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Obama To Israel - No (= No!) More Settlements  
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4497 times:

I've been watching Israel ruin itself by its unreasonably-aggressive tactics ever since 1956. But I've never doubted that, sooner or later, a US President would call their bluff and say, "Enough is enough - get in line....!"

Looks like it's finally happening:-

"US President Barack Obama has drawn a line on Israeli settlement expansion before he meets today with Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas as part of his urgent quest to revive peace talks.

"Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Obama made it clear, when Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu visited here last week, that he wants “no natural growth exceptions” to his call for a settlement freeze.

"The remarks - which a former US official called “almost unprecedented” in toughness toward ally Israel - amounted to another challenge to Netanyahu, who has already balked at Obama's call for a Palestinian state."


http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...tory/0,25197,25550664-2703,00.html

Must admit to being vastly relieved; and lost in admiration for Obama's courage. Not only will this 'tough line' restore the reputation of the United States for 'fair dealing' - it will vastly improve prospects for world peace and an end to terrorism.

And, in addition, I'm convinced that it is the very best thing that could happen for the people of Israel, too. They simply cannot hope to enjoy any real 'quality of life' if they remain in a constant 'state of war' with all their neighbours.


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
70 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21406 posts, RR: 54
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4483 times:

Of course it remains to be seen how consistent this position will be in practice, but it does indeed look like a long overdue decision.

In some ways it could actually strengthen Netanyahu's position opposite his fanatical coalition partners, even though he himself would probably prefer to maintain the old course.

But as far as I know the settlements of religious fanatics are basically financed by US aid. Especially now in the difficult economic environment they are an economic luxury causing severe and far-reaching political, security and human rights problems on top.

Hamas, Hezbollah and Al Qaida have been drawing a lot of energy from the settlements and the accompanying policies. Nothing would satisfy me more than seeing their political resources dwindling and drying out (as well as the nutcase settlers being forced to face reality).


User currently offlineIgneousRocks From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4475 times:



Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter):
Must admit to being vastly relieved; and lost in admiration for Obama's courage. Not only will this 'tough line' restore the reputation of the United States for 'fair dealing' - it will vastly improve prospects for world peace and an end to terrorism.

Yea, the North Koreans - on seeing this potential 'development' have decided to disarm. What about a tough line on the Palestinian thugs? Even with their own 'state' terrorism will still be bred in this particular middle east hot spot.

Quoting NAV20 (Thread starter):
They simply cannot hope to enjoy any real 'quality of life' if they remain in a constant 'state of war' with all their neighbours.

Well, it's their neighbor who is/was lobbing rockets - unprovoked - into Israel, not vice-versa.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4470 times:

You're entitled to your opinion, IgneousRocks. Maybe we can just 'agree to differ'?  Smile


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineOffloaded From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 871 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4458 times:



Quoting IgneousRocks (Reply 2):
Well, it's their neighbor who is/was lobbing rockets - unprovoked - into Israel, not vice-versa

This is true, but you've got to start somewhere. Or restart for the umpteenth time. Who did what and to whom and when is what's kept this conflict going for the last 60 years.



To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
User currently offlineYellowstone From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3071 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4412 times:



Quoting IgneousRocks (Reply 2):
Well, it's their neighbor who is/was lobbing rockets - unprovoked - into Israel, not vice-versa.

Some might consider the occupation of your territory by a foreign power provocation enough, not to mention other aspects of Israel's poor treatment of the Palestinians.



Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4400 times:

Or then again a plague on both houses and the bystanders??

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1086355.html
Over the years, Washington and the world have coddled both Israel and the Palestinians, whose behavior has come to resemble that of spoiled children.
.....
As with parents who become more and more indulgent the more clueless they realize they actually are - and the more out of control their kids get - Washington and the world have allowed Israel and the Palestinians both to run off the rails in whatever direction they happen to see fit at the moment.

Why? For the same reason that bad parents spoil their children:

They're afraid of them.
......
The result, for Israel, has been an unaddressed clash with its own future, as the number of Arabs living in Israel and the West Bank continues to rise, and Gaza continues to seethe, with no solution remotely in sight.

