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Is The GOP Interested In Fixing Healthcare At All?  
User currently offlineStasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3286 posts, RR: 6
Posted (5 years 4 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 8263 times:

""If we are able to stop Obama on this, it will be his Waterloo. It will break him," Senator Jim DeMint, a South Carolina Republican, told conservative activists. Obama seized on DeMint's remarks as evidence the GOP's opposition is based less on disputes of the specifics of health reform but more on politics.

"This isn't about me," Obama said. "We can't afford the politics of delay and defeat when it comes to health care. Not this time, not now."

Source: http://www2.canada.com/topics/news/story.html?id=1809667

Why hasn't anybody from the American press ever asked ANY member of the U.S. Congress how much there Health insurance costs them each month and how much Healthcate lobbyists have contributed to their election campaigns? I sincerely think that if the American public knew, the U.S. Capital would be in flames and the second American revolution would be in the streets....


"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
510 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8971 posts, RR: 39
Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 8257 times:



Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
and how much Healthcate lobbyists have contributed to their election campaigns?

Health Professionals:
http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.php?ind=H01

Pharma:
http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.php?ind=H04

Health: Long-Term Contribution Trends:
http://www.opensecrets.org/industrie...t2.x=11&goButt2.y=3&goButt2=Submit

Lately it seems to dominate the Dem party but over the last 20-years or so it varies. It seems to depend on who controls congress (hardly surprising).



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8913 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 8252 times:



Quoting StasisLAX (Thread starter):
Why hasn't anybody from the American press ever asked ANY member of the U.S. Congress how much there Health insurance costs them each month and how much Healthcate lobbyists have contributed to their election campaigns? I sincerely think that if the American public knew, the U.S. Capital would be in flames and the second American revolution would be in the streets....

The critical point right now is to kill the "Public Option". If that were off the table, there are large numbers of Republicans who would love to adopt meaningful reform - There are a few good points in the current bill that can be built on. We can simplify but at the same time strengthen regulations to make universal health care a reality while still keeping government bureacrats out it. As I've said here for years (and recently I heard Bill O'Reilly promote it recently as well) the Swiss model is one we can look carefully at for an example of a successful Universal Health Care policy that is 100% private.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29813 posts, RR: 58
Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 8217 times:

The current plans are expensive disasters waiting to happen.

The republicans are only working to preserve one of the best health-care systems in the world.

I wish them the best in their efforts.

The democrats are rushing to get a plan in before the election cycle, and are rushing. Those of you who think that they are on the right path really need to be careful of what you wish for.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6694 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 8216 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
We can simplify but at the same time strengthen regulations to make universal health care a reality while still keeping government bureacrats out it.

You do realize that in the Swiss system government sets price controls on everything.


User currently offlineCanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2843 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 8205 times:



Quoting L-188 (Reply 3):
The republicans are only working to preserve one of the best health-care systems in t

My wife is a nurse in the US. There are many dozens of Canadian, Australian, English and New Zealand born health care professionals working in her hospital. Why? Because the US health care system pays the best and get some of the best health care professionals in the world. We frequently compare the Obama system to Canada. My grandmother lived in Canada for 20 years and I worked there. If you have a very simple problem it probably is better than the US system. You won't get seen as fast, but, say you have a complex problem, economics will decide when, where and who you see and how you are treated.

I live on the border, many of my friends are Canadian, some have told me that it takes months or years just to get a family physician if you don't already have one. If you need a procedure, x-ray, ultrasound, Cat Scan in the US you get it, yesterday. That just isn't the case in Canada. Not long ago a family from Toronto had to ship their newborn to Buffalo because all the Neonatal Intensive Care Unit beds in...well all of eastern Canada were full.

Why do nurses in Vancouver and Vancouver Is. go on strike? They do because they don't get paid enough, or the gov't health care system wants to subsitute RN's for LPNs. Don't believe me? The BC health care system is rediculously underfunded, do a google search and you'll see they are many millions in the red.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26013 posts, RR: 50
Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 8188 times:

Don't worry as enough Democrats see how much of a turd these ideas are they can defeat it without Republican help.

Having lived for well over a decade in European nations, I would never trade the US system for the 'European model' a single day. I like to be in charge of my own care, and not rely on the government to decide the who, when and what care one receives.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineDXing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8185 times:

The public option is just a disaster and fortunately several democrats feel that way. The GOP wants to fix the system, not tear it down and rebuild it with something that is irreversible as is Obamacare. Why won't President Obama talk about tort reform? Tear down rules that prohibit insurance companies from crossing state lines. Why not work on the 15% that don't have health insurance instead of forcing the 85% who do to change? How about working out a bill that is open and transparent before voting on it. As has been the news today, Medicare/Medicaid took a year and a half to work out. It's still been a disaster financially but at least they gave it some thought unlike what the President, Pelosi, and Reid are foisting on an suspicious public.

User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8419 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 5 days ago) and read 8138 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
The critical point right now is to kill the "Public Option".

I'm on Medicare (and VA Health) and find it just as good as when I was paying massive amounts of money to private companies.

I've had CT scans, a heart cath and recently a gallbladder removed. Not once did I pull out the wallet.

If private insurance is so much better than public insurance why does Medicare Advantage (rub by private insurance companies) cost so much more per person than the government program? they follow the same rules for care, but private insurance costs a lot more. Why?

Quoting L-188 (Reply 3):
The republicans are only working to preserve one of the best health-care systems in the world.

The Republicans are working to preserve the most expensive health care system in the world.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 3):
The democrats are rushing to get a plan in before the election cycle, and are rushing.

Actually the Obama team got a quick start AFTER the last election. The one they won. McCain said it best - elections have consequences. The last election might just mean that the current medical rip off is about to be straightened up a bit.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 3):
Those of you who think that they are on the right path really need to be careful of what you wish for.

I've already got government care and my worst nightmare is to be thrown back into the over-priced world of private insurance rip offs.

Quoting Canoecarrier (Reply 5):
We frequently compare the Obama system to Canada. My grandmother lived in Canada for 20 years and I worked there.

And we lived in Australia for 8 years and had medical care that was as good as the US.

My wife is a physical therapist who has worked in both countries' medical systems. The basic truth is that the quality of care you get is based on how good your medical professionals are. Get a great doc, your chances are better. Same with nurses, therapists, etc. It's the skill of the professionals treating you more than the payment system.

Looking at it that way, why pay twice as much?

Who only look at Canada and the UK when looking at different payment systems? Why not look at them all (including Australia) and then work out what is right for this country?


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26013 posts, RR: 50
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8113 times:



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 8):
they follow the same rules for care, but private insurance costs a lot more. Why?

Very simple.

Because private insurance is a for profit business. They must recoup fees to cover their cost at the very least.

Government care does not care about such as its cost recovery is provided by the check books of all American tax payers.

I'd rather be beholden and responsible for my own cares cost, then have to supplement the entire nation in expanded government plans with added taxes.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineDXing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8099 times:



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 8):
If private insurance is so much better than public insurance why does Medicare Advantage (rub by private insurance companies) cost so much more per person than the government program? they follow the same rules for care, but private insurance costs a lot more. Why?

In part because your medicare only pays 60-70 cents on the dollar and disallows some charges. Those in turn are passed on to private insurance companies in the form of higher fees for everything. Or do you really think a bandaid costs $2.00? Then drop in all the tests that are performed so if the patient turns around and sues the doctor, and his insurance company, can show where even though it wasn't necessary they tested for it. That also jacks up the cost. Yet in all this 1000 pages of gooblygook no mention is made of tort reform or government paying dollar for dollar for the services it insures.


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8419 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 8088 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
I'd rather be beholden and responsible for my own cares cost, then have to supplement the entire nation in expanded government plans with added taxes.

If you want to only pay for your health care costs then you need to go without insurance. Then be ready to find a whopper of a bill if you hit a major medical problem. Say an uninsured drunk driver runs into you and you're faced with adjusting to life as a para.

If you have health insurance you are already paying a socialized medicine tax in your monthly premiums.

Quoting DXing (Reply 10):
Yet in all this 1000 pages of gooblygook no mention is made of tort reform or government paying dollar for dollar for the services it insures.

Tort reform will not reduce medical costs as much as you think. They have it in Texas, where my sister lived. Insurance cost a fortune there also - about the same as Oklahoma. And if someone really screws up it is far harder, but still possible, to take them to court.

My sister died after surgery because of a dumb nurse. Expensive private insurance, expensive private hospital, good surgeon. Very high level of general anesthetic for the surgery and a nurse that refused to let her have her cpap after returning to her room. Cause of death was lack of oxygen to the brain.

The need for tort action (which will not benefit me financially) is based on the need to punish those (the hospital and nurse) who killed her as well as ensuring that other hospitals see the problem and take action to avoid it themselves. this last reason - setting a clear example - can easily save a handful from dying for the same FUBAR, and might save more than that.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8913 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 8081 times:



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 11):
If you want to only pay for your health care costs then you need to go without insurance. Then be ready to find a whopper of a bill if you hit a major medical problem. Say an uninsured drunk driver runs into you and you're faced with adjusting to life as a para.

If you have health insurance you are already paying a socialized medicine tax in your monthly premiums.

Complete distortion. "Socialized" would imply redistribution according to one's ability to afford it. If insurance companies charged $25 to a poor person and $2000 to a rich person, for example (and what you have with state run health care). But if everyone is paying their fair share, that's just risk distribution.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineVonRichtofen From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 4634 posts, RR: 36
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 8070 times:

How do the uninsured in the US get prevetantive care?

ie: regular physicals etc.



Word
User currently offlineLH459 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 886 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 8060 times:



Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 13):
How do the uninsured in the US get prevetantive care?

Generally, they don't.



"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is temporary; the evil it does is permanent" - Ghandi
User currently offlineDXing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 8054 times:



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 11):
Tort reform will not reduce medical costs as much as you think.

So at what level would it make sense? BTW, I'd like to know when the President says that his plan will eliminate uneeded tests, which he says are a waste of resources and add to cost, how you can say with certainty that medical costs will not be reduced. I have no definitive amount but any amount would seem to make sense.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 11):
The need for tort action (which will not benefit me financially) is based on the need to punish

???? It's supposed to be based on correcting a wrong. The punishment phase is where the worst of the abuse is since that is where a lawyer makes his money. If you have doctors ordering CYA tests how can you say that helping to eliminate them will not reduce cost? Those do not show up in any courtroom if no suit is filed yet they are still ordered and have to be paid for.


