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Russia Accuses Poland Of Starting WW2  
User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5743 posts, RR: 19
Posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 11610 times:

Russia accuses Poland of starting Second World War

Russia has accused Poland of provoking the outbreak of the Second World War by refusing to accede to the "very modest" demands of Nazi Germany.

The Russian defence ministry posted a potentially inflammatory essay on its website which claimed Poland resisted Germany's ultimatums in 1939 only because it "wanted to obtain the status of a great power".

The lengthy diatribe, which is unlikely to be welcomed in Warsaw, also lashed out at Britain and France for giving the Poles "delusions of grandeur" by promising to intercede if the Nazis invaded...

...Dmitry Medvedev, the Russian president, last month created a commission to identify foreign "revisionists" who disparage the country's prestige and "falsify" its history...

...It also attacked the Western press for suggesting that the Soviet Union carried some blame for the War by its alliance with Hitler under the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, which carved up Europe into two spheres of influence to be headed by Hitler and Stalin.

"No representatives of a Western democracy has the right to discuss any treaty between the Soviet Union and Germany," given that Neville Chamberlain signed the Munich Agreement of 1938 giving Germany control of the Sudetenland.

As for the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, Col Kovalev wrote, it was merely a time-buying mechanism after Britain refused to sign a mutual defence treaty with the Soviet Union.

Under the pact the Soviet Union took control of two-thirds of Poland as well as the Baltic states, but only, he wrote, in order to create a buffer zone that would allow Moscow to marshal its defences ahead of an inevitable war with the Third Reich.

Under planned legislation, backed by Mr Medvedev, any Russian or foreigner who claims that the Soviet Union occupied Poland or the Baltic States could face up to five years in prison.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-of-starting-Second-World-War.html

Thoughts, comments?
I am probably the last one to be surprised by anything that comes from Kremlin or underestimate its entertainment value, but this accusation really IS absurd and how much Russia is increasing the official denial about its past is really worrying.
sidenote: This only highlights how any effort to legislate interpretation of history is totalitarian and most of all counterproductive [e.g. "holocaust denial" legislation in certain European countries (mine notwithstanding)].

80 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7718 posts, RR: 21
Reply 1, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 11585 times:

Hang on a second, is it 'posted an essay on the defence ministry website' or 'accused'? Two very different things, regardless of what your personal feelings may be about Russia. Russia has not publically come out and made any such accusation.


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5743 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 11571 times:

a) The Telegraph chose such headline, not me.
b) I think it's only logical to assume that since it's posted on government ministry's website it reflects the official policy. Had it been an editorial or opinion piece in "Pravda" I would not even bother to mention it.
Nice try to play it down, RJ.


User currently offlineA332 From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 1644 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 11562 times:



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 1):
Russia has not publically come out and made any such accusation.

So the fact the Russian Defense Ministry posted it means what exactly?



Bad spellers of the world... UNTIE!
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 11560 times:

The Russians defending the Nazi's? Who killed how many untold Russians? And for what reason would Russia do this? To try and provoke another fight with Poland-a NATO member, I might add?

The Russians are getting too cocky for their own britches in recent years. They may reap something they never intended.

What utter nonsense.


User currently offlinePhoenix9 From Canada, joined Aug 2007, 2546 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 11558 times:

Just one question: Why are they digging up the old corpses again? (no pun intended)


Life only makes sense when you look at it backwards.
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9268 posts, RR: 21
Reply 6, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 11548 times:



Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 5):

Just one question: Why are they digging up the old corpses again?

Yeah really... That was what, almost 70 years ago exactly?

And Poland starting WWII? Last time I checked, Hitler and his band of rejects and whack jobs destroyed that country beginning on 1 September 1939. They were annihilated, so it's their fault that such a beating started the war...

Ok...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7718 posts, RR: 21
Reply 7, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 11534 times:



Quoting A332 (Reply 3):
So the fact the Russian Defense Ministry posted it means what exactly?

That they're putting it out there for consideration, not that it is the position of the state - otherwise the state would say that that was it's position.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21851 posts, RR: 55
Reply 8, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 11532 times:



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 7):
That they're putting it out there for consideration

You don't put something out there for consideration unless you believe it has some merit.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineBravo45 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2165 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 11522 times:

The amazing fact everyone forgets in this story is that the French and the British who declared war in defence of Poland ended the war after signing away Poland to the Soviet Union.

User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5743 posts, RR: 19
Reply 10, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 11521 times:



Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 5):
Why are they digging up the old corpses again?

