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Sport Officiating/The Big Four US Sports  
User currently offlineTiger119 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1919 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 2 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3221 times:

I have always wondered about this and I am pretty sure I know the answer, but I am going to ask anyway. The "Big Four" major sports in the U.S. are baseball, basketball, football and hockey (MLB, NBA, NFL and NHL). Some people would argue that motor racing ranks right up there and they may be correct although my question is about the officiating crews and I even know that it's the same officials at every track every weekend. MLB has four umpires at every game (unless one gets injured and then they ump with just the one behind the catcher and two on the bases). The exception to that one is during the playoffs when they add an ump down each line. NBA has three refs per game. NHL has a ref and two linesmen. NFL has who knows how many per game. Now all that for the question. Due these crews work together all the time or do they mix them up during the season? And another question. Are NBA, NHL and MLB officials full time employees of their leagues? I don't think NFL officials are full time.


Flying is the second greatest thrill known to mankind, landing is the first!
31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineOffshoreAir From United States of America, joined May 2009, 177 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3207 times:



Quoting Tiger119 (Thread starter):
Due these crews work together all the time or do they mix them up during the season?

If I remember correctly, in college the crews do stick together. It is usually something like SEC ref's go and ref a Big10 game, PAC10 ref's go and ref an ACC game, and so on, but usually, (again, if I remember correctly) they stick together for a season?

Quoting Tiger119 (Thread starter):
And another question. Are NBA, NHL and MLB officials full time employees of their leagues? I don't think NFL officials are full time.

I am not sure of the answer here, but I would think with their pay, putting in a full sports season of reffing one of these sports pays enough for them to have a very comfortable living and not have to work during the off-season. From what I hear, NFL ref's get paid significantly more, but then again, they only ref 16 games as opposed to the season of the MLB or NHL. I would hazard a guess that a veteran MLB coach pushes $200K per season.



OffshoreAir
User currently offlineUs330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3871 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3202 times:

NHL now has two refs and two linesmen per game.
During the regular season, they mix it up, just to ensure that everybody is on their game and nobody develops any bad or lax habits.
In the playoffs, the roster of refs and linesmen shorten dramatically. By the time you get to the Stanley Cup Finals, four refs and four linesmen are selected to work the finals, and the group scheduled to work varies game to game.


User currently offlineFlyMIA From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7147 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3188 times:

I know for sure that NBA refs mix it up throughout the season. I dont know much about NHL refs and I never really noticed much about NFL refs. But NBA and MLB refs do get paid a decent amount and thats really there full time job. MLB work really hard though and their season is LONG. But I have heard the older guys do make more than $200,000 I would imagine it be the same for NBA too. Its not an easy job and they travel and are away from home a lot but it seems like a very cool job and the pay and benefits are great. But in pro sports I dont see how they would ever let the same refs referee every game together just would not make sense.


"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineElite From Hong Kong, joined Jun 2006, 2796 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3187 times:

The NBA referees are rotated around (in random order, I believe) during the regular season, but there is some sort of seniority order during the playoffs.

And refs are paid pretty decently, yet a lot of NBA refs are bastards... who can't tell a flop when everyone else can, who ejects people for laughing, who have bad attitude, and worst of all rigging games! As a huge NBA fan this is one of the worst aspects of this great game.


User currently offlineOffshoreAir From United States of America, joined May 2009, 177 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3179 times:



Quoting Elite (Reply 4):
And refs are paid pretty decently, yet a lot of NBA refs are bastards... who can't tell a flop when everyone else can, who ejects people for laughing, who have bad attitude, and worst of all rigging games!

When has this happened recently?

Rigging games? Come on, we aren't in grade school anymore.



OffshoreAir
User currently offlineGQfluffy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3174 times:



Quoting OffshoreAir (Reply 5):
Rigging games? Come on, we aren't in grade school anymore.

Exactly. It happens...all the time. Time to wake up.


User currently offlineOffshoreAir From United States of America, joined May 2009, 177 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3167 times:



Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 6):
Exactly. It happens...all the time. Time to wake up.

When?



OffshoreAir
User currently offlineElite From Hong Kong, joined Jun 2006, 2796 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3147 times:

Tim Donaghy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Donaghy
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/column...columnist=munson_lester&id=2976241

Joey Crawford ejecting Tim Duncan for laughing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu1Wz5JQEz8&feature=fvst
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2840587

NBA Major Flops:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoc8Ei9xk8g


User currently offlineOffshoreAir From United States of America, joined May 2009, 177 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3130 times:



Quoting Elite (Reply 8):
Tim Donaghy:

Ok, Tim Donaghy was a pretty messed up sitatuion, as well as the Tim Duncan thing, but two instances hardly make a trend.