The consequence, for Palestinians, has been the self-immolation of their movement for independent statehood, and, in blaming the occupation for all ills, an acquired, abject incapability to alter for the better a tragic present.


A good article, nothing new, but an elegant summary.

I suspect that Israel has lost the chance for two states and will have to figure how to be in a minority and resist the pressure for majority government. You would think the fear of that would get it to make haste on other solutions, but nothing much so far????

And the article ends with:
[i]With the perspective of the spoiled child, Ben-Artzi continued that at a time when there was a new Hitler in Tehran, threatening to annihilate the Jews, all the questions of an Israeli-Palestinian peace, two-states, settlements, Jerusalem and the like, should be put aside altogether as "nonsense."

"When you've got cancer," he said, "you don't bother yourself with a scratch on the foot."

And what of Israel's crucial ally, Washington? According to Ben-Artzi, Israel should feel free to attack Iran on its own, even if America is against it. "After the big war with Iran, we'll talk."[i/]

When would after the big war be? Around 2050?


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19400 posts, RR: 58
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4375 times:



Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 5):

Some might consider the occupation of your territory by a foreign power provocation enough, not to mention other aspects of Israel's poor treatment of the Palestinians.

Yup. I agree. As a Jew, I find the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians to be...well... not much better than our own care as guests of the Nazis. Ethnic Ghettos, firing rockets into them, making them live in the middle ages while Jews live in the 21st century... No wonder the Palestinians have a lot of angry young men who are ready to suicide bomb the Israelis. The only thing the Israelis are neglecting to do at this point is ship them into concentration camps.


User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4316 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
The only thing the Israelis are neglecting to do at this point is ship them into concentration camps.

Gaza by itself is one big concentration camp.



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19400 posts, RR: 58
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4260 times:



Quoting BA (Reply 8):

Gaza by itself is one big concentration camp.

No, it's a ghetto. A concentration camp is a constructed facility where people are forcibly placed and imprisoned. Let's not fall to hyperbole.


User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4221 times:



Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 5):
Some might consider the occupation of your territory by a foreign power provocation enough, not to mention other aspects of Israel's poor treatment of the Palestinians.

Israel still occupies Gaza? You must have been asleep for the Summer of 2005.

Quoting BA (Reply 8):
Gaza by itself is one big concentration camp.



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
As a Jew, I find the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians to be...well... not much better than our own care as guests of the Nazis.

Right. Because Israel is systematically exterminating Palestinians, right? Millions of Muslims have been killed by Israel, right? Oh, that's right, millions of Muslims have been killed by...oh, wait, Muslims! But that too must be Israel's fault...

On a side note, I never understand when gays don't support Israel--try going to Palestinian areas with your boyfriends DocLightning and Yellowstone.


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4219 times:



Quoting IgneousRocks (Reply 2):
Yea, the North Koreans - on seeing this potential 'development' have decided to disarm. What about a tough line on the Palestinian thugs? Even with their own 'state' terrorism will still be bred in this particular middle east hot spot.

Yea really not to mention that Abbas is a joke, he is not calling the shots and his presidency is a joke.

Who is going to help with Hamas?


More fluff and empty rhetoric by Obama.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21406 posts, RR: 54
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4205 times:



Quoting RJpieces (Reply 10):
On a side note, I never understand when gays don't support Israel--try going to Palestinian areas with your boyfriends DocLightning and Yellowstone.

That's false advertising.

Recent attempts to hold a gay pride parade in Jerusalem were quashed by a thoroughly unholy alliance of jewish, islamic and christian clerics alike who all advocated - and got - continued discrimination.  yuck 


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19400 posts, RR: 58
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4194 times:



Quoting RJpieces (Reply 10):

Right. Because Israel is systematically exterminating Palestinians, right? Millions of Muslims have been killed by Israel, right? Oh, that's right, millions of Muslims have been killed by...oh, wait, Muslims! But that too must be Israel's fault...

Actually, Israel has killed many Palestinians. The situation is complicated, including children caught in crossfire, innocent families who happened to be living near launch sites used by terrorists, etc. However, Israel has launched rockets into Palestinian areas that are occupied by civilians.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 10):

On a side note, I never understand when gays don't support Israel--try going to Palestinian areas with your boyfriends DocLightning and Yellowstone.

