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Muslims Riot In China  
User currently offlineStasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3280 posts, RR: 6
Posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 3519 times:

"At least 129 people were killed in in rioting by a Muslim ethnic group in China's far west, state media said Monday. The brief report from Xinhua news agency gave no more details.
Protesters, mostly from the Uighur ethnic group, set dozens of cars on fire and attacked buses in several hours of violence in the Xinjiang province city of Urumqi on Sunday."

This happened as an ethnic independence movement. The Uyghers have been severely oppressed by the Chinese government because they are Muslims. Human rights organizations have become concerned that a "war on terror" is being used by the Chinese government as a pretext to repress ethnic Uyghurs. Uyghur exile groups also claim that the Chinese government is suppressing Uyghur culture and religion, and responding to demands for independence with human rights violations. According to some human rights groups, the Chinese government has decimated Uyghur culture.

Source: Associated Press article via MSNBC website @ http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31753771/ns/world_news-asiapacific/


"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
117 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3280 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3496 times:

An update from the BBC News:

"Violence in China's restive western region of Xinjiang has left at least 140 people dead and more than 800 injured, state media say.Several hundred people have also been arrested after the violence erupted in the city of Urumqi on Sunday.

Xinhua news agency said police restored order after demonstrators attacked passers-by and set fire to vehicles. The protest was reportedly prompted by a deadly fight between Uighurs and Han Chinese in southern China last month."

Source and video: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8135203.stm



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17420 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3428 times:

I was just in Urumqi last month and it's so bizarre to see a place that might as well be the Denver of China in the news for such violence.


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineSW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6314 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3408 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 2):
I was just in Urumqi last month and it's so bizarre to see a place that might as well be the Denver of China in the news for such violence.

I am always very intrigued by Xinjiang. I practically minored in Chinese Politics (interesting since my major was Aero Engineering), and I had a particular fondness for Xinjiang and the Uygher people - they fascinated me much more than the Tibetans that everyone else is stuck on.

I think the interesting thing here is the lack of news. Last year, 22 (?) Tibetans were killed in riots and the western world was practically falling over themselves to say how horrible it was...here, 140 and counting Uyghers die and most people (a) have never heard of them, and (b) could give a damn. I am not saying the PRC is at fault, I am not saying the Uyghers are at fault, I am just saying that is what I am interested in...

Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
This happened as an ethnic independence movement. The Uyghers have been severely oppressed by the Chinese government because they are Muslims.

Well, it's not quite that simple. Both sides are at fault. There are instances where Uyghers have blown up buses in Beijing. I will never forget one of my professors telling me he was coming out of a subway station in central Beijing about 8 years ago and just as he was coming out, a bus exploded nearby as a result of the Uyghers. Neither side is really innocent...flame me all you want for that statement.

Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
According to some human rights groups, the Chinese government has decimated Uyghur culture.

Urumqi now has more Han than Uygher people...so the culture shift is really inevitable. The city is 2.6 million, so lets look at Chicago as a comparison. Imagine only 13% of Chicago being Caucasian, and 75% being, oh, well, Chinese. Would you be surprised if Chinese culture became dominant in Chicago? That's the case we have in Urumqi. In fact, in the Xinjiang Uygher Autonomous Region as a whole, Uyghers only outnumber Han 45% to 41%, so the Uygher culture is likely to not be as strong as it once was.

Also note that in just 5 years this decade, the GDP of Xinjiang doubled, largely due to efforts of the PRC government in their China Western Development program (yes, I pulled that off wikipedia, but it is a fact)


Please don't take this as me being pro-one side and anti-other side...I am simply giving a different view of Xinjiang


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17420 posts, RR: 46
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3373 times:



Quoting SW733 (Reply 3):
Last year, 22 (?) Tibetans were killed in riots and the western world was practically falling over themselves to say how horrible it was...here, 140 and counting Uyghers die and most people (a) have never heard of them, and (b) could give a damn

 checkmark   checkmark  I've wondered about that; it was hard not to notice the parallels between Xinjiang and Tibet. I think it all comes down to the fact that the Tibetans have a charismatic leader that the Uighur do not. They also subscribe to a religion that has been coopted by the airheads in hollywood, stoners in Boulder, Vegans in Seattle, etc, as their own, while Islam is still very much "the establishment" and therefore not progressive enough to deserve sympathy.

