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North Korea Jails US Journalists For 12 Years  
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7694 posts, RR: 21
Posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2696 times:
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6453550.ece

Two American journalists accused of illegally entering North Korea and also of one unspecified "....grave crime" against North Korea have been sentenced to 12 years with hard labour.

Does anyone know what the second alleged crime is? 12 Years is a serious sentence. I know a friend of a friend who also crossed into North Korea illegally, apparently by accident, and was detained for a while but then simply removed from the country. Then again, he wasn't a journalist or American.

What are your reactions to this? Obviously I expect people to generally speak out against the severity of sentence and the credibility of the North Korean nation and legal system, but what do we actually know in terms of facts about this case?


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
58 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17409 posts, RR: 46
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2662 times:

I just saw her last night in another documentary about Mexico drug wars. Maybe this will be another catalyst contributing toward the end of the regime?


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineSW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6311 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2656 times:



Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
Does anyone know what the second alleged crime is? 12 Years is a serious sentence.

It was the maximum sentence for the crime at hand.

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
Then again, he wasn't a journalist or American.

And he probably was not making an anti-DPRK report at the time too. These women were, and it pissed the North Koreans off...that combined with the obvious political ramifications led to the heavy sentence.

The question that most of us will likely never know is - did they actually cross the border, or did the DPRK cross into China to get them? Like I said, only a few people will probably ever really know...the women will always say they were in China, and the DPRK will always say they were in the DPRK, so who knows...

I think the odds of them spending much time in prison are very small...the USA will get them out somehow, someway.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2588 times:



Quoting SW733 (Reply 2):
I think the odds of them spending much time in prison are very small...the USA will get them out somehow, someway.

And they should! If not, I hope that the U.S. retaliates harshly on the North Korean government.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7694 posts, RR: 21
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2585 times:
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Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 3):
And they should! If not, I hope that the U.S. retaliates harshly on the North Korean government

Aren't we making a whole heap of judgements here without being in posession of the facts? If (and I say IF) these ladies broke North Korean law, why should they not face punishment in that country? If the reverse happened and a North Korean committed offences in the USA, would we be saying that Korea should retaliate harshly if a punishment was forthcoming?

I realise there is much to case doubt on the credibility of the case against these women, but face it - I don't think any of us really know whether they did anything wrong or not, so how can we be suddenly calling for retaliation??



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineSW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6311 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2582 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 3):
And they should! If not, I hope that the U.S. retaliates harshly on the North Korean government.

Why? If they broke a law by illegally crossing into North Korea (maybe they did, maybe they didn't, it's he said she said right now), they are subject to North Korean laws...why should North Korea be punished for enforcing their own laws in their own country, as they say they are doing?


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2559 times:

Dont forget that the North Koreans are very unpredictable in what they are doing nowadays. They are probably doing this to make a point well known with the world. I highly doubt that these girls entered into North Korea illegally, but I wonder how the government proved otherwise.

IMO, North Korea is asking for trouble, not only in this situation....but in pretty much everything. And they know it.



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User currently offlineZootrix From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 86 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2559 times:

Sorry, but its quite silly of these two to have gone there on the pretext of reporting. You quite well know what you are dealing with when it comes to N. Korea; esp journalists.

User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7694 posts, RR: 21
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2559 times:
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Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 6):
I highly doubt that these girls entered into North Korea illegally

Why?



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2545 times:



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 8):
Why?

Considering that the girls are U.S. citizens, they are not that stupid given the economical climate that is going on in that region. Therefore they were convicted only because they were U.S. citizens regardless if they broke the laws or not. So the North is making an example of these girls not to screw around with them. In other words, it is a political statement.

So we will never know what REALLY happened...... the North Koreans are a one sided story type of people.

Personally, I would not even want to be around the North Korea border for any reason because of the BS that the North has been pulling these days.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineBlrsea From India, joined May 2005, 1421 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2540 times:

If the two women entered N Korea legally, wouldn't their employers or anyone else know about it? their parents, close friends etc ?

You can never trust these journalists too. Many of them are willing to go to any lengths to get a scoop and further their careers.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7694 posts, RR: 21
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2536 times:
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Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 9):
they are not that stupid

Why not? How do we know? Journalists sometimes do very stupid things in the pursuit of a good story or furthering a career. Maybe they were spying. The US does that too, you know. Point is, we do not know.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 9):
Therefore they were convicted only because they were U.S. citizens

There are no facts upon which to base such an assertion. It is pure speculation and should not be stated as fact.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 9):
the North Koreans are a one sided story type of people.