I wouldn't try it. However, the fact that their culture is not accepting of gays doesn't mean that I should support Israel's behavior. If a gay group tried to bomb the Mormon Temple, I wouldn't support that, either.

The Holocaust was over half a century ago. It was horrible, but that is not justification to engage in the same behaviors against our own enemies.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21406 posts, RR: 54
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4186 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
The Holocaust was over half a century ago. It was horrible, but that is not justification to engage in the same behaviors against our own enemies.

I suspect that it's in some way psychologically related to abused people often become abusive themselves, basically the expulsion and the cruelty towards the people living in Palestine being an echo of the Holocaust, with the palestinian terrorism being a secondary echo yet again.

These things don't just stop by themselves, they fester and propagate like an infectious disease if they aren't countered by something more enlightened than violence.


User currently offlineStasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3280 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4168 times:

For all the diplomatic mumbling of a "special relationship" between the United States and Israel, it's clear to me that there's nothing really special about the U.S. support for the Israeli government or rejection of Palestinian rights. American policymakers are not really concerned about peace. Instead, the primary aim of U.S. policy in the Middle East has been the U.S. dominance over the region and its OIL resources for the past 60 years, through support for abusive regimes in several ME nations that play our game and support the ever-increasing U.S. military presence, and buy our high-tech weapons.

But U.S. policy is simply NOT driven by unquestioned support for Israel. Any real lasting peace requires ditching this historical rhetoric to face the reality of U.S. overall MIddle East policy. The centerpiece of every U.S. administration since Eisenhower has been that the OIL resources of the region do not truly belong to the people of the region, but instead exist for the economic benefit of United States.

It is not simply a question of who owns the oil, but who controls oil resources and oil profits. Even if the United States were energy self-sufficient, the U.S. would seek to dominate the Middle East to keep its leverage over the economies of our primary competitors (Western Europe and Japan), which are becoming more and more dependent on Middle Eastern oil.

[Edited 2009-05-28 17:12:29]


"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineN229NW From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1937 posts, RR: 32
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4134 times:



Quoting RJpieces (Reply 10):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
As a Jew, I find the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians to be...well... not much better than our own care as guests of the Nazis.

Right. Because Israel is systematically exterminating Palestinians, right? Millions of Muslims have been killed by Israel, right?

Whereas Israel comparing Iran to "another Hitler" (which they've tried to do multiple times and now are using it to totally sabotage any discussion of the settlements or even a two-state solution) is totally a proper analogy, right RJPieces?  sarcastic  Because Iran is systematically exterminating Jews, right? Oh, wait. They aren't even killing the Jews who live in Tehran. So much for that.

Look. Can't BOTH SIDES stop with the Holocaust analogies? They don't do anything for anyone's arguments, because they make it so easy to poke holes in the comparison.

Other than that, I pretty much agree with everything DocLightning has written on this thread.

I hope that the Obama administration sticks to its guns and finally plays honest broker here.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 11):
Yea really not to mention that Abbas is a joke

Sadly, Abbas had (has) the potential to be one of the best leaders the Palestinians have had. It is just that Israel and the US have done everything possible to castrate him by making impossible demands on him without acknowledging his own needs and demands so that he cannot control the splinter groups without appearing as a traitor and Hamas gains power.



It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3416 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4114 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting RJpieces (Reply 10):
Millions of Muslims have been killed by Israel, right? Oh, that's right, millions of Muslims have been killed by...oh, wait, Muslims

Where did you get those numbers from?



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineYellowstone From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3071 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4110 times:



Quoting RJpieces (Reply 10):
Millions of Muslims have been killed by Israel, right? Oh, that's right, millions of Muslims have been killed by...oh, wait, Muslims!

What the heck do generic Muslims have to do with this? If you want to make a relevant comparison, you should look at the number of Palestinians killed by Israel.



Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
User currently offlineFreequentFlier From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 893 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4103 times:



Quoting Klaus (Reply 12):
That's false advertising.