Quoting SW733 (Reply 3):
Also note that in just 5 years this decade, the GDP of Xinjiang doubled, largely due to efforts of the PRC government in their China Western Development program

The same has happened in Tibet from what I understand; as much as everyone wants to think Tibet was some nirvanna or Garden of Eden before the big bad Chinese arrived, it's simply not the case.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineSW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6314 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3367 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
The same has happened in Tibet from what I understand

Absolutely true. I once had to do a report about who we thought would flourish more from independence - Tibet or Xinjiang. My opinion was, hands down, Xinjiang. Tibet does not really have much to drive their economy...at least, they have less than Xinjiang, which in turn has a lot less than other Han-centered provinces of China (Fujian, Shandong, Hubei, Shaanxi, etc. etc.)

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
I think it all comes down to the fact that the Tibetans have a charismatic leader that the Uighur do not

I agree on this as well. Tenzin Gyatso (today's Dalai Lama) is the spiritual leader of Tibet, but the Uygher's do not have this. They just go along as part of their massive worldwide religion and do not stand out like the Tibetans do. Sometimes this is good, sometimes this is bad. What it really means is they do not get the press that the Tibetans do.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17420 posts, RR: 46
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3343 times:



Quoting SW733 (Reply 5):
They just go along as part of their massive worldwide religion

I got the impression during the week I spent between Xian and Urumqi that the Uighurs are Uighur first and Muslim second, and a distant second at that. Islam seemed like it was more of a cultural influence (the architecture, art, skull cap, dress, etc), rather than a strong religious influence but I could be wrong.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineSW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6314 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3337 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):
I got the impression during the week I spent between Xian and Urumqi that the Uighurs are Uighur first and Muslim second, and a distant second at that. Islam seemed like it was more of a cultural influence (the architecture, art, skull cap, dress, etc), rather than a strong religious influence but I could be wrong.

That would make sense. As much as I have studied Xinjiang, I have never been (  Sad ), and all my books simply cannot come close to competing with on-the-ground experience, seeing with your own eyes, so I would take your word on that in a second.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19510 posts, RR: 58
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3322 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):

I got the impression during the week I spent between Xian and Urumqi that the Uighurs are Uighur first and Muslim second, and a distant second at that. Islam seemed like it was more of a cultural influence (the architecture, art, skull cap, dress, etc), rather than a strong religious influence but I could be wrong.

That could be said about a number of more familiar examples. For example, the Mayans who are Catholic... and yet openly practice magic, witchcraft, and other forms of "black magic." The Mexicans who take a spiritual journey aided by the peyote cactus consider themselves to be Catholic.

If there is such a wide variety in such a denomination as Catholocism, then we would expect an equally wide variety in Islam.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17420 posts, RR: 46
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3305 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
If there is such a wide variety in such a denomination as Catholocism, then we would expect an equally wide variety in Islam.

Yeah but this isn't your garden variety Muslims-trying-to-establish-a-Caliphate but rather an ethnic group that wants further autonomy from China, who happen to be Muslim. I'm not sure how much of a role Islam plays here but it doesn't seem to me to be the defining factor.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3282 times:

MaverickM11,

Quote:
I got the impression during the week I spent between Xian and Urumqi that the Uighurs are Uighur first and Muslim second, and a distant second at that. Islam seemed like it was more of a cultural influence (the architecture, art, skull cap, dress, etc), rather than a strong religious influence but I could be wrong.



Quote:
Yeah but this isn't your garden variety Muslims-trying-to-establish-a-Caliphate but rather an ethnic group that wants further autonomy from China, who happen to be Muslim. I'm not sure how much of a role Islam plays here but it doesn't seem to me to be the defining factor.

Interesting take on the matter -- still, I'm not sure if it's true though


Blackbird

[Edited 2009-07-06 14:43:29]

User currently onlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2425 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3266 times:

Muslim victims hardly make for good news in the west...

Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
According to some human rights groups, the Chinese government has decimated Uyghur culture.

Nothing new here.

Quoting SW733 (Reply 3):
Urumqi now has more Han than Uygher people...so the culture shift is really inevitable.

