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GM Plans For Bankruptcy Monday  
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2382 times:

General Motors, which today unveiled a sweetened deal to shed billions in debt, plans to file for bankruptcy reorganization Monday, the Free Press has learned.




http://www.freep.com/article/2009052...037/GM+plans+for+bankruptcy+Monday


Well folks, here we go.

57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePhoenix9 From Canada, joined Aug 2007, 2546 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2366 times:



Quoting Dtwclipper (Thread starter):
General Motors, which today unveiled a sweetened deal to shed billions in debt, plans to file for bankruptcy reorganization Monday, the Free Press has learned.

Well it was predicted when the sh*t hit the fan. It was not the question of if but...when?
They better learn their lessons and smarten up.



Life only makes sense when you look at it backwards.
User currently offlineCharles79 From Puerto Rico, joined Mar 2007, 1331 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2336 times:



Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 1):
They better learn their lessons and smarten up.

I wish I could share your optimism. I've been following the car industry since 1990 and every 5 years or so I would read about the new turnaround plan by GM, Chrysler or Ford...


... as for the bankrupt filing, well, it was expected since last year. I still can't understand why Bush had to give them both the loans back then instead of allowing them to file for bankruptcy, would've saved us some money I think.


User currently offlineTylerdurden From United States of America, joined May 2008, 852 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2306 times:



Quoting Charles79 (Reply 2):
would've saved us some money I think.

GM still needs approximately $30B after the filing to actually survive.
A surreal number for the crap they produce.


User currently offlinePhoenix9 From Canada, joined Aug 2007, 2546 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2301 times:



Quoting Tylerdurden (Reply 3):
$30B

WTF! What's the guarantee that they will actually change their strategy and produce something worth buying? Even after $30B , there is no guarantee that they will survive long enough to pay the loans back. Makes you wonder what was happening in the boardrooms and where billions went.



Life only makes sense when you look at it backwards.
User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8002 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2298 times:

I'm not surprised it has come to this. GM has WAY too much excess capacity and reducing themselves to no more than Chevrolet, Cadillac and GMC in North America and Chevrolet and Opel/Vauxhall in the rest of the world must be part of their long-term survival strategy.

I would not be surprised that a Chinese automotive company like China's SAIC seriously looks at either buying many GM assets or becomes a part owner of GM. Why SAIC? GM sells cars very successfully in China in a joint venture with SAIC and SAIC wants to keep those production lines in China going.


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2291 times:



Quoting Charles79 (Reply 2):
... as for the bankrupt filing, well, it was expected since last year. I still can't understand why Bush had to give them both the loans back then instead of allowing them to file for bankruptcy, would've saved us some money I think.

Well because he was about to leave office and if he didn't he would have been villified. No to mention Obama would have done it if Bush didn't. Everyone with half a brain knew it was wrong to do and we were throwing money out the window but we all bought in to the CNN crap about people losing their jobs and nobody buying a car from a company under restrucuring. Both of which was left wing propaganda. GM has been a horrible run company for 20 years. They owed 70 Billion, had a union that sucked, had 20% market share and had a cost to make a vehicle that was nuts. They should have filed last year, should have got some better management in and told the UAW to go to hell. Instead of acting like a bunch of sacred cows that the Obama administration would give a blank check.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8468 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2255 times:

NikV, I agree with your post 100%. Well done my friend.

User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3544 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2243 times:



Quoting RayChuang (Reply 5):
I'm not surprised it has come to this. GM has WAY too much excess capacity and reducing themselves to no more than Chevrolet, Cadillac and GMC in North America and Chevrolet and Opel/Vauxhall in the rest of the world must be part of their long-term survival strategy.

Opel/Vauxhall will be heading off on their own, there's 4 different bidders at the moment, looking to see who will get the most support from European governments

In the case of Vauxhall, it was bought by GM in 1925. So thats 84 years of GM ownership down the drain, due to the US arm producing antiquated crap that no one wants.

The present problem for Vauxhall is that despite massive sales in the UK, the vast majority of the cars are made in Germany, thus the German government is looking for assurances from prospective buyers to preserve German jobs, and the chances are the UK plants will get severely pruned, in an economy drive.


