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Health Care Overhaul Ignores Illegals...  
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1624 times:

""As Congress wrangles with overhauling the health care system, there is one population not being discussed. No proposal for a national health plan would cover the nation's estimated 11 million illegal immigrants," NPR reports. But "analysts say the notion that illegal immigrants drain the health system is overblown. Simply figuring out how many undocumented immigrants lack insurance is not easy," although the Lewin Group has estimated that the number is about 6.1 million, which is "only about half the total population of undocumented immigrants." John Sheils of the Lewin Group "says many illegal immigrants use false documents to work on the books, with regular tax deductions and benefits."

Paul Fronstin of the Employee Benefit Research Group "says illegal immigrants are younger, and so generally healthier, than the overall population, and studies show they go to the doctor far less than the native born. He estimates their total share of the health care system at about 1 or 2 percent, with only a small slice of that paid for in public money. About $1 billion a year is paid by Emergency Medicaid, a federal program that covers emergency care for patients who would otherwise be eligible for Medicaid but can't prove their legal status. Sheils estimates that an additional $5 billion is uncompensated in any way. He says that's a blip on the national health care system - some two-tenths of 1 percent - but it can hurt when it falls disproportionately on hospitals, say, along the southern U.S. border."

Carla Luggiero of the American Hospital Association "has seen more and more hospitals face the burden of caring for illegal immigrants in the past decade. Some have had to raise fees. Others qualify for extra federal subsidies if they have an especially large number of Medicare or Medicaid patients. Luggiero says this can be a way to indirectly cover part of the cost of caring for the undocumented. … Luggiero says if Congress does not include illegal immigrants in any health plan, hospitals will look for those federal payments to continue. They would also like lawmakers to revive a separate subsidy that reimbursed hospitals several hundred million dollars for care of the undocumented in recent years but has expired" (Ludden, 7/8)."


http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/157070.php

My question is, why is this even a topic to consider? When there are millions of uninsured Americans, the last group of people we should worry about covering with Health Care is illegal immigrants. I also find this disturbing: "He estimates their total share of the health care system at about 1 or 2 percent, with only a small slice of that paid for in public money. About $1 billion a year is paid by Emergency Medicaid". $1,000,000,000.00/year could be used to help our own citizens  Angry


We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMax550 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1164 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1606 times:



Quoting EA772LR (Thread starter):
My question is, why is this even a topic to consider?

I think the article is pointing out that it is not being considered.

Quoting EA772LR (Thread starter):
When there are millions of uninsured Americans, the last group of people we should worry about covering with Health Care is illegal immigrants.

That's why Congress isn't worried about it.

Quoting EA772LR (Thread starter):
$1,000,000,000.00/year could be used to help our own citizens

But that's for emergency care. The only way to avoid spending that money is by refusing illegal immigrants emergency care.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20224 posts, RR: 59
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1597 times:



Quoting Max550 (Reply 1):

But that's for emergency care. The only way to avoid spending that money is by refusing illegal immigrants emergency care.

Yup. And I'm sorry, but if you have an ice pick sticking out your back, I'm getting to work and I'm not asking for your papers first.

Step 1) get the ice pick out of the patient's back without collapsing his lungs or perforating some important structure like a heart or a great vessel. Step 2) sort out the patient's citizenship.

(I only bring up this example because I have had to deal with an ice pick stuck in an illegal immigrant).


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21798 posts, RR: 55
Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1597 times:



Quoting EA772LR (Thread starter):
My question is, why is this even a topic to consider?

Because they are, like it or not, a part of the economy. And it hurts hospitals when they have to cover the costs of taking care of them. I'm not of the mindset that they should get free healthcare, and I'm glad that Congress isn't going further with the idea, but I see nothing wrong with considering the question of whether giving them healthcare will save money for everyone else in the long run.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1594 times:



Quoting Max550 (Reply 1):
That's why Congress isn't worried about it.

Perhaps I spoke too soon. This is appalling:

" On Friday, Democrats moved one step closer to giving free health insurance to the nation’s estimated 12 million illegal aliens when they successfully defeated a Republican-backed amendment, offered by Rep. Dean Heller, R-Nev., that would have prevented illegal aliens from receiving government-subsidized health care under the proposed plan backed by House Democrats and President Barack Obama.

The House Ways and Means Committee nixed the Heller amendment by a 26-to-15 vote along straight party lines, and followed this action by passing the 1,018-page bill early Friday morning by a 23-to-18 margin, with three Democrats voting against the plan.

The Democratic plan will embrace Obama’s vision of bringing free government medical care to more than 45 million uninsured people in America – a significant portion of whom are illegal aliens.