I don't know. Maybe it's a pure coincidence, but the only remotely relevant reason that I can think of is the fact that June 4th is when the final act of communism in C&E Europe began with free elections being held in Poland 20 years ago.
Since according to comrade Putin fall of communism and USSR was the "biggest geopolitical disaster of the 20th century" and Poland has done most of the "heavy lifting" in bringing the regime down in the then-Soviet bloc, ever since the Solidarity strikes in Gdansk shipyards in early 1980s they feel they should spoil the fun to Poles and others by grabbing the attention.
But I could be overstretching it.

What is also worth pointing out is the rather strange logic of reasoning in that essay under which on one hand Polish (armed) resistance to Hitler's territorial demands iwa bad and caused WW2 but surrendering Sudetenland couple months earlier was bad just as much. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Also, it was the coward-in-chief Benes and the Czechoslovak government who surrendered Sudetenland + rest of the territory (and high quality weaponry) w/o firing a shot, not Chameberlain - who as much as I despise him - only co-signed a paper.The Czechoslovak still had the option to grow a backbone and tell Neville & Co. to shove the Munich Treaty up their....)
And putting on the same moral level Chamberlain's appeasment of Hitler and Stalin's alliance with Hitler resulting in invading half of Poland and sending countless to gulags is beyond ridiculous.
Last but not least, WW2 paved the way to Soviet conquest of half of Europe for the next 40 years, so what are they complaining about? The price ordinary Russians paid in terms of human lives lost was terrible, but that has never been a factor in the chambers of Kremlin.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40065 posts, RR: 74
Reply 11, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 11513 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
The Russians defending the Nazi's? Who killed how many untold Russians?



Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 6):
Last time I checked, Hitler and his band of rejects and whack jobs destroyed that country beginning on 1 September 1939. They were annihilated,

Not entirely related to this topic but Nazism has become popular in Russia. As I mentioned in these threads before, skinhead killings, beatings and vandalizing of Synagogues are almost a daily occurrence in Russia today.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 10):
Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 5):
Why are they digging up the old corpses again?

I don't know. Maybe it's a pure coincidence, but the only remotely relevant reason that I can think of is the fact that June 4th is when the final act of communism in C&E Europe began with free elections being held in Poland 20 years ago.
Since according to comrade Putin fall of communism and USSR was the "biggest geopolitical disaster of the 20th century" and Poland has done most of the "heavy lifting" in bringing the regime down in the then-Soviet bloc, ever since the Solidarity strikes in Gdansk shipyards in early 1980s they feel they should spoil the fun to Poles and others by grabbing the attention.
But I could be overstretching it.

I was thinking the same. Even if that were the case, why can't they just let it go? It's all history now.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5743 posts, RR: 19
Reply 12, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 11512 times:



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 7):
That they're putting it out there for consideration, not that it is the position of the state - otherwise the state would say that that was it's position.

Oh come on, that guy is not that stupid to gamble his professional career by making government website an arena where he presents his private opinions. It's hard to think this has been done without an official blessing.
If the guy just wanted to start a debate without the Russian government being implicated in the affair, he would publish an opinion piece in a Russian daily of his choice, The Moscow Times, Foreign Affairs or whatever Russian equivalent there is.


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3551 posts, RR: 17
Reply 13, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 11494 times:
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Never thought i will agree with L410Turbolet, but i think the timing has something behind it. Is Russia blaming Poland for the fall of communism? Is it an act of revenge or is it a prelude for another tension point a la Georgia?


I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 11473 times:



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 7):
Quoting A332 (Reply 3):
So the fact the Russian Defense Ministry posted it means what exactly?


That they're putting it out there for consideration, not that it is the position of the state - otherwise the state would say that that was it's position.

Consideration for what? To somehow revise the brutal history of the Soviet Union during the Second World War? The Nazi's aren't the only one's that slaughtered millions in the war. The USSR killed many Germans, Poles, Slavs, Jews, etc. under Stalin's butchery. They were the ones that divided Poland up with the Germans, only to have Germany turn on them.

I've always said, and I still maintain, that the USSR does not get enough credit in the West for the incredible feat they pulled off on the Eastern Front, but they have their own skeletons, literally, that they hide.

If this is meant to deny that history, and to rewrite it to sooth the conscience of Russians, the rest of the world won't buy it.


User currently offlineIliriBDL From Germany, joined May 2007, 1205 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 11467 times:



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 9):
The amazing fact everyone forgets in this story is that the French and the British who declared war in defence of Poland ended the war after signing away Poland to the Soviet Union.