User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13073 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2205 times:

June 1st will indeed be a sad day in American history as the biggest manufacturing company based in the USA and one of the biggest in the world, GM, goes into Chapter 11 Bankruptcy. Today, Friday, May 29th, Chrysler should finalize it's deal with Fiat. Ford is surviving, but will probalby have to get bailout money soon.
What has led us to this point has been well documented in many places. The bankruptcy of GM and Chrysler will desvestate communities where they and supplier companies are throughout the world even in the best sceaniro. Where these corporations go from here will be a huge challange. Let us hope for the best for all concerned.


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2197 times:



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 9):
June 1st will indeed be a sad day in American history as the biggest manufacturing company based in the USA and one of the biggest in the world, GM, goes into Chapter 11 Bankruptcy. Today, Friday, May 29th, Chrysler should finalize it's deal with Fiat. Ford is surviving, but will probalby have to get bailout money soon.
What has led us to this point has been well documented in many places. The bankruptcy of GM and Chrysler will desvestate communities where they and supplier companies are throughout the world even in the best sceaniro. Where these corporations go from here will be a huge challange. Let us hope for the best for all concerned.

Well maybe if the board at GM didn't just sit back and watch as the company was run into the ground this could have been avoided. Remember one important point. The downturn in the economy was only the final nail in GM's coffin. They failed to act as the company failed in many areas. For this they deserve their fate.


User currently onlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8115 posts, RR: 26
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2195 times:



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
For this they deserve their fate.

What are you talking about? Their proper fate is being denied to them by yet more government intervention. They aren't getting the fate they deserve at all.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10677 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2175 times:

And now GM f***s up the future of Opel too, by playing tricks at the last minute. Just one of the once 4 takers is still interested (Fiat left this morning) - and is unexpectedly confronted with a GM delegation suddenly asking for more money and bringing up different issues to the ones spoken about before, thus spoiling the negotiations, fooling investors and the German government. Even by today Opel could be broke, if the last investor, Magna, should turn their back in disgust. There will be no taxpayers money to save them should GM not give in.

GM is a bad-managed monster, and has been that for long.


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2174 times:



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 11):
What are you talking about? Their proper fate is being denied to them by yet more government intervention. They aren't getting the fate they deserve at all.

Well the UAW is too politically connected. The bondholders and stockholders are taking a beating here. All of this was born out of the fact CNN and MSNBC exploited the notion they were too big to fail. They should have been allowed to die a long time ago. Whenever you put one worker in a higher regard than another and a union in charge this will happen.


User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2174 times:



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6):
They should have filed last year, should have got some better management in and told the UAW to go to hell. Instead of acting like a bunch of sacred cows that the Obama administration would give a blank check.

I believe it was Bush who first uttered the words "too big to fail" and that the Obama Administration has made GM rewrite their business plan several times instead of signing blank checks, but feel free to see it any way you want.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
Well maybe if the board at GM didn't just sit back and watch as the company was run into the ground this could have been avoided. Remember one important point. The downturn in the economy was only the final nail in GM's coffin. They failed to act as the company failed in many areas. For this they deserve their fate.

Everyone involved was not willing to disrupt the status quo till the shit hit the fan and they had no choice but deal with the aftermath. A lot of management compensation is in the form of stock grants or options which are all worthless, so they aren't dancing around the boardroom table. A lot of the worker's retirement plan is backed by the new GM stock, which will be worthless if the company doesn't get its shit together.

I hope everyone involved is fully funding their IRAs and saving for tomorrow since chances are GM v2.0 will circle the toilet in a few years anyhow.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 11):
What are you talking about? Their proper fate is being denied to them by yet more government intervention. They aren't getting the fate they deserve at all.

They are getting the fate the US voters wanted. I didn't see too many politicians running on an anti-auto industry plank last year.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9168 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2167 times:

Any chance for them to avoid this? Will they survive after this?

User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2162 times:



Quoting United Airline (Reply 15):
Any chance for them to avoid this?

No, their first loan from the government comes due soon (Monday?) and they can't pay it back.

Quoting United Airline (Reply 15):
Will they survive after this?

In some form, for a while, yes.