Recent attempts to hold a gay pride parade in Jerusalem were quashed by a thoroughly unholy alliance of jewish, islamic and christian clerics alike who all advocated - and got - continued discrimination. yuck

Yes, and in Palestine, gays who publicly reveal themselves are killed. Which is pretty much the same thing, right Klaus?  Yeah sure

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
The Holocaust was over half a century ago. It was horrible, but that is not justification to engage in the same behaviors against our own enemies.


And right now Iran has a President who literally denies the Holocaust and talks of "eliminating" Israel repeatedly while pursuing a nuclear bomb. And to equate Israel's legitimate right to self-defense (since it's civilians were repeatedly and DELIBERATELY targeted for death with suicide bombers aboard buses) to the Holocaust is absolutely disgusting and you should be ashamed of yourself for asserting it. I'm not the least bit surprised to see you're from San Francisco, probably Berkeley right? What you just said passes for "intellect" there.

Which again is ironic because Israel has the most lively gay culture in the Middle East by far (and I have gay friends who would happily tell you the same thing). I dare you to proudly proclaim you're gay in the West Bank. See where that gets you.

Even though I often disagree with you Doc, I do have a lot of respect for you. But if you continue to assert that Israel's legitimate right to self defense and the actions it takes to do so is akin to the Holocaust, I can't respect that at all. Lame. Try putting down that piece of shit Noam Chomsky book and read an actual history book about the conflict.  Yeah sure  Yeah sure  Yeah sure


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4099 times:

Some interesting further information in this Haaretz article:-

"Earlier Wednesday, an Israeli official said that the American administration shows no signs of backing down from its demands that Israel totally freeze settlement growth in the West Bank and open the Gaza border terminals to allow the rebuilding of the Strip.

"These conclusions were drawn from talks held in London on Tuesday by Intelligence and Atomic Energy Minister Dan Meridor and advisers to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu with American diplomats, led by U.S. special envoy George Mitchell.

"According to the official, the Israeli side claimed in the talks that construction in settlements must be allowed to continue, due to natural growth. They suggested construction be limited to the existing outlines of the settlements, and to define in advance areas in which such construction will be authorized. They also said the demand of Israel to completely freeze the settlement construction was out of order, as the Palestinians have failed to fulfill their part in the first phase of the road map, in particular in combating terrorism.

"The American side did not agree to the Israeli suggestions, and in addition to the settlement issue, repeatedly brought up the matter of opening the Gaza terminals to aid and construction materials necessary for rebuilding the Strip."


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1088799.html

I personally find the use of the word 'demands - 'The American administration........demands that Israel totally freeze settlement growth in the West Bank and open the Gaza border terminals......' most refreshing. Leaves Israel with no wriggle room at all. George Mitchell is an old hand at negotiating with Israel, he's suffered the runaround before...........

[Edited 2009-05-28 20:48:46]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4067 times:



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 19):
Even though I often disagree with you Doc, I do have a lot of respect for you. But if you continue to assert that Israel's legitimate right to self defense and the actions it takes to do so is akin to the Holocaust, I can't respect that at all.

I do wish folk would stop making wild assertions about what not even the 2ic in Iran says or more commonly does not say.

1. If you can work out that he denies the Holocaust you must be really good at reading tealeaves. What he does seem to say is that the events associated with the late and unlamented regime in the 3rd Reich have been used to leverage advantage in Palestine and elsewhere.

2. He thinks that Israel should never have been planted in the midst of Palestine. He does not say that Israel should be wiped off the map, with or without a face. He argues that Israel should not have been placed there and says he thinks it cannot survive. This last is quite interesting as it starts to converge on what you can read in many comments about the Palestinian problem that if Israel does not rapidly accept a two state solution (more or less the subject of this thread) it will end up with a one state solution and Jews will form a minority in that state. Only other options are a pogrom worth of Adolf or lesser rights for the majority.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12790.htm

Does Iran's President Want Israel Wiped Off The Map - Does He Deny The Holocaust?

An analysis of media rhetoric on its way to war against Iran - Commenting on the alleged statements of Iran's President Ahmadinejad .


