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CIA/Cheney Witheld Info On Terrorism Program!  
User currently offlineStasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3283 posts, RR: 6
Posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3193 times:

The New York Times is reporting today that "the Central Intelligence Agency withheld information about a secret counterterrorism program from Congress for eight years on direct orders from former Vice President Dick Cheney, the agency’s director, Leon E. Panetta, has told the Senate and House intelligence committees, two people with direct knowledge of the matter said Saturday."

The question of how completely the C.I.A. informed Congress about sensitive programs has been hotly disputed by Democrats and Republicans since May, when Speaker Nancy Pelosi accused the agency of failing to reveal in 2002 that it was waterboarding a terrorism suspect, a claim CIA Director Leon Panetta rejected. The law requires the president to make sure the intelligence committees “are kept fully and currently informed of the intelligence activities of the United States, including any significant anticipated intelligence activity.”

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/12/us/politics/12intel.html?_r=1&hp

Yesterday, CIA Director Panetta killed this secret program.

Source: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0709/24775.html

Cheney ordered the CIA to break the law, and he should face the legal consequences. How much did George W. know about this or was Cheney being "a loose cannon" once again???  duck   devil 


"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
173 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8571 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3188 times:

The important thing is that law enforcement officials should not be shy about bringing common thugs like Mr. Cheney to justice. Either it is okay to break all laws an kill people at will, or it is not okay. Last I checked this was all still illegal.

User currently offlinePacNWjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 980 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3179 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 1):
The important thing is that law enforcement officials should not be shy about bringing common thugs like Mr. Cheney to justice.

Why should law enforcement officials bring charges against Cheney? You have already pronounced him guilty.

I have no idea if the former vice president is a "thug" or not. I do know that throughout his career in politics, including his years in Congress as a Representative from Wyoming, Dick Cheney asserted that the Constitution grants the executive branch of the U.S. government wider powers than many other politicians and scholars agree. This is a matter of ongoing debate among politicians and constitutional scholars. The current U.S. President, Barack Obama, has appointed a large number of "czars" that have not had to be confirmed by the Senate. Many constitutional scholars would say that this is a violation of constitutional requirements for congressional advice and consent. Others would disagree. These are matters to be adjudicated with sober debate and, if need be, investigation or prosecution. Tossing around terms like "thug" doesn't really elevate the debate much.


User currently onlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16878 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3174 times:

The craziest thing about all this is that Bush left office without pardoning anyone involved in these allegations of torture (Gonzalez, Cheney, Rumsfeld etc..), Dick couldn't have been too happy about that.


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8847 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3159 times:



Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 2):
Why should law enforcement officials bring charges against Cheney? You have already pronounced him guilty.

Could have been a secret program to select the brand of coffee served at the CIA. Without knowing what this "program" was, you can't make such judgements.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineFalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6109 posts, RR: 29
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3148 times:
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Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
Cheney ordered the CIA to break the law, and he should face the legal consequences. How much did George W. know

Your guy won the election get over it. If you lefties don't get over this wanting to put everyone in jail when the right wing crowd gets back in power (and they will because no one party can stay in power for very long) they will be putting your president on trial.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 1):
common thugs like Mr. Cheney to justice

Mr. Cheney is not a common thug. He is nothing like the corner boys in Detroit.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 3):
The craziest thing about all this is that Bush left office without pardoning anyone involved in these allegations

You can't pardon people before they are convicted of a crime.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 1):
Either it is okay to break all laws an kill people at will

Who did he kill? Some worthless terrorists? People die in wars that is what happens. If the world was made up of peace loving liberals that would be great, but it isn't, strength wins. There are many people who will use deadly force to destroy peace loving fools. If it wasn't for strength the Nazis would have taken over all of Europe. Peace and love don't work in a world full of tyrants. We need people like GWB and Dick Cheney to stand up for us and not sell out just so we can be popular in the eyes of popular culture and a bunch of wimpy latte sipping 20 somethings.

The United States is at war with radical islamic facists. You people need to realize that. They don't wear a uniform and they don't represent a government. The will stop at nothing to kill the US and UK and we need to be just as brutal as they are. These people hate us and will stop at nothing to kill us. Playing nice isn't going to stop Islamofacisim. They hated us long before GWB and will hate us long after he is dead and gone.

Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
The New York Times is reporting

The NYT is just the mouthpiece for New York liberals who think they know better than everyone else.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21654 posts, RR: 55
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3137 times:



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 5):
If you lefties don't get over this wanting to put everyone in jail when the right wing crowd gets back in power (and they will because no one party can stay in power for very long) they will be putting your president on trial.

So your view is that people who break laws should be exempt from being held responsible just because they were in public office at the time?

I'm not saying that Cheney is guilty of anything, but if he is, why shouldn't he have to face up to his actions?

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 5):
The will stop at nothing to kill the US and UK and we need to be just as brutal as they are.

No, we don't.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15749 posts, RR: 27
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3130 times:



Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 2):
I have no idea if the former vice president is a "thug" or not.

Or maybe he was helping protect America from terrorists. I fully recongnize that the government takes steps to protect me that I will never know about and I have no problem with it. The government has and keeps secrets - lots of them, and we are better off not knowing.

And Congress is a big and careless place. It would have been far too easy for something to have been leaked.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 5):
Who did he kill? Some worthless terrorists? People die in wars that is what happens.

Some people love to shock the American people with the fact that fighting terrorists is a dirty business.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently onlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16878 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3127 times:



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 5):

You can't pardon people before they are convicted of a crime.

Yes you can, Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon without Nixon being convicted of anything.

"On September 8, 1974, Ford gave Nixon a full and unconditional pardon for any crimes he may have committed against the United States while President"

Note the "May Have".



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15749 posts, RR: 27
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3123 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
No, we don't.

We shouldn't be brutal, and there are some lines we shouldn't cross. But war is dirty and some people fail to recognize that.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3117 times:



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 5):

Your guy won the election get over it. If you lefties don't get over this wanting to put everyone in jail when the right wing crowd gets back in power (and they will because no one party can stay in power for very long) they will be putting your president on trial.

Depends on if he breaks a law. Looks like Cheney may have. I don't care what political party a politician is from. Breaking the law should not go unanswered. The only way to know is to have a trial. Which, ironically, is exactly what Cheney and Bush were trying to prevent their captives from having.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21654 posts, RR: 55
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3112 times:



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 2):
I have no idea if the former vice president is a "thug" or not.

Or maybe he was helping protect America from terrorists.

We have laws, and they need to be followed.

Quite a simple concept, really.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3109 times:



Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 2):
I have no idea if the former vice president is a "thug" or not.

Thug? I'm not sure. Criminal? Of that, in my opinion, I have no doubt.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Could have been a secret program to select the brand of coffee served at the CIA. Without knowing what this "program" was, you can't make such judgements.

And the apologists have arrived.....


User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6600 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3107 times:
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Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
Or maybe he was helping protect America from terrorists. I fully recongnize that the government takes steps to protect me that I will never know about and I have no problem with it.

Again, Republicans are all about keeping the Government out of their lives, but they happily allow it to listen in on the call to their mothers and allow it to dictate what goes on in their bedrooms.

Amazing huh?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineAustinAirport From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 643 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3100 times:



Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
Cheney ordered the CIA to break the law, and he should face the legal consequences. How much did George W. know about this or was Cheney being "a loose cannon" once again???      

Yes!!!! Maybe DICK.. will get thrown in prison! Oh I hate that man.

The Republican party just keeps taking hit after hit, turning even the most loyal conservatives into Dems.  Smile



Whoever said you can do anything you set your mind to has obviously never tried to slam a revolving door!!!
User currently offlineStasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3283 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3091 times:



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 5):
The NYT is just the mouthpiece for New York liberals who think they know better than everyone else.

And Fox News presents a "fair and balanced" view of political news. Pleeeeessssseeee, stick to the topic.



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineStasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3283 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3083 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
Depends on if he breaks a law. Looks like Cheney may have. I don't care what political party a politician is from. Breaking the law should not go unanswered. The only way to know is to have a trial. Which, ironically, is exactly what Cheney and Bush were trying to prevent their captives from having.

Exactly correct. In the U.S., no one is above the law. Otherwise, we might as well live in Afghanistan under the rule of the Taliban.  yes 



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineFalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6109 posts, RR: 29
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3084 times:
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Quoting Mt99 (Reply 13):
happily allow it to listen in on the call to their mothers

When those calls turn into something more sinister you would be happy they listened in. A terrorist doesn't spend all of his time on the phone talking about bombs and such. I am sure they call their mothers too

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 13):
dictate what goes on in their bedrooms.