Is this trend of Han migration not due to extensive resettlement programs?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):
I got the impression during the week I spent between Xian and Urumqi

How did you travel this sector? Xinjiang UAR seems like an interesting place to visit. I'd like to drive part of the old Silk Road actually.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3256 times:



Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
The Uyghurs have been severely oppressed by the Chinese government because they are Muslims

-
I am not an expert for Chinese affairs but I doubt that the Uighurs were oppressed for being Muslims. I suppose they were oppressed because the Chinese government suspects the Uighurs of secessionist desires.


User currently offlineTugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5502 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3247 times:



Quoting SW733 (Reply 3):
Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
According to some human rights groups, the Chinese government has decimated Uyghur culture.

Urumqi now has more Han than Uygher people...so the culture shift is really inevitable. The city is 2.6 million, so lets look at Chicago as a comparison. Imagine only 13% of Chicago being Caucasian, and 75% being, oh, well, Chinese. Would you be surprised if Chinese culture became dominant in Chicago? That's the case we have in Urumqi. In fact, in the Xinjiang Uygher Autonomous Region as a whole, Uyghers only outnumber Han 45% to 41%, so the Uygher culture is likely to not be as strong as it once was.

Yes, it is a problem, and the USA has had to deal with it often. Do you respect the local people's autonomy and culture or do you allow people to move around freely and not allow racial/religious/ethnic identities to dictate what can be done? Of course in the USA the locality is allowed a certain amount of control and is allowed to somewhat guard their history and heritage. And people are allowed to freely move around the country. In China what is happening is dictated by the government and outside forces with little respect for the local wishes. Do you think the Communist Han governor cares about the locals desires?

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 12):
I am not an expert for Chinese affairs but I doubt that the Uighurs were oppressed for being Muslims. I suppose they were oppressed because the Chinese government suspects the Uighurs of secessionist desires.

Oh, I think their being/identifying as Muslims is as big a factor as anything. The Chinese government is paranoid about any religion, look at what they have done to Falun Gong.
Any identity as anything else is strongly "discouraged" as it is seen as/could become a threat to the Communist leadership's power.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineSW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6314 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3245 times:



Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 11):

Is this trend of Han migration not due to extensive resettlement programs?

It is largely due to Han migration into Xinjiang. In the 1950's, there was a Han population of less than 10% (more like 7 to 8%)...now it's 41% Han in Xinjiang. Much of this started because the Chinese government wanted to make Xinjiang a more developed area of China, and convinced the Han to move there and work, and they stayed, had kids, etc. etc.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 12):
I am not an expert for Chinese affairs but I doubt that the Uighurs were oppressed for being Muslims. I suppose they were oppressed because the Chinese government suspects the Uighurs of secessionist desires.

 checkmark 


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17420 posts, RR: 46
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3240 times:



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 10):
Interesting take on the matter -- still, I'm not sure if it's true though

It's just based on my time there plus reading up on the subject, particularly the Lonely Planet guide, which to my surprise was much less pro-Tibet than I would have guessed.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 11):
Muslim victims hardly make for good news in the west...

True...but like I said, they seem to be Uighurs first and Muslim by happenstance.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 11):
How did you travel this sector? Xinjiang UAR seems like an interesting place to visit. I'd like to drive part of the old Silk Road actually.

We took a train from PEK and I can't recommend it enough. We stopped in Xian, Dunhuang, and Tulufan, on our way to Urumqi--all big mileposts on the Silk Road. Chinese drivers are disturbing--take the train!

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 12):
I am not an expert for Chinese affairs but I doubt that the Uighurs were oppressed for being Muslims. I suppose they were oppressed because the Chinese government suspects the Uighurs of secessionist desires.

 checkmark  There are also the Hui in China, who are Muslim but look more like Han Chinese than the Uighurs who look more like Uzbeks/Kazakhs/etc, and I don't think they're oppressed at all in any way similar to their distance cousins out West.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 3198 times:



Quoting Tugger (Reply 13):
Oh, I think their being/identifying as Muslims is as big a factor as anything. The Chinese government is paranoid about any religion, look at what they have done to Falun Gong.
Any identity as anything else is strongly "discouraged" as it is seen as/could become a threat to the Communist leadership's power.