Does Iran's President wants Israel wiped off the map?
The POPULAR VIEW:

iTo raze Israel to the ground, to batter down, to destroy, to annihilate, to liquidate, to erase Israel, to wipe it off the map - this is what Iran's President demanded - at least this is what we read about or heard of at the end of October 2005. Spreading the news was very effective. This is a declaration of war they said. Obviously government and media were at one with their indignation. It goes around the world.

What he actually said and some comment:
"They say it is not possible to have a world without the United States and Zionism. But you know that this is a possible goal and slogan. Let's take a step back. [[[We had a hostile regime in this country which was undemocratic, armed to the teeth and, with SAVAK, its security apparatus of SAVAK [the intelligence bureau of the Shah of Iran's government] watched everyone. An environment of terror existed.]]] When our dear Imam [Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the founder of the Iranian revolution] said that the regime must be removed, many of those who claimed to be politically well-informed said it was not possible. All the corrupt governments were in support of the regime when Imam Khomeini started his movement. [[[All the Western and Eastern countries supported the regime even after the massacre of September 7 [1978] ]]] and said the removal of the regime was not possible. But our people resisted and it is 27 years now that we have survived without a regime dependent on the United States. The tyranny of the East and the West over the world should have to end, but weak people who can see only what lies in front of them cannot believe this. Who would believe that one day we could witness the collapse of the Eastern Empire? But we could watch its fall in our lifetime. And it collapsed in a way that we have to refer to libraries because no trace of it is left. Imam [Khomeini] said Saddam must go and he said he would grow weaker than anyone could imagine. Now you see the man who spoke with such arrogance ten years ago that one would have thought he was immortal, is being tried in his own country in handcuffs and shackles [[[by those who he believed supported him and with whose backing he committed his crimes]]]. Our dear Imam said that the occupying regime must be wiped off the map and this was a very wise statement. We cannot compromise over the issue of Palestine. Is it possible to create a new front in the heart of an old front. This would be a defeat and whoever accepts the legitimacy of this regime [Israel] has in fact, signed the defeat of the Islamic world. Our dear Imam targeted the heart of the world oppressor in his struggle, meaning the occupying regime. I have no doubt that the new wave that has started in Palestine, and we witness it in the Islamic world too, will eliminate this disgraceful stain from the Islamic world."
(source: www.nytimes.com, based on a publication of 'Iranian Students News Agency' (ISNA) -- insertions by the New York Times in squared brackets -- passages in triple squared brackets will be left blank in the MEMRI version printed below)

It's becoming clear. The statements of the Iranian President have been reflected by the media in a manipulated way. Iran's President betokens the removal of the regimes, that are in power in Israel and in the USA, to be possible aim for the future. This is correct. But he never demands the elimination or annihilation of Israel. He reveals that changes are potential. The Shah-Regime being supported by the USA in its own country has been vanquished. The eastern governance of the Soviet Union collapsed. Saddam Hussein's dominion drew to a close. Referring to this he voices his aspiration that changes will also be feasible in Israel respectively in Palestine. He adduces Ayatollah Khomeini referring to the Shah-Regime who in this context said that the regime (meaning the Shah-Regime) should be removed.

Certainly, Ahmadinejad translates this quotation about a change of regime into the occupied Palestine. This has to be legitimate. To long for modified political conditions in a country is a world-wide day-to-day business by all means. But to commute a demand for removal of a 'regime' into a demand for removal of a state is serious deception and dangerous demagogy.

This is one chapter of the war against Iran that has already begun with the words of Georg Meggle, professor of philosophy at the university of Leipzig - namely with the probably most important phase, the phase of propaganda.

Marginally we want to mention that it was the former US Vice-Minister of Defence and current President of the World Bank, Paul D. Wolfowitz, who in Sept. 2001 talked about ending states in public and without any kind of awe. And it was the father of George W. Bush who started the discussion about a winnable nuclear war if only the survival of an elite is assured.


And what of the holocaust?

Does Iran's President deny the Holocaust?

