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Another Israel Topic. But This One's Sensible!  
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (12 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 624 times:

Ok, I really don't want to do this, cos I'm fairly certain how this is going to turn out. There's going to be a big fight here, probably with posts and users being deleted, but at least TRY to be civil, ok?!

Right. Hundreds and hundreds of innocent civilians are suffering, and being killed in the West Bank as we speak. News crews, international observers, foreigners in the region and nearly EVERYONE in the region (apart from the Israeli army) says so. I tend to believe them (unless this is a Murdoch plot to sell more papers).

Israel is disobeying every other country in the world, including the US -- always a friend of Israel. The EU is threatening sanctions, friends of Israel are demanding they pull out of Palestinian territories.

But is the action nessecary? People will say "but we NEED to do something!! How do we stop the suicide bombers?!". I don't know. But obviously this is NOT the way!! Today (the bus bomb) shows just how the suicide bombings will and are continuing. The Israeli offencive was meant to stop this. It's not.

Yet if the Israeli offensive continues, the hate in the hearts of every Palestinian is going to grow to a point where every Palestianian man, woman and child is going to be straping explosive on themselves, trying to kill as many Israelis as possible. This WILL happen if Israel continues this offencive. If Israel continues this, then only the complete distruction of Israel will solve this problem.

So, what now? Is Israel going to bow to international pressure? Is the situation going to escalate?

62 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKolobokman From Russia, joined Oct 2000, 1180 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (12 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 539 times:

Palestinians will not stop! Israel here, is the side that must review its actions.
They should be specificly told what to do by the UN(never thought i would say that about UN).
Withdraw, give up some land, leave Palestinians alone.

Then the Palestinian state should be created. And the UN must help them clean up their country from Hizbola/Hamas etc.

And we will live hapily ever after!



I can neither confirm, nor deny above post
User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (12 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 533 times:

"Withdraw, give up some land, leave Palestinians alone."

Been there, done that... This is what they get in return.

LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineRyanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (12 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 529 times:

Okay, rephrase that:

'Withdraw, give up PALESTINIAN land, leave the Palestinians alone'


Why doesn't Israel just try this? What does it have to lose? It's not as if the situation could be any worse.

If Israel does this and then the terrorism continues, then Israel will have the moral upper hand and then I'm sure an international coalition will go in and remove Hamas etc. Unfortunately, the whole 'war against terrorists' stuff Sharon is sprouting seems just a bit hypocritical.




I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
User currently offlineGreg From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (12 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 520 times:

Ugggghhhh!
Who cares anymore!
US Sympathy for Israel is very rapidly going downhill...


User currently offlineArsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (12 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 511 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

People are trying to help, but these people never listen. So let them kill themselves.


In Arsene we trust!!
User currently offlineYazoo From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 487 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (12 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 506 times:

another israel/palestine thread ?!? Come ON !


Purple Pride!
User currently offlineVoodoo From Niue, joined Mar 2001, 2091 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (12 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 510 times:

Nope.
Sharon's `Operation Create-more-terrorists-so-that-our next-self-justified-step-is-to-put-all-Palestinains-and-Israeli-Arabs-on-trucks-to-Jordan' must continue....
Or
`We took every hilltop, and this is what they give us'.



` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (12 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 485 times:

As usual, 777236ER, you didn't even mention the almost-daily suicide bombings that are taking place. So much for sensible. Just another fanning of the flames, huh? Under the rules, you are right, you should be deleted.

User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (12 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 484 times:

Why doesn't Israel just try this? What does it have to lose? It's not as if the situation could be any worse.

Israel has done this, Ryan. Remember, the PA had authority over most disupited lands after Oslo. The terror didn't stop, did it?

If Israel does this and then the terrorism continues, then Israel will have the moral upper hand and then I'm sure an international coalition will go in and remove Hamas etc.

Ther terror WILL NEVER STOP, as long as groups like Hamas and Hezbollah-who's openly proclaimed goal is to destroy Israel. Why is that so hard for some here to grasp?

Unfortunately, the whole 'war against terrorists' stuff Sharon is sprouting seems just a bit hypocritical.

Well, if you're definition of "hypocritical" is trying to root out terrorists in the midst of almost-daily suicide bombings that are killing civilians, then more power to you. But I'd hate to see what you think "sensible" is.