If they can't figure out how to build cars as good as their competition for the same price, no.

They really have a lot going against them. I think the general public has doubts bout their future so they will be leery of buying a car from them. I hope they know they need to improve their product, but they can't turn things around overnight, and their balance sheet won't support huge investments in new technology. Now the US Gov't will be voting around 75% of the shares, so they now have a very fickle and obtuse business partner, like it or not.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8218 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2159 times:



Quoting Charles79 (Reply 2):
I still can't understand why Bush had to give them both the loans back then instead of allowing them to file for bankruptcy, would've saved us some money I think.

Bush didn't want GM to close under his watch - he had enough problems with his reputation as it was. It was left to Obama to take the bull by the horns and save as much as possible from the mess he was left. OMG, that sounds familiar.  Sad

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6):
Everyone with half a brain knew it was wrong to do and we were throwing money out the window but we all bought in to the CNN crap about people losing their jobs and nobody buying a car from a company under restrucuring.

People with jobs pay federal and state income taxes, FICA and various other taxes, like sales taxes. People without jobs receive money from the federal and state treasurers rather than putting money in. That hasn't changed.

Nor has the phycology of buying from a company in bankruptcy. The fast, surgical approach is a lot cheaper as lawyers will not have years of billing. It also gets a company back in the market faster.

Forget liberal/conservative approaches - this is Common Sense 101.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 13):
Well the UAW is too politically connected. The bondholders and stockholders are taking a beating here.

If Bush had taken on the problem instead of passing it to Obama that situation would have been reversed.

The issue now is how much the new GM will discount the cars from the old GM in order to get production going, orders going to suppliers, etc. The existing cars need to be prices at a lower point that will be possible under union concessions. That is when we will see how well GM can compete.


User currently offlineArrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2137 times:
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Quoting Ken777 (Reply 17):
People with jobs pay federal and state income taxes, FICA and various other taxes, like sales taxes. People without jobs receive money from the federal and state treasurers rather than putting money in. That hasn't changed.

Yeah, but at what point does it make more sense to just let the company die, and cut a big one-time cheque for every employee instead? This is just on the Canadian side of this catastrophe, but I'm sure it wouldn't take much to do the same calculation for the US parent company.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...or-every-job-saved/article1158733/

Excerpt:

$1.4-million for every job saved

With the projected cost of bailing out GM and Chrysler mounting by the day, the federal and Ontario governments may need to come up with a new sales pitch to persuade maxed-out taxpayers to go along for the increasingly wild ride.

Ottawa and Toronto were already asking a lot of Canadians – most of whom have no private retirement fund and earn significantly less than auto assembly workers – by allowing some of the bailout money to go toward fixing an estimated $7-billion shortfall in GM Canada's pension plan.

But with the latest forecast pegging the overall bailout bill at as much as $13.5-billion, or more than three times the original estimate, politicians are testing the limits of recession-racked Canadians' tolerance and financial wherewithal. The ballooning bailouts are pushing Ottawa deeper into the red, with this year's deficit projected to surpass $50-billion.

At General Motors of Canada Ltd. alone, the rescue package could amount to a staggering $1.4-million for every job saved, with no guarantee that the bailout will ensure the long-term survival of the company's remaining auto assembly and engine plants.


If you simply help out the workers (think they'd turn down, say, a cool million each?) and let the market decide the rest, you'd get a much better result long term. The federal government just revealed that the 2009 deficit will hit $50 billion now (up from $30B), largely because of the auto bailout. That's insanity.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2124 times:



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 13):
Well the UAW is too politically connected. The bondholders and stockholders are taking a beating here. All of this was born out of the fact CNN and MSNBC exploited the notion they were too big to fail.

Funny, http://www.google.com/search?q=gm+"too+big+to+fail" didn't bring up hits from CNN or MSNBC in the first few pages.

Limiting the search to CNN via http://www.google.com/search?q=gm+%22too+big+to+fail%22+site%3Acnn.com shows articles about how "too big to fail" is bad policy.

Why would any news outlet care either way? Wouldn't the pain and suffering of zillions of auto workers make better news copy than some government officials signing a bailout bill?

