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Iraq Celebrates US Troop Pull-out?  
User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2334 times:

From The Guardian:

Iraq celebrates US troop pull-out on June 30th, declared a National Holiday.

The Iraqi prime minister, Nouri al-Maliki, fuelled US anger at the weekend by describing the withdrawal as the result of Iraq's successful bid to "repulse" the invaders. "We are on the threshold of a new phase that will bolster Iraq's sovereignty. It is a message to the world that we are now able to safeguard our security and administer our own affairs," Maliki said in an interview with the French newspaper Le Monde.

What gives? I would have thought the Iraqis would be grateful for the US liberating them from Saddam Hussein.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/28/iraq-holiday-us-withdrawal

71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7909 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2300 times:

I'm confident most Iraqis are happy we got rid of that madman (and yes, I've talked with A LOT of real US soldiers that have been over there, this isn't a bunch of Conservative lies) but still, no one wants military occupation. Can you imagine Bradleys or Strykers rolling down your street everyday? I think you misunderstood, they're grateful but happy we are pulling back.


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8153 posts, RR: 26
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2251 times:



Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
I'm confident most Iraqis are happy we got rid of that madman (and yes, I've talked with A LOT of real US soldiers that have been over there, this isn't a bunch of Conservative lies) but still, no one wants military occupation.

A woman interviewed on CNN Int'l this evening said just as much. She said she hated Saddam and feared for her family under his rule but "can't feel anything like freedom or a new life until I don't have to see Americans and their weapons in the street anymore".



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2238 times:

Seems like there are two points of view emerging in this thread:

1. The US had no business in Iraq, and that Iraqis would be outraged at foreign boots on their soil, not to mention the huge loss of life on their side.

2. Iraqis are grateful that Saddam is gone, but are tired of a military presence and want to get back to a normal life.

Looks like Point 1 is fast becoming a could've/should've issue for Iraqis, while Point 2 helps me understand the news item.

Falcon84, FLY2HMO, I'm fully with you but I started this thread to understand the other point of view.


User currently offlineDXing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2215 times:



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 4):
A woman interviewed on CNN Int'l this evening said just as much. She said she hated Saddam and feared for her family under his rule but "can't feel anything like freedom or a new life until I don't have to see Americans and their weapons in the street anymore".

Which could mean several things. It could mean that she hates Americans and wants to see them gone or that she loves Iraq and is happy that she is free, thanks the Americans for what they did but won't feel like Iraq is completely normal and "Iraq" until the Americans are gone. A one liner like the one that in Le Monde where Maliki says:

"The Iraqi prime minister, Nouri al-Maliki, fuelled US anger at the weekend by describing the withdrawal as the result of Iraq's successful bid to "repulse" the invaders. "We are on the threshold of a new phase that will bolster Iraq's sovereignty. It is a message to the world that we are now able to safeguard our security and administer our own affairs," Maliki said in an interview with the French newspaper Le Monde."

which doesn't really explain what he means. By "repulse the invader" does he really mean the insurgents and the AQ fighters that flooded the country from other nations? Or the Americans? It could be any or all for that matter. Also notice that the description is not in quotes which to me means that is not exactly what he said. This harkens back to when the left completely misinterpeted Maliki saying he wanted the U.S. out immediately a few months ago when the U.S. withdrawl was being negotiated.

I'm happy that the Iraqis will have a day of celebration. They certainly deserve it as it has been a long struggle to freedom. If some don't like the Americans that's fine, that's what part of what freedom is all about. I just hope they respect the price paid for their freedom.

I tried to find an english version of the interview with the relevant interview but no luck. I'd like to see that just to see the exact quote or how it was misinterpeted.

Quoting Comorin (Reply 5):
2. Iraqis are grateful that Saddam is gone, but are tired of a military presence and want to get back to a normal life.

I would think that is the real point that the citizens and Maliki are trying to make and I would agree with them. It has taken a long time and it has been a hard fight. Of course there will always be those that want to live in the world of your point number one no matter how prosperus Iraq without Saddam becomes.