"The German government condemned the repetitive offending anti-Israel statements by Ahmadinejad to be shocking. Such behaviour is not tolerable, Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier stated. [...] Federal Chancellor Angela Merkel proclaimed Ahmadinejad's statements to be 'inconceivable'" (published by tagesschau.de 2005-12-14.

But not only the German Foreign Minister Steinmeier and the Federal Chancellor Merkel allege this, but the Bild-Zeitung, tagesschau.de, parts of the peace movement, US-President George W. Bush, the 'Papers for German and international politics', CNN, the Heinrich-Böll-Foundation, almost the entire world does so, too: Iran's President Ahmadinejad denies the Holocaust.


And the meaning of what he actually says?

[i]There again we find the quotation already rendered by n24: "In the name of the Holocaust they created a myth." We can see that this is completely different from what is published by e.g. the DPA - the massacre against the Jews is a fairy-tale. What Ahmadinejad does is not denying the Holocaust. No! It is dealing out criticism against the mendacity of the imperialistic powers who use the Holocaust to muzzle critical voices and to achieve advantages concerning the legitimization of a planned war. This is criticism against the exploitation of the Holocaust.

CNN (2005-12-15) renders as follows: "If you have burned the Jews why don't you give a piece of Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to Israel. Our question is, if you have committed this huge crime, why should the innocent nation of Palestine pay for this crime?"

The Washingtonian ''Middle East Media Research Institute' (MEMRI) renders Ahmadinejad's statements from 2005-12-14 as follows: "...we ask you: if you indeed committed this great crime, why should the oppressed people of Palestine be punished for it? * [...] If you committed a crime, you yourselves should pay for it. Our offer was and remains as follows: If you committed a crime, it is only appropriate that you place a piece of your land at their disposal - a piece of Europe, of America, of Canada, or of Alaska - so they can establish their own state. Rest assured that if you do so, the Iranian people will voice no objection."[i/]

Basically he is saying there is a myth about the holocaust and that is that "If you have burned the Jews" that is no reason to take out one crime with another on Palestinians.

For gods sake, Ahmadinejad is a horrible and obviously rather mad person. Why do so many feel it necessary to distort what he says just because he does it in language that is strange to us in the west. He usually speaks in Farsi.

I think Ahmadinejad is bad for Iran and for the world, but those who traduce what he says are worse.

In any case what he says is of little import as he is not in charge.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day ago) and read 4049 times:



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 21):
But Nav20 is nothing less than an anti-Semite and I think this is something you should be aware of.

As you apparently do not know the difference between Zionism and being Jewish you might find this a help.

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/holocaust-zionism.htm

From its' inception, many rabbis warned of the potential dangers of Zionism and openly declared that all Jews loyal to G-d should stay away from it like one would from fire. They made their opinions clear to their congregants and to the general public. Their message was that Zionism is a chauvinistic racist phenomenon which has absolutely naught to do with Judaism. They publicly expressed that Zionism would definitely be detrimental to the well being of Jews and Gentiles and that its effects on the Jewish religion would be nothing other than destructive. Further, it would taint the reputation of Jewry as a whole and would cause utter confusion in the Jewish and non-Jewish communities. Judaism is a religion. Judaism is not a race or a nationality. That was and still remains the consensus amongst the rabbis.

There is a view that Zionism iteslf bears some blame:

It is an historical fact that in 1941 and again in 1942, the German Gestapo offered all European Jews transit to Spain, if they would relinquish all their property in Germany and Occupied France; on condition that:
a) none of the deportees travel from Spain to Palestine; and
b) all the deportees be transported from Spain to the USA or British colonies, and there to remain; with entry visas to be arranged by the Jews living there; and
c) $1000.00 ransom for each family to be furnished by the Agency, payable upon the arrival of the family at the Spanish border at the rate of 1000 families daily.

The Zionist leaders in Switzerland and Turkey received this offer with the clear understanding that the exclusion of Palestine as a destination for the deportees was based on an agreement between the Gestapo and the Mufti.

The answer of the Zionist leaders was negative, with the following comments:
a) ONLY Palestine would be considered as a destination for the deportees.
b) The European Jews must accede to suffering and death greater in measure than the other nations, in order that the victorious allies agree to a "Jewish State" at the end of the war.
c) No ransom will be paid
This response to the Gestapo's offer was made with the full knowledge that the alternative to this offer was the gas chamber.


