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Cost Of Fuel  
User currently offlineSaintsman From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 2065 posts, RR: 2
Posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1069 times:

With all the events in the Middle East and Iraq putting a ban on oil exports the base cost of oil has increased.
An average price for petrol in UK is now £0.77 per litre or £3.50 per gallon. That's close to $2.50 a gallon. Most of that is tax of course and when the price goes up the taxman gets more.
Do you think you pay too much for fuel because in the UK we do. There have been protests here and the price went down for a short while but it's back up again. The oil companies blame the government and the Arabs. The goverment insist it's everybody elses fault, increase the tax and say we must pay to save the environment so it's justified.
Fuel prices go up but it doesn't just hit the motorist. Everything goes up because it all relies on transport to get to the shops, the costs are just passed on.

It's about time some more alternate forms of energy materialised. They must be getting cost effective by now.

56 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRyanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1044 times:

£3.50 = $2.50 ????

More like $5 I would say.



I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
User currently offlineSaintsman From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 2065 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1033 times:

Sorry, my calculator is not working properly!!!!

User currently offlineFDXmech From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3251 posts, RR: 34
Reply 3, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1030 times:

I think the price for a gallon of gas in the U.S. is historically low based on the rate of inflation.

I used to pump gas from the late 70's till the early 80's. In 1978 the price of regular was about .65 cents per gal.
I think it was 1980 when gas broke the dollar a gallon mark. But the gas pumps only could go as high as 99.9 cents per gallon (dollar a gallon was sort of the Y2K of its day). So what we did 'till the new pumps arrived was, if the price was $1.04 p/gal, they set the pump to .52 cents p/gallon and we'd multiply what was on the pump times 2.

It worked fine except my brain was in the X's 2 mode.
I remember looking at my digital alarm clock each morning and trying to decipher the time because my first reaction was X's it by 2, really.



You're only as good as your last departure.
User currently offline707CMF From France, joined Mar 2002, 4885 posts, RR: 29
Reply 4, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1024 times:

I've had my car only for one yaer now, and I lived in the UK at the beginning of this time.
Cost was ~80p per litre, and I did find that quite expensive.

When I moved back ot France last fall, I was really glad to pay only 6,50 francs ( ~60p / 90 cents), and boy was I glad when it kept on getting cheaper and cheaper. It stopped at 91 eurocents ( ~6 francs / 57p), and since a few weeks it went back up. Now, I hate having to pay more that one euro per litre, even if it is the price it was 6 months ago  Pissed


User currently offlineNdebele From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 2901 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 1014 times:

In Stuttgart/Germany, I pay 1.069€ for a litre of "Super" (that's 98 octan petrol I think, my dictionary calls it "four-star petrol"). I was told that it's cheaper in northern Germany, because southern Germany has a pipeline from Triest, whereas northern Germany has pipelines from Rotterdam and Emden, and Italian pipelines are more expensive - not sure if this is true.
Anyway, most of that is tax - ~0.50€ tax per liter in Germany (~0.85€ in UK). But I think it's a good thing to have a high taxation on petrol, in order to lower the demand, as long as they use that money to subsidize public transports. But I have the feeling that fuel prices become higher and higher, and train connections become worse and worse  Sad


User currently offlineVw From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 252 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 1009 times:

That is one more reason to be mad at the U.S. Gas is cheaper than a 2 litter bottle of Coca-Cola. I'm in Iowa in the U.S. 2 liters of Coke $1.25, one GALLON of gas right now is $1.35. The most I have ever seen gas in the U.S. was $1.89 in Fargo North Dakota last summer. Around two years ago it was as cheap as .89!!!!! Americans are so wasteful. Americans for the most part have no idea what fuel costs in other countries. Here 90% of cars are automatics and have a V-6 or &-8 engine. In Iowa it is also common to see V-10 ford trucks and SUV's that get around 10 miles per gallon.

User currently offlineNdebele From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 2901 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 1006 times:

I agree with Vw. As long as gas is cheap, people will waste it. With higher gas prices, people will buy cars with less consumption - but I fear they will keep on driving their V-6/-8 cars and vote for the party that supports oil extractions from Alaska and Antarctic  Sad

User currently offlineN312RC From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 2683 posts, RR: 16
Reply 8, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 995 times:

I drive a Ford Explorer with a 4.0L SOHC V6 (207 HP), and spent 19.00 USD on gas yesterday to fill the tank


N/A
User currently offlineFlyBoeing From United States of America, joined May 2000, 866 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 991 times:

That is one more reason to be mad at the U.S. Gas is cheaper than a 2 litter bottle of Coca-Cola. I'm in Iowa in the U.S. 2 liters of Coke $1.25, one GALLON of gas right now is $1.35. The most I have ever seen gas in the U.S. was $1.89 in Fargo North Dakota last summer. Around two years ago it was as cheap as .89!!!!!