User currently offlineMax550 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 8043 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
As I've said here for years (and recently I heard Bill O'Reilly promote it recently as well) the Swiss model is one we can look carefully at for an example of a successful Universal Health Care policy that is 100% private.

The Swiss model definitely works better than out current system, but it's not as wonderful as people make it out to be. As a percentage of GDP spent on healthcare, Switzerland is the second highest behind the US. Costs have continued to rise about 5% per year, which is the same problem we have here. They have lots of price controls as well, which Republicans seem to be against.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
Complete distortion. "Socialized" would imply redistribution according to one's ability to afford it. If insurance companies charged $25 to a poor person and $2000 to a rich person, for example (and what you have with state run health care). But if everyone is paying their fair share, that's just risk distribution.

So taking the Swiss system as an example, the maximum you pay is 10% of your income, so it's socialist, correct?


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8913 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 8033 times:

Quoting Max550 (Reply 16):
The Swiss model definitely works better than out current system, but it's not as wonderful as people make it out to be. As a percentage of GDP spent on healthcare, Switzerland is the second highest behind the US. Costs have continued to rise about 5% per year, which is the same problem we have here. They have lots of price controls as well, which Republicans seem to be against.

It's not perfect, but it works, covers everyone and is 100% private, and competition thrives between the 70 or so insurance companies, which is the goal. Can it be improved upon? Yes. But I don't think the Democrats are willing to even look at it because it would not allow them to push through government health care, which I feel is their goal.

Quoting Max550 (Reply 16):
So taking the Swiss system as an example, the maximum you pay is 10% of your income, so it's socialist, correct?

Mildly. The cap is meant to help those at the very bottom 10% or so of society - which is fine. My issue is you make the entire system on a sliding scale, with some paying $100 and others paying $1000, where evryone is paying a skewed amount. Everyone should pay similar amounts except for the bottom 10% or so.

[Edited 2009-07-22 15:01:01]


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8419 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 8031 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
Complete distortion.

Not really.

Let's say a cost of a device or treatment is $100.00 to the patient. But the hospital bumps that up to $120 in order to cover those that don't have insurance and can't pay. Then the insurance company pays on the $120 fee, less their discount. But, hey, they are in it for the profit so they move it up to $125 or $130 when it comes to calculating the increases in your monthly premiums.

You've just been phucked if you have private insurance.

You can call it what you want, but I call anything over that $100 a hidden socialized tax - and one with a nice plump profit margin added.

Personally I would prefer a system where you and I paid a percentage of your income for core coverage. In Australia it is about 2% and there is a pretty good system in place with that funding.

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 13):
How do the uninsured in the US get prevetantive care?

ie: regular physicals etc.

We jsut turn our backs on them and hopefully they will die and not cost too much money - especially if they are a vet.

Quoting DXing (Reply 15):
???? It's supposed to be based on correcting a wrong.

When a bad nurse and a bad doc kill someone you can't correct the wrong. While the insurance companies prefer to hand out some token cash and hide the problem under the rug that will not help those that follow.

Punish them publicly and with vigor and hospitals will take notice and try to ensure they do not duplicate the problem. It is sort of like the auditing industry where a lot of standards were set because of scandals. In this case you might actually be the one that benefits long term.

Quoting DXing (Reply 15):
If you have doctors ordering CYA tests how can you say that helping to eliminate them will not reduce cost?

It's not the additional tests that concern me - it is the increases in costs to cover those that don't pay that I look at. Cut that out with universal care and then the government can rightly lay down the law that those increases are illegal.

There is a lot of testing based on protocols. One is a range of standard blood tests if you go to the ER. That is where the doctors caught my wife's acute leukemia (ALL) - a basic blood test. I would love to see the A1c blood test added as a standard test - a lot of overweight (and some thin) folks would get the word that they are a diabetic.

Actually. with the overweight kids we have these days a mandatory A1c at the start of the school year for kids in the even grades (2nd, 4th, 6th . . . . 12th Grades) would probably go a long way in improving the health of kids these days.

Maybe add in a requirement that an entire family has to be tested if one person in the family has diabetes. Might save on amputations, blindness and treating kidney failure over the years.

So don't worry about over testing. Worry about intelligent testing for improving care at the individual and public levels.


User currently offlineMax550 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 8025 times:



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
It's not perfect, but it works, covers everyone and is 100% private, and competition thrives between the 70 or so insurance companies, which is the goal. Can it be improved upon? Yes. But I don't think the Democrats are willing to even look at it because it would not allow them to push through government health care, which I feel is their goal.

Then why is their plan almost the same? The only big difference is that a public plan would be offered as well. That would help keep costs down and hopefully reduce the rate of inflation in healthcare. The biggest issue I have with the Swiss system is that they have the same problems we do with costs rising much faster than inflation.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8913 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 8027 times:



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 18):
We jsut turn our backs on them and hopefully they will die and not cost too much money - especially if they are a vet.

I would suggest deleting this while you can still edit. It is flamebait.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26013 posts, RR: 50
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 8018 times:



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 11):
If you have health insurance you are already paying a socialized medicine tax in your monthly premiums.

With private insurance I am in a much smaller pool, not with everyone in America. My rates are based on my own risk analysis, again not that of everyone else in America, while I very much have smorgasbord plan options which I can select to as I desire.

Government mandated programs (and certainly ones I have experienced in Europe) remove much of the choice I have over my own care. Now someone else decides basically when, how and what care I might or might not be entitled to, instead of me making those decisions and funding them at my prerogative.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineTSAORD From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 8013 times:

If the GOP had the ideas to put things in place they would have done them over the almost eight years they had control of Congress. Now that they are out of control they only know how to bark and be the "loyal opposition." The most antidiverse party had no one to back them up now they want to act all all and mighty and "claim they are for the people". Naming a token black man to the head of the party won't bring in African Americans by a long short. Where was all this talk four years ago!

User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8913 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 8013 times:



Quoting Max550 (Reply 19):
Then why is their plan almost the same? The only big difference is that a public plan would be offered as well. That would help keep costs down and hopefully reduce the rate of inflation in healthcare.

The public plan is the killer for me. Since when has the government been able to lower the cost of anything? In addition the public "option" will have the effect of crowding out private insurance - it is designed to do that by our congress, who have mandated that Private insurers can only offer deluxe, all-inclusive policies (of course at very high cost). So if I want a simple policy that only covers catastrophic illness or hospitalization expenses, and I pay for everything else myself, that option is no longer available to me.

If Congress dumped the public option, I could support this bill. Otherwise, forget it.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8220 posts, RR: 26
Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 8006 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 21):
Government mandated programs (and certainly ones I have experienced in Europe) remove much of the choice I have over my own care. Now someone else decides basically when, how and what care I might or might not be entitled to, instead of me making those decisions and funding them at my prerogative.