A real Republican wouldn't care because they don't like big government. Only your religious right republican cares about what you do in your bedroom.

Quoting AustinAirport (Reply 14):
Oh I hate that man.


I know how all you liberals felt; I hate our president. He will ruin our once fine country. You all thought the same thing about the last president....



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3057 times:



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):

Or maybe he was helping protect America from terrorists.

Perhaps he was. But our laws are who and what we are. We are taught that we are a country of law and order, where people are free to choose their elected representatives, and where people have certain rights.

When the government does something that steps outside those laws, it is dangerous because it means that we are giving up those values. America doesn't kill civilians. America gives everyone a fair trial. America doesn't torture. Except we broke all three principles.

And that is far worse than allowing a terrorist attack, because that invalidates who and what we are. And it makes us no better than the terrorists.


User currently offlineYfbflyer From Canada, joined Sep 2006, 299 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3052 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 3):
The craziest thing about all this is that Bush left office without pardoning anyone involved in these allegations of torture

I thought Bush did a bunch of pre-emptive pardons about 6 months before the end of his term. If i wasn't so lazy I would look up the thread about it here.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3046 times:



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 17):

I know how all you liberals felt; I hate our president. He will ruin our once fine country. You all thought the same thing about the last president....

We were right. He ruined our fine country.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3037 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 3):
Dick couldn't have been too happy about that.

Dick wasn't happy that Scooter Libby wasn't pardoned for something that would be relatively minor compared to this. So you're probably right. "Scared" is probably more of what he's feeling.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 5):
Your guy won the election get over it.

Yes, who cares if laws were broken. Forget about it! Don't think twice about it.

Sorry, but if this guy broke the law, with something this major, he should go to trial, and, if found guilty, put in prison.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 5):
If you lefties don't get over this wanting to put everyone in jail when the right wing crowd gets back in power (and they will because no one party can stay in power for very long) they will be putting your president on trial.

Oh, you mean like you TRIED to do with the LAST Democratic president.

Fallstaff, threats like this are repugnant. It shows just how mean-spirited and vindictive the right really is. We went through this garbage for 8 1/2 years with Bill Clinton, and you want it to happen AGAIN. And, pray tell me, what would the President now go on trial for? For not governing the way you want? Because you don't like his Birth Certificate?

Grow up, and GET OVER IT yourself. If your heroes committed a crime, they should be tried for it. I think Dick Cheney broke a lot of laws while VPOTUS, and I hope he's taken to task for every one of them.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 5):
You can't pardon people before they are convicted of a crime.

Gerald Ford ring a bell? Bone up on your history before making such pronouncements.


User currently offlinePacNWjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 980 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3032 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
We have laws, and they need to be followed.

Which is why I said in my previous post:

Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 2):
These are matters to be adjudicated with sober debate and, if need be, investigation or prosecution.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 12):
Thug? I'm not sure. Criminal? Of that, in my opinion, I have no doubt.

Uh huh. So if and when Mr. Cheney is prosecuted you can recuse yourself from the jury since apparently you have already come to a conclusion without a full consideration of the evidence.


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3032 times:



Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 22):
Uh huh. So if and when Mr. Cheney is prosecuted you can recuse yourself from the jury since apparently you have already come to a conclusion without a full consideration of the evidence.

Well, since it would probably be tried somewhere relatively far from where I live, I'm not too concerned.  Yeah sure

Pretty weak comeback, dude.


User currently offlineFalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6109 posts, RR: 29
Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3024 times:
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Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 21):
It shows just how mean-spirited and vindictive the right really is

Yeah, those lefties are all about love and peace  Yeah sure They are just as mean spirited.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 21):
And, pray tell me, what would the President now go on trial for?

beats me, he has been in office for a very short amount of time. I am sure he'll do something wrong.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 21):
Because you don't like his Birth Certificate?