Is the version you put forward not a little one-sided also?



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineCasInterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4564 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2534 times:



Quoting SW733 (Reply 5):
Why? If they broke a law by illegally crossing into North Korea (maybe they did, maybe they didn't, it's he said she said right now), they are subject to North Korean laws...why should North Korea be punished for enforcing their own laws in their own country, as they say they are doing?

Yeah, let's not punish a corrupt country that can't even feed it's own citizens, develops Nuclear arms in violation of international agreements and controls all media.


There is no due process in North Korea, and the leadership survives only by convincing the starving masses that they are under immenint threat of attack.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineSW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6311 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2533 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 9):
Considering that the girls are U.S. citizens, they are not that stupid given the economical climate that is going on in that region. Therefore they were convicted only because they were U.S. citizens regardless if they broke the laws or not.

Oh, ok. Thank you...apparently nobody else knows the facts but you do. Case closed.

I have met a LOT of stupid Americans, sorry to say...these two could be more of them. Holding a US passport does not make you smart.


User currently offlineSW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6311 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2530 times:



Quoting CasInterest (Reply 12):
Yeah, let's not punish a corrupt country that can't even feed it's own citizens, develops Nuclear arms in violation of international agreements and controls all media.

I am not defending North Korea on any of those counts, they are horrible and their leader is a jerk to say the least. But, the fact is that those are not the topics in question...the topic in question is a possible illegal border crossing, and that is what I am discussing.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7694 posts, RR: 21
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2526 times:
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Quoting CasInterest (Reply 12):
Yeah, let's not punish a corrupt country that can't even feed it's own citizens, develops Nuclear arms in violation of international agreements and controls all media.

What does this have to do with punishing a country for convicting someone of illegally entering its territory? (and of one other, unspecified offence)



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2518 times:



Quoting SW733 (Reply 13):
Oh, ok. Thank you...apparently nobody else knows the facts but you do. Case closed.

I didn't say that I knew all the facts in the case. I said it appears to be the case because they were convicted solely because they were U.S. citizens and made a scapegoat of them. That is MY opinion.

Quoting SW733 (Reply 13):
I have met a LOT of stupid Americans, sorry to say...these two could be more of them. Holding a US passport does not make you smart.

I never said that. I said that these girls would not be stupid enough to break another countries laws. But I do agree that some Americans can be real stupid. But these girls are not.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 15):
What does this have to do with punishing a country for convicting someone of illegally entering its territory?

I was about to ask the same thing, you beat me to it.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7694 posts, RR: 21
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2512 times:
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Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 16):
some Americans can be real stupid. But these girls are not.

In terms of pure intelligence you may well be right. In terms of whether or not they might take a silly risk, who knows?



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2502 times:



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 17):
In terms of whether or not they might take a silly risk, who knows?

I also considered that as well.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7694 posts, RR: 21
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2493 times:
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Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 18):
I also considered that as well.

So what do you know about them that we don't that definitely, 100% positively means that they could never do anything foolish or make a mistake?



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2483 times:



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 19):

Like I said, I considered the notion that they probably have made a mistake, but I really don't think they did make any mistake nor did they enter illegally.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7694 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2479 times:
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Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 20):
but I really don't think they did make any mistake nor did they enter illegally.

So we're back to where I suspected we were all along - that there is nothing whatsoever to base such an assumption on and they may well have done what they're accused of but we just don't know.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2474 times:



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 21):

I don't think you understand where I am coming from, and that's fine.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineCasInterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4564 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2469 times:



Quoting SW733 (Reply 14):
not defending North Korea on any of those counts, they are horrible and their leader is a jerk to say the least. But, the fact is that those are not the topics in question...the topic in question is a possible illegal border crossing, and that is what I am discussing.

My point was being made with my second statement. I was only responding to your punishment claim,


North Korea is a dictatorship regime filled with corruption. They have no due process and no real relations other than to make political statements to the rest of the world.