User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5644 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (12 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 481 times:

What the Israelis can't or won't realize is that the Palestinians have an almost infinite capacity to withstand suffering. Certainly a much higher capacity than the Israelis. In this sense, the Israelis are like the U.S. military in Afghanistan; combat deaths are kept to an absolute minimum even when doing so limits progress (e.g. the Tora Bora operation at the end of 2001, when Afghan allies were used as American proxies in ground combat to avoid American deaths, allowing many Taliban and al Qaeda fighters to escape into Pakistan). The Palestinians, in contrast, are like the U.S. military in World War II, willing to absorb very heavy casualties when the objectives are sufficiently important.
All of this means that the Israelis eventually will reach a point at which they just cannot accept any more soldiers coming home in coffins. The Palestinians, however, will never reach such a point. We can only hope that the Israelis will realize that they're in a no-win situation and will stop seeing military action as the answer to everything.



"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
User currently offlineRoyalDutch From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 917 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (12 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 475 times:

Today (the bus bomb) shows just how the suicide bombings will and are continuing. The Israeli offencive was meant to stop this. It's not.


May I remind you that prior to the offensive, the suicide bombings were happening almost every DAY? This is the first one in nearly a week.

- RoyalDutch




User currently offlineTwaneedsnohelp From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (12 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 464 times:

We can only hope that the Israelis will realize that they're in a no-win situation and will stop seeing military action as the answer to everything.

Interesting points PROSA, and I like the way you presented them. However, I disagree. The Palestinians have a tremendous tolerance of suffering. They have been for a hundred years and are still out kicking. However, I think thet in the end they, not the Israelis will see the no-win situation. Here's why. Unlike the Israelis, the Palestinians have gained nothing from violence. Absolutely nothing. Whereas the Israelis gained vasy territories, strategic lands, American strategic co-operations, a world-class army, international presitge and fear, the Palestinians have received nothing from violence.

For them, its really one step forward, two steps back. They launch the intifadah, and they lose Jerusalem. They blow up a disco and they lose effective PA governing. They blow up more busses and cafes and they've basically lost any freedom or dignity. It has achieved nothing. Right now, Jerusalem is a pipe dream.

Israel on the other hand, has hurt a little but has gained a lot. They still receive billions in aide, they have Arafat sleeping in a closet, and while they've lost a few hundred in the current conflict, their stern hold over the territories remains effectively unchallenged. They haven't lost much, but gained a ton of sympathy and the ability to shut down the Palestinian governance, society, and economy.

So, I think the Palestinians will change soon (real soon actually). I think we're going to see a PA iniated ceasefire, and I think attacks against Israel will end for the most part. After awhile, the negotiations will begin again.

TNNH


User currently offlineADG From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (12 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 463 times:

Whereas the Israelis gained vasy territories, strategic lands, American strategic co-operations, a world-class army, international presitge and fear, the Palestinians have received nothing from violence.

and you think this is something to boast about?

Seems to me that you've explained *why* the Palestinians have a problem with Isreal and *why* it is strategically advantageous to Isreal for the violence to continue.



VH-ADG


User currently offlineSAS23 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (12 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 450 times:

I've already posted this as a fresh thread, but I think it links in well with this one as well.

From today's Daily Telegraph:

The world must say what's fair for Israelis and Palestinians
By Anton La Guardia
(Filed: 11/04/2002)


THE faces of the dead are everywhere: pictures of Palestinian martyrs peeling off the walls of Palestinian cities, portraits of dead soldiers on Israeli television, newspaper photographs of ordinary Israelis wiped out in suicide attacks and valedictory video messages of the bombers themselves. The Holy Land has long been a place of violence, but rarely has blood been spilt so casually.

Too long a sacrifice, wrote W B Yeats, makes a stone of the heart. Liberal Israelis have turned into advocates of total war against the Palestinians; moderate Palestinians cheer the suicide bombers. Israelis see this as their own war on terrorism. Palestinians regard it as their belated war of independence. It is also a war between Ariel Sharon and Yasser Arafat in which each wants to destroy the other, politically if not physically.