-
As you correctly say "a factor". But whenever a factor, I still assume the ethnic aspect to be the really important one. Falun Gong is a religious thing, but the Uyghurs are an ethnic group. You may compare it with Tibet, which however would be wrong in so far as religion in case of Tibet and the Dalai Lama is a very heavy factor. Interesting is to see that some Uyghurs who were in Guantanamo got asylum in the Bahamas (or was it Bermuda ? ) , anyway nicely away from China.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8472 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3193 times:

I almost took a trip to Urumqi once, but anyway.... never made it that far west.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 15):
and I don't think they're oppressed at all in any way similar to their distance cousins out West

But, in what way are they oppressed? I am not too clear on it. They live in a country called China. I would be pretty depressed too if my homeland were a Chinese satellite. Maybe their ancestors should have fought harder in 1949. But that's that. China owns their land now...

Same opinion about Tibet... China's borders are well known to everyone. It is sour grapes to wish that Beijing did not control the Chinese territory. They do... It really sucks for some people who wish the land belonged to their tribe still. But it does not... it belongs to Beijing. Xinjiang is supposed to be an autonomous region, but this is not really an active truth yet, from how it appears.


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3462 posts, RR: 17
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3184 times:
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Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 11):
Muslim victims hardly make for good news in the west...

Not only in China but also in Germany
Weird Silence (by SOBHI51 Jul 6 2009 in Non Aviation)



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineAfterburner From Indonesia, joined Jun 2005, 1209 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3143 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):
I got the impression during the week I spent between Xian and Urumqi that the Uighurs are Uighur first and Muslim second, and a distant second at that. Islam seemed like it was more of a cultural influence (the architecture, art, skull cap, dress, etc), rather than a strong religious influence but I could be wrong.



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 9):
Yeah but this isn't your garden variety Muslims-trying-to-establish-a-Caliphate but rather an ethnic group that wants further autonomy from China, who happen to be Muslim. I'm not sure how much of a role Islam plays here but it doesn't seem to me to be the defining factor.



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 12):
I am not an expert for Chinese affairs but I doubt that the Uighurs were oppressed for being Muslims. I suppose they were oppressed because the Chinese government suspects the Uighurs of secessionist desires.

So I think it is clear that this thread's title "Muslims Riot In China" is not quite right. Replace the word "Muslims" with "Uighurs".


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17420 posts, RR: 46
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3128 times:



Quoting Afterburner (Reply 19):
So I think it is clear that this thread's title "Muslims Riot In China" is not quite right. Replace the word "Muslims" with "Uighurs".

 checkmark  It seems almost like saying instead of Puerto Rico wanted to secede from the US that "Catholics Want Independence". True many PR residents are Catholic but it's not quite the whole story.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 18):
Not only in China but also in Germany

The two couldn't be more different. Crazed lunatics are everywhere and don't represent systemic oppression.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 17):
But, in what way are they oppressed? I am not too clear on it. They live in a country called China. I would be pretty depressed too if my homeland were a Chinese satellite. Maybe their ancestors should have fought harder in 1949. But that's that. China owns their land now...

I'm not an expert in the slightest, but I think Tibetans/Uighur are culturally different from the Han Chinese, whereas the Hui are basically Han Chinese that happen to be Muslim. I think they feel oppressed by the Chinese "occupation" of their territory, and the limitation of their rights since the Chinese want to minimize any separatist tendencies.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3462 posts, RR: 17
Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3127 times:
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Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 20):
The two couldn't be more different

Was talking about news lack of interest, not similarity.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2071 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3115 times:



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 21):
Was talking about news lack of interest

Where are you based? Both events were extensively covered in the news around here.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3462 posts, RR: 17
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3112 times:
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Quoting Rara (Reply 22):
Where are you based?

Actually i am now in the USA for a knee operation.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17420 posts, RR: 46
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3110 times:



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 21):
Was talking about news lack of interest, not similarity.

I caught on the news, but honestly it's not a huge event. It's unfortunate to be sure, but a lunatic murdering someone is sadly all too common.



