OA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 17542 posts, RR: 54 Reply 1, posted (7 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3601 times:
I dont think they should ban it but it should be banned from the work place. If you want to wear it when you are not working then thats fine. What they do in their private time is their business.
The issue I have is where they demand to wear it when at work or school. In that case maybe they would be better off in a country where the Burka is a norm.
Blackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 2, posted (7 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3584 times:
Granted, I personally believe that it's wrong for women to be FORCED to wear burkas in public, but I don't think it's such a good idea to BAN people from wearing certain articles of clothing in public either...
Aircatalonia From Spain, joined Nov 2007, 480 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (7 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3568 times:
This is a difficult issue. Myself, I don't what to think. On the one hand, I agree with what he says about the burkas. But on the other hand, it's never too good to start banning things and telling people how to dress... That's, in fact, what they do in the countries where they wear burkas...
Anyway my opinion is that these issues should be addressed in a EU-wide perspective. The EU is not a muslim country, and we should all agree how to deal with these customs. After all if it is an issue of "primordial" women's rights, it doesn't make much sense to me that such things are banned in Paris and not in Brussels.
Blackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 5, posted (7 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3544 times:
Air Catalonia,
Quote: But on the other hand, it's never too good to start banning things and telling people how to dress... That's, in fact, what they do in the countries where they wear burkas...
IliriBDL From Germany, joined May 2007, 1049 posts, RR: 20 Reply 7, posted (7 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3527 times:
Quoting Blackbird (Reply 6): Where does it end though? Should it be banned for a person to wear a Crux or a Shield of David around their neck?
Sure, ban anything that shows your religion, I wouldn't mind it. But talking about wearing a cross (or the muslim version of the half moon), you can just tuck it under the shirt (or whatever your wearing) and no one will see it. Wearing a burka on the other hand is a different story, I have nothing against them but in the western world, we like to know who we're talking to, and be able to see the person as whole, I'm not saying go around in shorts and shirts all the time, but at least try and be western.
The Balkans should be a model for all the other muslims in Europe. You wouldn't even know Bosnia and Kosovo (and Albania to some extent) are muslim majority by seeing their people, or walking through towns. (well the mosques give it away lol)
Too bloody right it isn't I personally think all further immigration from Muslim countries should be stopped, excessive amounts of immigration has already changed the very fabric of Europe, any more and it won't be European anymore.
Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 4): Should be banned from work and school, that's my opinion, keep religion at home.
Completely agree, religion should be private, it should stay in the home and in your church, religion has no place in public schools, politics and in the workplace.
I'm happy Sarkozy is doing something about it, our europe, our rules if you don't like it leave.
Flighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 4813 posts, RR: 3 Reply 9, posted (7 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3500 times:
Quoting Blackbird (Reply 2): Granted, I personally believe that it's wrong for women to be FORCED to wear burkas in public, but I don't think it's such a good idea to BAN people from wearing certain articles of clothing in public either...
Right.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 8): excessive amounts of immigration has already changed the very fabric of Europe, any more and it won't be European anymore.
Europe was headed for extinction. They desperately need immigrants because their citizens refuse to have babies. Immigration is the only was to survive as a society... and you are right, it won't be "European" as we know it. This is due to the choices of the Europeans, who do not want to take the time to raise children.
IliriBDL From Germany, joined May 2007, 1049 posts, RR: 20 Reply 11, posted (7 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3462 times:
Quoting OA260 (Reply 10): There are some dangerous Islamic fundamentalists there
I agree, it's disturbing what the Wahhabi are trying to do there and in parts of Macedonia (Tetovo region), trying to make them strict, female can't go to school after 8th grade, don't listen to music, and stuff like that.
Hopefully they don't succeed, that's why the EU needs to do more to integrate these countries in the Balkans.
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 2894 posts, RR: 9 Reply 12, posted (7 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3444 times:
Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 7): Sure, ban anything that shows your religion, I wouldn't mind it. But talking about wearing a cross (or the muslim version of the half moon), you can just tuck it under the shirt (or whatever your wearing) and no one will see it. Wearing a burka on the other hand is a different story, I have nothing against them but in the western world, we like to know who we're talking to, and be able to see the person as whole, I'm not saying go around in shorts and shirts all the time, but at least try and be western.
Agreed. I don't really mind seeing women dressed in a hijab. But walking around with a bag over your head is just wrong and offensive on several levels. Don't do it here.
Now we know why Obama won't release his school records. Bush got C's, Obama failed lunch! We should have stuck with Hill
OA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 17542 posts, RR: 54 Reply 13, posted (7 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3432 times:
Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 11): Hopefully they don't succeed, that's why the EU needs to do more to integrate these countries in the Balkans.
Ironic thing is within the EU they would probably have more rights The Bosnian government needs to crush these idiots with the help of Europe if need be. Most Bosnian Women dont want to be covered up in sheets.
Only last week Greek Police recovered weapons on the border of Macedonia and FYROM which was apparantly on the way to Islamic extremists.
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 1267 posts, RR: 2 Reply 14, posted (7 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3395 times:
Quoting Flighty (Reply 9): Europe was headed for extinction. They desperately need immigrants because their citizens refuse to have babies. Immigration is the only was to survive as a society... and you are right, it won't be "European" as we know it. This is due to the choices of the Europeans, who do not want to take the time to raise children.
The problem is where they have taken the immigrants from. We got the wrong kind.
Tugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1985 posts, RR: 2 Reply 15, posted (7 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3338 times:
Quoting Blackbird (Reply 6): Should it be banned for a person to wear a Crux or a Shield of David around their neck?