User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6593 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2206 times:
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How much US Tax Payer money is being left on the ground for the people of Iraq?


Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2170 times:

Firstly I am glad out troops are moving out of there.

It is up to the Iraqi's now to maintain peace , establish there leadership and build a safe society for its people. It can be done .. the Iraqi people will be better of without that bastard running there lives and killing them.

As far as them being " tired of seeing US troops" I hope they don't have to get tired of seeing Suni and Shia terror gangs running around there streets.. I hope not .

Tactically speaking I can not help but fear that the enemy has been waiting for this day. They do not want to go head to head with us anymore . So they very well may simply be laying in wait. We are setting up a sort of Tet situation again . A major offensive by the enemy would be a huge victory for them ... and terribly destabilizing to the Iraqi government.



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2164 times:



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 8):
Tactically speaking I can not help but fear that the enemy has been waiting for this day. They do not want to go head to head with us anymore . So they very well may simply be laying in wait. We are setting up a sort of Tet situation again . A major offensive by the enemy would be a huge victory for them ... and terribly destabilizing to the Iraqi government.

I think it's very different from 'Nam because there was no civil war that we stepped into. The enemy in this case has always been around but well contained by the Iraqis themselves, no matter how unpleasantly they did it. Now that Iraq has a fully functioning Army and Police, I think the risk may just be one of political will.


User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6593 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2155 times:
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Quoting Michlis (Reply 8):
So the next time the UN or some other country thinks we should get involved militarily we should decline. Some countries that come to mind are South Korea, and the nations of the European union should the bear to the east get frisky.

The difference being, is that in those cases you are being asked to butt in.



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2150 times:



Quoting Comorin (Reply 7):
think it's very different from 'Nam because there was no civil war that we stepped into

A totally different military situation of course. But the effects of a enemy " shock offensive" no matter how successful would be a big deal. The International press would have a field day with it " the mission would be painted as a total failure and that would be that.

Since we have a Commander in Chief and leadership who agree that this all is a giant mistake ...it would be interesting to see what our next move would be.



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineMichlis From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 737 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2149 times:



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 9):
The difference being, is that in those cases you are being asked to butt in.

But under the comment I replied to the insuation is that we should be keep our noses out of everyone's business regardless of whether we're invited or not. While we're at it, let's stop cutting checks to everyone...that should take a chunk out of the budget deficit.



If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles.
User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6593 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2148 times:
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Quoting Michlis (Reply 11):
While we're at it, let's stop cutting checks to everyone...that should take a chunk out of the budget deficit.

How about asking Iraq to pay back the US tax payers money? That will help too



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineTSS From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 3068 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2136 times:



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 12):
How about asking Iraq to pay back the US tax payers money? That will help too

Since they didn't, as far as I know, invite us over there to depose Saddam in the first place I say we just consider this an expensive lesson learned and bow out with as much grace as possible.

As for the stated Iraqi attitude toward US forces... well, let's put ourselves in their position: Let's say we had the worst president ever, and a foreign power occupied our country specifically to remove him from power. Even if everything worked out for the best and we were much better off afterwards, wouldn't we still be more than a little pi$$ed off that a foreign power was occupying our country and meddling in our affairs?



Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
User currently offlineDXing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2129 times:

This probably sums up the popular sentiment in Iraq more accurately:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090629/ts_nm/us_iraq

"More than six years of U.S. occupation and the orgy of sectarian violence it unleashed have left most Iraqis feeling ambivalent about U.S. forces.

Many complain their lives have improved little since then, with daily struggles caused by power cuts and water shortages.

"They did a good job getting rid of that tyrant, Saddam, and we thank them for that, but it's really time for them to leave," said Talib Rasheed, 70, sitting outside in one of Baghdad's leafier suburbs. "Maybe they could leave us some electricity?"