E pur si muove -Galileo
25 AlexEU : Similar as what Indonesian gov is doing to West Papua province. They are sending Indonesian Muslims in order to Islamize the mainly Christian populat
26 SW733 : I have my BS in Aerospace Engineering (working on my MS), but one of my pet peeves is that science/math/engineering majors are forced to study just o
27 Flighty : M11, yes I think we agree that the uighurs are unhappy. But it's not "their" territory anymore. On a map it is clearly under the control of Beijing. F
28 Afterburner : This is completely wrong. Where on earth did you get this information? Indonesian government never do such activity. European colonialism did that. I
29 B2443 : Who said the dead were Uyghers? I thought this whole thing was Uygher violence against Han's.
30 Afterburner : It's not a problem when they move there because they want to, not have to (maybe because of a mobilization by the government)
31 ME AVN FAN : - Nearer by, you can see what Italy has done with the southern half of the South Tirol since taking it over in 1920. France tried it with Alsace, but
32 Afterburner : Maybe I was wrong understanding the word "islamize". If the word "islamize" means converting christians to muslims, then it's wrong. If it means popu
33 Post contains links Tugger : It means to forcibly change the cultural, social, and ethnic dynamics of an area. And it is not just Islam that does it. Based on what you say here:
34 AlexEU : What country? Uyghurs never had a country. They had a culture, and it is (unfortunately for them) harder to save their culture because of Han Chinese
35 Flyingwaeldar : If you really think that anybody in China has the right to move and settle where they want, be it Han Chinese or any other group, you don't know too
36 MaverickM11 : I think you're confusing me with someone who has picked a side in this debate. It sounds like both in this round and in Tibet it was mostly Han victi
37 Afterburner : Forcing a religion was not the reason for the migration program. Moreover, now, the involuntary migration program is not conducted anymore. I agree t
38 SW733 : Oh man I'm backing out of this one, I smell an all out war between you two! On a.net? If so, I uh don't know how to check it...woops.
39 Post contains images Afterburner : A war? Naaah. He wrote what he thinks are right and I wrote what I believe are right. Discussions can heat up sometimes. edit: grammar[Edited 2009-07
40 AlexEU : LOL I just noticed that you don't have e-mail I don't want to get in another Balkans thread (we had thousands of them...), and yes what happened in S
41 SW733 : That's what makes them fun!
42 Flighty : It wasn't really my point that China is so free. Instead, it was that their country generally has the right to use its own lands (i.e., the Chinese p
43 B2443 : There are a lot of Han's that WANT to go there for economic reasons. And Let's not forget the fact that Han had been there BEFORE the Uygers immigrat
44 SOBHI51 : Being there before does not give you the right to come back centuries later and kick whoever there out. Reminds me of another conflict somewhere else
45 OzGlobal : Not from the Indonesian government... Come on; reality check. The Indonesian government of Javanese muslims has been creating Javanese muslim settlem
46 ME AVN FAN : - Yes you were wrong. Wrong in so far as you "fell" into that gap created by the mentioning of religion. Your national government, just as uncountabl
47 Post contains links StasisLAX : The Associated Press is reporting: "Thousands of Chinese troops flooded into this city Wednesday to separate feuding ethnic groups after three days of
48 B2443 : I didn't think of those had to be related...If you have to link "right" to history, no one has the right. In case you still believe the Uyguers were
49 SOBHI51 : They will not resort to terrorist tactics unless they feel threatened.
50 B2443 : In the past few days they have killed people, burned shops, cars and made a hell of a mess in Urumuqi, just because they felt 'threathened'? And thre
51 Allrite : Anti Chinese and, in China, anti-Han Chinese riots are relatively common in the Asia Pacific for a variety of reasons. Some of it is simple jealousy
52 Flighty : Hey, what more would you want... the troops are going in to "separate" the warring parties. It sounds like the right move to me. China is eager to as
53 Post contains links Flyingwaeldar : Do people from the countryside have the right to freely move, say to Shanghai or Beijing or one of the big cities in the south and settle there for g
54 Allrite : Sorry, by conspicuous I didn't mean flashy, though that is certainly true of some individuals! In fact, probably shouldn't have used the term generic
55 ME AVN FAN : - I don't know for what reasons you are jumping on the "terrorism" rethorics. Nobody talks about terrorism. The news are about civil unrest. - That p
56 Flighty : Truly. It would be nice if China would learn from our mistakes. Then again, we can't call them idiots for doing exactly what we did years ago. Unders