The French already ban such things, in 2004 they passed a law banning wearing the Muslim head scarf at public schools, along with Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses.
I personally don't think it intrudes too far into any territory that societies don't already go. You could compare this to the exact opposite extreme, nudity, which is in general banned in public.
So you can not be completely uncovered or completely, unidentifiably, covered.
Tugg
everything I have learned I have learned by mistake
FRAspotter From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1896 posts, RR: 8 Reply 16, posted (7 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3320 times:
Quoting Tugger (Reply 15): The French already ban such things, in 2004 they passed a law banning wearing the Muslim head scarf at public schools, along with Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses.
I personally don't think it intrudes too far into any territory that societies don't already go. You could compare this to the exact opposite extreme, nudity, which is in general banned in public.
So you can not be completely uncovered or completely, unidentifiably, covered.
Tugg
When I first heard about the issues France was having with women wearing burkas was in the news a few years ago. There was a great big fuss over a women not being allowed to have her drivers license photo with a burka on. She claimed that it was part of her religion. The Driving officials said that it was a security issue. I would have to agree with the driving officials. The whole point of having a picture with the drivers license is to show that it is you that the license was issued to. I didn't keep up with the news enough to see the outcome of the court ruling but I can imagine it went against the woman...
"I wish that my lawn were emo, that way it would cut itself..."
Falstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3800 posts, RR: 26 Reply 17, posted (7 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3295 times:
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 8): Too bloody right it isn't I personally think all further immigration from Muslim countries should be stopped, excessive amounts of immigration has already changed the very fabric of Europe, any more and it won't be European anymore
I couldn't have said it better myself. I see a lot of Muslims here in Metro Detroit, but last year I spent some time in Leeds, England and I could believe how many I saw. The way they were dressed made them really stick out. I see lots of western dresses Arabic people in metro Detroit and I wouldn't have any idea if they were Muslims or not by looking at their clothes. But in England I saw lot of people that were wearing their religion and wanted everyone to see it.
As far as those that want to say that wearing a cross or Star of David is the same as a burka it is not. The star of David, a cross, or a Crescent is a symbol of a religion. A burka is not, if all Muslim women wore them then I would say it was.
Blackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (7 months 3 weeks ago) and read 3139 times:
IliriBDW
Quote: Sure, ban anything that shows your religion, I wouldn't mind it. But talking about wearing a cross (or the muslim version of the half moon), you can just tuck it under the shirt (or whatever your wearing) and no one will see it.
Personally, I don't think this is a good idea as I think people should be allowed to practice whatever religion they choose. I also do not believe people should be banned for wearing a religious icon in public.
The whole idea for having a separation between religion and government was to prevent abuses which often happened in the past between government and religion, and to prevent the government from persecuting people for their religious beliefs, including the lack of religious beliefs.
This actually crosses the line and actually constitutes a form of persecution -- people being forced to hide their beliefs unless they want to get in trouble...
Tugger,
Quote: The French already ban such things, in 2004 they passed a law banning wearing the Muslim head scarf at public schools, along with Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses.
Which I personally think is bad, as while I am an atheist and generally view religions as being basically fairy-tales for adults, I still think people should have the right to believe what they want without interference from the government.
Quote: I personally don't think it intrudes too far into any territory that societies don't already go. You could compare this to the exact opposite extreme, nudity, which is in general banned in public.
I actually don't see any problem with public nudity, although there are certain climates and weather conditions where I would not want to be naked in (i.e. Arctic conditions), not to mention the fact that some people look really ugly naked but that's an entirely different issue.
Vikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3965 posts, RR: 25 Reply 20, posted (7 months 3 weeks ago) and read 3137 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
Agreed. I don't really mind seeing women dressed in a hijab. But walking around with a bag over your head is just wrong and offensive on several levels. Don't do it here.
How is it offensive to you? Just wondering, as I don't find it offensive at all.
Fabrics of societies change over time. In my opinion, it's up to each one of us to keep our culture alive within our family. I don't personally have much need for typical American culture to go on forever. After all, individual people may disagree about what constitutes American culture in the first place.
Quoting Falstaff (Reply 17): As far as those that want to say that wearing a cross or Star of David is the same as a burka it is not. The star of David, a cross, or a Crescent is a symbol of a religion. A burka is not, if all Muslim women wore them then I would say it was.
Not all Christian or Jewish people wear a cross or a Star of David.
The spirit of Massachusetts is the spirit of America!
Cadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 757 posts, RR: 6 Reply 21, posted (7 months 3 weeks ago) and read 3125 times:
Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter): He even suggests that a commision be established to determine whether they should be banned in public.
Quoting Blackbird (Reply 6): Where does it end though? Should it be banned for a person to wear a Crux or a Shield of David around their neck?
The problem with burkas is that while they are religious in nature, they help to conceal identity. When one wears them, you cannot see hair color, and on some of them, you can only see the eyes. Honestly, if I owned a store and someone came in wearing a burka, I would ask them to leave, or take it off. I'm not against one practicing their religion, but if I can't see someone't face (or if they wear the whole get-up), there is nothing to identify them by in the even they commit a crime.
A person's right to express their religion should end when it could interfere with the common good. I remember a case (can't find a website) where a state refused to give someone a drivers license because they would not take off a burka. The reason they were denied is because it is impossible to identify someone visually simply by skin color and eyes.
Blackbird, in terms of your question, a cross or a Star of David can be worn as ornaments on a necklace. I wear a Star of David. Why ban that? Wearing one of those does not conceal my identity. Even if I wear a Yarmulke, part of my hair is covered, but only a small part.