As to Nav being anti semitic, I have read a number of posts where he has written well of many Arabs. As he has of Jews, just not so much of Zionists. Just as I don't recall him writing well of Ayman al-Zawahiri.


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8021 posts, RR: 26
Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 months 21 hours ago) and read 4023 times:



Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 19):
And to equate Israel's legitimate right to self-defense (since it's civilians were repeatedly and DELIBERATELY targeted for death with suicide bombers aboard buses) to the Holocaust is absolutely disgusting and you should be ashamed of yourself for asserting it.

The mere fact that the state of Israel was established under duress and involved the displacement of an existing population - and as a result continues to generate regional and global repercussions is NOT in dispute and is a perfectly balanced view for any reasonable individual to have. Whether or not it was the right thing to do is where the debate starts and there are obviously many views on the subject.

But nobody should be ashamed of anything unless their assertion is along the lines of either A) All Palestinians should be eliminated or B) All Israelis should be eliminated.

The Holocaust reference is apt given the stark irony between going from living in a ghetto to keeping neighboring citizens in one for want of security - and not only myself, but many other Jews think so.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8790 posts, RR: 24
Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 months 19 hours ago) and read 3948 times:

I lost what sympathy I had for the Palestinians in 2005 when Israel finally did what they were asked to (at least the first step) in handing back Gaza. The Palestinians responded by electing Hamas and using their new-found property to set up rocket launchers.

After that happened, I cannot blame Israel for not being so eager to give them back any more land.