57 JJJ : Well, at certain points in time managed independence: Up to 1211, 1864-76, 1933-34, 1944-49
58 AlexEU : Yes, but unfortunately that didn't work for Yugoslavia like it did for Switzerland or India. Sure but at least they gave autonomy to Xinjiang (which
59 Post contains links Baroque : Additionally, as you well know, it also meant inserting large slabs of Jawanese culture into those island. Remember when the Dyaks did not so much li
60 ME AVN FAN : - It is not nothing, but in fact different. Autonomy is given in China usually for economic considerations, but not for political, ethnic or language
61 AlexEU : Pardon me, I wanted to say ''something I know'' instead of ''nothing''. I think that chances that Xinjiang will get independent are 0. If Taiwan, Tib
62 ME AVN FAN : - should any of these areas even try ? YOU know this question better than I do because such questions were on the agenda in your lifetime, but in Swi
63 AlexEU : I thought that is is the other way around, since Japanese are known for trying not to say ''no'' to other people. Sure, but what I tried to say it th
64 ME AVN FAN : I worked with Japanese partners for some 15 years. True, they do never say NO. They only make it clear that you are ignorant. But unlike the Chinese
65 B2443 : Hmmm no one is questioning 90% white population in the United States and Canada. Maybe in 200 years no one would about China's 100% Han. If the Uigue
66 AlexEU : Thanks for your explanation. Looks like I will be having fan, cause this month I'll be moving to a city where 50% of population is Chinese.... That i
67 Post contains links Baroque : http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/12/2623546.htm Hu being held in Shanghai detention centre No. it is Mr Hu and not Dr Who just to cut off th
68 ME AVN FAN : - Taiwan officially still claims to be THE "Republic of China" and still maintains that there in the mainland is an illegal government Switzerland ou
69 AlexEU : How can they recognize Taiwan as independent when even Taiwanese gov recognizes ''Taiwan as a province of the Republic of China''? Is there any degre
70 SW733 : Alex - you do know that the Republic of China and the People's Republic of China are two different entities, right? If the Taiwanese government (aka
71 Post contains links B2443 : From Swiss Embassy in Beijing http://www.eda.admin.ch/eda/en/home/reps/asia/vchn/bilchi.html Since the foundation of the People’s Republic Switzerl
72 SW733 : Very true. That is why there are the back-door relationships between ROC and the countries that do not recognize them. For example, there is the Taiw
73 Flighty : It meets the definition of "de facto" country much better than some real countries do. Just because people are not able to recognize it, does not mea
74 ME AVN FAN : - How ? Because there are two independent countries, both wanting to be THE China, but both independent. And Switzerland recognizes existing countrie
75 AlexEU : Yes, the Republic of China is an independent country, but Taiwan isn't. It just happens that RoC is located on the Taiwan island, but they claim the
76 Flighty : Taiwan doesn't recognize itself as anything right now. They have dropped their claim to the Mainland. Also, the Taiwan government has changed hands s
77 B2443 : Thought this was about Uighurs killing Hans in Xinjiang...now China/Taiwan? They have not, at least not according to its 'constitution'. Just like Dal
78 Flyingwaeldar : I guess that has something to do with the threat of the PRC to send troops and missiles in the direction of Taiwan if somebody utters the word "indep
79 ME AVN FAN : Well, in short, the "Republic of China" does not exist. Taiwan to claim to be China is complete madness. - - Yes, because he regarded Beijing as a ci
80 AlexEU : I have to agree with this one. One country can claim whatever they want. West Germany claimed East Germany and v.v. but they were still 2 different c
81 ME AVN FAN : - Switzerland already in 1949 recognized both Germanies, which lead to endless problems with the Bonn government. Konrad Adenauer loved Switzerland a
82 B2443 : That's not a fact. The fact is ROC government DOES exist in this world, it's an existing entity. That is not a fact. Taiwan, as a country, does NOT e
83 Flighty : Their constitution is an anachronism from another age. After reading a little bit, I am shocked that since 2008, there has been a dramatic change in
84 B2443 : That's Republic of China that's recognized by 23 countries. Not Taiwan itself. Republic of China does not equate to Taiwan. Irrelavent when it comes
85 AlexEU : True, but the Republic of China and the People's Republic of China are 2 different countries, just like the Republic of Korea and the Democratic Peop
86 ME AVN FAN : I do not regard that government as an existing entity, but the country represented by this government. But the RoC as it was before the Marshal moved
87 Post contains links AlexEU : Change the name to Taiwan - Renounce the mainland claim - apply for UN membership - call for other countries to recognize it. Here is a picture of RO