MadameConcorde From Antigua and Barbuda, joined Feb 2007, 5140 posts, RR: 27 Reply 22, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3100 times:
If France accepts muslim immigration they must accept everything that goes with it including extremes. It would make no sense otherwise. Otherwise they might just as well ban islam from the country as a whole.
The French governments knew very well that islam has several branches more or less extreme so they should have dealt with this ffrom the very beginning when they accepted whole muslim families --including polygamous families-- to move in with the workers in the late 70's early 80's when there was no such things as burkas or even hijabs on the streets of France.
The more restrictive the governments get the more hidden things will get and the more revolt it will create from those who put their religion forward and visible including on the streets and work place. If they accept the islamic immigration they better get used to it. The radical muslims will not change their lifestyle to please the French government.
There was a better way to fly. It was called Concorde.
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 1267 posts, RR: 2 Reply 24, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3041 times:
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 21): A person's right to express their religion should end when it could interfere with the common good. I remember a case (can't find a website) where a state refused to give someone a drivers license because they would not take off a burka. The reason they were denied is because it is impossible to identify someone visually simply by skin color and eyes.
A very similar situation happened recently in France when a burka wearing women applied for citizenship and a passport, she had been living in France for quite some time but couldn't speak French, didn't work, didn't go to school, she was turned down because she was of no use to Frewnch society and had never even attempted to intergrate. IF people what to move to another country they must accept the customes and rules of that country, if not don't move.
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 22): The radical muslims will not change their lifestyle to please the French government.
Then the French govt should remove them from France, it would probably make the vast majority of French people very happy to see the backs of them.
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 2894 posts, RR: 9 Reply 25, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3040 times:
Quoting Blackbird (Reply 18): Which I personally think is bad, as while I am an atheist and generally view religions as being basically fairy-tales for adults, I still think people should have the right to believe what they want without interference from the government.
Nobody is denying that. The burka has nothing to do with what you believe in your head.
Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 20): How is it offensive to you? Just wondering, as I don't find it offensive at all.
But the burka is a sign of absolute subjugation of women. She is not allowed to interact or even be seen by people outside the family. It is based on the idea that the mere sight of a woman's flesh, even an ankle will cause men to loose control and want to rape her (and in some muslim countries, such an incident would be considered HER fault). I find the whole concept offensive, that we are nothing more than base uncivilized animals with no control or responsibility over our actions.
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 21): The problem with burkas is that while they are religious in nature, they help to conceal identity. When one wears them, you cannot see hair color, and on some of them, you can only see the eyes.
Aparently that is how people like Bin Ladin get around without being recognized.
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 22): If France accepts muslim immigration they must accept everything that goes with it including extremes. It would make no sense otherwise. Otherwise they might just as well ban islam from the country as a whole.
So are you saying, accept everything or ban them entirely? You don't think there can be a compromise with the idea of integrating immigrants into society? The burka is a sign that (some) muslims don't want their women to integrate anywhere.
Now we know why Obama won't release his school records. Bush got C's, Obama failed lunch! We should have stuck with Hill
Offloaded From Gibraltar, joined Apr 2009, 276 posts, RR: 0 Reply 26, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3100 times:
I am generally not in favour of governments banning this, that or the other. Freedom works both ways. It is clearly ridiculous for passports or driving licences to show a covered face though.
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
AirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 501 posts, RR: 25 Reply 27, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3077 times:
Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 4):
Should be banned from work and school, that's my opinion, keep religion at home.
I agree! I think such symbols are just to make a statement to show other people you are part of a group, it's the same thing with other religions as well. Keep religion at home and don't go advertising with it in public, thank you!
Yellowstone From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2468 posts, RR: 11 Reply 29, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3061 times:
Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 27): Keep religion at home and don't go advertising with it in public, thank you!
In the US, any laws to that effect would violate the First Amendment - free exercise of religion, remember.
The concept of hell as a place of eternal fiery damnation is thermodynamically unsound.
David L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8402 posts, RR: 41 Reply 30, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3052 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25): Nobody is denying that. The burka has nothing to do with what you believe in your head.
I'm still not convinced the burka has a lot to do with religion. Yes, it's often associated with Islam but, as far as I know, it comes from the culture of some groups who happen to be Muslim and not from Islam itself. The same seems to be true of many/most of the restrictions imposed on women by some ethnic groups that happen to be predominately Muslim. I don't think Islam has anything against women driving or going to university. Claiming that a dislike/distrust of the burka infringes people's religious rights is stretching things a bit... in my opinion.
Aero145 From Iceland, joined Jan 2005, 2663 posts, RR: 32 Reply 33, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3013 times:
I’m surprised that nobody has mentioned this:
I don’t mind muslims having their things on, but burkas - no! Is it fair, that you can be seen by the women wearing burkas, but you cannot see them?
I sometimes wear a full face ”hat” when I’m cycling and it is freezing cold outside, but if the police stops me, I of course remove the hat.
If the police would stop a woman wearing a burka, would she take it off? I doubt it.
I’m fine with everything except the niqab and burqa.
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 2894 posts, RR: 9 Reply 36, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2989 times:
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 34): Same here - they're like something from the "uncivilized worlds" costume department on the original series of Star Trek.
I think of them as being treated as lepers.
Now we know why Obama won't release his school records. Bush got C's, Obama failed lunch! We should have stuck with Hill
AM744 From Mexico, joined Jun 2001, 1313 posts, RR: 0 Reply 37, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2983 times:
Quoting OA260 (Reply 1): I dont think they should ban it but it should be banned from the work place.
Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 4): Should be banned from work and school
I don't see that working beyond public offices and shools. That would be enough, though, to make clear the position of the French State regarding this issue.
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 22): If France accepts muslim immigration they must accept everything that goes with it including extremes.
Exactly. If the can sort of point fingers to people who are already in France, why not open the door selectively to prospective immigrants? I'd bet tens of thousands of Latin American would go to France if it was reasonable to do so. After all, they are already Catholic and speak a Romance language fairly similar to French (A Spanish speaker can get proficient in French in two years. I bet less if immersed in a Francophone environment). So the integration process has already started from the get go. Specific treaties can be signed with specific countries. I think Ecuador and Spain have some sort of agreement.
ImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 726 posts, RR: 15 Reply 38, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2975 times:
Falstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3800 posts, RR: 26 Reply 39, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2977 times:
Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 20): Not all Christian or Jewish people wear a cross or a Star of David.
Exactly. I am a church going Christian and have been all my life and I don't wear a cross. A lot of Muslim woman don't wear a burka either. The cross, star or crescent is a symbol of the religion. When I drive by a church I usually see a cross on it. When I drive by a Synagogue I see the Star of David. When I drive by a Mosque I see a crecent, not a burka hanging on the side of the building.
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 28): hat pink (Croatian) driving licence is most likely a fake... or is it the New Jersey one?
I think they are both fake because the eyes are covered in both pictures. Even a Burka has open spots to see. If it didn't woman would bum;p into stuff all day. Plus you have to be able to see to drive.
Quoting Aero145 (Reply 33): I'm fine with everything except the niqab and burqa.
Those are bad. The Hijab is what I most commonly see in Detroit,
OA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 17542 posts, RR: 54 Reply 40, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2971 times:
Quoting Offloaded (Reply 26): am generally not in favour of governments banning this, that or the other.
That just takes the p@@s. Right of abode/assylum/residency and any government issued document should be automatically refused to anyone who wishes to have their photo like that in their passport/driving license. etc...
Incitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 2791 posts, RR: 21 Reply 41, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2969 times:
Burkas are not a religious issue. Western civilization places a high value on people interacting by showing their faces: Eyes, mouth, forehead expressions and so on. If I covered my head and went into a public place I would be regarded as a loony anti-social. Or a potential thief. Why should it be justifiable because of religion?
If being so off the ordinary like being completely covered because of religion should be acceptable, then public nakedness because of someone's religion should be acceptable too.
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 2894 posts, RR: 9 Reply 42, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2972 times:
Quoting Falstaff (Reply 39): I think they are both fake because the eyes are covered in both pictures. Even a Burka has open spots to see. If it didn't woman would bum;p into stuff all day. Plus you have to be able to see to drive.
You are thinking of the Chadri which allows for eye slits. The Burka is head-to-toe covered, with only a meshed area to see through.
I read some time ago a UN study that was done in Afghanistan that indicated that 97% of women who wore the Burqa showed signs of severe depression. That's hardly surprising when you are the denied the ability to interact with other human beings.
Now we know why Obama won't release his school records. Bush got C's, Obama failed lunch! We should have stuck with Hill
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 1267 posts, RR: 2 Reply 43, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2969 times:
Quoting AM744 (Reply 37): Exactly. If the can sort of point fingers to people who are already in France, why not open the door selectively to prospective immigrants? I'd bet tens of thousands of Latin American would go to France if it was reasonable to do so. After all, they are already Catholic and speak a Romance language fairly similar to French (A Spanish speaker can get proficient in French in two years. I bet less if immersed in a Francophone environment). So the integration process has already started from the get go. Specific treaties can be signed with specific countries. I think Ecuador and Spain have some sort of agreement.
Like the UK, France got stuck with a lot of poor quality immigrants as remnants of its colonial empire, they were stuck with them whether they wanted them or didn't. Hell even in NZ we are stuck with a bunch of Pacific Islanders who offer very little to society but we have to take them because many were born in times past when NZ was there colonial masters, they are entitled to a NZ passport and citizenship..
AM744 From Mexico, joined Jun 2001, 1313 posts, RR: 0 Reply 44, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2941 times:
Quoting AM744 (Reply 37): I'd bet tens of thousands of Latin American would go to France if it was reasonable to do so. After all, they are already Catholic and speak a Romance language fairly similar to French (A Spanish speaker can get proficient in French in two years. I bet less if immersed in a Francophone environment).
I forgot to mention that I have read a couple of academic papers on how Latin Americans integrate fairly well to Quebec (no ghettos or specific neighborhoods, no stereotyping, willing to speak French). It helps that most of them have a middle class, professional background. Couldn't that work for France?
My point is that is a workforce akin to European culture and language willing to go if the right conditions are met. I understand though, that there might me some sort of post colonial era agreements that make it easier for French ex-colonies citizens' to migrate. But even so, laws can always be changed, right?
Mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 4709 posts, RR: 60 Reply 45, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2934 times:
Thanks Aero145 for posting this:
Many of us down where I am don't know the various terms... they just know "headscarf".
Quoting OA260 (Reply 1): I dont think they should ban it but it should be banned from the work place.
I agree... over here, Burqas and Niqabs are not allowed in public offices. 20 years ago, companies tried to ban all forms of "female headgear", which didn't go very far in the courts... Shaylas are part of our tradition... and we see the hijab as a modernized conservative version. In the end, only Niqabs and Burqas are banned from government workplaces... and companies followed suit.