Their "closed courthroom" for an international incident is a mockery of international law.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2465 times:



Quoting CasInterest (Reply 23):
North Korea is a dictatorship regime filled with corruption. They have no due process and no real relations other than to make political statements to the rest of the world.

 checkmark  Thank you. That was the whole point I was getting at and trying to explain to RussianJet.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
25 RussianJet : Well perhaps you could enlighten us then? On the balance of probabilities you may be right, but there can be no certainty. Other than expressing a hu
26 AirframeAS : See Reply # 23.
27 RussianJet : So my point stands. North Korea has a dubious criminal system and a hatred of the US, but we still do not know that these women did not commit offenc
28 PlymSpotter : Well this serves them right fo wandering across the river. As a whole, journalists need to learn a little respect, tact, and common sense which so oft
29 AirframeAS : I believe that was the whole point to the trial regardless if the women committed the offense or not, they had no chance of a fair trial...period.
30 RussianJet : Whilst one can argue it is likely, it is by no means a fact, and it is also not a fact that we know they are innocent - because we do not.
31 AirframeAS : Because the North Korean government will not admit to the real facts of what really happened. But it does not take much to figure out what really hap
32 PlymSpotter : There are border guards on both sides of the river, a hell of a lot on the Chinese side, mainly to stop the illegal immigration and smuggling of item
33 RussianJet : We're probably going to have to just disagree on this. I see where you're coming from, but just because of the agendas on both sides and the harsh re
34 AirframeAS : I'll agree to disagree. But it is still pretty obvious.... Think about it....
35 RussianJet : It is a strong possibility, I have already admitted - but my final word would be to say that let's not pretend that both sides in this don't have an
36 Mal787 : This has been a somewhat 2 way discussion at this stage. But I cant see any where in any post the question & answer that starts the whole thing off. W
37 PlymSpotter : As quoted from the news article: "They were conducting research for a film about the many poor North Koreans who sneak into China to work, trade and
38 Post contains links RussianJet : Another related article - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8090543.stm "Their trial was held amid growing tensions over North Korea's nuc
39 Asuflyer05 : Such a publicity stunt. Shame the two journalists have to suffer.[Edited 2009-06-08 23:42:46]
40 Mal787 : thanks PlySpottter I must admit i did not read the article i based my coments as supplied by early news here in OZ. my bad mal787
41 RussianJet : So they definitely didn't do anything wrong? Where are the facts to back up that premise? Maybe, just maybe, they did in fact break the law - but ins
42 MD11Engineer : At the East- / West German border during Cold War, the border fortifications (Berlin Wall, barbed wire fence / mine fields etc.) were often located up
43 RussianJet : So they definitely didn't do anything wrong? Where are the facts to back up that premise? Maybe, just maybe, they did in fact break the law - but ins
44 Post contains links MillwallSean : Sometimes Americans bewilder me. Do you seriously think these are two innocent girls that just happened to be on the wrong side of the border between
45 PlymSpotter : Very interesting Jan, the article would suggest that the border they crossed was a frozen river - not too hard to deduce which side is which really.
46 MD11Engineer : Even then. West Berlin, where I grew up during the Cold War (I was 22 years old when the Wall came down), there were several river borders (alnog the
47 Victrola : Does anyone have a description of the border area where they were supposedly caught? If the border is a river, it should be obvious where one country
48 PlymSpotter : There's a description in the article. The borders are pretty defined and don't shift any more than a regular river; one of my friends went to North K
49 TheCol : If they survive that long... That pretty much sums it up.
50 Speedbirdie : May I ask a question? I have been following this case on skynews quite a bit and I am intrigued at the part where everyone says 'they entered the coun
51 AirframeAS : That is the point I was trying to make to everyone. These girls are not stupid as some folks on this thread seem to think otherwise. There has got to
52 PlymSpotter : The majority of the border, including where they crossed, is a river - there can be no mistake about which side is which. At all the crossing points
53 Blrsea : You can't have border control all across the entire border. Usually, you have border controls at all roads which lead into the country. Here, the lad
54 SW733 : And not even all of them. There are tons of little roads that just cross the border like it's a new neighborhood. Some/many (all?) have little outpos
55 Post contains links NoUFO : I don't care if those two women are "guilty" or not. The judicial system in North Korea is so corrupt and abusing even the most basic human rights, th
56 FlyDeltaJets87 : For which part of me says I'm glad this was the outcome, because it just shows that a country like North Korea is not rational on simple things and t
57 Danfearn77 : No we dont. And i agree with you. We dont know the facts... But i think what AirFrameAS is trying to say is, he wouldnt be surprised if the North Kor
58 AirframeAS : You are correct. That is exactly what I was driving at in both points.
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