88 B2443 : The names PRC/ROC are governments (jury/representation). The territories and the government constitute a country. There's no country that is not asso
89 AlexEU : What if USA and Canada started to claim each other. Would that mean that USA and Canada are 1 country with 2 governments? Actually it was. West Germa
90 B2443 : There's no legal ground for U.S and Canada to do so. U.S and Canada have a treaty that defines the borders. This legal document is agreed upon by bot
91 Flyingwaeldar : The fondling of the communists on the mainland by Ma is also not liked by a lot of people in Taiwan, but a majority of them have voted for the KMT du
92 ME AVN FAN : - No, this is the position of the Swiss government as defined in the 1960ies by Foreign Minister Traugott Wahlen, which has been retained ever since.
93 B2443 : I don't think there's any ambiguity here when it comes to the view of the Swiss Government. Good point. These are "disputed waters/territories". Taiw
94 MD11Engineer : Back to the Han Chinese /Uighur issue: Fram what I read in the German Spiegel magazine and the BBC website the whole thing went like this: More and mo
95 ME AVN FAN : - Ever heard about Swiss diplomacy ? True, it also is amazing for people here ... -
96 B2443 : Are you suggesting it writes something down but doesn't mean it and does things that contradict to what's in the books? Thanks for discrediting your
97 ME AVN FAN : - It simply means that discussions about the topic have kept both members of parliament and hordes of experts busy in Switzerland for many decades. B
98 B2443 : What did I 'simply misunderstand' from this statement? That the Swiss government DOES recognize Republic of China (Taiwan) in a full official, diplom
99 Michlis : More likely is because like Tibet, Uygher has strategic importance to China's geopolitical future.
100 B2443 : This is what the riot organizers want the world/west to believe because the west (and its people like a.netters) responds to words like "genocide", "
101 ME AVN FAN : - Yes, it means that you do not realize that Switzerland only recognizes the P.R.C. as the country on mainland China but never recognized the PRC as
102 B2443 : Let me state the pre-conditions to establish full diplomatic relationship with PRC, in regards to Taiwan. These are that One China and only one China
103 MD11Engineer : This might well be, but what is the use of a sponsored university degree if you can´t get a qualified job afterwards. The number of jobs in governme
104 Flyingwaeldar : From the above quote I'm led to believe that you buy the official line of the PRC government that the protests (that later turned into riots) were pl
105 B2443 : My doubt in western press doesn't make me automatically buy or not buy a PRC position. Western press is not all truth and PRC press is not all propag
106 Post contains links SW733 : As per Asia Sentinel, the following countries recognize Taiwan (ROC) instead of P.R.China in 2006: Burkina Faso, El Salvador, Belize, Nauru, Palau, T
107 Post contains links ME AVN FAN : - you can see an official statement here http://www.eda.admin.ch/eda/de/home/reps/asia/vchn/bilchi/biltai.html and before you laugh out too loudly fo
108 B2443 : And it says: "Bilateral relations between Switzerland and Taiwan The island of Taiwan, located to the south-east of the Chinese mainland, is rather s
109 Post contains links ME AVN FAN : - I never said it was an embassy in a formal way, but it in fact is doing business just like an embassy. This is the difference between defacto and d
110 B2443 : That's what I was trying to point out. I never said it wasn't. That's "dafacto". But still, Taiwan/ROC is not recognized by the Swiss government, as
111 ME AVN FAN : - It was "B" before 1949, and was retained by both sides. The registry of Taiwan and the PRC are however not interconnected. That the Hongkong regist
112 Flyingwaeldar : At least the "western press" (whatever you summarize under this broad title) gives me different viewpoints on worldwide events, something you normall
113 ME AVN FAN : - A) People, for instance in Switzerland, which has taken up quite many Tibetans after 1956, there is considerable sympathy for Tibet and the Tibetan
114 Post contains links Flyingwaeldar : And the mouth-frothing of the Chinese government continues: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2009-07/28/content_8479227.htm http://www.chinadaily.co
115 ME AVN FAN : - That film directors who all three so absolutely have the same "personal opinion" as their government get out of such a film festival is good for th
116 Baroque : Chinese directors Jia Zhangke and Tang Xiaobai say they have quit the biggest film festival in Australia because of personal beliefs - not because of
117 ME AVN FAN : - Sure, their "personal opinion" gave the utmost publicity ot the Uighurs. People who either did not know anything about them or like me just had som
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