I don't know what that even says nobody has seen it. If he was born in the United States that is just fine. If it says that he wasn't he should be thrown out of office, but I am sure you lefties will look the other way when the consitution is violated and it keeps your man in office. You all claim to be so much better than the right and so much more enlightened, but in reality the left will do anything to be in power, exeactly like the right. The far left and the far right have a lot in common.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 21):
Gerald Ford ring a bell? Bone up on your history before making such pronouncements.

It doesn't mean anything because Nixon was never charged with anything. A pardon really only means something after a conviction. Having a conviction removed from one's record only really matters if you actually have a conviction.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
We were right. He ruined our fine country.

My life was going along just fine under GWB.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 21):
Oh, you mean like you TRIED to do with the LAST Democratic president.

That was a giant waste of time and money. I guess the fact that Bill Clinton lied under oath is ok as long as he was a democrat? I can't complain too much. I voted for Bill Clinton, back when I was young and confused about the realities of the world.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 23):
Well, since it would probably be tried somewhere relatively far from where I live, I'm not too concerned

It would be Federal and could take place anywhere.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
Breaking the law should not go unanswered.



Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
We have laws, and they need to be followed.

All these law and order people around here scare me. If a law isn't right it shouldn't be followed. I guess all you law and order liberals would be just fine with cops enforcing the segation laws of the south in the 1960s? The law was the law right? I guess we should have prosecuted all those people because they broke the law? How about all the fuss trying to overturn California's gay marraige ban? The law is the law and it should be followed all the time? Hey its the law, so you better follow it. If you don't like the law you have to fight to get it changed and sometimes you have to break the law to do the right thing. Fighting terrorists is the right thing and it is in the best interest of all citizens of this country.