Or maybe you feel better blaming this on the media, when it's true that both political parties supported the auto industry bailout even when their constituents did not, despite the alleged media brainwashing?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2118 times:



Quoting Revelation (Reply 19):
suffering of zillions of auto workers

When are you folks going to stop talking about just the "auto workers" who are going to and are already suffering?

We are all going to suffer from this. I have friends who have lost their jobs because GM is no longer ordering from their suppliers and in other cases no longer able to provide funding for charitable organizations.

It's not about the UAW alone, it is about thousands of engineers, designers, etc., who are going to loose their income and thus everyone around them will loose.

Why is this so hard to understand?


User currently offlineCasInterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4568 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2116 times:



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6):
ell because he was about to leave office and if he didn't he would have been villified. No to mention Obama would have done it if Bush didn't

Are you trying to say that Bush abandoned his principles?



The sad truth here is that GM was poorly run and has a deep divide between Management and the Unions. You can't make a great car when both sides want nothing but Money and will sacrifice quality to get it. Their are some good people in both camps, but ultimately they get led to the slaughter with the advance of the "left" and "right" sides of the issue.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 20):
It's not about the UAW alone, it is about thousands of engineers, designers, etc., who are going to loose their income and thus everyone around them will loose.

GM will go bankrupt and reorginize. Many of their suppliers will have to do the same. This will be a snowball effect throughout the economy. Many folks will lose their life savings, their pensions, and other effects. The future will be much different for this era of GM workers than the previous generations.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12422 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2109 times:



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 20):

It's not about the UAW alone, it is about thousands of engineers, designers, etc., who are going to loose their income and thus everyone around them will loose.

Why is this so hard to understand?

I agree with you, and because of that, I'll ignore how you quoted me WAAAY out of context in order to make your point.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2109 times:



Quoting Revelation (Reply 22):
I'll ignore how you quoted me WAAAY out of context in order to make your

Thanks...I won't do it again! Big grin  Big grin


User currently offlineCharles79 From Puerto Rico, joined Mar 2007, 1331 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2100 times:



Quoting CasInterest (Reply 21):
The future will be much different for this era of GM workers than the previous generations.

I think this is about the only thing that we can count on. GM as it is today will no longer exist. Their European presence will shrink to Corvette, a few Cadillacs and the Korean-imported Chevys (no more Opel or Saab). Asia, particularly China, might still look the same (haven't heard much about Holden but the SAIC-backed Chinese Buick looks strong at the moment). Here in America, though, we should see the biggest changes: no more Pontiacs or Saturns, more small cars at Chevy dealers, fewer large SUVs, and a bigger push for "green" cars. Oh, and substantially reduced wages for its workforce, far fewer benefits (I read that the retirees will now pick up the tab for dental/vision themselves), and a dented image. Add to that a much smaller footprint in terms of dealers and plants closures.

When the history books are written many historians will undoubtedly point to the economic crisis as the reason for their demise. However, those who take a deeper look will see a company which had been loosing market share and posting heavy losses for far too long without taking the necessary steps to adapt to the changing times. A bureaucratic heriarchy, a short-sighted management, and at times an inflexible union will all make the reading material at business schools as well.

About the only variable that we have at the moment which might have not been foreseen is the government intervention. The previous administration set the ball rolling with the government backed loans, the current administration kept it rolling with increased funding and a push for a quick bankruptcy filing. Now the question that remains is for how long will the government intervention last, and how much clout will it have on the decision making process.

As for the effects on the economy it's too complex of a situation at the moment to suggest, with enough confidence, what might have happened had the government not intervened when it did. We'll never know whether GM would have been shut down by now or not. At the same time the big question remains: will the new, post-bankruptcy GM survive and be competitive? It will be an interesting story to follow.