Quoting Elite (Reply 8):

NBA Major Flops:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoc8E...9xk8g

That whole video is terrible acting on the players part - it reminds me of some specific European soccer teams/players.



OffshoreAir
User currently offlineFlyMIA From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7147 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3113 times:



Quoting Elite (Reply 4):
And refs are paid pretty decently, yet a lot of NBA refs are bastards... who can't tell a flop when everyone else can, who ejects people for laughing, who have bad attitude, and worst of all rigging games! As a huge NBA fan this is one of the worst aspects of this great game.

Well I don't know about rigging games but NBA is not longer the sport it used to be. I am a NBA fan it is my favorite sport to watch, play etc.. But the NBA seems like its for little 5 year old girls now. Way too many fouls. Basketball should be a semi-contact sport. Gone are the good days of Alonzo Mourning and Patrick Ewing, Scottie Pippin and Karl Malone those where basketball players. Dont get me wrong Dwayne Wade, Lebron, Kobe etc.. are GREAT but just too many fouls! Let them play, let the big men be a little physical.

Quoting OffshoreAir (Reply 9):
Ok, Tim Donaghy was a pretty messed up sitatuion, as well as the Tim Duncan thing, but two instances hardly make a trend.

Flopping is a huge problem in this league! I HATE it, all the fake fouls and so many of the international players flop even more than others. Guess they are just used to seeing in while watching soccer (football) when they were growing up



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineCorocks From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1213 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3102 times:

This is not at all official given the source, but here is a list from 2005:

NBA: 90k-400k
MLB: 87k-357k
NFL: 34k-147k

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1608/is_5_21/ai_n13779034/

Pretty surprised at how low the NFL salary is.


User currently offlineRGElectra80 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 361 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3096 times:



Quoting Corocks (Reply 11):
Pretty surprised at how low the NFL salary is.

That's actually quite a nice lump of cash for the amount of work. Even if you factor in the fact they probably have meetings or have to review tapes and rulebooks, that can't possibly add up to more than a couple of months of work a year, tops. Unless you're Ed Hochuli, then you are working on your biceps all year long. Big grin



Feel free to check out my Flight Diary: flightdiary.net/alenart
User currently offlineYooyoo From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 6057 posts, RR: 50
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3095 times:



Quoting Corocks (Reply 11):
Pretty surprised at how low the NFL salary is.

I'm not, considering the quality.  Wink

Seriously.....16 games a season may have something to do with it?

As for the NHL refs, i heard once they make between $100,000 - $250,000 and linesmen between $75,000 -$150,000...depnding on their experience.



I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
User currently offlineFlyMIA From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7147 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3080 times:



Quoting Corocks (Reply 11):
Pretty surprised at how low the NFL salary is.

Sounds great to me to only work lets say July-Febuary if they have meetings a month before and after the season. And than one day a week of 'real' work.
As for NBA, NHL, MLB they earn their money as long as they are good.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineJfk69 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1418 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3068 times:

I will touch in a few answers which have been answered already.

The NFL refs are part time. They all work or have businesses and treat this more as a paid hobby.

The NHL has 2 refs and 2 linesman a game which are rotated throughout the season, until playoff time when you basically become a crew and work a series.

I spoke to a friend of mine who works for the NHL and he said they refs make anywhere from $115k -$250k with bonuses for playoff work. Linesman make a little bit less but not signifigant.


User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8897 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3062 times:

MLB, NFL and NCAA Football crews stick together for the season.

NCAA Basketball refs change around all the time - they're considered contract workers and bounce around between several leagues and do as many games as they want/can.


User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3057 times:



Quoting Jfk69 (Reply 15):

The NHL has 2 refs and 2 linesman a game which are rotated throughout the season, until playoff time when you basically become a crew and work a series.

And the playoff refs are determined by how good of a job they did over the course of the season. This explains why Mick McGeough only ever officiated 63 post-season games and only one Stanley Cup Finals. Thank goodness he retired after the '07-08 season.


User currently offlineFlyMIA From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7147 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3057 times:



Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 16):
NCAA Basketball refs change around all the time - they're considered contract workers and bounce around between several leagues and do as many games as they want/can.

I noticed that and for the biggest leagues I hate this they just dont seem as professional as other referees and IMO are no where near as good.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3054 times:



Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 18):
I noticed that and for the biggest leagues I hate this they just dont seem as professional as other referees and IMO are no where near as good

Being a top level ref is a lot like trying to be a top level player. Most ref's start out with near volunteer level local games and progress when their skill or experience or talent show. It also takes a lot of drive and focus on that career to make the 'big leagues'.