All the killing in Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union was done within the laws of those countries at that time. Just because it is the law doesn't make it right.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
25 Post contains links Falcon84 : Right. That's why they spent 8 1/2 years trying to find something to oust a preisdent over. Oh? That happened when a DEMOCRAT was in office. Oh, my b
26 AustinAirport : .. He did ruin the country. LOL. Economy in shambles, retarted Foreign policy, National Security Act, I mean if this is your idea of a "fine country"
27 Falstaff : It wasn't and it wasn't worth the time and money it took to do it. Nothing came out of it anyway. The exact same thing will happen if anyone tries to
28 DocLightning : That's a scary statement. Do me a favor. My great aunt escaped from Treblinka. Don't ever preach Nazi Germa
29 Falstaff : I am not saying anything positive about Nazis, I am just saying that what they did was legal in their country at the time. I was using that to point
30 PacNWjet : O.K., try this one, dude: You have already decided that the former vice president is guilty, so why entertain arguments to the contrary? What is the
31 Falcon84 : IF their credible arguments, I will. But ask yourself this: why did he spend so much time trying to hide most of what he did behind a wall of secrecy
32 Post contains links PacNWjet : Maybe he agreed with with some congressional Democrats on the reading of the law in question (the National Security Act). Portions of The New York Ti
33 L-188 : Is this all the Times had to run with today, something that came out and was settled 4 years ago. Or are they just trying to deflect attention to the
34 Falcon84 : Stop confusing FOX News with other news sources, L-188!
35 BMI727 : Driving a car that gets less than 35 mpg is not going to blow me up in the subway. We aren't talking about throwing the whole book away. But if we ne
36 L-188 : Give me a break, Even Stanley Kubrik was making fun of them in 1963, remember this line from "Dr. Strangelove"? The russian ambassador was in the war
37 Falcon84 : Going back 46 YEARS to make a point? Good God, but you need some help! By the way, L-188, did you check out the link to factcheck.org I posted? Maybe
38 Dreadnought : The article did make clear that whatever this program was, it was not a domestic operation. Perhaps he was hiding them because you had organizations
39 Ken777 : There is no use spending money going after Cheney. There are far better uses for the money. i have no problems, however, if some of the games that wer
40 Falcon84 : I was not referring to the article, but all the stuff Cheney hid behind an Iron Curtain of secrecy for 8 years, and, as I said-and you obviously did
41 StasisLAX : "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." quoted from a book written in 1935(!!!) by Sinclair Lewis.
42 Falcon84 : How true.
43 DXing : Those two people should be arrested and charged with divulging sensitive information immediately. If the NYT reporter won't divulge his sources he sh
44 L-188 : That is exactly what Moveon.org and Acorn are doing. Thank you for agreeing it is true. And who checks Factcheck? And how much actually research did
45 Aaron747 : Considering you are decidedly partisan and Factcheck is a registered nonpartisan policy organization, I'll take their word over yours categorically.
46 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : I find this very funny. A Congress who refuses to read the bills they vote on would read anything the CIA send them... "Rep. Jan Schakowsky (D-Ill.),
47 DXing : How black is that pot? All this was to be expected. The Democratic party never stops at trying to politicize our intelligence agencies and every time
48 Seb146 : I can't say this surprises me. I can't say it surprises me the righties, all of a sudden, come out on the side of Cheney, wrapping themselves in the f
49 STT757 : Do you even read the New York Times?.. I'm a subscriber, they are the best media source we have as a Country.
50 DXing : By lying about the intelligence agencies as the Speaker did? She accused them of lying to the committee and yet since that press conference how many
51 BMI727 : But Congress can't keep a secret. I doubt that it is just the Democrats, but the fact that intelligence agencies have become at least somewhat politi
52 Post contains links Dreadnought : LOL, you really have bought into their propaganda hook, line and sinker. Let's see, How about this for starters... http://www.newsweek.com/id/202875
53 Ken777 : I don't believe that Bush was corrupt. I don't believe he was the brightest President we have had and I do believe he was too easily "guided" by Chen
54 Windy95 : They are a biased pile of dung. That is why they are going downhill losing subscribers and money. ROTFL. You have got to be kidding. It amazes me tha
55 Falcon84 : It was not an intel agency, but which president politisized the DOJ more than any President in history? With GOP browns-nosers like Gonzalez at the h
56 Seb146 : So, going back all those years over all those things Dems did, which party was in control of Congress? Which party had the power to call hearings ove
57 Windy95 : How did they politicize it? Why was Gonzalez a GOP brown noser? Is not Holder then a DNC brown noser? How so? No one even knows what the program was
58 Falcon84 : He was a brown-noser because he failed to be independent of the President. He basically sided with the president on questionable issues like torture
59 Windy95 : Is that not their job? Is that not why they are chosen for cabinet positions? That is a lame argument. Holder was chosen because he was going to be i