That said, I agree that the settlements need to stop.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
25 Aaron747 : That seems to be the one sticking point all reasonable people agree on regardless of what ultraZionist bumbleheads in certain sectors of the Knesset
26 NAV20 : Agree. There are other issues, though, as to how much of Palestine has in fact been 'handed back.' We all know that Gaza is completely cut off from t
27 Timlin88 : Good point. A very good documentary I saw about the history of the whole conflict dwelled on this for a while. It claimed (and wikipedia just corrobo
28 NAV20 : Too right, Timline88. To quote Lord Montagu (who happened to be Jewish) in the 1917 House of Lords debate on the Balfour Declaration: "... the harm d
29 Post contains links Aaron747 : Actually, Ahad Ha'am, a noted Ukrainian scholar, may have put it best, all the way back in 1897: ...a political ideal which does not rest on the natio
30 DocLightning : I dunno, it reads to me a lot like the flip-side of a lot of supremacism. When you speak of cultural purity, it scares the crap out of me.
31 Aaron747 : I think it would help to consider the context of the times in which he was writing.
32 DocLightning : Yup. And it's a lot later these days. So my concerns are valid. The idea that Israel is supposed to only be home to a certain brand of Jewish Culture
33 Shawn Patrick : Is that the main reason you support Israel, RJpieces? Big party foul there, bro. Stick to relevant arguments.[Edited 2009-05-29 18:07:32]
34 Aaron747 : You went to Hebrew school, did you not? I don't know what curriculum you may have had, but we covered this guy to a pretty fair extent. The larger co
35 RJpieces : I support liberal democracies, period. But I especially support a beleaguered liberal democracy surrounded by countries and societies that are manife
36 BA : Let's not get so literal. Plenty of critics from Congressman Ron Paul to the Vatican's Justice and Peace Minister have likened Gaza to a concentratio
37 Post contains links Baroque : He was certainly part of a strong opposition movement to Zionism based on theoretical grounds. Although I am not sure his comments are as useful as D
38 RussianJet : To continue constructing settlements demonstrates a fundamental lack of will to seriously make efforts for peace or enter into negotiation. As long as
39 Timlin88 : I think you're treading on some very thin ice there. Confiscating property is one thing, ethnic cleansing is something entirely different. I cannot a
40 Us330 : I'd never thought I would say this, but within the various doctrines and relating to the use of nuclear weaponry, Iran's decision to pursue a nuke ac
41 Klaus : The United States of America, for instance. I know that the USA has mostly progressed beyond this rather dark beginning, but in some ways there are r
42 Post contains images NAV20 : No-one will ever know for certain, Baroque. Politicians weren't mercilessly questioned by the 'meejah' in those days, and Balfour didn't write any pr
43 Post contains links Baroque : I think it actually came from the UK cable company that the Germans had to use for comms to the US!!! The cable itsef is here: http://www.archives.go
44 Post contains links Baroque : I think it actually came from the UK cable company that the Germans had to use for comms to the US!!! The cable itself is here: http://www.archives.g
45 Us330 : My opinion on the issue: I support Israel, but I think that the establishment of settlements is incredibly stupid, and if not suicidal, then at least
46 Dtwclipper : I will not post in this thread, I will not post in this thread, I will not post in this thread......that's what I kept saying, but I have to ask you g
47 NAV20 : Bit of a 'tangled web,' Baroque. I tried to post a link supporting the view I expressed, but A.net wouldn't accept it. Same thing just happened with
48 NAV20 : Hi, Dtwclipper. No - just that the poor bloody Palestinians are paying a high price for having always been occupied by someone. And paying a high pri
49 Yellowstone : Also recall that the US built concentration camps for Japanese-Americans in WW2. Concentration camps are not necessarily death camps, although the la
50 Timlin88 : I maybe should have phrased that differently. I wasn't holding the fact against Israel, I was simply stating a fact. Before 1948, the Holy Land was r
51 Post contains images Klaus : It would be ridiculous to hold this perfectly natural statement against anyone... but of course that still doesn't stop certain people as we've seen.
52 FreequentFlier : *smacks forehead* Let's deal with this "separation wall". The wall was constructed because prior to its construction, Palestinians suicide bombers we
53 Klaus : Apart from your uncritical following of the official israeli government's talking points being more than just slightly dubious, you've missed the poi
54 FreequentFlier : The problem is that a majority of the Palestinians are "hard-liners". Poll after poll after poll shows that a clear majority supports continued suici
55 Bravo45 : How the F#%k can you say that!!!!! Build that fence on your side before you say something like that. I tell you what is common between this wall and
56 Klaus : You'd find that the response would differ greatly depending on the context within which it's being asked. If the context is that they are treated lik
57 NAV20 : I'm more hopeful than that, Bravo45, because he hasn't said waffly things like 'negotiate with a view to.." He's just said, ".....freeze the settleme
58 Bravo45 : I soooo hope I am wrong and you are right on this. I just never bought into the Obama mania, I only saw someone very open (at times) but with no inte
59 RussianJet : On the contrary, that is one of the worst and silliest descriptions ever, as it seeks to simplstically and blindly transfer all blame and responsibil
60 Post contains links NAV20 : This (Israeli) story offers a lot of hope in that direction, Bravo45. It will be interesting to see how the Israelis react to a US President who look
61 Baroque : Was there not a saying about "not missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity"? Now remind me, who was that about? Perhaps the boot might be "movin
62 Aaron747 : Legal, according to the current Israeli government. Therein lies the convenient rub. As any US administration should. There is nothing to agree upon
63 NAV20 : There's an interesting point in that connection, Aaron747. The settlements didn't 'just happen.' The Israeli Government 'annexed' the land without pa
64 Bravo45 : Hmm.... Thanks a lot NAV20, I won't have internet at my new place for another week, so I am obviously not that in touch. I hope this is the begining
65 DocLightning : I'm reminded of an incident when I was in residency. My senior resident was Israeli and we had a Palestinian family come in with a sick baby. During r
66 Post contains links and images Galapagapop : Well even though I extremely welcome his harder sounding lines on Israel, I think what matters more to them is his rather soft approach to Iran's nucl
67 DocLightning : A photoshopped pic of Obama shaking hands with Abujawhatsawhozit?
68 Galapagapop : I think the fact they want to label him a "jew hater" may be a tad more telling than the quality of the image that was photoshopped.
69 Cairo : If you disagree with Israeli policies, you hate Jews and want to revive the Holocaust. Unless you want war with Iran, you want to see the destruction
70 DocLightning : Exactly! I'm glad you've come to your senses!
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