The question for world leaders is how to stop the fighting and bring stability to the Middle East. Colin Powell, the US Secretary of State, arrives in Jerusalem tonight to seek a ceasefire as the Bush administration accepts that Israel's incursions into Palestinian cities are not simply the equivalent of America's war against the Taliban.

Here in Jerusalem, the issue is not just terrorism, but the complex century-old conflict between Zionism and Arab nationalism. In Afghanistan, there are no colonies of American settlers living on the edges of Kabul and Jalalabad declaring the land to be theirs. There are no US claims to own the cloak of Mohammed in Kandahar. There will be no cheering on the streets of Ramallah should Israeli troops kill Yasser Arafat.

In the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, security questions - terrorism and ceasefires - have to be pursued in parallel with resolving political problems - the military occupation of Palestinians and statehood. Israel will say that making political concessions to Palestinians at this time would amount to rewarding terrorism. The Palestinians say that to declare a ceasefire without assurances of independence would amount to a betrayal of its "martyrs".

The time has come for the world to declare what would constitute a fair agreement between Israel and the Palestinians. This is not a matter of imposing a settlement. It would be a means of salvaging something from the collapse of years of peace negotiations.

A fatal weakness of the Oslo accords was that they never stated the ultimate goal. The step-by-step process, leaving the hardest issues to last, was designed to create trust but instead built resentment. In contrast, the Camp David accords between Israel and Egypt in 1978 stated from the outset that Israel would withdraw completely from Sinai, and left the modalities of the retreat for later negotiations.

The word "Palestinian" does not appear anywhere in UN Security Council Resolution 242, the central pillar of all Middle East peace-making. The Palestinians are only a ghostly presence in a secondary passage calling for a "just settlement of the refugee problem", sandwiched between demands for freedom of navigation and exhortations for security measures such as buffer zones. It was only last month that the Security Council got around to "affirming a vision of a region where two states, Israel and Palestine, live side by side within secure and recognised borders".

This coyness is risible. There is no secret about what a two-state solution will look like: a Palestinian state on most of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, border adjustments and territorial exchanges, a shared arrangement for Jerusalem and its holy sites, the return of Palestinian refugees to the Palestinian state rather than to Israel, security guarantees for Israel and Arab recognition that it is a legitimate part of the Middle East, and a Palestinian promise to give up all further claims.

This is what most governments in the world believe is right, it is the basic demand of the Palestinian leadership and moderate Arab countries and is acceptable to a substantial number of Israelis - if calm is restored. Even Mr Sharon now accepts the principle of a Palestinian state.

What is sorely missing is trust. Israelis fear that the Palestinians will not settle for a two-state solution, but will use it as a springboard for more demands and resume terrorist attacks. Palestinians suspect that they will be cheated, and that once they halt the uprising, Israel will refuse to allow the establishment of a viable state.

This is where a new UN resolution could help. Stating clearly the parameters of peace would serve as a political barrier against the excesses of each side. Israel has long regarded international conferences as a means on exerting pressure on the Jewish state. Now the outside world could equally be used to exert pressure on a recalcitrant Yasser Arafat, who has long demanded "international legitimacy". It would be in Israel's interest for the united voice of the world - the West and Arab countries in particular - to declare, for instance, that Palestinian refugees will not return to Israel.

Before opening talks, however, Palestinians will have to halt terrorism and anti-Israeli incitement, while Israel will have to stop its offensive and freeze Jewish settlements. Others have important roles to play. Arab states can act as guarantors of Palestinian behaviour, international observers can add a further sense of security and, eventually, Nato could offer to extend its security umbrella to the eastern Mediterranean.

Simply passing a new resolution will not, of itself, end the bloodshed. It took the Palestinians more than 20 years to accept Resolution 242. It may take the departure of both Mr Sharon and Mr Arafat before the two sides can attempt to make peace again. Nevertheless, clear international guidelines for peace would give moderates on both sides - largely discredited during the 18 months of conflict - a base to rebuild their case for compromise. A clear sense of what awaits Israel and the Palestinians if and when the war ends may provide an incentive to end the killing.

Resolving the Palestinian question is not a concession to terrorism, but a victory against it. It would deny extremists such as Osama bin Laden the single most inflammatory rallying cry in the Islamic world.

Anton La Guardia is the author of Holy Land, Unholy War: Israelis and Palestinians