Nonsense - while covered under the Japanese NHS scheme, I can see any doctor in the country I want to - whether the clinic or hospital is public or private. No matter where I go, the government will pick up 70% of the tab and I pay 30% (my employer and I pay a 50-50 monthly premium of around $280). Nobody tells me where I can and can't go - it's a function of how far I'm willing to go for the level of care I think I need or am otherwise referred to. I love that the entire thing is so hands-off.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
25 Steeler83 : Same here, my thoughts exactly. The thing I am worried about is if such a plan is put in place that my taxes will go through the ceiling and beyond,
26 DXing : With that idea you are helping to increase costs and unneccesary testing. This is just bunk. Hospitals are required by law to treat you regardless of
27 Ken777 : It's not designed to be flame bait. It recognized that those without funds don't get testing at the same level as those with money. Like lower income
28 LAXintl : Yes in Europe, I could indeed go to pretty much see anyone for my primary care. Sometimes with a wait sometimes not. Here with private insurance, I h
29 Aaron747 : Within the last year I needed to see both cardiopulmonary and psychosomatic specialists - referrals were quick and I was given prompt appointments -
30 Ken777 : Sorry, but I don't think so. If that was the case then medical care in Texas would be far cheaper than in, say, Oklahoma. I think you'll find that Te
31 Aaron747 : The first heart transplant was done in South Africa as well. But ask doctors around the world and they'll still tell you the chance to take up resear
32 Max550 : If that's the case then why does Medicare have lower overhead costs than the average health insurance company? The public option won't be subsidized
33 StasisLAX : Just like when Republican President Richard M. Nixon signed off on wage and price controls here in the United States in the early 1970s to combate "s
34 Post contains links DXing : Have you looked at the population difference between OK and TX? There are 19+ million in TX and 3+ mil in OK. That doesn't even begin to get into wha
35 LAXintl : Its not a single experience. It was 10-years worth of living, and enough to realize how much more I prefer the current US system. I truly cringe when
36 Ken777 : Of course there are, but some innovative breakthroughs come from individuals or small groups. I keep looking at the doctors in Australia as a great e
37 LAXintl : I really don't see how you blame this on the form if insurance, instead of the insured party. There are all types of policies, from minimal coverage
38 AverageUser : Now I live in a European health care system, have utilized it quite a bit in recent years, and I've never experienced what you describe I should have
39 Dreadnought : As a financial professional, I'd like to see evidence of that. I just don't believe it. Yeah, right. That's the idea. Don't you think that basic heal
40 Post contains links Max550 : This is the best source on it I could find. It's hard to compare Medicare to private insurance because the people they insure are older and more expe
41 Dreadnought : Interesting. I have to read it in more detail, but a quick read seems to indicate that once you include all the medicare-related costs which are cove
42 FlyPNS1 : The problem is that even a trip to the doctor for a sore throat, plus a prescription could easily cost $100-200. For a family of four, those types of
43 Ken777 : Doubt you would believe it. Look at the other side of the coin. I had a 13 year old Mazda MX-3 that got beaten up by hail. The insurance company look
44 KC135TopBoom : Many of those case have gone into court. If the insurance company did not have a legal bases to deny the claim, they have lost. But Medicare is not a
45 Max550 : First of all, they often do have a legal basis to deny the claim, that's what the 15 pages of tiny writing in your policy is for. Second, what about
46 Ken777 : Hopefully. But let's look at the numbers. First you have everyone in the military and their families. Then everyone on VA Health Care. Then the reall
47 Dreadnought : You are trying to deflect. The numbers speak for themselves - a vast majority of Americans are insured, and according to recent polls a wide majority
48 Max550 : But there are at least 25 million more who are underinsured. If you take them into account, plus the 15% that are already insured through Medicare, i
49 Ken777 : I'm not trying to deflect. I'm simply pointing out that all government employees at ALL levels are getting health insurance at taxpayers' expense. If
50 Dreadnought : One of the provisions of this bill is that ALL federal employees should be required to be a part of this "public option", including Congress. That sa
51 Aa757first : Just out of curiosity, what goes into these numbers? Elective abortions? Face lifts? IVF? GI band surgery? Prescriptions for acne medications, Ambien
52 Ken777 : Good. That should ensure it is a reasonable program. You know that politicians won't go with something that keeps THEM from getting treatments. It al
53 Aa757first : No, companies do that as a benefit. Analyzing the outcomes of these tests (several thousand dollars, usually) would make it clear that it is not wort
54 Max550 : That does nothing to slow the inflation rate of health insurance. Sure, we could just pay for people to get insurance, but it doesn't do anything to
55 DXing : I'm paying a surcharge now because of, in part, the way the government now finances medicare and medicaid. I will still be paying a surcharge if and
56 Ken777 : Yes & no. Companies pay their full tab on that. It's in their interest, but your health costs (when you're old enough to pay them yourself) won't be
57 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : I never said what we have today is perfect, it clearly isn't. But, why would you ever consider replacing one bad system of health care for one that i
58 MSNDC9 : So if this is so great, why have the politicians excluded themselves from it? Just asking. Can I be excluded as well? I have insurance, I'm happy to p
59 Post contains links Max550 : I'd prefer to replace it with one that is better. You didn't seem to understand my point. I said that only about half of the people in the US are hap
60 MSNDC9 : Bull. Only as long as I stay with my present employer and only as long as they continue to provide the insurance. Starting in year 3 of the program,
61 Max550 : This is what I don't understand, the Republicans keep saying that government can't run anything so the public option will be really expensive. At the
62 MSNDC9 : 1. The Government can't run anything effectively. 2. It'll be cheaper and it will have fewer benefits. Those who don't have insurance will think its
63 DXing : Not as long as I'm within the bounds of my policy, what you are suggesting would be breach of contract. I could sue. Not so with a federal run progra
64 Max550 : If the government can't run anything effectively how will it be cheaper? You're already subsidizing them. If they go to a hospital it's much more exp
65 MSNDC9 : The expense of the program comes when an employeer has to essentially "double pay" for employee insurance. First to the insurance company (an amount
66 Max550 : Not saying you're wrong, but my understanding of the plan seems to be completely different from yours. Where are you getting your information from? C
67 FlyPNS1 : The bounds of your policy (and everyone elses for that matter) are so vaguely defined, its easy to deny claims. It happens everyday. You can appeal a
68 Post contains links MSNDC9 : KC135 provided the bills. They're thousands of pages but most of it is 8-10 lines a page. " target=_blank>http://help.senate.gov/BAI09A84_xml.pdf The
69 MSNDC9 : Oh, and I want a provision that says the following: 1. This plan shall not be available to anyone who is not a citizen of the United States. 2. Visito
70 Post contains links Max550 : I'm quite familiar with the bills. What you're saying doesn't match up with what the bills say unless the Senate bill is substantially different from
71 MSNDC9 : But you skipped right over subtitle A. And this provision here squeezes the doctors: (1) PHYSICIANS.—The Secretary shall provide 2 for the annual p
72 Max550 : I didn't, I was responding to your claim that the public option would be nothing like an insurance company and that it would be subsidized. How? That
73 MSNDC9 : So where is the 1 trillion coming from? Have you seen Medicare rates vs. say a PPO rate. The section referes to the social security act section that
74 Max550 : What 1 trillion? The cost of the program? That comes from the government subsidizing premiums for people who can't afford them. We would be spending
75 Ken777 : It's assumed that it is worse. After getting the shaft big time from a private insurance company I can easily tell I'm better off under Medicare & VA
76 MSNDC9 : No, that comes from my wallet in the form of a tax increase. The government can only "subsidize" if it generates more revenue. The only it can genera
77 MSNDC9 : Four years of undergrad Pre-Med at UW is going to set you back $40k if a resident, $90k if you are from out of state. Medical school will set you bac
78 Post contains links DXing : And it's just as easy to sue. As to lawyers, ask the tobacco companies how well their lawyers protected them. Perhaps because poll after poll has sho
79 Ken777 : And you don't think your tax payments are not used in part for medical care? It's amazing how some state schools can graduate really good medical pro
80 Jcs17 : I'm a Republican and I'm interested in "fixing" healthcare. However, what I'm not interested in is exactly what the Democrats are proposing. It looks
81 KC135TopBoom : I would too. This is not it. Did you bother to read the over 1000 pages in the House bill I posted, and the 600+ page Senate version? Do you even und
82 Davehammer : Not true but never mind.
83 FlyPNS1 : Fear mongering.....a conservative classic.
84 DXing : Don't think it is a matter of politics, all those ideas are good ones and should the part of the legislation but unfortunately, due to politics, and
85 Dreadnought : Denial - another classic not restricted to any group. Lets put all this in perspective. You have 3 groups now who do not have health insurance: 1) Pe
86 Davehammer : That's not denial Dreadnought. My Grandmother had a stroke aged 77. It effectively paralyzed her entire right side rendering daily life very difficult
87 Post contains links Dreadnought : Maybe she was lucky, but there are plenty of stories about government screwing up the health system. It's woth considering. http://www.thisislocallon
88 FlyPNS1 : Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. How happy will they be when their employer dumps it as most employers will be doing in the future? And even for those who can
89 Davehammer : The system is far from perfect, and I personally have private medical insurance as well. And generally I agree that the government is poor at running
90 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : Oh really? Go back and look at the national health care, as written, that you have in the UK. Then compare it to what has been proposed by the US Con
91 Post contains links DXing : If a decent healthcare proposal was passed the temptation to dump the healthcare benefit would be much less than it is now. It will be almost irresis
92 Davehammer : I'll admit I didn't read exactly what is proposed for the US, but I agree that if the administration has just lifted stuff from the UK and Canadian s
93 FlyPNS1 : Oh really. It says that healthcare will be doled out based on people's "worth to society". And look what has happened to our economy when too many pe
94 Ken777 : Not going to make a major change in costs. Texas has it and they didn't enjoy any noticeable drop. Why not add preventive medicine to (hopefully) avo
95 Post contains links DXing : I think you're wrong. Let's see your evidence, here's mine. http://www.tafp.org/news/TFP/07No2/1.asp Evidence of the legislation’s impact on health
96 Ken777 : Maybe you need to look again - just in case you end up needing care that insurance companies won't pay for. Actually I'm talking about the cost of ME
97 KC135TopBoom : I'll give you a clue, look in each bill under "limitations" No, in 1940, the average life expectance was 68, in 1950 it was 70, today it is 74. Do yo
98 Ken777 : Since I was born in the 40s I really can't comment - but I remember my father discussing medical insurance in the 50s when companies had no problems
99 DXing : The reduction would be in the amount of tests that a doctor orders in order to cover himself in case of a lawsuit. Indivdual procedure prices wouldn'
100 Post contains links FlyPNS1 : And no where in there does it say people's care will be based on their "worth to society." You are making it up just to spread fear. Actually, today
101 Ken777 : Tests also equal knowledge. With MRI now available it is logical to work the machine as much as possible. If you cut out half of the MRI tests ordere
102 DXing : That would be true if the minimum of tests were being ordered. That is not necessarily true. Anyone who thinks that you won't cut overall costs by no