They ended up giving most of Eastern Europe to Soviet Union, which led to another 40+ years of hard times for people in those countries.



delta.com
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21851 posts, RR: 55
Reply 16, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 11467 times:



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 13):
is it a prelude for another tension point a la Georgia?

The idea that a smaller country can be to blame for starting a massive war because they refused to accept a larger country's "reasonable" demands can't make countries like Georgia feel very comfortable.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 17, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 11442 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
The Russians defending the Nazi's? Who killed how many untold Russians?

Well, the Russians did have a non-aggression pact with the Nazis, which is why they never intervened in Poland until Hitler decided to go ahead with Operation Barbarossa, and the Soviets later crushed the Wehrmacht in Stalingrad.

Poland was responsible for its own fate. They knew what the Nazis wanted, they were aware of the Nazi policy of getting more "Lebensraum" in the East and reconquer lost territories. They had no reason to accept the demands the Nazis made. And also, historical facts show that it was the Nazis who started WWII on September 1st 1939, not the Polish.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 11438 times:



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 17):
Poland was responsible for its own fate.

Germany and Russia were responsible for the fate that befell Poland, not Poland. They were warred on by two much larger nations. Unfortunately, they never got their just revenge on the USSR for helping to carve them up.


User currently offlineIliriBDL From Germany, joined May 2007, 1205 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 11419 times:



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 17):
And also, historical facts show that it was the Nazis who started WWII on September 1st 1939, not the Polish.

WWII started the day the Treaty of Versailles was signed. That's what I think.



delta.com
User currently offlinePhoenix9 From Canada, joined Aug 2007, 2546 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 11414 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 14):
If this is meant to deny that history, and to rewrite it to sooth the conscience of Russians, the rest of the world won't buy it.

Or as they say....Those who forget history are bound to repeat it. WIth the current world climate where states like North Korea, Iran, the general unrest in the middle east, a possibility of civil unrest in Pakistan and Russia starting to oil their military machine again....I sometimes wonder how far we really are from WW-III.



Life only makes sense when you look at it backwards.
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 11410 times:



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 20):
WWII started the day the Treaty of Versailles was signed. That's what I think.

In many ways, you are right. The terms were so crushing to Germany, that it invited the rise of a Hitler, and another conflict. I cannot disagree.


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 22, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 11408 times:



Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 20):
WWII started the day the Treaty of Versailles was signed. That's what I think.

Probably, considering that only the Germans were harshly punished, thus causing all the resent that helped lead to WWII. We have to remember: Officially, it was the Austro-Hungarians who started the "Great War" after Gavrilo Princip assassinated their crown prince Franz-Ferdinand.

Another thing is that the Nazis used November 1918 as part of their propaganda, by using this resent against those who imposed themselves with the most harsh conditions that the Versailles Treaty made to the Germans of the then-young Republic.


User currently offlineOlegShv From Sweden, joined Mar 2006, 683 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 11362 times:

It seems that the Russian government is trying to build up nationalistic moods during the economic hard times, which is an old tried tactic. This is definitely sad.

On the other hand, quote from the Telegraph's article:

Quote:
Germany invaded Poland on Sept 1, 2009, prompting the British Empire and France to declare war over the next two days. Germany and the Soviet Union then carved up Poland under the terms of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

That tells quite a bit about the quality of journalism.

I actually went to the Russian defense ministry website, and they officially state that the articles hosted on their server can be of "debatable nature," and do not reflect the official views of the Russian DoD. This is a link to that statement that also quotes the article mentioned by the Telegraph: http://www.mil.ru/info/1069/details/index.shtml?id=63460

Here is the article in question (I didn't bother reading it yet): Looks like it was published in July of 2008, in the "Journal of Military History", which is actually published by the Russian DoD, and it is meant to disseminate results of historical research and other ongoing issues related to the Russian and foreign military forces.

С.Н. КОВАЛЁВ — Вымыслы и фальсификации в оценках роли ссср накануне и с началом Второй мировой войны

http://www.mil.ru/info/1068/11278/11845/25231/46968/52839/index.shtml

[Edited 2009-06-04 21:11:28]

User currently offlineMillwallSean From Singapore, joined Apr 2008, 1293 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (5 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 11318 times:

Ooh does the main victor of the second world war point out a few points of themselves. To be honest, every country have their own version and interpretations of the world wars. Just go to Britain and you almost reckon that we won the war ourselves.
Americans think they played a great military role in world war I even and as everyone knows that's extremely far from the truth.