60 Blackbird : Windy95, Well, they did all sorts of things to try and weed out liberals, via the PATRIOT act, they fired several judges or prosecutors and replaced t
61 Windy95 : The Patriot act was not responsible for any of the above. And every president weeds out people and places in their own "yes" men. You guys act like B
62 Post contains links Baroque : Well true people do die in wars. However, wars do not excuse murder. In spite of constantly being reminded of this, you chose to forget this. http://
63 Post contains links DXing : Well I want to see the idiot Congressperson or Senator that decides to hold hearings on this. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090713/ap_on_go_ot/us_cia_c
64 Michlis : Correct. By the way, I don't see the current Adminstration/Congress rushing to repeal it either. Assumption. There is no proof that he broke any laws
65 StasisLAX : With absolutely no regard for the rule of law, most importantly
66 Windy95 : You must have missed a few post's
67 Post contains links Windy95 : Congress Authorized CIA to Develop Secret Al Qaeda Plan, Former Official Says A secret CIA program to capture or kill Al Qaeda operatives never came c
68 Post contains links StasisLAX : "Former Vice President Dick Cheney directed the CIA eight years ago not to inform Congress about a nascent counterterrorism program that CIA Director
69 Dreadnought : You mean like granting poitical power to all these unelected tsars who don't answer to Congress? At least the VP is an elected official, and his auth
70 StasisLAX : Stick to the topic, pllllleeeeaaaaaassssee! And I am not talking about Kennedy charging Johnson with "CEO" type duties of the Space Program - there w
71 Windy95 : Why because he made a point that showed how your charges are empty rhetoric. Once again read some of the other posts. Thus no need to brief anyone. T
72 Post contains links StasisLAX : "A secret Central Intelligence Agency initiative terminated by Director Leon Panetta was an attempt to carry out a 2001 presidential authorization to
73 Michlis : You're missing the point. Later reports about the program have come out, i.e. 1) Congress approved funds for the program; 2) the program was never im
74 Windy95 : " target=_blank>http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1247....html You continue to use old news and avoid newer reports. And please show me where Bush/Chen
75 StasisLAX : Complain to the Wall Street Journal for their tardy "leftist" viewpoint
76 Windy95 : please Which laws did they break? How was what happened with this particular program illegal? And my post 67 show the latest from the WSJ which shows
77 EA772LR : Why are the liberals complaining?? Who cares how the CIA/Cheney, or whoever else the left the wants to demonize, handled info? We didn't get hit again
78 Dreadnought : It's all a distraction (successful, it seems) to keep people's minds off of Nancy Pelosi's BS and the various bills they are pumping through Congress
79 Cws818 : Those with concerns about whether such handling of information was lawful.
80 Dreadnought : Nobody serious has any real concerns about this. It's looking more and more that Congress was informed as much as the law required about this abortiv
81 Cws818 : If by "serious" you mean "Republican" then you may be correct. My definition of "serious" is somewhat broader, however.
82 Okie : Unemployment near 10% maybe 15% by years end, debt to be near 2 trillion by years end, add another trillion plus a year for healthcare, trillion for
83 Dreadnought : No, just anyone with at least half a functioning brain.
84 Falcon84 : Way to offhandedly call a large segment of your countryment "stupid", Charles. I think most people can handle hearing about more than one subject at
85 L-188 : Yep, plus you have the start of their drive to destroy the heath industry in the country by the end of August, they need to put up some smoke to cove
86 Falcon84 : Of course you do. The fact that many of them also voted for Mr. Bush in '00 and '04 tells me, as usual, you're dead wrong, and most people, unlike yo
87 Dreadnought : Nothing offhand about it. The evidence speaks for itself - a very large section of the population is completely ignorant of how economies work (and d
88 Falcon84 : Now I know why I see conservatives as Elitists. It all makes sense now. People are only "smart" when they buy the conservative line, and are idiots w
89 Cws818 : I could come up with several nasty retorts to that, but I decline to go there. Suffice it to say that as a lawyer, I have serious concerns with how t
90 Cws818 : Economics is not exactly relevant to a discussion of the withholding of information re: intelligence programs and operations.[Edited 2009-07-13 21:41
91 Okie : Obvious smoke and mirrors as suggested, not to many are taking the bait. Okie
92 Post contains links Baroque : Seems a fair point and from Monday 13 July PBS has DAVID IGNATIUS: Well, that's a good question. The CIA is an executive arm of the president and ope
93 Post contains images Michlis :    While we're talking about the law, this report to Congress by the CIA Director was classified because the subject matter was classifed, yet some
94 Cws818 : Then perhaps we can agree that both could stand some improvement.
95 EA772LR : Exactly guys. Why aren't more Liberals complaining about these issues? If Bush ran up deficits as frighteningly high as Obama, Republicans would neve
96 Baroque : Sure did, 100 to 600 thousand Iraqis dead, possibly about the same number of Afghans, 2 million external Iraqi refugees, about 2 to 4 million displac
97 EA772LR : Oh ok. So you mean the same intel that Bush/Cheney had that NUMEROUS Democrats also voted for, that Putin also confirmed, was wrong? Maybe so. But if