103 AGM100 : We have a government ran by lawyers , this bill contains even more opportunity for trial lawyers to hammer private providers. Not only does it drive
104 Ken777 : Again, you cut the number of tests ordered you will change the fixed unit cost. The fixed costs will remain static at the macro level, meaning they w
105 DXing : Only if you cut below what it takes to make a profit. But if you are already doing 400 tests a year and it only takes 200 to turn a profit, then cutt
106 Ken777 : That assumes that the lab will be happy with a fraction of the profit they previously made and will let the increases in fixed costs eat away their p
107 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : It was the 1950s when a few unions started demanding health insurance in their contracts, however, it was the 1960s when that trend really took off.
108 Ken777 : I called for jury duty I would let my opinions be known, and let them take me if they want me. Legal action is only available to her husband and chil
109 DXing : It also assumes there are other labs that do the same work which creates competition that holds down the price. The only way to continue that incenti
110 KC135TopBoom : Correct, most insurance companies correct SNAFUs and FUBARs, they learn from past mistakes. No one can say the way MEDICARE and MEDICAID even care ab
111 Ken777 : I consider a $1,200+ a month policy that doesn't cover chemo and radiation (even with chemo & radiation "included" to be over priced. As a one man co
112 AGM100 : No way to prove it , its just another angle too further their argument. I need to check this out , but evidently contained in the bill is a "mandate"
113 Ken777 : I wouldn't be too concerned about what is on the table right now - there is plenty of time for compromises. Unfortunately it's only the conservative
114 AGM100 : Its not as big of a problem as is being hyped ... what needs to be done is get the government further away for the busyness of health care .. and mor
115 Ken777 : We've been there, done that. Health insurance has gone through the roof to the point that traditional employee benefits are clearly under the microsc
116 FlyPNS1 : But it's the government that creates the environment to allow all that individual spending to occur. You do realize that the U.S. has achieved its gr
117 DXing : So let me get this straight. A policy that costs $1,200.00 a month, that allowed your wife to get screened for a cancer that could have killed her wa
118 AGM100 : Not really , we have a huge tax funded system that drains peoples money out of the economy on one side and a private free market on the other. That d
119 MSNDC9 : Just out of curiosity, do you believe everyone should have the same insurance under this program regardless of income level? My insurance covers ever
120 Dreadnought : I'm visiting Europe right now and have been talking to a number of people about health care. I had dinner with a French general practitioner last nigh
121 LAXintl : Funny part is many Europeans are turning to and adopting private supplementary health care insurance, and here we are headed in the opposite directio
122 AverageUser : Ok, here's another day today under a nationalized health care scheme from me, a true story: A crusty old doc with a bodily odour, waiting for his bel
123 DXing : In this country once the freeway is built they immediately put out orange cone and barrels to repair what they didn't get right the first time thus s
124 AGM100 : This is primary effort behind health care Pelosi style .... votes votes votes. They don't care about our health they want the credit for free health
125 Ken777 : A private policy that costs $1,200 a month is, first, going to be out of the reach of many Americans. Second, it is a good indication of what employe
126 DXing : Which helped to diagnose a life threatening condition with your wife. Again, what is your wife's life worth to you? Evidently not $1200.00 a month so
127 Cwapilot : I love how Republicans are used as the evil boogeyman keeping Americans from their health care. Democrats control the executive and legislative branch
128 AGM100 : A very good post Cwa , The sense is that eventually there will be no private option .... that is what the liberal socialist Dem's want. They want the
129 Ken777 : No, going to the ER did that. Insurance had nothing to do with it as I would have taken her even if I wasn't paying for a shitty insurance. And with
130 AGM100 : Check your self , I have plainly laid out my position. Get the fed out of price fixing the system with huge bureaucratic program costs . You don't ag
131 Ken777 : How does that get insurance company rejects covered with insurance?
132 MSNDC9 : My concern is about where it will be in the future. I want the best care available. Not the best care available depending on what the government deci
133 LAXintl : Frankly I dont see why any company would have to insure or do business with anyone. Are we going to force car insurance companies to cover all driver
134 Ken777 : Actually Social Security has been paying out to the retired for 70+ years, being a critical safety net for many. I paid my taxes the years I was work
135 LAXintl : No I clearly dont support a mass public option perse. What I do support is a companies ability to price and cover risk as they see fit. One person mi
136 Tommy767 : I just graduated from college and currently have no health care. My provider had the nerve to drop me at the VERY end of the month of me graduating. Y
137 KC135TopBoom : Only partially true. While government funded research has shown some promises, and cures, but most were found by commerical drug companies and compan
138 Ken777 : And guess how much a severe downs or CP adult makes a month? There are far too many medical conditions to be covered in a thread. DocLightening can t
139 StasisLAX : My friend, for a huge dose of humility and knowledge, I recommend that you go spend the day in the emergency room of a large metropolitian hospital w
140 Ken777 : And huge amount of private sector research is funded with public money, as is university/med school research. My main point is that it is the innovat
141 AGM100 : Incentives providers to care for them and for insurance companies to cover them. Offer tax breaks , or other incentives to cover some of the cost. I
142 LAXintl : Why should there ever be a one price fits all? I suppose you would like to go back to pre- deregulation days then when airline fares were pretty much
143 AGM100 : Well said , the Dems must make it seem like everything is FUBAR to gain power. They did the same thing with the war in Iraq ,, all bad news all the b
144 Ken777 : Because there are laws on the books that force the public to take care of them. My wife treated handicapped kids in the school system because the sch
145 Tommy767 : I'm aware. Last year I had a mild case of Mono during my junior year of college. Good thing I was covered back then. The bills added up to thousands
146 FlyMIA : No they did not find WMD but they found plenty of other stuff like biological weapons and other chemicals plutonium the media does not know everythin
147 AGM100 : Ya you missed it alright , and your missing it now too. But hey , the future belongs to you and your pals . Lets discuss this 50 years from now ... w
148 Ken777 : I'll be dead in 50 years - even under private insurance! The future belongs to the kid, even the ones denied coverage today or in the future because
149 DXing : Not what you said. Aside from the fact it is you that purchased the insurance that you complain about, the fact remains you said: So if the insurance
150 MSNDC9 : Social Security is unsustainable right now. So if you get 70 years out of this mess then you can call it good? Remove "Insurance Companies", insert "
151 Post contains links AGM100 : Ha amazing , Democrats scoffing at members who actualy suggest "reading the bill" before the vote. He said he needs 2 lawyers just to help him read it
152 Ken777 : Sorry you had trouble understanding what I was trying to say. Sorry you had trouble understanding what I was trying to say. Who would disagree that i
153 KC135TopBoom : Ken, SS will be bankrupt somewhere between 2017 and 2030. The Dems in Congress saw fit to give SS benefits to people who never paid into the system.
154 Ken777 : I actually doubt that. Over the years SS has changed a lot. And it will change in the future to meet the needs of the future. As our population gets
155 EA772LR : I want to know why there hasn't been one liberal on this forum who will address this?? I mean let's be honest here. If public plan under ObamaCare is
156 KC135TopBoom : SS will be out of money sometime between 2017 and 2030. Perhaps. In the 1950s there were some 25 US workers that supported each SS recipent. Today th
157 AGM100 : Rush played the Presidents "town hall" health care speech today. The President sounds very defensive , and almost desperate . Blaming Bush for making
158 EA772LR : The Dems voted against giving up their healthcare for Obamacare. 44 Reps voted for it. In the words of Ted Nuggent..."WE THE SHEEPLE" Words of Wisdom
159 Ken777 : SS gave politicians a lot of cheap funding and I have no doubt that the politicians will ensure it keeps going. And there is another issue - politici
160 Seb146 : As opposed to Bush II ramming "security" down our throats and expanding government faster than any previous adminitration based on fear? Being forced
161 StasisLAX : Which is why I and many others refer the National Republican Party as the party of the status quo and the party of "NO" with a deepseated fear of a "
162 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : No, politicians pay is not tied to SS increases, it is tied to the CPI (consumer price index), and for members of Congress, it is automatic, unless C
163 AGM100 : Right , that's why they passed the largest entitlement program in 20 years ..prescription drug plan. Bush was wrong ... and I said it at the time. He
164 Ken777 : I think it would be a great idea if everyone below a certain income level, every rejected by any health insurance company and anyone refused payment
165 EA772LR : Right...and where was the compromise with Bush for the last 2 years the Dems controlled the house and senate?? And you must be joking...you don't see
166 DXing : Not me, but who would disagree that if you drop millions into a system that allows them full access to a range of healthcare options that that system
167 Max550 : How would that work? I don't see any benefit to doing that over the current proposal. It would cost at least the same amount or more, do nothing to l
168 EA772LR : He won by a few million votes, mostly independents, who are among the group polled now that have significantly dropped their support for Obama. What
169 Seb146 : Right. So, the 15% (your statistic) of people that were kicked off of their health care for having cancer or some other type of serious illness would
170 Max550 : First off, I wouldn't call 9.5 million "a few million." Secondly, he should do what he was elected to do, regardless of how the people who voted for
171 KC135TopBoom : Perhaps, if they actually sat down to think for themselves, instead of licking the boots of lib groups like ACORN, and letting them dictate what to w
172 AGM100 : Of course no one has to switch , the plan is too just offer free care then let the market do the rest. Private insurance will most likly go away in a
173 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : My new thread showing the GOP has made a health care proposal was deleted. So here is the link showing they have a plan of their own. http://www.foxne
174 EA772LR : Who said that going against the will of the majority was a good thing? It wasn't under Bush, and it's not under Obama. I guess we'll never know right
175 Ken777 : There will always be a lot of spending that is not in the Constitution. How about NASA? Is the NIH covered? A plan written by the pharmaceutical indu
176 Max550 : I must apologize for my stupidity, but how would it save money? The government would cover 45 million more people and it would cost less? I have, whe
177 KC135TopBoom : With 52% + of the country now against the Dem proposals in Congress now, I would say BHO is now running against the majority will. It wasn't just ACO
178 Max550 : How is Obama going against the will of the majority? Right, it will always be a big mystery who won the '08 election. I don't want to get too off top
179 AGM100 : The US has progressed ,, we have gone though amazing transitions and will continue too. It is because of our freedom and our constitution that we kee
180 MSNDC9 : It exempts them by way of omission. Their insurance was created by seperate legislation years ago and it is not defined as being included in this pla
181 MSNDC9 : The roads would be self funded if the fuel taxes weren't raided for social programs. Automobile fuel taxes, registration fees, taxes from the sale of
182 KC135TopBoom : The 52% + people in the US who don't want the government screwing up health care. The fraudelent registrations were done in states that do not requir
183 MSNDC9 : Must be why so many people want to come here. What exactly do you think is going to happen when America announces free healthcare for everyone citize
