides the fact that it does far more to encourage violence than deter it.

Quoting San747 (Thread starter):
I mean, for example, churches often provide shelter and help for the homeless and destitute. But that is a service often provided by local municipalities and governments. Churches are a place of comfort and solace and a place to talk to someone who can help you sort out your problems. But you can go to a private or state-funded therapist or psychiatrist to do that as well.

Churches do many good things as you have said but there is no evidence to suggest you need church to do these things. Also some churches will actually only give you aid if you in return become a believer where as someone who is an atheist is not likely going to have this conditional aid attached to it.

Where as in the reverse Good people will do good things and Bad people will do bad things but to get a Good person to do a bad thing you need religion.

Quoting San747 (Thread starter):

So my question, COMPLETELY with all due respect, is... what benefits to society do you believe religion in general (or your own particular religion) exclusively provides? In other words, what tangible benefits do religious organizations bestow unto us that no other entity does?

It does good for the ones who believe in it but as long as they keep it to themselves then I am fine with it. However this often doesn't happen as religious groups are like a lot of demographics and they want power.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offline757GB From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 676 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4507 times:

This is never an easy topic. Not all religions are the same obviously, and giving an opinion about religion in general is bound to be inaccurate in some cases. We can have huge lists of good things related to religions, and just as big a list of negatives.

Now in my opinion, tangible does not necessarily mean material, which is the aspect discussed here for the most part. What I would call a well understood religion is one which makes the person grow spiritually, mostly by providing meaning and purpose in life. Through that growth that person is able to favorably affect the environment around him/her. Depending on what that environment is, that effect can actually be huge. It might not be measured in material terms but it's surely real enough for the people who live it.



God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21495 posts, RR: 53
Reply 17, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4499 times:



Quoting 757GB (Reply 16):
Now in my opinion, tangible does not necessarily mean material

Actually, that's exactly what it means - literally!

Quoting 757GB (Reply 16):
What I would call a well understood religion is one which makes the person grow spiritually, mostly by providing meaning and purpose in life. Through that growth that person is able to favorably affect the environment around him/her. Depending on what that environment is, that effect can actually be huge. It might not be measured in material terms but it's surely real enough for the people who live it.

None of that is dependent on actual religion. All of that applies to secular philosophies as well, if not more so in many cases.

I personally like the ring parable from Lessing's Nathan the wise a lot, which basically says:

"It is ultimately irrelevant what exactly you believe, as long as you help making the world a better place!"


User currently offline757GB From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 676 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4490 times:

From:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tangible

Tangible:

1 a: capable of being perceived especially by the sense of touch : palpable b: substantially real : material
2: capable of being precisely identified or realized by the mind -her grief was tangible
3: capable of being appraised at an actual or approximate value -tangible assets
synonyms see perceptible

Basically I'm referring to the second interpretation, though I understand most people are referring to the third.

I'm not saying that the only way to achieve spiritual growth is through religion.
What I am saying however is that a good religion does tend to have that effect on people when understood.

Making the world a better place can take many forms. At the personal level it will depend on your set of beliefs or your philosophy. Once again I'm not saying the way I'm describing is the only way by any means, but it's certainly real enough.



God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21495 posts, RR: 53
Reply 19, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4484 times:



Quoting 757GB (Reply 18):
Basically I'm referring to the second interpretation, though I understand most people are referring to the third.

I don't really insist on everybody splitting the same hair the exact the same way I do.  cool 

Quoting 757GB (Reply 18):
I'm not saying that the only way to achieve spiritual growth is through religion.
What I am saying however is that a good religion does tend to have that effect on people when understood.

Which makes the distinction moot, since it is not actually a feature of religion but applies to secular philosophies just as well. So it's not actually a benefit of religion.

And that is not hair splitting but really at the core of this question.


User currently offline757GB From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 676 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4479 times:



Quoting Klaus (Reply 19):

Understood, however there are many cases (again depending on the person or the community) where religion makes a tangible difference for the better where secular philosophies have not. How that happens is what I tried to explain before.