Schools however, bans all except for Khimar for students, as the khimar is the only Islamic headgear that won't interfere with sports, and has a lower accidental fire risk than the Al-Amira, Shayla, and Hijab... (yes, fire risk was a stated risk)... and if you don't want to comply, then take it off. Some Islamic schools even do not allow female headgear in sports. Most hoever allow up to Khimar... the schools are not allowed to force any female religious headgear other than the Khimar.
And teachers may use any but Niqab & Burqa... teachers with Chador tends to be in conservative schools only.
Some mosques here actually don't welcome Niqabs and Burqas... it is seen as a sign of extremeism and/or hardline conservatism.
There was a case here I think about 2 years ago, about a kindergarten teacher trying to sue her school for firing her after she started wearing the Niqab... school's reason... "The kids started calling in sick and the parents began to take their children elsewhere!"... The funny thing was, the kids families were relatively "conservative" by our standards! (Previously the school didn't want to raise the issue for fear of reprisals by the conservatives... ironically).
Quoting OA260 (Reply 1): In that case maybe they would be better off in a country where the Burka is a norm.
Don't bother coming to my place with the most number of Muslims in a country... Burqas not welcomed...
Quoting Blackbird (Reply 6): Where does it end though? Should it be banned for a person to wear a Crux or a Shield of David around their neck?
The social rules of "modest exhibition of faith" can apply... necklaces, bracelets are OK... be it Crucifix, Crescent, Sanksript Hindhu writings, and even... the Star of David... (there's a church here using the symbol of a cross inside the star of David...)
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 22): The French governments knew very well that islam has several branches more or less extreme so they should have dealt with this ffrom the very beginning when they accepted whole muslim families --including polygamous families-- to move in with the workers in the late 70's early 80's when there was no such things as burkas or even hijabs on the streets of France.
I wonder if France dares to ban several Islamic movements... *evil grin*
Quoting David L (Reply 30): I'm still not convinced the burka has a lot to do with religion. Yes, it's often associated with Islam but, as far as I know, it comes from the culture of some groups who happen to be Muslim and not from Islam itself.
That is correct. Islamic dress for women is always a contentious issue. Over here, we have difficulty in defining and accepting the Niqab & Burqa, and to a lesser extent the Chador. We have a word that basically is used to describe Khimar, Al-Amira, Shayla and Niqab... that is "head cover"... Several extremists and conservatives have tried to argue that the word applies to Niqab & Burqa, to which we said, "that's "BODY COVER""... some goes further with "Islam isn't about carrying a blanket wherever you go! Blankets are for sleeping"
(Families of Saudi nationalities are of course, permitted to wear their Niqabs, especially when accompanying their husbands on official duties).
The most the average conservative here would go to is "cover your head and wear loose clothing to hide your body shape, but do not hide your face otherwise people do not know who you are."
The funny thing is, we got girls wearing the Khimar or Almira and tight clothing! LOL...
As for my view on France...
Quoting Tugger (Reply 15): The French already ban such things, in 2004 they passed a law banning wearing the Muslim head scarf at public schools, along with Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses.
That's "fair treatment"
Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
Cadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 757 posts, RR: 6 Reply 46, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2910 times:
Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 29): In the US, any laws to that effect would violate the First Amendment - free exercise of religion, remember
If a law restricting burka wear was ever passed, it would almost certainly end up at the US Supreme Court under the First Amendment. However, I believe any potential law regarding this issue would be upheld. Yes, people have the right to practice religion, but not when it could potentially put others at risk.
David L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8402 posts, RR: 41 Reply 47, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2899 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 42): I read some time ago a UN study that was done in Afghanistan that indicated that 97% of women who wore the Burqa showed signs of severe depression.
Insufficient data. Are they depressed because they wear the burka or do they wear the burka because they're depressed?
Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 45): teachers with Chador tends to be in conservative schools only.
We call them "nuns" and "convents" here.
Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 45): The most the average conservative here would go to is "cover your head and wear loose clothing to hide your body shape, but do not hide your face otherwise people do not know who you are."
I wish certain people here would follow those guidelines.
Quoting Aero145 (Reply 33): Is it fair, that you can be seen by the women wearing burkas, but you cannot see them?
I used a similar defence when I was arrested for walking down Princes Street in Edinburgh, wearing nothing but my underpants (well, it was the middle of winter). The judge was not impressed.
Mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 4709 posts, RR: 60 Reply 49, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2883 times:
Let's start seriously...
Quoting David L (Reply 47): Are they depressed because they wear the burka or do they wear the burka because they're depressed?
The pretty show offs are depressed because they wear the burka... The ugly ones are probably relieved.
And then... there are probably those who wear it to hide marks of domestic violence...
Some parts of the world... are sooo far behind in domestic harmony... On one hand you have easy divorces, on another... the dreaded burqa...
I guess both sides will flame me for being a hardline centrist!
And now to the less serious parts...
Quoting David L (Reply 47): We call them "nuns" and "convents" here.
Well, nuns and convents are the same around the world...
Quoting David L (Reply 47): I wish certain people here would follow those guidelines.
And also remember which country they live in!!!!!!!
Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 2894 posts, RR: 9 Reply 50, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2876 times:
Quoting David L (Reply 47): Insufficient data. Are they depressed because they wear the burka or do they wear the burka because they're depressed?
At their life. The burka is just one of the many symptoms and causes.
Now we know why Obama won't release his school records. Bush got C's, Obama failed lunch! We should have stuck with Hill
Aero145 From Iceland, joined Jan 2005, 2663 posts, RR: 32 Reply 52, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2834 times:
What people seem to be misunderstanding here, is that that those head-coverage-thingies are just one interpretation of Islam.