184 Zotan : Healthcare can't be marketed like bread or butter, and thus the free market will not work with it. There are two strongly distinctive aspects of healt
185 DXing : That's the spirit, let's not have an honest debate as to how overloaded the system will become and in so doing, force that dirty R word on everyone.
186 Ken777 : Give it time. The legislation changed again this week and will continue to change. The best thing Republicans could do was be apart of the process in
187 Seb146 : So, some Dems and all Republicans did not like that plan. Therefore, the supposed leader of the country (according to Republican Kool-Ade drinkers),
188 Ken777 : You must think that we are now in Utopia. Been listening to Rush too much? Not trying to impose my will - just expressing my opinion. That's what thi
189 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : Yes, the legislation has changed, and will change even more. But the dems were always afraid of the August reccess because they know the people will
190 Seb146 : I see. So, those that were denied or turned down or had their premiums raised beyond what they could afford are lying? Or are those statistics simply
191 EA772LR : Oh please. What has the Democratic Party done for Blacks or anybody else recently? The Democratic party basically re-enslaved blacks with their "Grea
192 Post contains links Dtwclipper : An interesting read on the race issue as it deals with the both the GOP and Dems and how they have both chanaged over the course of time. "The true h
193 AGM100 : Last word from me on it. No system will ever be perfect ... but free-market can correct fast.. Big government can not. Name one federal system that ca
194 MSNDC9 : No, when you advocate for a massive program I have to pay for as a taxpayer that undercuts a benefit that I have today then you are imposing your wil
195 MSNDC9 : Everytime your party pushes through a new social program dreamed up over a peace pipe in the 60's you prove just how communist your party's thinking
196 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : I suggest you know the facts before you begin talking about something you have absolutely no knowledge of. BTW, I said "jamming" not "rammed" I sugge
197 MSNDC9 : Health care reform and government provided insurance for health care are two completely separate issues. This isn't health care reform being proposed
198 Dtwclipper : What does the Teachers Union and Acorn have to do with this? You do yourself and views a disservice when you respond like this. By mocking people you
199 Post contains links EA772LR : Unbelievable. Sad but true. Nearly everything the Feds get involved in turns out to be a inflated disaster. Obama is proving the only way he knows ho
200 AGM100 : Ooops ... ACORN and SIEU are involved with writing the bill .... Ok that's the last word from me . My birthday tomorrow , taking my girl to Vegas ton
201 Ken777 : It sure wasn't made up for this family. $20,000 cash out the door for two years before Medicare picked us up and I'm sitting here trying to figure ou
202 MSNDC9 : I think that concerns me even more. Its like they put a jug of kool-aid on the counter and they don't care what's in it, they just drink it. They rus
203 Ken777 : So any program that Rush and friends don't like would be communsts backed. Well, the Fat Boy (and Dickhead Cheney) managed to avoid the draft and mil
204 KC135TopBoom : Then why not find a reference that is UNBIASED? Picking one that stays on either party line does not tell all the facts. Bias has everything to do wi
205 Ken777 : A dose of the polio vaccine costs less than the electrical cord for an iron lung. Massive research was funded in large part by the March of Dimes, bu
206 Dtwclipper : I don't know KC, saying "both the Republican and Democratic parties supported unfavorable policies toward racial minorities rooted in the belief in w
207 MSNDC9 : Actually, Congress has authorized billions from the aviation trust fund over the last 20 years to support the upgrades. The problem is the FAA as a g
208 KC135TopBoom : Correct, I also remember getting polio shots, then later drinks in school. They don't do that today. Each parent is responsible to get their kids sho
209 MSNDC9 : " target=_blank>http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...plan/ Thank God. Some common sense.
210 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : Well, it appears there may be a loop-hole in the current bills that could allow illegal aliens access to the nation wide health insurance program. ht
211 Dreadnought : To anyone who thinks that this is unintentional, I have some wonderful beachfront property to talk to you about...
212 KC135TopBoom :
213 Ken777 : Actually we're in a queer bit of a situation here. Our population is growing old and we need some "young blood" - especially those who can work ant p
214 KC135TopBoom : Actually, the IRS does have a program for illegals to pay taxes, they issue a tax ID number, but in a different format than a business tax ID is. This
215 Ken777 : That is the part that a lot of people don't understand - there is a percentage of your monthly SS payments that go to disability insurance - just lik
216 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : But, if you don't have a surviving family (defined as wife and/or children under the age of 18), no one collects on what you have paid, except for th
217 AGM100 : Its a good point . Why not just be honest and "sell" the people on the idea that Private is bad and Government is good. He should just be honest and
218 Post contains links MSNDC9 : This explains the highway funding problems of today: http://americandreamcoalition.org/CitGuide.pdf
219 Ken777 : Years ago I would agree that private is the best way to go. Then a lot of companies, including health insurance companies, started bringing in MBAs -
220 KC135TopBoom : Just wait until it comes out that Obama "is forced into a tax increase because this is all Bush's fault". Tax increases on all of us is coming my fri
221 AGM100 : Ken , I agree with you there for sure... Never have been much for MBA's myself. Thank god my controllers are not ! But we have some great insurance c
222 KC135TopBoom : Correct. In 2007, the year I got cancer, my employeer had Blue Cross Blue Shield for our health care, I chose their HMO, called HMO Blue that year. T
223 Max550 : We have a system to deal with that in this country. If you're not happy with the people in Congress you can vote for someone else. You know you're wi
224 MSNDC9 : She's a freak. That was a compliment.
225 Ken777 : My Medicare experience has been nothing but positive - and that includes getting a heart cath and a gallbladder out. Indicated treatments and tests w
226 AGM100 : It should be. We pay into it every week for our entire lives .. then when we need it they pay it back. It is as simple as a savings account in some r
227 MSNDC9 : So what will you do when Medicare goes away?
228 Seb146 : My only problem has been moving to a different state. Other than that, I have not had a problem. I had "socialized" medicine in Oregon. It was just f
229 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : Many people in the US, not connected to Congress, or the government have taken the time to read the various bills. Most in Congress still have not (i
230 MSNDC9 : Thats what everyone is concerned about. If it's mismanaged, which it will be, then benefits decline and rationing begins. The call today is that Soci
231 AGM100 : 100% Spot On... you pay into it all your life and the Fed manipulates your life with it in the end ... What else needs to be said.! Frankly I would l
232 Max550 : Those aren't people who understand what's going on, those are people who don't want to spend the time asking tough questions of their representatives
233 AGM100 : I know , its a quandary indeed. But the problem will only grow as our population becomes more reliant on the Fed. Like the President said ... it will
234 Ken777 : They have managed it pretty well for me. Whch means that the Federal Treasury owes SS & Medicare a lot of money. First we need to ensure that the peo
235 MSNDC9 : You're assuming it won't which is a huge mistake on your part. This isn't about politics. Its about a government that - ALWAYS - grossly underestimat
236 Ken777 : My old high school history teacher told us that everything changes - by evolution or revolution. If SS & Medicare is allowed to fail there will be a
237 MSNDC9 : You might just see that over this very issue in 2010.
238 EA772LR : I respectfully have to disagree Ken. Conservatives wouldn't deny healthcare to senior citizens, but under ObamaCare, senior citizens are certainly go
239 MSNDC9 : We can dream right?
240 KC135TopBoom : Actually, those are the people who understand what is going on, those who don't understand it, or don't care one way or the other stayed home. Repres
241 StasisLAX : But your social security disability benefits will come NO WHERE CLOSE to what you're current actual income is - for instance, a coworker has cancer,
242 AGM100 : Why didn't she have insurance ? Did you ask ? .... $66K is plenty to have yourself a decent policy. Not being harsh .... but you gotta have some kind
243 Ken777 : If the short end of the stick is Medicare then it is not a problem for me. No third party can bring anything unless it has more followers than the Bi
244 EA772LR : Wait a second, are you trying to confuse me? That's disturbing. And I have heard many more people talk about Obama and threats on him. Sad really. Th
245 KC135TopBoom : But, Ken, under all three current proposals both Medicare and Medicaid will be raped to help pay for the new plan. No one has come out and said those
246 Yellowstone : That's blatantly untrue. Obama won 69.5 million votes to McCain's 59.9 million, a difference of 9.6 million votes. In 2004, Bush took home 62.0 milli
247 KC135TopBoom : Agreed, he needed to win NC too to start a roll after the east coasts polls closed. Winning FL would have also helped. IIRC, on the east coast McCain
248 Max550 : That's untrue as well. According to the census bureau there are 3,140 counties or county equivalents in the US. The best number I can come up with is
249 Ken777 : I'm not worried about my Medicare benefits simply because there are too many of us now in our 60s and up. We're talking grey power and any politician
250 EA772LR : That's good stuff! Those bastards in D.C. on both sides better not start screwing with veterans health care. Many of those vets have paid a hefty pri
251 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:20...ral_Election_Results_by_County.PNG Correct, but at least the Dems don't worry about the military vote, because
252 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : Oh, this is just perfect. Princess Nancy has stuck her foot in her mouth, again. She is accusing those who attend the town hall meetings and opposing
253 Max550 : I didn't see any numbers there. Am I supposed to count them?
254 AGM100 : Well they certainly are doing it. You have Medicare insurance .... they are trying to add basically 250 million new customers to your plan. Including
255 Seb146 : Because why? Congress keeps borrowing from that program. It would not be bankrupt if, during the Reagan years, Congress had not had been allowed to t
256 EA772LR : First of all, under ObamaCare, a bureaucrat will be the middleman telling those over 60 that maybe they are too old receive treatments. One of our cl
257 AGM100 : No they are not .... Our fearless representative Gabby Giffords canceled her meeting in Tucson today and wrote a oped about the noise. No one was bus
258 Arrow : Now why would you allow that to happen? I don't know of anywhere else in the developed world where a bureaucrat denies treatment. As a 63-year-old, I
259 MSNDC9 : And you think they'll protect this? They go after the Aviation trust fund all the time only to get thumped by Airline Lawyers. No one to stop them he
260 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : What is wrong with the "teabaggers"? They shout to be heard over the likes of Dumb Dems (is that a double negitive?) who are to stupid to know they a
261 EA772LR : KC135 beat me to it: I'm not advocating a theocracy at all. There needs to be a separation of church and state, but that's a debate better left to an
262 MSNDC9 : I'm constantly amused by their cost forecast that ends at 2019. Is the end of the world coming? Is that when the plan goes belly up? Does it continue
263 FlyPNS1 : That's the number of people without coverage if NO bill is enacted. Given the perpetual lies you tell about the bill and your inability to read a bas
264 Post contains links Arrow : Yeah, really. An excerpt from a Christian Science Monitor story: "But researchers concluded that it was the Americans who should take particular note
265 KSYR : Dems have been stifling free speech for years now, mostly on university campuses across the country. Hardly anyone said a word about it. How differen
266 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : Sorry There is no line in the US Constitution that says "seperation of church and state". But the Constitution does treat religion under two clauses,