25 MD-90 : And the billions and billions of dollars given to Chrysler and GM were supposed to prevent bankruptcy, not merely delay it. Or so the pro-big governme
26 NIKV69 : Say what you want but how much money did they waste of ours? Money we will never see again. That is because the left wing is in bed with CNN and MSNB
27 StasisLAX : As long as the Cadillac Motor Car Company survives the collapse of GM, all will be fine.
28 Revelation : Yet I looked for the evidence and found none. Do you want to provide any? Indeed, and before, but that was when the last administration was in charge
29 RayChuang : Someone earlier said that Ford will need a bailout. Ford has said that money is NOT for Ford itself, but to prop up the parts suppliers providing part
30 Ken777 : It's not just GM - it is all of the other businesses that generate revenues from the company or their employees. Parts suppliers who close because of
31 Post contains images NIKV69 : It's all relative, Toyota felt it sure but they sell a hell of a lot more cars than GM and pay a hell of a lot less to make them so in 2-3 years they
32 N328KF : Until the downturn, there was strong competition for #1 between GM, Ford, Toyota, and Volkswagen. To say that Toyota sells a "hell of a lot more" is
33 Okie : That may be true, but the country is losing 600,000+ jobs a month and it is just ludicris to keep pouring Billions into the car industry that is not
34 Charles79 : I'm assuming this is your own estimate and not an official figure but I'd be surprised if the official figure is that much lower than your estimate.
35 DXing : That would be very limited. For the most part the foreign owned assembly plants are located in the south and in towns away from GM assembly centers.
36 Dtwclipper : Sorry DX, but this is incorrect. There is a shared supply chain for both the domestic and the transplant auto makers. For example (and there are many
37 EMBQA : There is a part of me that says "So What...???" Think back to the time that GM was the big bully on the street and crushed, threatened, sued, lobbied
38 DXing : Then I stand corrected. Evidently things have changed since the big hue and cry when the offshore manufacturers came here they first imported their p
39 Dtwclipper : Could you give us an example from the last 50 years?
40 Aaron747 : I hate to break it to you, but the loan Toyota is taking from the JBIC is in US dollars and is only to provide financing for US operations. TMC has b
41 EMBQA : You can't because they forced them all to be shut down..... Although not GM, what about Robert Kearns -v- Ford....????[Edited 2009-05-31 06:56:59]
42 Dtwclipper : You can't give us one example from the last 50 years? Which ones?
43 EMBQA : Again.. in the last 50 yrs no... because by then they had all been forced out of business
44 Dtwclipper : Apples and oranges and off topic. Since you can't answer the original question, we will assume it is baseless opinion.
45 EMBQA : It can't be answered because YOU'RE limiting to the last 50...Over the last 50 years there have on been the 3,,,,,now go 20 years deeper and the list
46 Dtwclipper : OK tell me, with back up, those car companies GM put out of business as you say: crushed, threatened, sued, lobbied. This should be good. BTW, in the
47 VonRichtofen : I'm so sick of hearing about auto worker jobs. Since when are auto worker jobs more important than any other job? What about the thousands and thousan
48 Dtwclipper : They no longer exist, happy. They have gone they way of the glamourus stewardess and the dodo. Enjoy the fact that they will no longer have the buyin
49 Falcon84 : I have two GM vehicles: a 2005 Chevy Malibu Classic, and a 2005 Chevy Malibu. They're anything but crap. They're excellent vehicles.
50 Ken777 : My first Toyota was made in Japan - a 70 Corolla.. I've also spent money on Toyotas that were made in the US and also a Corona and Corolla that was ma
51 Par13del : GM has received funds from both the past and current administration, the scandal in all this if they do Chpt.11 on Monday is that some folks will hav
52 Post contains links Dtwclipper : Sure 'bout that? One of the Gremlin's major selling points was its powertrain. While the rest of the subcompact competition had to make do with four-
53 MD-90 : Growing up my family had two Cressidas that were made in Japan and a Camry that was made in Kentucky (and allowing for the fact that the Cressida was
54 Charles79 : You know I get the feeling that we would have been doing the same thing even if a Republican President/Congress were in power. Why is it that folks k
55 Post contains links StasisLAX : With General Motors expected to file for chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in New York on tomorrow morning, German government negotiators scrambled to
56 FLY2HMO : Please let them die, PLEASE. I don't see why a company, that has been struggling due to their own inability to make quality cars (amongst many other
57 Okie : You can add to that jobs for out of work politicians and relatives. Jeez just look at what Blago, former governor of Illinois, was asking for his wif
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