98 Blackbird : Windy95, I am not saying that Bush invented the policy of weeding people out that he did not like, politicians have always done this -- not that it is
99 AGM100 : The CIA withheld a plan from congress ? I am sure the NYT is angry ... they could have exposed another plan ! How dare the CIA not tell congress of a
100 FlyPNS1 : After the first World Trade Center bombing, we were never hit again during the next 7+ years of Bill Clinton's tenure. You must think Clinton was a c
101 Michlis : This is getting off topic, but let's take each one of these individually: 1) politicizing the Department of Justice It's been politicized for decades
102 EA772LR : Read the book Dereliction of Duty, written by the Air Force officer who carried the 'Nuclear Football' and was very close to Clinton (he had to be).
103 Michlis : Silly isn't it.[Edited 2009-07-14 11:05:44]
104 Post contains links Baroque : Let me separate out your points. 1. Was intel bad? Certainly was, and while the GoUS and GoUK (&GOA) pushed hard to brush the objections under the ca
105 FuturePilot16 : When we get attacked, we beg for revenge. When the CIA goes for revenge, congress yells and screams saying, "you didn't tell us this you didn't tell u
106 DocLightning : I see no crosses or flags being waved at Moveon and Acorn. I see plenty of Crosses and Flags at GOP gatherings. No, you stated that following the law
107 BMI727 : You are taking his comments out of context. He stated that just because something is the law doesn't mean it is right. Aren't they? That is pretty mu
108 Falstaff : That is because we are You are not being a snob if you really are better than other people. Most people don't get that. The just look at their pay ch
109 BMI727 : To be fair to it, many of the most strident supporters of Israel in the US are Christians, not Jews.
110 Post contains links Baroque : Falstaff is fine, so the policies that saw about 2 million Iraqi refugees, officially 100 k dead Iraqis but more like more than 500 k dead Iraqis and
111 Falstaff : That is true. Especially in the case of the evangelical denominations. a government that can't trust its citizens with the means fight it cannot be t
112 Baroque : Assuming that is mean TO fight, that presents an interesting concept. Of course it is totally off-topic as well as totally off the wall. You appear n
113 EA772LR : Unfortunately you are very right! Amen to that! But wait, those of us who believe in God are ignorant right? Have you been paying attention to the ne
114 Baroque : Because you have so many guns apparently!! Please read the memo. It clearly says if you have guns you can trust the government more, by difference fr
115 Falstaff : EA772LR welcome to my RU list!
116 EA772LR : Perhaps you should read the Constitution and understand why we have the Second Amendment. To protect ourselves not just from tyranny abroad, but main
117 EA772LR : Cheers! Likewise!
118 Post contains links Baroque : Where is Falcon with his "not this shit again"?? But if you insist http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-gunownership.htm Myth: Gun ownership is not the ca
119 Michlis : One of the most useful quotes of the day.
120 Post contains links EA772LR : Who is telling who how to run their lives?? You got me there pal... And you're impressive numbers still don't explain the fact that just because I le
121 Post contains links Dreadnought : Quoting Baroque (Reply 118): Fact: Gun availability is correlated with murder; gun controls laws see the murder rate fall. I am by far not a rabid gun
122 Arrow : It fascinates me that people who believe they've made the world safe for democracy; that they invented democracy; that the US has the best democracy
123 EA772LR : Who said that? Nobody claimed we were the best, although I will arguably say that no other country in the history of civilization experienced the lev
124 Baroque : I forbore to suggest this, but to call a metastable situation a success is the worst sort of spin, short term spin. Well that put me on the flat of m
125 Michlis : This thread presupposes that a law was broken by the withholding of information. It has not been proven. What is more substantial and in my mind more
126 Dreadnought : Absolutely. In spite of Baroque might think, it appears to have been made pretty clear that this whole thing was a storm in a kettle - 1) the CIA was
127 Post contains links Baroque : All this may well be, but having as it were sensitised the Dems on a number of occasions, they are now free to express their feelings after a good fe
128 Michlis : Does that include leaking classified information to the press?
129 DXing : That punishment should go to Congress for cutting the funding that Charlie Wilson wanted to continue in the form of humanitarian aid to the Afghans a
130 Michlis : Why? They hold the purse strings and its their preogative to fund or not fund.[Edited 2009-07-16 07:50:52]
131 EA772LR : Indeed, very disturbing. Totally what's going on here. The fact that the Democrats would rather talk about what Cheney may or may not have done, than
132 DXing : And in doing so walked away from a country ravaged by war and leaving the door wide open for warlords and extremist groups like the Taliban to force
133 Michlis : But they didn't break any laws when they did so? In this case, the only "punishment" available would be meted out by the voters.
134 DXing : Correct. There are still a few leftovers from those days.
135 Baroque : If it was Congress, I agree, I must try to look out what a few other persons said about that time. Otherwise