267 Ken777 : Even those who are Democrats? Sounds great to me if it reduces the costs of private insurance to levels that other countries enjoy. There will be so
268 Arrow : No, they pay for it. And we pay for it too; through annual insurance premiums (mine is $1200 annually for a family) and through taxes. No one ever sa
269 Seb146 : Ummm... acutally, no. You are wrong. They shout to drown out anyone who actually wants to say anything constructive. I have heard the shouts. They of
270 Post contains links Dreadnought : My, oh my, who's been drinking the Kool-Aid? Firstly, ABC News tried to confirm what you have apparently been reading off of the Daily Kos or whateve
271 Seb146 : Youtube, but go on... It just sounds like noise to me. No one can hear anything except that the teabaggers are shouting. Mostly, stop raising premium
272 Post contains links and images Dreadnought : That means that some regulation is needed, not hand it over to a government that has designed this disaster: Obama, for one. If Private insurance wor
273 AverageUser : Ok, greetings from an ill-performing European public heath care system! There's an earlier post by myself in the thread which you might want as see we
274 Dreadnought : All that says is that the US needs to eliminate with extreme prejudice the concept of tying your health care with your employer (which the Obama admi
275 FlyPNS1 : You realize that chart is made by Republicans and is not an actual representation of the way the system works. And if you are honest with yourself, y
276 Post contains images Max550 : Much worse than the current system shown in this chart:
277 KSYR : As I said before, what goes around comes around. The far left has been doing the exact same thing for years now, but I guess it only makes prime time
278 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : There are lots of democrats that don't support these bills, but are having their arms twisted by their "leadership" There in is the problem. There ar
279 EA772LR : Ken that quote isn't form me. I was never in the military, but my brother is a doctor in the Army. Oh I get it now...it's only to be loud and obnoxio
280 Post contains links Dreadnought : Keep telling yourself that. I've worked in companies ranging from 3 people to 200,000, and I've never seen anything so convoluted. But of course we w
281 MSNDC9 : Most of it is actually older people in their 60's.
282 AverageUser : But regrettably has remained not done for quite a while? So everyone in the nation has a cap of say USD 600 that they are guaranteed not to have to s
283 Max550 : How do you control costs without the public option? Without it we're basically telling the insurance companies to keep doing what they're doing while
284 Ken777 : My apologies for that. The chart actually was dreamed up by a member of Bonner's staff. And I would bet that one of the Docs is from Oklahoma, in whi
285 Max550 : Right, and if you really look at the chart it doesn't even prove what they're trying to prove. There are 2 arrows going out of the consumer, taxes an
286 Dreadnought : The public option would end up increasing the costs, according to CBO. As it is, Medicare is driving up the prices of private health care, as medicar
287 Seb146 : As looked at from the right. As looked at from the rest of the country, it is trying to get affordable health care for the majority of us that have b
288 FlyPNS1 : They're Republicans, so of course they will blame Medicare/Medicaid. It's no surprise that Medicare/Medicaid have high costs. They provide insurance
289 KC135TopBoom : Yeah, the government is the answer to everything. They hhave a great record of almost everything they touch, Medicare, Medicaid, FAA, TSA, Farm subst
290 Post contains links FlyPNS1 : The numbers I quoted were already converted to U.S. Dollars. http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/chcm010307oth.cfm Notice at the bottom where it st
291 PPVRA : You are a broken record about rising insurance premiums. But costs are rising everywhere, including in Europe. There, they are having massive deficit
292 Max550 : Republicans used the filibuster all the time too. Obviously the Dems used it more during the Bush years since the Republicans controlled the Senate f
293 Seb146 : Yeah. Someone who actually has health insurance for a couple of years, gets the sniffles that just will not go away for six months or so only to find
294 AirframeAS : IMHO, I don't think anybody in Washington D.C. is even interested in the issue at all.
295 KC135TopBoom : " target=_blank>http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapsho...h.cfm Your charts are from 2007 My information is current as of June 2009, those are the corre
296 DXing : As a matter of fact it has, and it has moved towards what the GOP has stated was necessary all along. They are even calling it by the right name now,
297 Post contains links FlyPNS1 : So, it doesn't change the point that the U.S. spends far more on healthcare than Canada does per person. A point you have never been able to refute.
298 DXing : Therin lies the rub. The plan won't take full effect until his second term or after he is out of office. Can't fail once you've retired. If that were
299 PPVRA : If it's something else then it's something else. Insurance may actually make sense depending what it is.
300 Post contains links Arrow : From Statistics Canada: Estimated Canadian population As of July 2009: 33,740,287. Wow, we picked up nearly 3 million people in ONE month. http://www
301 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : How much union support (which already has health insurance, many are "gold plated plans" like the UAW has) will BHO get once they find out they will
302 Max550 : From '06-'08. They didn't actually use it that much because they could just threaten to use it and the Democrats would get scared and give in. But th
303 DXing : Sure, at a continually rising cost every year that can't be touched unless the law that put them into being is changed. Because Medicare per se, is n
304 Seb146 : On the wealthy during war time. He was funding a war, but taxes were lowered, mainly on the rich. Hence the hundreds of billions of dollars of defici
305 PPVRA : People get cancer treatment under insurance all the time. Oh and guess what, the greedy socialists in Europe also drop cancer patients that get too e
306 Post contains links DXing : So am I, so is every other American. All we have is what the House has released since the Senate version has not passed out of the finance committee.
307 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : Correct, the Repubs didn't use the filabuster, as you calimed they did. They could get their way simply by a threat of useing it, and the Dems caved.
308 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : More info for your reading pleasure. From the CATO Institute; http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=5871 What happened to the "big health care ra
309 Post contains links Aaron747 : Senator Bob Bennett (R-Utah) delivered this excellent synopsis of the situation without fluff or lobbyist banter back in March. http://www.youtube.com
310 Seb146 : Which is exactly why unemployment in this country is so low, right? To pay for his war? How is that helping? Now, all of his debt he borrowed from Ch
311 Aaron747 : You'd be wise to back corporations as well, or at least hope for their success, as they provide the majority of jobs and investment capital in our co
312 DXing : How you can possibly say that with a straight face given all that happened in the previous years, going all the way back the 60's is beyond me. The l
313 AirframeAS : Do you really think anyone is interested in fixing heath care at all? I don't think anyone is except for the average U.S. citizen.
314 EA772LR : What is it with liberals and 'tax cuts for the rich'. I'm by no means rich, but even I can understand simple math like: a wealthy man who makes $1,00
315 Cws818 : It is not "his own CBO." The CBO is independent, non-partisan, and not at all connected to the Obama Administration.
316 DXing : As a matter of fact I do. I think more than a few political leaders would like to fix the way health insurance in this country works and that has bee
317 KC135TopBoom : Which GOP nominated federal judges lesislate from the bench? Do you have names? I can give you a few liberal judges that have and will ligsislate fro
318 Ken777 : I can remember during the Vietnam War era all we needed was active duty in excess of the "6 month wonders" and we would be eligible for the GI Bill.
319 Arrow : On that day, yes. Today it's not correct. And it wouldn't have been correct a couple of years ago when, for a few months, the Canadian dollar was wor
320 Seb146 : What about your good ol' boy out there nearly every day talking about spreading freedom and *deomcracy* to places like Iraq, Iran, Norht Korea and su
321 Revelation : Yes,. but Bush/Cheney et al kept the Iraq and Afghanistan adventures "off budget" and chose not to deal with the auto or banking issues, except for s
322 AGM100 : The people of America who would like Federal Free health-care and for government to take care of them .. are not un-American at all. They are the ance
323 Revelation : Not at all sure where you're coming from. The fact is we are paying for everyone's health care right now, via the emergency room. And the fact is tha
324 Dvk : If you believe this is true, you have misread the proposals. Do not listen to the extremists like, yes, Sarah Palin, who are spouting all the lies ab
325 Post contains links Dreadnought : Oh really? http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.txt.pdf How about reading pages 425 onward, where all seniors will be su
326 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : They are doing now with the Oregon Health Plan, denying a 64 year old cancer woman the drugs she needs to live. The state say they will pay for an as
327 AGM100 : We don't need a health care system ... we don't need bureaucracies to run out lives .. If you stripped government rule out of the program ..free-mark
328 Mt99 : And insurance companies have never ever denied what is covered right? Are you feeling sorry for her? Why? Compassion is liberal sentiment, only felt
329 FlyPNS1 : It's pretty sad that you are so devoid of integrity that you would make this kind of garbage up. You are so desperate to scare people since you know
330 Post contains links Dreadnought : Oh, and for any of you who don't like to hear about Obama's true intentions, here they are in his own voice. The purpose of all this is indeed a singl
331 FlyPNS1 : But we already know this isn't true. Without government intervention, the free market will not provide coverage for the poor and/or elderly.
332 Post contains links Dreadnought : It's right-bloody-there! Are you blind??? Or are you like the child standing next to the shattered vase with a hammer in his hand, shaking his head s
333 Dreadnought : They can be made to provide coverage with proper regulation. In fact some of the regulation needed is in the current bill. I have been pushing for su
334 AGM100 : Really we don't , the government options have been growing for the past 40 years .... it has landed us just where we are.. So which one has failed ?
335 Mt99 : [quote=Dreadnought,reply=333]regulation[/quote Regulation? Are you insane? The free market regulates itself. What are you becoming? A communist?
336 FlyPNS1 : Let's just take one example from your list. While true the government insurance will cover family/marriage therapy (as do many private insurers today
337 Dreadnought : On this I disagree with you. I find completely unfettered capitalism to be an unattractive option as well. Ever read Sinclair? Otherwise, you are bas
338 Dreadnought : I never said I was against regulation - as long as it is simple and clear in purpose. 90% of current regulations of just about any industry are relic
339 FlyPNS1 : What is proper regulation?? Force insurance companies to lose hundreds of billions of dollars covering those cannot pay, but use tremendous amounts o
340 Mt99 : sorry you don't get to expalin yourself. If you were to have a Town Hall meeting you would be heckled. Regulation is a bad word only spoken by social
341 Seb146 : Right. So, the activist judges on the right decided to stop everything the State of Florida was doing. The FEDS decided what was best for the state o
342 Yellowstone : The existing situation is already a giant bureaucracy. And if you stripped government rule out of the program, insurance companies would get to decid
343 Dvk : Yes, really. You are cherry picking and placing your own liberal (pun intended) interpretation on many items. What you and many others fail to unders
344 AGM100 : Of course , I stated the government is there to regulate and oversee .. but not be take our money and give it to others to the level the Dems want. I
345 Ken777 : It's the 1700s version of aluminum hats. Some people actually believe Palin's crap, no matter how far out in right field it is. I guess that those pe
346 StasisLAX : Exactly correct. The private health care industry "cherry-picks" the market for younger people, without health conditions, or family histories of "ex