According to the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, costs under the Obama plan being proposed by the House will saddle citizens with $1.04 trillion in new federal outlays over the next decade."


Quoting Max550 (Reply 1):
But that's for emergency care. The only way to avoid spending that money is by refusing illegal immigrants emergency care.

That's right. We have no obligation or 'moral right' to take care of those who are not legally here, while at the same time not taking care of our own citizens.



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineMax550 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1164 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1582 times:



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 4):

Perhaps I spoke too soon. This is appalling:

Do you have a source for that? I can't find it. I'd like to read the amendment that was removed before drawing any conclusions.
I did find the article you are quoting, I think from Newsmax or something. They don't provide any way to actually read the amendment or any reasoning as to why the Democrats removed it.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 4):

That's right. We have no obligation or 'moral right' to take care of those who are not legally here, while at the same time not taking care of our own citizens.

Emergency care has nothing to do with this, we already provide emergency care and that would continue with or without this amendment.


User currently offlineAerobalance From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 4683 posts, RR: 46
Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1576 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
(I only bring up this example because I have had to deal with an ice pick stuck in an illegal immigrant).

How did it get there?

If they are hardworking immigrants looking for a better life then yes, they should be accepted. However, if they're trouble-making gang-bangers they should not get any medical care.



"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21798 posts, RR: 55
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1574 times:



Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 6):
f they are hardworking immigrants looking for a better life then yes, they should be accepted. However, if they're trouble-making gang-bangers they should not get any medical care.

Is there really time to do the research it would require to determine that when a guy has an ice pick sticking out of him?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineMax550 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1164 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1572 times:



Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 6):
If they are hardworking immigrants looking for a better life then yes, they should be accepted. However, if they're trouble-making gang-bangers they should not get any medical care.

And it should be up to the doctor at the hospital to decide whether the person dying in front of them deserves treatment? Or do we leave it up to the ambulance crews? If they feel the person isn't hardworking enough they leave them where they are? What if it's a citizen who doesn't have documentation on them at the time they are stabbed? Do you wait for them to go get documentation before taking them into the hospital?


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20224 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1561 times:



Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 6):

How did it get there?

If they are hardworking immigrants looking for a better life then yes, they should be accepted. However, if they're trouble-making gang-bangers they should not get any medical care.

He said he got attacked. Happens to them all the time.

And when someone comes in (still walking, amazingly enough) with an ice pick in his back, I am not going to ask whether he's a hardworking illegal or a trouble-making gang-banger. I'm going to deal with the FOD in his back because that's my job (and my sworn duty), no matter what some politician says.


User currently offlineAndz From South Africa, joined Feb 2004, 8461 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1557 times:
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Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
I'm sorry, but if you have an ice pick sticking out your back, I'm getting to work and I'm not asking for your papers first.

Good for you. In this country you will die if you can't provide proof of medical cover unless you go to a state hospital, in which case you might die anyway.



After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
User currently offlineAerobalance From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 4683 posts, RR: 46
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1557 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
Is there really time to do the research it would require to determine that when a guy has an ice pick sticking out of him?



Quoting Max550 (Reply 8):
What if it's a citizen who doesn't have documentation on them at the time they are stabbed? Do you wait for them to go get documentation before taking them into the hospital?

Sounds like a system needs to be setup so these oversights can't happen. Maybe you two should help develop one...



"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21798 posts, RR: 55
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1546 times:



Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 11):
Sounds like a system needs to be setup so these oversights can't happen. Maybe you two should help develop one...

I'd rather let the doctors perform their required duties.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAerobalance From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 4683 posts, RR: 46
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1525 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 9):
He said he got attacked. Happens to them all the time.

Attacked by who? A fellow immigrant?
I applaud you for helping your fellow man.

Yes I am speaking of Mexican or Central/South American immigrants who come into the country illegally. My mother is from Mexico, came into the U.S. legally and is now a US citizen. It's the immigrants who use the system to their benefit without going through the proper procedures to be recognized legally that present a problem to themselves in being recognized by Federal and State authorities - this also becomes a problem for the U.S. and State taxpayers, does it not? Yes, these immigrants have a fear of deportation and come into the country in desperation, yet that's no excuse to finally step up to the plate and become a documented alien. Or is it?

Even though it was many years ago that my mother went through the proper channels of being recognized in the U.S. before coming to this country, she understands why people are driven to look for a better life here. Is it a sacrifice of time to do the correct work to get into this country legally? Yes. Was she facing times of desperation to enter the U.S., No. She just chose to live here and did things correctly to be here. Is it correct for a gang-banger to illegally enter just to take out rival gang members in our city streets for his home group in Jalisco, Nicaragua, Columbia etc. causing our tax-dollar supported manpower to cleanup the mess? What's your answer?