Wasn't it great? We should get the CIA to engineer more diplomatic discord and cheating within OPEC so that we keep on getting gas that cheap! It's great for the economy. Not so good for the environment, but that's a matter of retargeting the tax revenue levied on gasoline.

Americans are so wasteful.

No, other countries simply distort the true price of gasoline so that they can fund socialist programs. Fewer people in Europe can have a car. Because of that, they don't have the ability to go anywhere on their own schedule, they can't shop around for the best bargains, they have to do grocery shopping more than once a week, they can't engage in "do-it-yourself" home projects that save contractor costs.

Public transportation will never work in a country that's as spread out as the U.S is.

Cars provide unique benefits and it's in our best interest to have them as cheap to operate as possible.

Americans for the most part have no idea what fuel costs in other countries.

Why should we care?

Here 90% of cars are automatics and have a V-6 or &-8 engine. In Iowa it is also common to see V-10 ford trucks and SUV's that get around 10 miles per gallon.

Automatic transmissions lower the barrier to entry to having a car. They cost maybe 2 mpg in efficiency. That's a small price to pay for advancing automotive technology to people who otherwise might not drive - old people, young people, and the less mechanically competent.

The reason people buy SUVs and pickup trucks even if they don't use them in their designed role is that they get intangible utility out of them. Otherwise, why would they buy them? They buy them because they have a lot of cargo space, they are incredibly safe in an accident, and you can do things with them that even if you don't do now, you might in the future.

The SUV reflects America's pioneer values - the fact that we want to be ready for anything, the fact that we don't live our lives doing the same things all the time. What if I buy a boat? Where will I be if I drive a Focus and can't tow it? What if I want to haul a load of mulch? What if I want to move furniture?

What if it snows outside?

While these eventualities are remote, they are significant. If it snows and you get in an accident, you may pay thousands in medical bills. That alone may be worth the extra cost of the SUV. You can carry loads more stuff and not have to make multiple trips which cost you time and money. New possibilities open up - performing your own contractor work can save you thousands.

I'm tired of all that crap spewed by the "anti-SUV" crowd. My car choice is my damn car choice. As long as the costs I pay in gasoline reflect the costs I inflict on society - in pollution and roads - I should be allowed to consume as much of it as I want.


User currently offlineJetService From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4798 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 987 times:

Last year when the cost of a gallon was high (pushing $2.00/gallon), the governor temporarily repealed the state fuel tax which took it down 10 cents. Right now, I believe I'm paying $1.60/gallon at the pumps (I'll find out after work today) Big grin


"Shaddap you!"
User currently offlineF.pier From Italy, joined Aug 2000, 1524 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 975 times:

Fewer people in Europe can have a car????

I don't think so, check the data of Italy, France, Germany and you'll see that a lot of people have a car.

Maybe here the unleaded fuel (95 oct) is expensive (1.08 EUR/L) but if we go to an hospital, they take care of us........

The "diesel" price is about 0.85 EUR/L (consider that in Europe a lot of people drive a diesel car, here in Italy, on February, more than 40% of new cars were diesel).


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29813 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 972 times:

I have to agree with Flyboeing on his comments.

I wish I could remember what gas was in Stuttgart 10 years ago when I lived their but it was pretty outragous. But truth be told a lot of the cost of gas over there is because of the taxes that are placed on it. Roughtly twice the rate in the US depending on country. So part of the fuel problem over there is self-inflicted and as such I don't have that much sympathy.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineBCal DC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 723 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 970 times:

I just filled my car up this morning with unleaded... and the total price was £65 (it was running on fumes and is a 4L jeep grand cherokee!) which is about €105 or $93, which I think is pretty expensive.
Trouble is for me public transport isn't an option as I live in the country where there isn't any public transport.
I am looking forward to seeing what the Chancellor has to say in the up n coming budget. I hear rumours that the fuel protesters are getting itchy feet about it as well....



User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 14, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 960 times:

I'm not sure that the government will have the nerve to put a big increase on fuel duties after the last time. If one thing can be said to be true about the Blair government, they panic if they think they are losing the support of the people. They are superb at finding out which way the public are heading, and then getting in front of them. They view this as leadership.