World War II was won on the eastern front by the Soviets. We all know this.
But the Soviets used their victory to control countries and people in Eastern Europe and the allies, the ones that just overcame 20% of nazi germanys forces and knew that the Soviets fresh from a victory over 80% of the wehrmacht was not to be messed with. general patton said that only half the job was done. he was right, but there was nothing the west could do about it at that stage.
And under soviet, instead of dealing with the war and its huge aftermaths in Eastern Europe, the conflict was frozen.

This is a Poland, or should I say Poland under the twins, thats been mouthing off to everyone in Europe. This is Poland the main sponsor or the separatist movement in Western ukraine. This is poland Europes only fan of Georgia and the only country in the EU that constantly wants tougher actions against Russia.
Russia is not going to let that pass.

And as it is now, Poland doesn't have support any in Europe.
When Lisbon treaty was negotiated they wanted more, more and more and the reason for it was the second world war.
A poor Poland that only receives subsidies and sends its people abroad "en masse" demanded as many EU parliamentarians as the much more populous and financially contributing countries such as Germany and France. Everyone just shook their heads.
Then they insulted the Germans, the hosts, having a go at them for the second world war.
Poland today is as far out as anyone can get.
They have a new PM but it will take years to repair the damages made.

And a few things to start with if they want anyone to listen to them
Then they refuse to sign the Lisbon-treaty and a few other things. Installing a US missile shield and in general doing their best to disagree with everything their neighbours want.

In general there wont be a queue to assist them with anything at the moment and most countries are rather unhappy at best with Poland.