The only people who provide an authoritative interpretation of the Qur’an are males. I wonder, if females would interpret the Qur’an so, that women would have to have to wear any of those head-coverage-thingies, be it the Hijab, Al-Amira, or Burqa.
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 10527 posts, RR: 63 Reply 53, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2807 times:
Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 45): The funny thing is, we got girls wearing the Khimar or Almira and tight clothing! LOL...
Some girls wearing the Shayla made out of light transparent cloth and tight fitting clothes look outright sexy, much more than if they would have turned up in a bikini.
This style of dress reveals just enough to encourage the fantasy.
Mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 4709 posts, RR: 60 Reply 54, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2804 times:
Quoting Aero145 (Reply 52): The only people who provide an authoritative interpretation of the Qur’an are males. I wonder, if females would interpret the Qur’an so, that women would have to have to wear any of those head-coverage-thingies, be it the Hijab, Al-Amira, or Burqa.
Well, a lot of girls here wear the head cover by choice... some do it as an identity statement, some do it to fool guys to think they're good girls (LOL! And I've seen girls with the headscarves getting drunk in a bar too in case someone wants to ask), some do it out of what they interpret...
We are taught, that women SHOULD cover up (not must), but we are also taught that Islam is very practical despite modern life... so, for the girls, many balance the 2.
Some people are horrified that a girl wearing the scarf would take it off in public... but for some girls whose profession require them not to wear the scarf at work, take it off, and put it on as soon as they're off duty (I know a couple of F/As who do this).
The extreme interpretations are mainly cultural... and I'm totally against forcing people to veil up... I do expect my female friends to cover up when in Saudi Arabia... not because they have to, but over there, discrimination and harassment are still rife... therefore if the rules of the place say you veil up, you do that... if the place say you can't, then don't... and when you gotta choice, make sure you live in a place that suits your choice.
Enough of this "I immigrate into this country because my old place suck, but I want to force my way of life in the country I immigrate into, and give and take is sinful" mentality! I decided not to emigrate to other countries because I've met too many of those types during my lengthy stints abroad. Several of my female friends (Muslims too) decided to return from Europe because they keep running into these types too... harassed and intimidated... being called a "fake Muslim" by those idiots really boils one's blood!
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 53): Some girls wearing the Shayla made out of light transparent cloth and tight fitting clothes look outright sexy, much more than if they would have turned up in a bikini.
This style of dress reveals just enough to encourage the fantasy.
Some Islamic cultures do preserve and uphold the beauty of women as something to be admired (but not something to drool or to get horny over)... Even if they they wear the headgear and don't wear tight fitting clothes... do it right, and they can look better!!! (mind you, it's something the typical adolescent wouldn't appreciate... I guess for them is, the more skin the better and nothing else, even if the girl couldn't count up to ten and snores like a donkey!)
But yes, I agree... some of them makes me drool more than if they wear a bikini ! LOL
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
Falstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3800 posts, RR: 26 Reply 55, posted (7 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2765 times:
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 53): Some girls wearing the Shayla made out of light transparent cloth and tight fitting clothes look outright sexy, much more than if they would have turned up in a bikini.
The pharmacist at the Kroger grocery store, in Dearborn, dresses like that. She is HOT!
Babybus From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2320 posts, RR: 5 Reply 56, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2728 times:
Quoting IliriBDL (Reply 4): Should be banned from work and school, that's my opinion, keep religion at home.
True. I think we can all see now how bad globalization was for our countries. So I would say we now need to focus on keeping our cultures separated and respected.
When a woman goes to the Middle East she must cover up and I think we must now insist that burkas are not worn in public in the West.
I respect Mr Sarkozy for being so bold and honest.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
MadameConcorde From Antigua and Barbuda, joined Feb 2007, 5140 posts, RR: 27 Reply 57, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2710 times:
Quoting Babybus (Reply 56): I respect Mr Sarkozy for being so bold and honest.
I don't. Mr Sarkozy should accept the muslims in his country as they are. He probably deals with so few chadors and burqas in his every day life, neither does his entourage.
There are so few burqas around anyway.
I stayed in a city in the North of Paris during the Paris Air Show in an area with a lot of muslims many of them radicals. Seeing the women all covered up from head to toes did not shock me the least. I had to ride trains for distances to Le Bourget and back through neighborhoods known as "hot" immigration and integration-wise.
The dressed muslim women did not give me bad looks for being rather uncovered (compared to what they were wearing) neither did the muslim men. I think we are making far too much of a big deal of hijabs, burqas and other muslim female wearable styles.
I think this whole hypocrisy must stop.
If muslim immigrants are accepted by the different French governments the said governments must accept everything else that goes along with it or else the muslims will feel discriminated against and will respond agressively by becoming even more conservative and they will conceal their religious activities in "underground" mosques..
This is already happening in some areas in France and it is not for the good of the country.
There was a better way to fly. It was called Concorde.
Oh, that is amazing, especially when you cannot see their faces, or eyes.
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 57): I think we are making far too much of a big deal of hijabs, burqas and other muslim female wearable styles.
I don’t think we are. Niqab and burqas should in my opinion be eliminated, at least in Europe. I have nothing against the other headscarves, but those, where you can’t see the wearer’s faces, I have a lot against.
Women, that have wore the burqas/niqabs for many years, may nowadays not want to go out of their houses without them, but I’m absolutely sure, that if women had interpreted the Qu’ran, b/n wouldn’t be part of the interpretation.