A couple of things about the fuel price in the UK. If you remove the taxes, British fuel is actually the cheapest in Europe! In other words, having a go at the oil companies is wide of the mark. Also, the likes of BP and Shell make very little money from petrol, their profits are elsewhere. You frequently hear people complaining about them and saying that they can afford to cut the price dramatically. That is true, but they cannot legally do it as it would be regarded as dumping, and would put the independents out of business.

As for BP's £10 billion profits, you need to remember that these companies are absolutely huge. Their margins are around 9%, nothing out of the ordinary for any company.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineFlyBoeing From United States of America, joined May 2000, 866 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 953 times:

F.pier:

I don't think so, check the data of Italy, France, Germany and you'll see that a lot of people have a car.


So you're saying that kids routinely get cars at the age of sixteen there? You're saying that middle class families routinely have two cars? I didn't see that when I was in Europe. I saw a lot of families squeezed into tiny cars that really didn't serve any much better than public transport.

Maybe here the unleaded fuel (95 oct) is expensive (1.08 EUR/L) but if we go to an hospital, they take care of us........


If we go to hospitals they take care of us too. Except we get charged for it. Our healthcare system is the world's best - except, of course, in matters of equity. True capitalists care very distantly about equity, though. And if the healthcare market were made more perfect ours would be the best on earth.



User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 952 times:

Well petrol is around 10SEK/litre in Sweden (big psychological
barrier a year ago, not any longer) which is about 1US$
or 1,1 €uro which means that if I fill my Citroën DS23 Famillale it will cost me 57 US$. Many farmers have agricultural diesel (well others as well) which cost them around 4SEK/litre and they use it in their cars (illegal),
so the fuel prize is less for these guys. Catch is that
people driving new SUVs like the Nissan Patrol my oncle
had, it will cost you 1300US$ in road tax every year
(petrol cars pay less road tax and 30 year old cars pay no road tax).
As for alternative fuel, the company I work for tried
methanol in the company VW Caravelle diesel (not all
diesels can drive on methanol, because fuel pipes can
be damaged by the fuel), but stopped since it become
like thick during cold weather that exist during Swedish
winters, also the fuel pump pipe at the gaz station
had to be replaced more often when the use of methanol. So many disadvantages with methanol in
diesel, also fuel consumption is larger but not by much...


User currently offlineVapourTrails From Australia, joined Aug 2001, 1300 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 945 times:
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In Australia it's almost $1 a litre, last time I checked. In my experience, that's not bad compared to UK! Wow!

During the Gulf War it was over $1 if I remember correctly, but that is what it's been here now normally in the last year -- fluctuated about 20 cents or so .. I don't take too much notice.

We have lead replacement fuel now, but it still costs more than unleaded, like the old Super did .. where's the logic in that? Innocent



"I've never known an industry that can get into people's blood the way aviation does" -- Robert Six
User currently offlineNik From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 939 times:

"so that they can fund socialist programs."

Social programmes, not socialist.

"Cars provide unique benefits and it's in our best interest to have them as cheap to operate as possible."

Cars have a positive affect on the economy, but also have a cost.
The impact on the environment? The cost of people becoming ill from the pollution?

"Americans for the most part have no idea what fuel costs in other countries.

Why should we care?"

You shouldn't care about the price - but maybe think about that the US pollutes much more than other countries. And you pollute not just your own country, you pollute ours too.

"That's a small price to pay for advancing automotive technology to people who otherwise might not drive - old people, young people, and the less mechanically competent."

Yet in Europe all of these people have learned to drive a manual...

"they are incredibly safe in an accident"

But easy to get into an accident with.....

"My car choice is my damn car choice. As long as the costs I pay in gasoline reflect the costs I inflict on society - in pollution and roads - I should be allowed to consume as much of it as I want."

But DO you pay the costs you inflict on society?

"You're saying that middle class families routinely have two cars?"

Many have, yes. And most middle class families could afford two cars. They just don't need it.

"I didn't see that when I was in Europe. I saw a lot of families squeezed into tiny cars that really didn't serve any much better than public transport."

I'm sure these families know what they need. Would you drive a Ford Exploiter in central Rome, Paris or London?

"Our healthcare system is the world's best"

Opinion, not fact.


User currently offlineJetService From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4798 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 930 times:

I was mistaken. I paid $1.38/gallon of regular unleaded which (if I did the math right) converts to £0.25 per litre.