Maybe they should copy and pass the cap and trade legislation the House just passed? Millions of green jobs could be created and their energy problems solved.  devil 


User currently offlineMichlis From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 737 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2129 times:



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 11):
How about asking Iraq to pay back the US tax payers money? That will help too

I don't have an issue with that...they owe us big time!

Quoting TSS (Reply 12):
As for the stated Iraqi attitude toward US forces... well, let's put ourselves in their position: Let's say we had the worst president ever, and a foreign power occupied our country specifically to remove him from power. Even if everything worked out for the best and we were much better off afterwards, wouldn't we still be more than a little pi$$ed off that a foreign power was occupying our country and meddling in our affairs?

No argument there.



If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles.
User currently offlineDXing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2118 times:



Quoting TSS (Reply 12):
Even if everything worked out for the best and we were much better off afterwards, wouldn't we still be more than a little pi$$ed off that a foreign power was occupying our country and meddling in our affairs?

I guess that would depend on how many of your relatives and friends had been killed or tortured by that Presidents regieme now wouldn't it? Whether or not you had to live in fear of someone ratting you out falsely just to save their skin?


User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2100 times:



Quoting DXing (Reply 13):
Millions of green jobs could be created and their energy problems solved.

Its a snap ! Solar panels and wind mills ... man why didn't we think of that earlier!

To the gentleman who asked about us leaving them some electricity ., I suggest he do some research in to the massive effort undertaken by the American people to fix the Iraqi power grid.

At least 10 US States sent hundreds of people from there utilities ...and we sent billions of dollars worth of grid equipment. The counties system was a complete basket case . With the grid for the entire country essentially being routed into Bathist strong holds so that it could be switched on and off at will.

If he wants electricity he better demand it from his government ... this should be a high priority for the new government.. somehow I don't believe they have the will or the vision to do it sadly. Its easier to just blame us ...



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6608 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2091 times:



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 6):
Tactically speaking I can not help but fear that the enemy has been waiting for this day. They do not want to go head to head with us anymore . So they very well may simply be laying in wait. We are setting up a sort of Tet situation again . A major offensive by the enemy would be a huge victory for them ... and terribly destabilizing to the Iraqi government.

Unfortunately, I think your analysis may prove to be quite accurate. I'm not sure how Obama would react. I don't think he would be willing to allow a big new surge, but maybe allow something smaller scale. But at some point in time, the Iraqis have to sink or swim on their own.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 16):
If he wants electricity he better demand it from his government ... this should be a high priority for the new government..

Whoa, since when are we trying to spread socialism to Iraq. Shouldn't electricity be a priority for the free market to provide? Just kidding........


User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 16
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2079 times:



Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 17):
Shouldn't electricity be a priority for the free market to provide? Just kidding........

A combined effort is what it will take. The electrical grid issue is going to be a major sign of how things are going.



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2070 times:



Quoting Comorin (Thread starter):
I would have thought the Iraqis would be grateful for the US liberating them from Saddam Hussein.

Oh, they are. But they did not expect the U.S. to be still in Iraq this long, that is the problem. By continuing to 'occupy' Iraq, it prevents the people of Iraq from continuing on with their normal lives. It is now their turn to make their country a better place. Iraqi's are just tired of U.S. troops in their country, that's all.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 5):
How much US Tax Payer money is being left on the ground for the people of Iraq?

None, I hope!!!

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 11):
How about asking Iraq to pay back the US tax payers money?

That would be nice, no argument there.

Quoting Michlis (Reply 14):
...they owe us big time!

IMO, they don't owe us anything, really. They didn't ask us to liberate them from Saddam. As a matter of fact, from what I have read on these boards and in the news was that the people of Iraq were doing just fine under Saddam's rule in the final 5 or so years before 2003.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineMham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3649 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2056 times:

I wouldn't believe a word from the European media on the subject. Like somebody said, the "repulse" remark is not directly quoted and could be manipulated to mean multiple things.