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 1267 posts, RR: 2 Reply 59, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2700 times:
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 57): I think we are making far too much of a big deal of hijabs, burqas and other muslim female wearable styles.
I don't, if a line in the sand isn't drawn now just imagine what Europe will be like in a generation of so, I'm jhappy that Frnce is taking a stand now lets see the rest of Europe follow suit.
L410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 4645 posts, RR: 24 Reply 60, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2664 times:
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 57): If muslim immigrants are accepted by the different French governments the said governments must accept everything else that goes along with it or else the muslims will feel discriminated against and will respond agressively
That is, my friends, a summary of European dhimmitude and suicidal multiculturalism in one sentence...
This begs a question: If the French (or any other European government) as you claim "must" accept muslim immigration including "everything else that goes along with it" no ifs or buts, why not let them go ahead with gang rapes, the so called honor killings or even letting them to govern themselves by sharia law instead of being subject to French law like everyone else?
Elite From Hong Kong, joined Jun 2006, 2502 posts, RR: 13 Reply 61, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2656 times:
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 57): If muslim immigrants are accepted by the different French governments the said governments must accept everything else that goes along with it or else the muslims will feel discriminated against and will respond agressively by becoming even more conservative and they will conceal their religious activities in "underground" mosques..
No, that is not the way forward... immigrants must try to assimilate into the local culture. I'm not saying they should give up their religious beliefs, but they must stop trying to alienate themselves and try to fit in. Otherwise, it will be like reverse discrimination; it will be the locals who are now disadvantaged.
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 1267 posts, RR: 2 Reply 64, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2651 times:
Quoting N867DA (Reply 62): I think it's really funny to see Europeans whining about cultural imperialism and newcomers who do not assimilate.
Why, it's no different than Americans whining about the illegial immigration from South American and how it's changing the American way of life. Same problem different continent.
OA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 17542 posts, RR: 54 Reply 65, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2625 times:
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 64): Why, it's no different than Americans whining about the illegial immigration from South American and how it's changing the American way of life.
Maybe he is a native American Indian
There is nothing wrong with controlled and realistic immigration but equally with that privilege comes responsibilities on the applicant. They must integrate and add something to the country and be willing to abide by the countries laws. Somewhere along the way alot of European countries lost that and we now find ourselves in the current mess we are in.
The EU instead of wasting time on crap and millions of stupid laws should tackle real issues like a EU immigration policy and border controls, especially at vunerable areas of the EU like Malta/Italy/Greece and Cyprus. Instead the EU forces these countries into just accepting thousands and thousands without any support from Brussels.
Elite From Hong Kong, joined Jun 2006, 2502 posts, RR: 13 Reply 66, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2621 times:
The European Union can't ignore this immigration problem forever. Sooner or later it is going to be a real big problem and burden for many countries, and by that time the problem will be much bigger than it is now and the consequences are going to be serious.
N867DA From United States of America, joined May 2008, 799 posts, RR: 1 Reply 67, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2612 times:
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 64): Why, it's no different than Americans whining about the illegial immigration from South American and how it's changing the American way of life. Same problem different continent.
...or how Europeans changed the way people in the Americas, much of Asia, and Australia lived?
I have my issues with the burqa and niqab, but it's mostly because I don't understand why a woman would want to wear something like that.
Mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 4709 posts, RR: 60 Reply 68, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2613 times:
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 60): This begs a question: If the French (or any other European government) as you claim "must" accept muslim immigration including "everything else that goes along with it" no ifs or buts, why not let them go ahead with gang rapes, the so called honor killings or even letting them to govern themselves by sharia law instead of being subject to French law like everyone else?
LOL, nicely put! Immigration = you move to another country and respect the laws of that country. There's only a certain extent in "toleration" you can "force" at the host country, that is things such as making going to Friday prayers during Friday lunchtime (hence extended friday lunch time)... or having the right to not eat pork (like in schools)... Why? These are the essentials of the Muslim belief... BUT, wearing the Burqa/Nijab ISN'T! These hardline Muslim immigrants need to open their eyes, that there are other Muslim countries that do not see the Burqa as a religious issue, an accept that it's a cultural and not religious issue.
Spending years in the UK, I got quite sick of seeing some "hardliners" trying to con the Brits that their cultural issue is a religious ones... Heck, some tried to force me to leave my own set of Islamic values and tried to intimidate me with "follow our ways, your country's Islam is wrong"... (Heck! Who does he think he is?)
We have a joke here about Jews, Arabs and Indonesians...
"Why did God send Christianity in Judea?" "So that the Jews know God still care about them" (in reference to the Roman occupation)
"OK, So then why did God send Islam in Arabia?" "Can you imagine how much worse they would be if God ignored them?"
"Wouldn't it be better if God sent Islam in Indonesia?" "No No No!!!!!"
"Why?" "Well, we didn't want our women to stop going around topless!"
Quoting Elite (Reply 61): I'm not saying they should give up their religious beliefs, but they must stop trying to alienate themselves and try to fit in.
I think "try to fit in" is easily misconstrued... I think it's "they must stop alienating themselves and adapt to their new country."
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
FlyDeltaJets87 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 4827 posts, RR: 38 Reply 69, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2594 times:
Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 27):
I agree! I think such symbols are just to make a statement to show other people you are part of a group, it's the same thing with other religions as well. Keep religion at home and don't go advertising with it in public, thank you!