"Shaddap you!"
User currently offlineFlyBoeing From United States of America, joined May 2000, 866 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks ago) and read 919 times:

With all due respect, Nik, have you lived the way Americans live? Have you truly experienced the wonder of an automotive society? Public transport doesn't cut it and will never cut it.

Yes, cars do pollute. But the cost of the pollution is NOT $2 in taxes per gallon. For one thing, American cars require a bit more in pollution control than European cars - you should note that some cars like the Porsche 959 aren't legal here due to emissions regulations.

And most of the time, gas taxes don't even cover anti-pollution items. They cover politicians' pet projects. If we tax gasoline disproportionately, we impose inefficiencies on our economy that I mentioned many posts above. High gas taxes are forcing European families to lose the very real utility of having two cars. If you have two cars, you have the option of:

1) Having two parents work
2) Living in an area not served by public transport. This saves money in rent and mortgage payments. It also saves you from the monopoly power of the small store.

I know that I personally am a good SUV driver. I won't get into accidents due to rollover. Most of the additional safety danger, therefore, comes from other drivers. I should be entitled to protect myself from them.


User currently offlineNKP S2 From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1714 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 913 times:

Though I'm no fan of SUV's, I concurr with "Fly-Boeing". I heard the argument time and time again about how "gasoline is too inexpensive in the US..." or somesuch rhetoric. It isn't too cheap at all... It's just not priced artificially high to discourage its use, as it is in Europe. -- Hey FDX: I was a "petroleum technician" ( what my boss at the time jokingly refered to my position as a gas attendant ) in '79-'80 too. In one fell swoop I remember gas going from the 60's to $1.38...VERY high in 1980 dollars. We did the same thing with the old rotating digit pumps-- doubling the reading. It sure was odd but I became very proficient with "in your head" math. I used to joke to customers not to ask me the time: I had a digital watch and I was likely to tell them the time was "six sixty" if my watch read 3:30. That job ( $3.10/hr ) was my first "real" job and paid toward my A&P tuition.

User currently offlineNik From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 911 times:

"Have you truly experienced the wonder of an automotive society?"

Erm, yes. We do have cars in Europe, you know.
And sure, it's nice to have a car. But if driving involves sitting in traffic for an hour and then not being able to find a parking spot, I'd much rather take the train.....

"Yes, cars do pollute. But the cost of the pollution is NOT $2 in taxes per gallon."

Are you sure? Nobody knows exactly how much the pollution affects the environment. If it changes the climate, would a $2 tax be enough?

"And most of the time, gas taxes don't even cover anti-pollution items."

Sometimes, true, but taxes do have the effect that people drive less.

"1) Having two parents work"

Many families without a car have two working parents. It all depends on were you live. Live close to work and walk or take the bus or train, live far away and you have to own a car. It's a choice you have to make.

"Living in an area not served by public transport. This saves money in rent and mortgage payments."

Money that you can then spend on a car.

"I know that I personally am a good SUV driver. I won't get into accidents due to rollover. Most of the additional safety danger, therefore, comes from other drivers. I should be entitled to protect myself from them."

I'm sure that you are a good driver and don't cause accidents. But SUVs have relatively high death rates.


User currently offlineF.pier From Italy, joined Aug 2000, 1524 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 908 times:

Flyboeing, you say that in Europe boys and girls don't drive at the age of 16!!!

You're right, but consider that here the roads are small because ciries were built centuries ago and there is an efficient public transportation system amost everywhere.

Italy has 56 millions inhabitants.

Italy has more then 33 millions of cars.

The situation is similar in other European States.

I don't say it's a good thing because they pollute and they take a lot of space.

We drive smaller cars, ok, I agree, but they're full of technology, easier to park and much more performing than American cars.

We have Volkswagen, Seat, Skoda, Peugeot, Renault, Citroen, Fiat, Lancia. They all build very good small cars (which are quite expensive to buy) which perfectly fit our road system.

I'm absolutely sure that European Health System is far better then American one and I feel perfectly safe when I go in an European hospital (also if I don't have to pay the bill).

Somebody says that European drive a manual.

It's true. Wanna compare the pleasure you feel when you drive a manual with the boring automatic?????