A lot of folks never get out of A or AA level, or lower.

But like coaches, there are many folks who prefer working at the college level to the pro level.


Quoting Tiger119 (Thread starter):
motor racing ranks right up there and they may be correct although my question is about the officiating crews and I even know that it's the same officials at every track every weekend.

Most of the folks you see in major auto racing circuits are part-timers. Some can work only a few races, some work a lot. Yes, all the major groups have a small core of professional staff who make the really important decisions.

The big difference between the 'big four' sports and auto racing, in the US or in other nations, is that auto racing is officiated by the owners of the sanctioning body. Not by 'independent' officials.

No matter what happens, the NBA commissioner cannot change a call in the middle of a game, but the President of NASCAR can change a call in the middle of a race.


User currently offlineYooYoo From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 6057 posts, RR: 50
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3050 times:



Quoting Srbmod (Reply 17):
Thank goodness he retired after the '07-08 season.

Really!!?....oh wow, we should have a party!!



I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
User currently offlineElite From Hong Kong, joined Jun 2006, 2796 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3035 times:



Quoting OffshoreAir (Reply 9):
Ok, Tim Donaghy was a pretty messed up sitatuion, as well as the Tim Duncan thing, but two instances hardly make a trend.

Tim Donaghy also insisted other referees were in on it, especially during the controversial 2002 Western Conference Finals between the Sacramento Kings and the Los Angeles Lakers. However, it was never proven. And there have been a lot of instances like that, I just didn't dig them out yet.

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 10):
NBA is not longer the sport it used to be.

The NBA has become so soft, and players like Tony Parker and Bruce Bowen and Robert Horry (all San Antonio Spurs players...) are known for their flopping and cheap shots. Sure, players now are bigger, buffer, and stronger than ever, but they couldn't take half of what Michael Jordan took from the Bad Boys. No way. LeBron would probably cry. Kobe would retire.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3011 times:



Quoting Tiger119 (Thread starter):
MLB has four umpires at every game (unless one gets injured and then they ump with just the one behind the catcher and two on the bases). The exception to that one is during the playoffs when they add an ump down each line.

Don't forget the ASG gets the same amount of umpires as the playoffs from both sides of the league, and based on seniority, I believe.

Quoting Tiger119 (Thread starter):
Due these crews work together all the time or do they mix them up during the season?

I know the MLB crews do.

Quoting Elite (Reply 8):
....ejecting Tim Duncan for laughing....

The exact same thing happened to Raja Bell in 2008 between the Suns and Nuggets in Denver on April 1, 2008.....but it was by a different ref.

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 16):
NCAA Football crews stick together for the season.

I didn't know that. How do they do this for the non-conference games? Are the refs from the home team's conference or are they mixed up?



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3000 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 22):
How do they do this for the non-conference games? Are the refs from the home team's conference or are they mixed up?

It depends upon the game and teams involved. The officiating crew used is part of the contract negotiations between the two teams when non-conference games are scheduled.

Unlike pro games where teams have to play a schedule set by one group, NCAA non-conference games only occur when the two teams agree to play and negotiate a contract for the game which often includes revenue splits and always includes officiating.

Sometimes it is a home team conference, if the two teams are expected to be in a position for a major title / bowl - they will often select a crew from a third conference.


User currently offlineGarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5386 posts, RR: 53
Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2992 times:



Quoting YooYoo (Reply 20):
Really!!?....oh wow, we should have a party!!

We should, but this season also saw the end of the line for Kerry Frasier and Bill McCreary. Lots of refs with a ton of experience have retired in the last few years and their replacements, fresh up from the AHL, face a steep learning curve. I think I heard that this is some of the worst churn in the NHL in quite some time.



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
25 Srbmod : I do remember yelling myself hoarse at a Thrashers game several years back because of McGeough...... Of course one of my favorite things to yell out
26 AirframeAS : That make sense, I didn't know that. I do know the rules are a little bit different between the conferences, if a crew from a third conference comes
27 Tiger119 : - Does he or she have that much power to control the outcome of a race? What about F1? Does Bernie (sp) have that control? I would ask about Tony Geo
28 AirframeAS : All Star Game.
29 RFields5421 : NASCAR, Yes, but Mike Helton and Brian France are also very aware of the need to be fair to all teams. Two incidents I can think of recently. During
30 Post contains links Smcmac32msn : MLB gets a 7 week on, 1 week off schedule as of this year. We've seen a bunch of minor league umps up for a series or two with different crews so far
31 Tiger119 : - Indianapolis has a Triple A baseball team (I think they are affiliated with The Milwaukee Brewers) and their games during the regular season usuall
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