Is there a difference between my mother, who did things correctly to be in this country, or a gang-banger who does the opposite of what is correct and good to be in the U.S. and receive the benefits of being in this country? What's your answer?

Are the people who criticized my previous post saying there is no difference between any immigrant? Having a blood relative do things correctly to be here does skew my perspective but it allows that relative to be here free and clear, pay her taxes, enjoy her life and contribute greatly to her profession in the healthcare industry.

Sure, there may be the sanctity of life on a basic human level for emergency healthcare, but then what? What happens afterwords? That's my next question. Can there be a system setup so the U.S or it's States not be bled dry by immigrants who abuse the current system?

Or am I going get responses from other forum members who'll slam me for my opinion yet offer no input.



"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
User currently offlineAerobalance From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 4683 posts, RR: 46
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1523 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 12):
I'd rather let the doctors perform their required duties.

-Mir

Then what, that's it? What do you with the patients after treatment when you know they are here illegally?



"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6647 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1512 times:
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Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 13):
Is there a difference between my mother, who did things correctly to be in this country, or a gang-banger who does the opposite of what is correct and good to be in the U.S. and receive the benefits of being in this country? What's your answer?

Yes. and you have mentioned it before:

Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 13):
it was many years ago that my mother went through the proper channels

The problem is that these channels are no longer appropriate for this day and age. Thats what immigration reform should do - match up policy with the realities of today, not the realities from 20 or 30 years ago.



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1507 times:



Quoting Max550 (Reply 5):
Do you have a source for that? I can't find it. I'd like to read the amendment that was removed before drawing any conclusions.
I did find the article you are quoting, I think from Newsmax or something. They don't provide any way to actually read the amendment or any reasoning as to why the Democrats removed it.

You are correct, sorry I forgot to post the link. I'm also trying to find the amendment that the Democrats reversed. Here is the link:

http://www.newsmax.com/headlines/hea..._care_obama/2009/07/19/237484.html

Quoting Max550 (Reply 5):
Emergency care has nothing to do with this, we already provide emergency care and that would continue with or without this amendment.

Ok well this idea that 'we'll take care of you now and worry about who pays later' is nonsense. The reason California has had so many hospital bankruptcies is because of unpaid medical bills, largely as a result of illegal immigrants. Why am I held responsible to pay back health care for someone who isn't even here legally, or for that matter, all the U.S. citizens who aren't working to have health care as good as mine. I pay a premium for mine, so I deserve to have better health care than someone not paying into the system.



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1505 times:



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 15):
The problem is that these channels are no longer appropriate for this day and age. Thats what immigration reform should do - match up policy with the realities of today, not the realities from 20 or 30 years ago.

 Wow! What? So you don't think that the same rules that applied to immigration 20-30 years ago apply today? Why should they be different? What a slap in the face to all the legal immigrants here.



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineAerobalance From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 4683 posts, RR: 46
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1505 times:



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 15):
The problem is that these channels are no longer appropriate for this day and age. Thats what immigration reform should do - match up policy with the realities of today, not the realities from 20 or 30 years ago.

I have four cousins who have legally immigrated here from Mexico to the U.S. in the past 1-7 years. It seemed to work fine for them...



"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21798 posts, RR: 55
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1495 times:



Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 14):
What do you with the patients after treatment when you know they are here illegally?

Hand them over to the authorities, and if they want to start deportation proceedings, so be it.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineMax550 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1164 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1487 times:



Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 13):
Is it correct for a gang-banger to illegally enter just to take out rival gang members in our city streets for his home group in Jalisco, Nicaragua, Columbia etc. causing our tax-dollar supported manpower to cleanup the mess? What's your answer?

Of course not, but is it correct for us to leave that person to die on the street because they aren't here legally?

Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 13):
Are the people who criticized my previous post saying there is no difference between any immigrant?

Only when talking about emergency medical care.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 16):
Why am I held responsible to pay back health care for someone who isn't even here legally, or for that matter, all the U.S. citizens who aren't working to have health care as good as mine. I pay a premium for mine, so I deserve to have better health care than someone not paying into the system.

Are we still talking about emergency care or all health care in general?
If you're talking about emergency care, you are responsible for paying for people who can't afford it because this country provides emergency care for anyone who needs it.
If you're talking about other health care, you do get better health care than people who are not paying into the system because they only receive emergency care.
You have made a good case for why we should have universal coverage though, if everyone paid into it then you wouldn't be paying more for the people who choose not to have health coverage.


User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6647 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1466 times:
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Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 18):
I have four cousins who have legally immigrated here from Mexico to the U.S. in the past 1-7 years. It seemed to work fine for them...