Why are you so bothered by it? If I choose to wear a Crucifix, is that somehow going to convert you to a Catholic? But why stop with religious symbols? Let's also ban sports logos, product logos, etc. on clothing items in public. After all, those logos also show one belonging to a group or organization, and one in the US that may just be more likely to start a fight than the wearing of religious icons. Wearing a Boston Red Sox B into Yankee Stadium or a New York Yankees NY into Fenway Park is a sure way to get your ass kicked.
I have mixed feelings on the burka because I can see both sides. On one hand, I feel if someone is wearing a burka through their own free choice, who are you to interfere. On the other hand, I agree with others who say it is a security and recognition thing. I have no problem with those applying for driver's licenses or passports being told to remove it for the picture, and if proper ID is required, that the burka be removed so that proper identification can be made.
MadameConcorde From Antigua and Barbuda, joined Feb 2007, 5140 posts, RR: 27 Reply 70, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2568 times:
I have more concern for what is "underground" in France and elsewhere, such as the underground mosques and other such underground fundamentalists meetings we don't know anythng about than for whatever is worn openly on the city streets be it burqas.
If these women want to alienate themselves it is their own choice. They are living in the EU where they can receive free education at least to literacy and language level through free community classes organized for immigrants and free themselves from this religious slavery. If they choose to go the other way and they surrender to what they are taught by their imams and male counterparts there is not much we can do about it. It's their own problem.
There was a better way to fly. It was called Concorde.
AirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 501 posts, RR: 25 Reply 71, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2527 times:
Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 69): Why are you so bothered by it? If I choose to wear a Crucifix, is that somehow going to convert you to a Catholic? But why stop with religious symbols? Let's also ban sports logos, product logos, etc. on clothing items in public. After all, those logos also show one belonging to a group or organization, and one in the US that may just be more likely to start a fight than the wearing of religious icons. Wearing a Boston Red Sox B into Yankee Stadium or a New York Yankees NY into Fenway Park is a sure way to get your ass kicked.
I think the major difference is when it has something to do with a religion. I don't think there should be a ban wearing burkas, etc. People can believe in what they want, but I am just not a fan of wearing all kinds of religious symbols in public, and I don't see the point if it isn't required by the religion eg to wear a Burka or wear a David star.
Asturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 1246 posts, RR: 9 Reply 72, posted (7 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2512 times:
Quoting Aircatalonia (Reply 3): Anyway my opinion is that these issues should be addressed in a EU-wide perspective. The EU is not a muslim country, and we should all agree how to deal with these customs. After all if it is an issue of "primordial" women's rights, it doesn't make much sense to me that such things are banned in Paris and not in Brussels.
The UE is not a country
It is a union of 27 independent sovereign countries. In other words it is not a federation.
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 22): If France accepts muslim immigration they must accept everything that goes with it including extremes. It would make no sense otherwise. Otherwise they might just as well ban islam from the country as a whole.
My that logic France will have to deport the whole lot. Of course people who refuse to integrate should move. That's my personal opinion.
Acheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 861 posts, RR: 2 Reply 73, posted (7 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2430 times:
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 64): Why, it's no different than Americans whining about the illegial immigration from South American and how it's changing the American way of life.
Mexico is not the same as South America nor even part of it, thank you very much.
MadameConcorde From Antigua and Barbuda, joined Feb 2007, 5140 posts, RR: 27 Reply 75, posted (7 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2245 times:
Shariah courts are operating in the UK.
The same undercover courts probably exist in France.
At least 85 separate sharia "courts" are now openly functioning in Britain, almost 20 times as many as previously believed, a report by Civitas claims.
...
Some decisions of Islamic tribunals are already considered legally binding and could theoretically be enforced in civil courts in England and Wales.
Carlisle From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 200 posts, RR: 3 Reply 76, posted (7 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2176 times:
Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter): He even suggests that a commision be established to determine whether they should be banned in public. Truly shocking and xenophobic behavior.
Sarkozy had better be prepared to be and have some good bodyguards.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 305 posts, RR: 0 Reply 77, posted (7 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2164 times:
If it truly interferes with things (like photo IDs) yeah, take them off, but just because a burka or cross or whatever "offends" someone else, well if you want to play that game (and I'm gonna get extreme here, these are not my views so have mercy), some people are offended by homosexuality or people of different races. You can't get rid of something because you don't like it, that's prejudice.
Sponsor Message: 
From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2099 posts, 
From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 17542 posts, 
From Spain, joined Nov 2007, 480 posts, 
From Germany, joined May 2007, 1049 posts, 
From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 1267 posts, 
The Bosnian government needs to crush these idiots with the help of Europe if need be. Most Bosnian Women dont want to be covered up in sheets. 
From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 6291 posts, 
From Antigua and Barbuda, joined Feb 2007, 5140 posts, 
From Hong Kong, joined Jun 2006, 2502 posts, 
From Gibraltar, joined Apr 2009, 276 posts, 
From Denmark, joined May 2008, 501 posts, 
From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 4645 posts, 
From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8402 posts, 
I'm still not convinced the burka has a lot to do with religion. Yes, it's often associated with Islam but, as far as I know, it comes from the culture of some groups who happen to be Muslim and not from Islam itself. The same seems to be true of many/most of the restrictions imposed on women by some ethnic groups that happen to be predominately Muslim. I don't think Islam has anything against women driving or going to university. Claiming that a dislike/distrust of the burka infringes people's religious rights is stretching things a bit... in my opinion.
From Iceland, joined Jan 2005, 2663 posts, 
From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 4841 posts, 
From Mexico, joined Jun 2001, 1313 posts, 
.
From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 4709 posts, 
and have some good bodyguards.
Printer friendly format 