Ciao



User currently offlineJetService From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4798 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (12 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 903 times:

Manual trans are indeed fun; for awhile anyway, but then they get annoying. Especially while talking on the cellphone and enjoying a soda. Big grin




"Shaddap you!"
25 Qatar : In Qatar the price of fuel is $0.19 per litre for "Super"
26 F.pier : JetService, I really think it's a bad idea using the cellphone and drinking a soda while driving, either you have an automatic or manual shift.
27 JetService : F.pier, but manual and automatic are the only two choices!!!
28 CPDC10-30 : In Toronto right now, it is CDN $0.719 per litre which is quite high (for us at least). That translates to 0.51 euros, $0.45USD, 0.32 pounds sterling.
29 F.pier : OK, JetService. I meant that while you're driving you shouldn't make phone calls and you shouldn't drink. Doesn't matter if you have manual or automat
30 JetService : F.pier, I do know about this clutchless trannies, but we're talking about using the hands to listen to the phone and chug a drink. So essentially, the
31 Post contains images TWAL1011 : Well, I've got a V8, but I make up for it with my low-flush toilet.
32 RogueTrader : , however I don't put booze in the soda until I'm at least a mile from my house. That makes me feel better, I thought I was the only one who did this.
33 RogueTrader : Another off topic response here. In other countries, you may have heard that if you don't have money or insurance, you don't get healthcare in the US.
34 L-188 : Forgot about the pollution controls...Thanks for reminding me Flyboeing.... I always got a kick about how Europe was on this big green kick when I liv
35 Banco : RogueTrader, I've always been amazed at the willingness of some people (not you!) to claim "our healthcare system is perfect, yours is crap", on eithe
36 Saintsman : I've always found it ammusing that in the most technically advanced country in the world, when you get stopped for drink driving they make you walk up
37 Radarbeam : In Montreal, the gas price fluctuates between 0.789/L on thursdays (pay day) and 0.709/L (weekends). That translate roughly into 1.88$US/G and 0.345 G
38 JetService : RogueTrader, thanks for the tip. I do utilize my knees to maintain safe motoring. But those big turns are quite a challenge. For the safety of fellow
39 Matt D : For those of you that are interested in field sobriety tests, my roommate, who happens to be a police officer told me that they usually go something l
40 Saintsman : "of course if you are so drunk that you cannot even stand, then you have no business getting anywhere near a car. And if you get the matching bracelet
41 Post contains links Nik : "Seemed a little bit...how should I phrase it?.....like the run around. Claim that the US is a polluter and not green, then don't require pollution co
42 RogueTrader : Banco said: As far as I understand it, the US is both best and worst This is a great point. When I write my great multi-volume book called "Europe v.
43 Adam84 : Gas is extremely low in the US right now but it is going to keep rising throughout the summertime. Right now in the bay area it around $1.75/gal for t
44 LOT767-300ER : Nik, thats because we have bigger distances, we rely on our cars and there is more of us than in any given euro country. And Public Transportation in
45 JetService : Rogue, kids are awesome! By age 3 they even fetch beers for you out of the refrigerator on the weekends. By 4, they can begin distinguishing brands. A
46 Nik : LOT767-300ER, "...we rely on our cars..." I am aware of that... "And Public Transportation in the USA? Are you kidding me?" I just wish Americans didn
47 Adam84 : Yes public transit out in the sticks may be nonexistent. But that is not a valid excuse for the people in the large urban areas. Look at San Jose. Tra
48 Saintsman : I know why I don't like buses. I always get the village idiot / drunk sitting next to me.
49 Nik : In Copenhagen 27% of the commuters who go to the city center use public transportation (34% go by bike!). Just offering buses or trains usually isn't
50 F.pier : I agree with Nik, I wouldn't want to ever be seen on a SUV. I have a Renault Clio and a Fiat Punto. What's the matter with them??? They need a liter o
51 FlyBoeing : Just offering buses or trains usually isn't enough....you have to make it difficult or expensive to go by car. In CPH the price for parking has been r
52 F.pier : Dear FlyBoeing "F.Pier and other Euros are deluding themselves when they think that the lifestyle where every citizen can't choose for himself where h
53 Metwrench : Here in Alaska the highways get trenches worn in from studded snow tires. This provides an unexpected benefit. With my 1990 Chevrolet Suburban, (SUV),
54 LOT767-300ER : The Fiat Punto is a good car for Europe, because everything is small, even the distances, parking spaces and everything...i couldnt do anything in a c
55 Nik : "If people prefer to drive into Copenhagen, then by all means they should be allowed to drive! " Just because they then are "free"? It is better in al
56 Adam84 : I would not really say all cars are cramped. Go do a comparison of a Honda Accord LX and a Ford Escape. The Honda Accord beats the Escape in all space
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