347 FlyPNS1 : Again, private universities compete against public universities all the time. FedEx/UPS compete with the Post Office and do fine. Private industry ca
348 Mt99 : I know right. All of the sudden they turn into Mother Theresa and want to save people at any cost. Didn't "empathy" got Sotomayor in trouble?
349 DXing : Such as? BTW since the democratic party controls both Houses of Congress as well as the White House, why bother with the GOP? Why don't they just pas
350 AGM100 : Have not seen any , don't need commercials to see what they are trying too do. Thanks to opposition the bill will be stripped down to size hopefully
351 Yellowstone : Which is not going to happen. The only way the current plan would eliminate people's ability to choose their health care is if the public option is s
352 AGM100 : So why penalize companies and individuals who do not choose the public option.? If we opt out ..we should not pay higher taxes to pay for those freel
353 Yellowstone : You don't have to. By my understanding of the current plan, you would have to pay somewhat higher taxes to pay for those who cannot afford health car
354 AGM100 : So when they can afford it do I get my money back ? Yellowstone to me that is the problem , But hey I am different , and lost in America I guess. goo
355 Yellowstone : You probably won't get your money back, no. For me, I guess what it comes down to is a belief that health care is right up there with food, shelter,
356 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : I wonder if you would say that when it comes to someone you love. Or do you love anyone? You really are full of BS, aren't you? The free market insur
357 Yellowstone : Some people are born into situations in which they cannot provide for themselves (or have great difficulty doing so). Luckily, most of society has ev
358 Max550 : I don't have time to respond to all the other things you've written, but you're not serious about that, are you? What would your definition of a cons
359 Seb146 : First off, I could not load the web page. Second, I saw this exact format on Ed Schultz last night on MSNBC. He was reporting the lies and half-truth
360 FlyPNS1 : If you are uninsured and go to the hospital, they will treat you and then send you a bill. If you do not pay the bill, they will come after you. The
361 Yellowstone : You missed the point. The free market doesn't love anyone. If you run things purely under free market ideals, that's when you start having insurance
362 Dvk : No, it was 5-4 and Souter voted against stopping the recount. He felt there was no constitutional basis for the Supreme Court to intervene!
363 DXing : Feel free to expand on that statement with some documentation to back it up.
364 Dvk : Why don't you look it up yourself? I'm right on this one. But for a few: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_v._Gore infoplease.com/ipa/A0877961.html nj.com/n
365 Mt99 : Love? Are you kidding me? It ALL about profits man. Wall Street rules. If i where you i would cut my losses and invest in Coffin Makers. Let the free
366 DXing : Because I'm not the one making the statement as fact? If you want to issue a statement as fact, back it up. I either do, or qualify my statement. It
367 Post contains images LAXintl : With some luck this August Congressional recess will serve at the needed time-out for most Democtrats to realize how big of a lemon these ideas are an
368 AGM100 : It brings up a good point . So if I am inclined to pay a share of one of my fellow "under privileged" citizens health care bill.... what do I get in
369 Dvk : BS. The Supreme Court final decision was 5-4, period. You're just blowing smoke and refusing to admit that I was right. It was the final decision tha
370 KC135TopBoom : No. it isn't some people, it is EVERYONE here in the US. The only people that don't have a real chance to succeed are those with mantal disabilities
371 Yellowstone : But the barriers people must overcome to reach that success vary widely. Yes, an African-American male born to a poor single mother in a bad neighbor
372 Post contains links DXing : Sorry, but that simply is not a true statement. Once again, from a link you provided: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_v._Gore The per curiam opinio
373 Arrow : I'm not going to argue with the points you are trying to make because it is an exercise in futility. As the old saying goes, there is none so blind a
374 Yellowstone : From the same link: So the 7-2 ruling was on the recount as proposed by the Florida SC, but it was the subsequent 5-4 ruling which held that no form
375 Ken777 : Not conservative or liberal from what I can tell - goes after the big, hot headlines - sort of like The Sun in the UK (thesun.co.uk) except The Sun h
376 DXing : I'm sorry but that is simply wrong as you pointed out yourself: The 7-2 voted centered on the 14th amendment. All the rest was up to the FL SC and VP
377 Yellowstone : No, you're still wrong. The Florida SC instituted one particular recount plan. The 7-2 vote ruled that that particular recount plan violated the 14th
378 Seb146 : What? That a web site funded by a pharmacutical company was simply "cut and pasted" onto this thread? That three justices inserted themselves into a
379 Yellowstone : Yep. Ever since Constantine, conservatives have been conveniently forgetting that Christianity calls for a radical reorganization of social prioritie
380 DXing : Nope. As you quoted, Gore could have appealed the 5-4 decision, he could not appeal the 7-2 decision. He chose to drop his appeal process and it was
381 Yellowstone : No, he could not have appealed the 5-4 decision--like the 7-2 decision, it was a final decision from the Supreme Court, and Supreme Court decisions c
382 Post contains links DXing : Yes he could have since that decision gave the Florida SC the opportunity to re-evaluate their ealier decision. The FL SC declined to do so but even
383 Post contains images AverageUser : "The best healthcare in the world -- why fix anything."
384 KC135TopBoom : But, why does the government need to level the playing field? When ever the government does try leveling the [playing field, all they end up doing is
385 Max550 : Isakson sponsored an amendment to the House bill that provides for end-of-life counseling. I believe that is what Seb146 is referring to.
386 Seb146 : Yes. Thank you. Johnny Isakson, *Republican* from Georgia, proposed that every five years, seniors have end-of-life counseling covered. Doctors and c
387 Post contains links DXing : Wrong again. http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpu...-also-on-house-democrats-bill.html “This is what happens when the President and members of Cong
388 Ken777 : And all the vets that have served their country? Are we socialists because we get health care at the VA. I guess TopBoom is the biggest socialists of
389 Yellowstone : Maybe there's a bit of confusion here - I was discussing what would occur if the health insurance market were run entirely by free-market principles,
390 Max550 : How was he wrong? If you read the blog you quoted you'd see the paragraph before the one you quoted says: "But, apparently Obama did not invoke Isaks
391 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : Did you read the whole blog? Do you have the ability to understand it? You do seem to have that lack of understanding other things written that many
392 Yellowstone : One wonders if you read the references you cited. So the voters choose electors; they don't vote for the president. Plus, the states get to decide ho
393 Seb146 : Did I say the vets are socialist? When did I say that? What I actually said is the VA itself is socialist and government controlled and run. It is el
394 Max550 : I read the blog quickly and I was mistaken about whether they were referring to a House or Senate bill. Thanks for the correction (if that was a corr
395 EA772LR : Oh give me a break. Jesus was neither conservative or liberal. He was compassionate but not a hippie holding up peace signs. He despised stupidity, i
396 DXing : Yet you conveniently leave out the Senators statement: H.R. 3200 and the one Senate version Senator Isakson worked on would mandate these end of life
397 Max550 : It's a mandate of what would be covered in the counseling sessions and how often they can occur, not a mandate that you get a counseling session. It
398 DXing : Incorrect, it is mandated that you will receive the counsuling every five years. pages 424-425 20 ‘‘Advance Care Planning Consultation 21 ‘‘(
399 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : So, you did not read the entire 12th amendment? BTW, I never said the POYUS/VPOTUS were directly elected by the voters. That is an excellent question
400 Yellowstone : So Jesus was kidding when he said "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" and "If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to hi
401 Post contains links Max550 : No, it adds coverage for end-of life counseling to the Social Security Act. The five year counseling is a limitation on how often it is covered, not
402 Post contains links DXing : Incorrect. H.R.3200 or whatever the health care bill ends up being called will be stand alone legislation. The parts you refer to are to ammend the S
403 Dvk : Exactly! It's the same thing as Medicare covering annual mammograms and a screening colonoscopy every ten years. It doesn't mandate that anyone EVER
404 Max550 : What parts I refer to? I was referring to the same part you were: It amends the SS Act. Open the SS Act that I linked for you, go to the bottom, find
405 DXing : It amends the SS act to reflect the new law that will be whatever HR 3200 becomes. I fail to understand how you can discount a whole new bill that wi
406 Dvk : No, you are misinterpreting this. Nothing you have quoted has said that such a consultation is mandatory. Kathleen Parker's point is that, while the
407 Max550 : I'm not discounting it, we're talking about a part of the new bill that amends the SS Act to make it the law that end-of-life consultations are cover
408 Yellowstone : Which doesn't change the fact that new law, quite often, consists entirely of amendments to old laws. If you want to make a change in Medicare, for i
409 DXing : pages 424-425 20 ‘‘Advance Care Planning Consultation 21 ‘‘(hhh)(1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the 22 term ‘advance care planning c
410 Yellowstone : Reading comprehension's clearly not your thing, DX, although I'll admit the lawmakers don't make it easy. "A consultation shall include the following
411 DXing : It would if it were required that it be read to you every 5 years which is what the bill says. Means=requirement.
412 Max550 : No, it's defining what the term "advance care planning consultation" means. Go through the rest of the SS Act, every section begins with a definition
413 Yellowstone : Oxford English Dictionary: Nothing to do with requirement. And just because the law defines something does not mean that everyone has to use it.
414 DXing : Again, this will be a new law. It is not part and parcel with the SS act anymore than it is part and pacel with the Medicare or Medicaid act. When yo
415 Yellowstone : What part of "Section 1861 of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1395x) is amended" are you having trouble understanding? This portion of the bill is
416 Max550 : It is a new law, a law that amends the SS Act. That's why it starts off with: "(1) IN GENERAL- Section 1861 of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 139
417 Dvk : And I don't see how you can keep pulling up that same section and insist it mandates the counseling when it does nothing of the kind. It neither stat
418 DXing : They do both. It is new law and it edits old law so there is no conflict between the two. Almost all new laws do that. and then it goes on to the new
419 Yellowstone : But not this part of the law. If it were doing what you suggest, there should be one part of the bill that writes the new law regarding the requireme
420 DXing : Yes it is. The section contains the addendums to the SS act and then describes the new law. It starts with "In General" and describes the changes to
421 Dvk : It's very clear that the counseling is not mandatory, but if a statement saying specifically that "end-of-life counseling is recommended, but not req
422 DXing : Yep, this is why we take the liberals seriously. Of course the other section of the bill which gives the new Health Commisioner, who doesn't work for
423 Yellowstone : The tabbing in the bill is a bit confusing, and I can see how you might misinterpret it, since the texts of amendments to other laws are tabbed separ
424 Seb146 : Yes. Where are they? Oh, that's right. They are part of Bushs' "War On Terror" and are, therefore, top secret and are not allowed to be viewed by the
425 Dvk : And don't forget that we evil liberals all lack personal responsibility, never study an issue in depth or understand it, don't love America, don't wo
426 DXing : I see clearly how you have misinterpeted it. Again, the addendums are always there to make the new and old laws sync. The new law will require you to
427 Max550 : There is no old or new law, it's a piece of a law which adds to an existing law. Within that law there is nothing about requiring end of life counsel