If I were Iraqi, I would be happy to see US troops off the streets too. Time to move on.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21634 posts, RR: 55
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2018 times:



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 6):
Tactically speaking I can not help but fear that the enemy has been waiting for this day. They do not want to go head to head with us anymore . So they very well may simply be laying in wait. We are setting up a sort of Tet situation again . A major offensive by the enemy would be a huge victory for them ... and terribly destabilizing to the Iraqi government.

But was that ever going to be avoided? Even if we stayed there ten more years, the terrorist elements could just wait it out - they're very well adapted to staying hidden. Sure, we could help root some of them out over that time, but that would be counterbalanced by the recruits they'd pick up as a result of Iraqi resentment for us hanging around.

It's going to happen eventually, we just have to hope for the best.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2007 times:

Really appreciate all the thoughtful and intelligent remarks so far.

Part 2 of my question concerns the 4000+ lives lost in this war. Again, there are two ways of looking at it:

1. Soldiers were carrying out a mission for their country. Casualties are to be expected - just like if you are a firefighter or policeman. An honorable death, in the fulfillment of one's duty. Comes with the job, which is why we honor them.

2. American lives, as well as Iraqi lives, were sacrificed so that Iraq could enjoy the fruits of democracy. If the Enemy returns to power, these lives were lost in vain.

To me, #1 seems more logical and applicable to a professional fighting force like the Armed Forces of the US. (I would like to include Allies as well).

What do you think?


User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6593 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2004 times:
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Quoting Comorin (Reply 22):
If the Enemy returns to power

Interesting. Roll with me here.. who was the enemy?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2000 times:



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 23):
who was the enemy?