136 Ken777 : My comparison of highly expensive private insurance not paying a major chunk of huge bills AND Medicare with private gap insurance has me very convin
137 Michlis : Back on topic. You still haven't answered my question.
138 EA772LR : Cheap shot. We ought to make them more of a priority than many of the lowlifes with their hand out always on the dole, expecting more and more tho th
139 Baroque : To the Oracle at Delphi: More detail required. Who leaked what information to which members of the press?
140 Flighty : This is true. They are more alike than they are different. They think every problem needs to be solved with overwhelming force, no matter what the co
141 EA772LR : I agree with all your points Flighty. I think the difference here, is Obama is spending money we don't have. Why isn't the media talking about that?
142 Cws818 : Since Bush oversaw the pendulum swing from surplus to deficits, you could say the same thing about him.
143 Flighty : Yeah, we don't have it in cash. But we had a nice credit line for an emergency. Now we totally used it up that credit. Just because we were unwilling
144 Michlis : Cop out. You don't want to answer the question.
145 Seb146 : All because Bush wanted to find WMDs and oust Saddam. That $3 trillion has been added to the deficit Bush already ran up and Republicans are up in ar
146 Baroque : Sorry, it is more you that does not seem to be able to phrase a defintive question. I get 234,000 answers to such a vague question. 1. Senator Dianne
147 EA772LR : I have to disagree on this one Flighty. Why people think that the same organization (see U.S. Government) is bankrupting Medicare/Medicaid/Social Sec
148 Post contains links DXing : Actually, to be fair to the definitions, as of today, democrats are acting more like facists than communists. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictiona
149 AustinAirport : Exactly, god forbid anyone be a non christian! Automatically to a Republican, that makes you a terrorist! I believe that this nation was built on the
150 DL021 : So, let me get this straight. The CIA had a program that was studying ways to kill the enemy, but hadn't set this program up active, yet. Someone aske
151 Dreadnought : You have no idea what you are talking about. Again, you have no idea what you are talking about. Republicans generally see Fascism to be essentially
152 EA772LR : Obama is much much closer to a Fascist. Look how he censors news to the media, hell he even wants a "Civilian Army"...sound familiar (see Hitler's Br
153 Arrow : This is just the kind of gross misinformation that gets spewed over and over again down there, helped by all those Conservative commentators who woul
154 Dreadnought : I would not mind if that were true. However I am pretty much convinced that our current leadership has no interest in actually finding the best solut
155 EA772LR : You're right, there isn't hope. Certainly no hope from the man in charge now. What he and his clowns are pitching to the country in essence is the sa
156 Cws818 : Multitasking is a skill - a valuable skill - that we are entitled to hold our elected representatives capable of engaging in. The fact that the major
157 Cws818 : Such a broad condemnation requires elaboration in order to realize an effective condemnation! Have you ever studied fascism in detail, in an academic
158 Dreadnought : I'm not interested in condemning you. I'm just pointing out that you are completely backwards in your thinking. Christianity is not a prerequisite fo
159 Baroque : Nodded off during JFK did we?
160 Dreadnought : I wasn't around for him. Read what I said.
161 Baroque : Not sure where you were but you must have heard about him?? Camelot not ring a bell? Or am I mistaken and JFK was off playing at being King of the Sa
162 Dtwclipper : You're kidding right? Dreadie, come up with a better argument. I have one word for you; REAGAN. I don't see it as a takeover of by the Government of
163 Post contains links DXing : Yep, the press gave him a real big pass. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRUbwnkEPqc
164 Dtwclipper : " target=_blank>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRUbw...kEPqc What did that have to do with what we were talking about? It was a very nice little clip
165 DXing : Evidently you missed the 80's and Sam Donaldson as ABC's White House correspondent. He was the absolute rudest of them all but the press certainly di
166 Dtwclipper : Can you please point out how the press is giving Obama a free ride? You guys need to return to reality, and not the made up world of Rush!
167 Dtwclipper : Oh, and this is what we were talking about. Dreadie's Cult of Personality not the press.
168 DXing : Don't have to. What the continuing episode of "All Obama All the Time" with the next installment being his prime time new conference on Wednesday nig
169 Dtwclipper : Pardon me sir, but that is not what we were discussing. Why don't you try going back rereading what was said and respond to that, or do you need it t
170 DXing : Correct, the thread title is "CIA/Cheney Witheld Info On Terrorism Program! " which you've managed to drive off a cliff since that title obviously no
171 Dtwclipper : Ok, let's try this again. I was responding to Dreadie, and you interjected a non-sequitor. I didn't drive this off the cliff....it was already there.
172 DXing : The left hates to take responsibility for anything doesn't it? But since we are already there. Who owns the majority of stock in GM? Who basically sa
173 Blackbird : DTWClipper, I think I'll need to see some good sources to confirm or refute that statement... DXing, The left or the right hate to take responsibility
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