428 DXing : Incorrect. This is not an addition to the SS act or Medicare or Medicaid. As it is written now, it is totally new legislation creating the "Health Ch
429 Yellowstone : One more time. I showed you in post 423 that the language in HR 3200 beginning "Advance Care Planning Consultation," line 20 page 424 through line 17
430 Dvk : But they at least tried, even though they failed miserably before they could even bring a bill to committee. At least they TRIED. Something the Repub
431 DXing : Because the sync with the old law runs from line 6 page 424 to line 19 page 424. Those lines contain the addendums to the SS act. I did not say that
432 Ken777 : Nothing, which is why it is so queer that Cheney & Rumsfeld were not fighting to avoid a war there. But then there is a lot about Cheney & Rummy that
433 DXing : Agreed but there it is in the HR 3200. After going through the same thing I agree. The difference being it was because my father wanted to, not becau
434 Yellowstone : Then explain to me the syntax in lines 7, 8, 18, and 19, page 424: Clearly, the text that immediately follows this part (that is, lines 20 and onward
435 MSNDC9 : For the love of God! 1. Deregulate the health insurance industry. It is insane that there are 1,300 health insurance companies in this country that ca
436 Cws818 : Berkeley, UCLA, Univ. of Virginia, etc. must be amused by your analysis.
437 Max550 : It will be. The bill says nothing about it being a mandate. I think you've done a very good job of answering the question posed in the thread title.
438 Post contains links DXing : Lines 1-17 show single word changes. From 18 pg to line 17 pg 430 the SS act subsection 1861 will be changed to mirror the new law which,at this time
439 KC135TopBoom : When you amend and exsisting law as a result of a new law, then the amendment is really part of the new law, as the older law would not have changed
440 Post contains links Yellowstone : So at least you admit that page 424 line 20 to page 430 line 17 is the text of a change to Section 1861 of the Social Security Act. Good. Now, you cl
441 Max550 : So instead of "such consultation shall include the following" you would like it to say "such consultation may include the following" or something lik
442 FlyPNS1 : Even if it was mandatory (which it's not), there's no way to enforce the mandate. There's no rule/regulation that says what the penalties would be if
443 Seb146 : So, one question I have for those still thinking there are "death panels" on the horizon: When your doctor says "I see you have not had XYZ test in a
444 DXing : Never said differently because after line 17 it is all new law therefore the SS act has to be amended to reflect the new law. Since it isnew law it w
445 MSNDC9 : Compared to Harvard and Yale....
446 Mt99 : Should only people that can afford - or qualify - Harvard or Yale be the only ones allowed to go to school? My mail gets here. Unceremoniously and ta
447 Dvk : Absolutely not true. You can drag up every obscure line of the proposal you want and twist and turn it as you will, but it doesn't say anywhere that
448 KC135TopBoom : I gree with you there. Thank God he is gone, at least for a while.
449 AGM100 : I wish this was my idea , but alas . A suggestion today I heard was to propose another option to help the poor obtain health care. Wrap there care int
450 Dvk : It probably wouldn't work to put everyone into the same system because of the unique needs of the veterans, but having a similar, parallel system for
451 FlyPNS1 : I don't oppose putting in a line to say it is voluntary. However, I do oppose people blatantly lying saying that it is mandatory when there is no suc
452 Yellowstone : You keep saying that the amendment is there so that the SSA will mirror or reflect the AAHCA. "Mirror," at least as I understand it, implies that the
453 Max550 : If they really want to insert an amendment that makes it more clear I would be fine with that, but there's no need to because it appears under Title
454 AGM100 : Hey health-care is health-care .... I mean whats so special about veterans ? I mean they are just citizens like us ? Do we have to have different lev
455 Dvk : The VA system is already struggling mightily to deal with the large number of veterans of Iraq/Afghanistan with devastating traumatic brain injuries
456 AGM100 : Why I wonder .... Why would a system of government ran health care be struggling ? What is the cause of that disgrace .
457 FlyPNS1 : Because many in Congress like to start wars, but are unwilling to pay the price for the aftermath.
458 AGM100 : So a federally operated health-care system ... one that would naturally have to plan for large numbers of casualties in war time is failing ? Seems t
459 Dvk : The easy and tragic answer is that they had no idea how many casualties with usually fatal injuries would survive because of major advances in combat
460 AGM100 : So far in Iraq there has been something like 30K + casualties of all types ..from hangnails to hard combat wounds over a 8 year period. We are faced
461 EA772LR : Possibly...or could it be that THE GOVERNMENT IN ITSELF IS A HIGHLY INEFFICIENT ORGANIZATION, and has no business running health care at all?? For go
462 Dvk : The failure of the VA to adequately handle the Iraq/Afghanistan casualties can be blamed more on the Department of Defense than anything or anyone el
463 Yellowstone : You're forgetting the millions of veterans in the US who also get their health care from the VA. And it's also a bad idea to lump in seriously injure
464 Post contains links PPVRA : http://www.sbecouncil.org/uploads/SB...%20SBSI-Health%5B1%5D%202-3-09.pdf According to the study above, the top 10 most expensive health insurance sta
465 Yellowstone : And the passage in the law that proves you wrong, from Title XVIII, Section 1801, Social Security Act (the title where the language on page 424 line
466 FlyPNS1 : You do realize the VA treats veterans all the way back to those who fought in World War II? I guess you would rather Veterans not get treated at all
467 PPVRA : They also have customers to satisfy. Without this, they can forget satisfying shareholders. That includes their own jobs too, unlike many government
468 AverageUser : You accidentally got the order reversed: it's the shareholders first, then the customers, if any.
469 AGM100 : Not needed ... some fixes are needed .. but not a sweeping total take over . This administration is like hiring a inexperienced CEO for to run your c
470 Dvk : Don't twist my words into something I didn't say. I said sweeping REFORM, not takeover. There is a huge difference. It seems now that your initial, a
471 Post contains links and images Dreadnought : It's becoming apparent that the supporters of this bill are showing the height of hypocracy. They have been accusing the GOP of busing in "mobs" at th
472 Ipodguy7 : why fix it if it ain't broke? Norhings wrong with the current system
473 DXing : Start with sec 102 page 17 EMPLOYMENT 9 BASED HEALTH PLANS.%u2014 10 (1) GRACE PERIOD.%u2014 11 (A) IN GENERAL.%u2014The Commissioner 12 shall establ
474 Dvk : You completely failed to understand what the poster meant, and immediately fell back to your kneejerk and insulting accusation that he lacked persona
475 Post contains links AverageUser : TRUTH: The payroll penalty applies to employers with payroll over $500,000 who do not provide insurance to their employees. The percentage for employ
476 AGM100 : It was indeed. Because in the end that is exactly what is going to happen. A health system ,(VA) along with medicare and Medicaid already exists . Bu
477 Ken777 : Since we continually hear or read that a large percentage of the homeless are vets maybe we can just start there. And as funding increases on the VA
478 KC135TopBoom : So, when the Dems used scare tactics, a few years ago against the SS sytem improvements and assured funding through 2055, that was alright? There is
479 AGM100 : I have been there with them . I have sat with them , talked with them , smoked with them , and bitched with them. I saw government ran health-care at
480 Ken777 : As I recall, Bush/Cheney wanted a "private option" that would allow workers to invest some of their Social Security dollars in the stock market. That
481 Post contains links DXing : Hmmm....what part did I fail to understand? If he is allergic to ibuprofin seems to me that would fit on a med tag. Perhaps there's a new business fo
482 Yellowstone : You'll find that those sections give certain words more specific meanings, not new meanings. Take this example from HR 3200: The term "cost-sharing"
483 Seb146 : Yet, Cindy Sheehan and those at Camp Casey at Crawford, TX and all those protesting the war in Iraq that Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld, et al. wanted
484 DXing : Because the Secretary of HHS as described elsewhere will tell you what it is when they finalize the details after the bill is passed. Which leads too
485 Yellowstone : I'd still like you to give me an example of where this has occurred regarding another law.
486 DXing : As I said earlier, look at the mission creep the EPA has had over the years. How many times has the law that gave birth to it been changed?
487 Ken777 : Does it really matter? There was a Republican politician (Senator IIRC) who was talking about a very good friend who owned an auto dealership. The fr
488 StasisLAX : She does have insurance - Blue Shield HMO of California via COBRA - the California Extended version of it because her Federal COBRA provisions expire
489 DXing : More like the other way around, the government screwing the insurance companies and we will all end up getting less and paying more in the end. I hat
490 Yellowstone : Ah, but that's a change in the law, and was subject to public debate followed by a vote--not what you are saying would happen with HR3200, where you
491 DXing : It is? That was my question, how many times has the law been changed? I don't really know. Not what I am saying, but it is what HR 3200 says. What pa
492 Yellowstone : Last time on this. The United States Code is not merely a compilation of all the bills ever passed by Congress. Think of the USC as the Big Encyclope
493 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : No, DXing is absolutly correct. Under the government single payer system, beaurocrats will determine the estimated costs and types of health care giv
494 Seb146 : Have you tried living in Los Angeles, San Francisco, New York City, or Boston on $1200 a month? My SO is going through this exact thing right now wit
495 Mt99 : This is my first attempt at dissecting a bill.. so lets do this slowly.. Section 2541 states: "(1) agrees to be subject in its capacity as an employe
496 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : You may not know about this, but he should have no problem getting commerical health insurance through a potential empolyeer. Her is a link to the HI
497 Mt99 : Are you advocating skipping out on medical bills?
498 Ken777 : Insurance companies are in the driver's seat right now and are sucking in the profits big time. As the owner of a one man company I paid out the ass
499 DXing : And which you have ass backwards. Why would it behoove the Congress to write any new laws if the old law would just supercede it? Not at all. I have
500 KSYR : 30,000? Try many times that. Military healthcare (not VA) is excellent; great facilities, excellent physicians and low wait times. But, like you said
501 Post contains links KC135TopBoom : Oh yeah, Bush always stack his press conferences with Bush supporters only. Which Bush supporter locked the doors so he couldn't leave at a conferenc
502 Yellowstone : I'm not saying the old law supercedes the new law, but if the new law modifies the old law, the unmodified parts of the old law are still in effect.
503 Ken777 : I'd rather see the government in the driver's seat, with private insurance providing Gap coverage - like we see with Medicare today. That way we can
504 DXing : I give, it's become completely pointless and appears now to be a complete waste of time. As the old line goes, some men you just can't reach. The sur
505 Seb146 : It still dings your credit. It showed up on my credit until I paid it off. I got all kinds of legal notices and phone calls until I paid. I guess I a
506 Max550 : Bernie Sanders was never a Republican, he's a democratic socialist but appears as an independent on the ballot. You must be thinking of the guy he re
507 Ken777 : One of our insurance cost problems. Minimum wage jobs rarely include insurance, so these people get on Medicaid - thank you very much to those contri
508 Dvk : This isn't really accurate. Most people with minimum wage jobs do not qualify for Medicaid. If they did, with a sliding scale premium based on income
509 Ken777 : Really makes you proud, doesn't it? And that is why I am a strong believer in government intervention. Health insurance companies have been given a h
510 Post contains links Toulouse : Hello all, This thread has no reached in excess of 500 posts. For those of you interested in continuing to discuss this topic, I have created a "Part
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