God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21495 posts, RR: 53
Reply 21, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4478 times:



Quoting 757GB (Reply 20):
Understood, however there are many cases (again depending on the person or the community) where religion makes a tangible difference for the better where secular philosophies have not.

Not every philosophy or religion has the same effect on everybody, so unless all of them had been tried, no real conclusion is possible.

There is some neutral research into this matter, and it has found no difference between religious and non-religious people apart from formal or superficial ones. Interestingly, they also found no significant differences in their moral behaviour, only in the way people rationalized their behaviour to themselves.

So far the conclusion seems to be that religion merely uses parts of the brain which are accessible without religion just as well.


User currently offlineSan747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4952 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4469 times:



Quoting 757GB (Reply 16):

Now in my opinion, tangible does not necessarily mean material,

Interesting. I've never looked at it that way.

Quoting 757GB (Reply 16):
Through that growth that person is able to favorably affect the environment around him/her. Depending on what that environment is, that effect can actually be huge.

Though I am not religious, I agree with this. Though I do also agree with Klaus and others that this effect is not necessarily exclusively generated by religious belief, a certain of amount of it absolutely is.



Scotty doesn't know...
User currently offlineAF340 From Canada, joined Jul 2007, 2786 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4461 times:



Quoting Lewis (Reply 8):
In Greece we hear how the church has always helped Greeks in time of need, but only when the church itself was threatened

The Church does far more for humanity than you refer to. The Church was one of the first organizations to start helping HIV/AIDS victims in Africa. They were there far before North Americans started dying and the world started to care. This wasn't done to further their own cause, but to help those in need.

Quoting Dc9northwest (Reply 12):
believe that while churches might offer shelter/aid, they bring nothing to the world. Plus, were we all to have been Christian, we'd have no TVs, no aircraft and our living standards would be much lower*. And the church would give us clothes for free, making it seem like the greatest thing ever. Most of the inventors, while not necessarily directly opposed to religion, found religion irrelevant. Those who could do so, remained spiritual, but non-religious. Think of Einstein, for example. Spirituality, which I define as a communion with nature/everything, is truly beneficial, whereas organized religion is nothing

No churches haven't brought anything to the world.  Yeah sure

Western law is based on Judeo-Christian values -- something directly correlated with the Church. Church has provided the world with so much - science isn't everything...


Liam


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21495 posts, RR: 53
Reply 24, posted (5 years 5 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4433 times:



Quoting San747 (Reply 22):
Though I do also agree with Klaus and others that this effect is not necessarily exclusively generated by religious belief, a certain of amount of it absolutely is.

For you it may be, but the same benefits can be had for others without religion.

Quoting AF340 (Reply 23):
Western law is based on Judeo-Christian values -- something directly correlated with the Church. Church has provided the world with so much - science isn't everything...

Science is just one component of the much larger movement of secular enlightenment which actually is the basis of all modern liberal societies. In many respects we're much closer to the ancient philosophers than to church doctrine.

Religion had its sway up to the renaissance, and it wasn't a particularly positive influence all in all. The Inquisition, the crusades and various other occasions come to mind.

It took the secularization and enlightenment movements to force religion to accept its values, and not without stubborn resistance. Even today religious interference is often negative (see recent campaigns for enforced intolerance).


25 757GB : Thanks for the open mind. I believe we are in agreement. I'm not trying to separate the waters and say that religion is the only way to generate the
26 Dc9northwest : May I remind you about the whole Papal controversy on Africa, poverty, AIDS and condoms? Yeah, the church is (also) about aid, but it gives no regard
27 757GB : That's a pretty big statement. I understand where you're coming from, but I think saying that is very unfair to millions of Christians who live by th
28 San747 : Actually, I'm not religious at all. Honestly, I'm trying to be diplomatic here!
29 Post contains images Klaus : So noted. I still stand by my point.
30 FLY2HMO : Aside from a few humanitarian activities, It's pretty much none in my eyes. Many if not all religions seem to me as they make people worry too much o
31 YOWza : If you're Benny Hinn religion has brought you lots of tangible benefits. YOWza
32 AF340 : Well, in his religion the only tangible benefits are empty pockets! Liam
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