That's easy: The members of the Baath Party.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
25 Mt99 : The ones holding the WMDs?
26 KiwiRob : Yup I'm sure the Iraqis were happy with the hundreds of thousands killed, it's not like liberating Europe from the Germans, these people didn't want
27 Mir : If that's the case, then I feel pretty confident that they won't be making a comeback. But what if the Iraqi democracy should turn into a religious t
28 Comorin : Jeez, You know, all the unshaven guys with bad teeth hurling IEDs, suicide bombs and so on. Anyone who fires at you is de facto an enemy ! One more c
29 KiwiRob : I'm basing my opinion what I have learnt from several Iraqis who I go to Norwegian course with, they would have preferred to keep the status quo rath
30 Mir : That's one viewpoint, and I perfectly understand it. But you can't extrapolate "several Iraqis" to the entire country. -Mir
31 DXing : Number 1, I'm sure that not all Iraqis feel that way. As quoted in the story I referenced at least one does not. Number 2, as I stated freedom means
32 MD-90 : There is a third way of looking at the war as well. Thousands of soldiers/contractors died and thousands more were maimed for life for nothing. They
33 DXing : And then the Death Star got blown up.
34 ME AVN FAN : They WERE, back in 2003. But they now are looking forward to get rid of the US forces. - - BOTH. And you should realize that the so-called "elQaeda"
35 Comorin : They died because they were doing their job. Even if you assume the Imperial soldier scenario, it still holds. You could say that they died serving A
36 AirframeAS : Uhhhh.....it was both as a matter of fact, IIRC....
37 Comorin : While I think Mir is posing a rhetorical question, it should be noted that Iraq was the most secular, middle-class country in the Middle East. Saddam
38 DeltaMD90 : Glad you think a few of my friends died for "nothing." I guess helping Iraqi citizens is not important who cares about them?
39 MD-90 : There's a word left unsaid there. Dying for nothing useful. How many hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens died as a result of our national governm
40 STT757 : The US is not pulling out, they are ending the street patrols and pulling back to several enduring bases outside of the major cities. There are still
41 NIKV69 : Yea those guys who cut people's heads off and blow stuff up would be much better.
42 Post contains links Baroque : Why is it so difficult to grasp that populations do NOT like being occupied? Ah, but has it really been learned? It was thought that the lessons of V
43 Ual777 : OVER 90% of all civilian casualties in Iraq have been caused by terrorist/insurgent forces NOT the US.
44 Aaron747 : Your statement, while ostensibly accurate, is ignorant of the reality that terrorist/insurgent forces in Iraq would not have been measurably present
45 Post contains links AGM100 : Suicide bomber attack on our troops last day in Baghdad . A kiss good buy from the heroes who made decent so politically advantages for our traitorous
46 Ual777 : No sir. Those deaths occured because the terrorist/insurgent forces CHOSE to slaughter innocents by the bushel. Was there a power vacuum? Yes. Howeve
47 Mir : No argument there, but that really is "for future reference" information at this point. As far as the current situation in Iraq goes, it's water unde
48 MD-90 : Would those deaths have occurred if we hadn't conquered their country?
49 AGM100 : When it comes to Washington politics it does .. every one of the democrats in major power positions now ..railed against the war. They used the bad n
50 DeltaMD90 : Maybe not in Iraq but surely in another country we would be in. I think eventually the good we did there will overtime outweigh the losses accumulate
51 Aaron747 : Does a fire start because someone dropped a match in a pile of leaves? You betcha. Doesn't change the fact that someone didn't clear the dry brush.
52 Mir : Your objection should be with the political system that exists in Washington, not just one half of it. The Republicans used the troops for political
53 ME AVN FAN : sorry, but WHAT was a "matter of fact" ? - - let's not forget that Iraq DID have a democratically elected parliament until 1958, until the end of the
54 AirframeAS : You can't read?! Okay...... Who was the highest member of the Ba'ath Party in 2003? I'll give you three guesses but you are only gonna need one......
55 DeltaMD90 : I'm a soldier, have a bunch of friends over, trust me, no one wants to be in. We want the job to get done, and to gtfo if you know what I mean (get t
56 Mike89406 : Not to change the topic, however I have been told from Army guys stationed over in Iraq that there is a high rate of illiteracy or maybe higher than A
57 Baroque : It is indeed under the bridge but that does not mean that lessons from it are irrelevant. The nature of the power system that the US has inserted (I
58 ME AVN FAN : - Most of the government of course were in the Ba'ath Party, and so, about half of the Top Brass of the Party WERE government folks. But Tariq Aziz f
59 AirframeAS : You still didn't answer my question.
60 ME AVN FAN : Sure I did. Here it is again - Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 54): Who was the highest member of the Ba'ath Party in 2003? - Most of the government of cou
61 Post contains links OA260 : Saddam: 'I Lied About WMD In Fear Of Iran' Saddam Hussein allowed the world to believe Iraq had weapons of mass destruction because he feared revealin
62 AirframeAS : No, you didn't. I'm asking for the HIGHEST member of the Ba'ath party in 2003, meaning....a person. But I will answer it for you since you cannot: It
63 ME AVN FAN : - again: Saddam Hussein al-Takriti - I did do so above, quite clearly.
64 DocLightning : And railing against the war = cheering for the terrorists? Oh, how 2003 of you!
65 ME AVN FAN : - what I find disturbing is that AGM... ignores the fact that most of the US soldiers in Iraq fell, not due to the politics of the opposition, but du
66 Michlis : No, rallying against the war = political profit. In a lot of cases those Democrats who initially supported the war effort (when the political winds w
67 Aaron747 : So you're denying then that the sheer incompetence of Don Rumsfeld doesn't bear some responsibility for a good portion of the 2003-2005 casualties??
68 Michlis : Lol, you wish. I'm not denying anything so don't try and pin that on me.
69 Baroque : Which was of course pointed out before the blasted war, but it became clear that Bush had collected all the troops there, he wanted a war and he was
70 AGM100 : AGM realizes exactly how our people died there.... I wish we had never gone there ... believe me . But once we were there I wanted our side to fight
71 ME AVN FAN : - This is called "politics". There was no public opposition in the USSR when they invaded Afghanistan .............. - while I DO believe you in this
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