It also worked for several people I know. It also did not work for others. But you are preaching to the choir here, the US has every right to admit or reject whomever it deems that should be allowed.

So from that standpoint, the questions that should asked are, is the process fair? is it efficient in processing the requests? are laws enforced?

How long did it take though? which brings me to my next point:

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 17):

Wow! What? So you don't think that the same rules that applied to immigration 20-30 years ago apply today? Why should they be different? What a slap in the face to all the legal immigrants here.

Rules? who said rules? i was talking more about expediting processes. Why wait 15 years for an application to go thru the system? just start running and you can be across the border in a few days

How long did Ricky Ricardo had to wait to come into the United States?

The realities driving immigration processes in the 50's and 60's were vastly different from realities are today.



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1454 times:



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 21):
Rules? who said rules? i was talking more about expediting processes. Why wait 15 years for an application to go thru the system? just start running and you can be across the border in a few days

 rotfl  That's funny, but sadly and sickeningly that is true. Maybe I should go to Mexico, change my name to Jose, cross the Rio Grande...I get free health care, access to social security, and I can default on my mortgage, the government and American citizens will just bail me out. Maybe I'm on to something  Yeah sure

Quoting Max550 (Reply 20):
You have made a good case for why we should have universal coverage though, if everyone paid into it then you wouldn't be paying more for the people who choose not to have health coverage.

Not quite. This needs to be addressed. What Obama and his clowns are pitching to the country in essence is that we will have the same level of health care to 45 million more Americans (12 million illegal immigrants on top) without adding any more doctors to the ~800,000 we have now, and at the same time lower costs from what they are now. Is he freaking out of his mind? Any person with half a brain can find the fault in those numbers. You cannot provide better health care or equal health care to 45,000,000 more people, keep costs the same, and not add an order of magnitude more doctors the way Obama claims. What will happen is a dramatic drop in health care for those of us who have it now. Like everything Obama believes in, this is just more of the same liberal pipe dream nonsense. It won't pass thank God.



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1452 times:



Quoting EA772LR (Thread starter):
Health Care Overhaul Ignores Illegals...

Good!  bouncy  This was never set up for the illegal immigrants to begin with anyway!

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 4):
" On Friday, Democrats moved one step closer to giving free health insurance to the nation’s estimated 12 million illegal aliens when they successfully defeated a Republican-backed amendment, offered by Rep. Dean Heller, R-Nev., that would have prevented illegal aliens from receiving government-subsidized health care under the proposed plan backed by House Democrats and President Barack Obama...."

 banghead  Oh, god...Please...no. If they get it free, how come WE, U.S. citizens, have to pay?!



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9262 posts, RR: 21
Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1415 times:



Quoting EA772LR (Thread starter):
My question is, why is this even a topic to consider? When there are millions of uninsured Americans, the last group of people we should worry about covering with Health Care is illegal immigrants. I also find this disturbing: "He estimates their total share of the health care system at about 1 or 2 percent, with only a small slice of that paid for in public money. About $1 billion a year is paid by Emergency Medicaid". $1,000,000,000.00/year could be used to help our own citizens



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 4):
Perhaps I spoke too soon. This is appalling:

" On Friday, Democrats moved one step closer to giving free health insurance to the nation’s estimated 12 million illegal aliens when they successfully defeated a Republican-backed amendment, offered by Rep. Dean Heller, R-Nev., that would have prevented illegal aliens from receiving government-subsidized health care under the proposed plan backed by House Democrats and President Barack Obama



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 23):

My sentiments exactly! In fact it should be a hint to illegal immigrants staying here that, "hey, your free ride here is over. Sorry, but you are asked to leave. You pay no taxes and contribute almost nothing to this economy except for essentially having legal citizens of this country to pay an arm and a leg each year in taxes so that you can live here essentially for free...

Not anymore! Good bye!"

EA772LR, I would also like to see a source. I do not trust the Democrats at all anymore now that the whole party is infested with these certifiable nut cases who pull stunts like this, but it would be nice if you could back that up.  Smile



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
25 Yellowstone : Trouble is, if you came in illegally, there's no way to become legal except to sneak back across the border and return to your old poverty-stricken l
26 AirframeAS : I disagree. Those positions can still be filled no matter what. Some high school kids would take those in a heartbeat.
27 Yellowstone : Perhaps (though not so much for the agricultural jobs), but the point remains that illegal immigrants do make significant contributions to local econ
28 AirframeAS : Barely.... less than 1% per person, I assume.[Edited 2009-07-20 20:08:42]
29 Flighty : Sure, but that doesn't mean it's ok. It's illegal to employ them. Identity theft is rampant. I am pro-immigrant but that does not mean I support ille
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