No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
25 L410Turbolet : The twins have been no more abnoxious than trolls like Chirac, Sarkozy, Schroeder or Berlusconi. beside the fact that you are way off the mark with y
26 RussianJet : Indeed, yet the way many are carrying on you would think it was recently announced as official fact and written into every school book about the seco
27 L-188 : The non-aggression pact was mentioned here earlier, but it really was more then that. Germany and Russia had an agreement to split Poland up prior to
28 Falcon84 : I think he means the war in EUROPE was won by what the USSR did on the Eastern Front, and I cannot argue that point in the least. Remember, we didn't
29 Dtwclipper : Let us not forget that the US supplied ca. 11 billion dollars worth of war matériel to the USSR under the lend lease programme.
30 OlegShv : And about ca. 31 billion dollars worth of goods to Britain. Notice a difference?
31 Dtwclipper : What's your point?
32 LTU932 : The point is that until the invasion of Poland and until the communists took power, it was responsible for its own fate and therefore had to act. The
33 Falcon84 : That is true, but it was in no way the difference-maker for the USSR. Being able to move their factories ever eastward as the Germans got deeper into
34 Mayor : The Italian campaign started almost a year before that in July of '43. I believe that Italy is considered part of the "continent", correct? Besides,
35 Post contains links Dtwclipper : I think you underestimate the importance of our support to the USSR. "Lend-lease aircraft amounted to 18% of all aircraft in the Soviet air forces, 2
36 FlyDeltaJets87 : The soldiers who went into Italy in 1943 would beg to differ Falcon. And it wasn't like we weren't fighting the Germans until then. We were fighting
37 Mayor : It makes you wonder sometimes what European children have been taught about history over the years. We had an exchange student from Denmark that had n
38 RussianJet : First off, Europe isn't one country - the educational experiences throughout the continent vary hugely. Secondly, I bet you any amount of money that
39 Prebennorholm : For sure that isn't typical. But good for her that she became an exchange student in the US. Otherwise I'm not sure the alphabet would be long enough
40 Post contains links MillwallSean : You are of course right, I should have worded it better. The Soviets won the battle against the Nazis for us. The pacific was a very different theatr
41 Mayor : Did the Soviets liberate France? Denmark, Norway, Belgium, The Netherlands, Italy? I'd be hard pressed to actually say that the Soviets "liberated" a
42 Mayor : I was just using the term European to make things simpler and I wasn't trying to condemn the entire continent about their knowledge. If you care to r
43 Mayor : On this particular day June 6th, the 65th anniversary of D-Day, maybe you should think about the Americans, British and Canadians that lost their liv
44 MillwallSean : The point is that 80% of the wehrmacht were fighting on the eastern front. Thats where the battle was won or would have been lost. The Soviets were i
45 Post contains links Baroque : Oi, not everyone. Some remember all too well the struggle of the London Poles and the shock in the west at the imposition of the Lublin government. A
46 Ual777 : Ummm, no they weren't. The Soviets were pushing the Germans out of the western Ukraine in July of 1944. While the ground fighting was far more savage
47 Post contains links Baroque : True but: The Soviet army initiated an offensive into East Prussia in October 1944, but it was temporarily driven back two weeks later. http://en.wik
48 Mayor : Oh, yes.....lets not forget how well Uncle Joe treated his own Jews........as badly or worse than Hitler did. I don't how you can call it liberation
49 RussianJet : They suffered very badly under Stalin, as did other minorities, and I am not for one second any cheerleader of Josef - but you can't seriously by any
50 Mayor : Obviously, not ALL of us know that. I was just making a point and as far as I'm concerned, it is NOT pointless. Many a good man lost his life in that
51 RussianJet : Which is precisely why I stated that both parties played a decisive role and all sides should stop trying to belittle the role of the other instead o
52 Mayor : I wasn't responding so much to your statements, but probably, still, to a certain other member. Thanks, anyway.
53 Baroque : WTF does a Russian attempt to invade E Prussia have to do with where or how much the US fought the war???? Which theories are you on about? Russia di
54 Mayor : Sorry....I put your post in the wrong place......I was using it as proof that the Allied landings had already taken place before the Soviets were in G
55 Post contains links Baroque : No problem. US forces got into part of Aachen before the Germans got into E Prussia. But like E Prussia that turned into a really bloody fight. Anoth
56 Hjulicher : . This is very much true, because amongst Germans, there was a lot of resent for the surrenduring of Germany. Many young, aspiring Germans serving on
57 NA : The Soviet Union surely is not free from guilt for WWII. Hell, the pact meant they swarmed over the Baltic states and half of Poland, killing and imp
58 Mayor : Well, I KNEW they were liberated from the Nazis.........my point was that they went from one dictatorship, directly to another. The only difference w
59 Baroque : And there was that nasty little incident at Katyn.
60 NA : Right. One Devil replaced the other. Only idiots. Real existing democracies might have enough to critisize them for. But they are the best system man
61 LTU932 : Sure, if it wasn't for the Great Depression and the subsequent economic downfall of the Weimar Republic (a country, where it has been barely a few ye
62 L-188 : I think that is the point, The Russians where tying up a hell of a lot of krauts. The Soviets didn't have to cross an ocean to get there either. I go
63 NA : Only because there were a hell lot more Russian soldiers than Tommies and GIs. Untrue. The Russians broke the weakened German front, which was deplet
64 Us330 : This episode brings to mind a joke my high school teacher told us about a Pole in a foxhole, with germans attacking on one side, and Russians from the
65 L410Turbolet : I think this priceless sentence describes it all. Liberation of the CEE Europe was in fact no liberation at all, only a code name for Russian expansi
66 Post contains links VC10 : In 65 posts everybody has talked about which front, the eastern or western, was decisive in winning WW2, however no one has mentioned what was probabl
67 Baroque : Well yes, except that there were so many occasions between then and the Armistice when something better could have been salvaged. If you read the ext
68 Mayor : Oh, but I DID..........................
69 Baroque : And how slow they were to be equipped with centimetric radar and Huff Duff and while they were underequipped compared with the UK and US ships how qu
70 VC10 : My apologize, I obviously missed your posting, but I thought it was important to mention the Battle of the Atlantic and the Canadian contribution to
71 NA : True, absolutely true. And it would have meant the end of the USSR, too, because Hitler could have directed almost every land force towards Stalin. B
72 Baroque : Or not as Clay Blair indicates with his stats! It is true that there were some catastrophic months and disastrous individual convoys, but the overall
73 Post contains images OlegShv : Any Army has a number of criminals in it, but I'm sure the German Army during WWII would take the "worst Rape Army" title without much of a contest.
74 NA : Undoubtedly the Nazis are responsible for most murders in WWI by far, but I said Rape, not Murder. Thats a difference. German soldiers faced the deat
75 OzGlobal : Sounds like a propaganda wave to prepare for some kind of 'pre-emptive' strike on Poland by Russia. They would hit Ukraine too if they could get away
76 RussianJet : You're right of course - one stupid essay amongst hundreds and they're planning on attacking everyone in sight.
77 L-188 : I think that point is pointless. But there are some very nasty stories about the soviets during the invasion of Germany. At best it is a toss up. At
78 OlegShv : There, you said it yourself:
79 OzGlobal : You're right too, of course. There are too many disincentives to unbridled expansionism for Russia. The appetite amounst the large ranks of the old g
80 PanHAM : That is exactly so. And here we are, 64 years later with a European Union where just last weekend 27 different countries have voted a new EU parliame
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