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UK Criticises Israel Over Settlers  
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7687 posts, RR: 21
Posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2209 times:
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.......and quite rightly so. Evicting Palestinians from homes occupied for over fifty years to allow settlers in is an utter disgrace. It certainly does seem to clearly indicate that any talk of serious efforts for peace are truly hollow.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...rld/middle_east/article6736473.ece


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26787 posts, RR: 58
Reply 1, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2203 times:

The UK government can be as angry as it wants , they cant do anything. In the mean time the Palestinians suffer as usual.

Israeli settlers burn olive groves in ‘price tag’ retaliation attack

Israeli settlers on horseback set fire to fields of olive trees and stoned Palestinian cars in the West Bank yesterday, apparently in response to the Israeli army’s removal of an illegal outpost in the area.

At least 1,500 Palestinian-owned trees were destroyed and two Palestinians were injured in the attack, near the city of Nablus, by about 30 settlers, security officials said. Farmers fought fires late into the afternoon, as fears grew that the flames would spread across the dry summer fields.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...rld/middle_east/article6721173.ece


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8021 posts, RR: 26
Reply 2, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2138 times:

The US State Dept. has now officially condemned the East Jerusalem evictions that happened over the weekend. Israel's hard-right thinks the opinion of the international community doesn't matter - they're in for a rude awakening.


If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineJM017 From Jamaica, joined Jun 2002, 1227 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2120 times:

If the government of Israel continues on this course, they will lose whatever support they have had over the years. And if the Israeli government continues to pander to their conservative elements, they will pay a steep price.

I find that my support for Israel has diminished considerably recently.



"It's okay to cheat, if you just really don't like to lose."
User currently offlineDirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1649 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2066 times:

Although I try to look at this subject objectively, I can't see how Israel can continue to muster support abroad for its actions regarding Palestinians. Yes, Palestinians have also erred in the past but it is clear who has the upper hand in this.
Throughout history, there have been numerous examples of powerful ruling governmets exercising unfair power over large minorities (and majorities, even). In the 20th century alone, segregation and institutional racism came to an end in the US, and in the '90s apartheid ended in South Africa. Yet somehow Israel can project itself as democratic and progressive and at the same time get away with this.
What the Israeli government should do is review this case again, and reinstate the original owners.


User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2413 posts, RR: 23
Reply 5, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2041 times:
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Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
Evicting Palestinians from homes occupied for over fifty years

I would suggest a look back in history might provide some useful information in forming an educated opinion.
In May 1947 A Representitive of the Arab Higher Committe to the United Nations submitted a statement to the General Assembly that said "Palestine was part of the Province of Syria" and "politically, the Arabs of Palestine were not independent in the sense of forming a seperate political entity."
Ahmed Shuqeiri (who was later to become Chairman of the PLO) told the UN security Council "It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria."

Palestinian nationalism as we now know it became a major movement only after the Arab defeat in the Arab-initiated Six Day War of 1967.
Many Jewish settlers hate, despise, and fear the Palestinians.
Some have committed outrages against the Palestinians, such as stealing their olive crops, intimidating them while they work in their fields,and shooting them. In addition, the existence of Jewish Settlements under siege has necessitated an unwelcome Israeli army presence.
Israel and the Palestinians (who represent the ENTIRE Islamic world) are at war.
War is UGLY. People starve. They loose their homes,jobs and health. People are killed and wounded.

And, don't forget---it was King Hussein of Jordan, who in 1970 got so sick of Palestinian terrorists within his territory that he had his army massacre thousands of them and drove the Palestinians off of his land completely, as many other Arab leaders had done before.

The Palestinians keep citing the settlements as an obstacle to peace, but when Arafat first began his terrorist attacks on Israel in 1964, the ENTIRE West Bank, Gaza and Old City of Jerusalem were under Arab control.
Yet, Arafat and other Islamic terrorists STILL attacked Israel! Duh!
That is especially true of Hammas and the other terrorist groups whose SOLE OBJECTIVE is the ELIMINATION of a Jewish State anywhere in the Middle East.

Long before any Jews lived on the West Bank, the Arabs refused to make peace with Israel. Until 1977, only a few West Bank settlements had been created but no peace was offered by the Arabs. In 1978 Israel signed a peace treaty with Egypt, despite the fact that there were many settlements in the Sinai (which were removed as part of the treaty).
In 1979, one year after the peace with Egypt, Israel stopped building settlemets in the HOPE that other Arab nations would join the Camp David peace process, but NONE did so.

In 1994, Jordan also signed a peace treaty with Israel and the settlements were not an issure even though they were growing. The rapid growth of settlements in the 1990's had no impact on the Palestinians' decision to join the Oslo accords in 1993 and 1995.

There are many Israelis and others who have valid criticisms of the settlements.
Some consider them to be a moral and public relations nightmare for Israel.
Others view the settlers as a fisrt line of defense for Israel proper, and a necessary military position to repel terrorist attacks.

IMO the real obsticle to peace is the Palestinians' inability to accept a state next to Israel rather than on top of it.
Furthur plaming the settlements is only an excuse to continue terrorism rather than make any real peace efforts.

As stated by a prominebt scholar, "If settlement building is now concentrated in areas that Palestinians themselves acknowledge will remain part of Israel in any future peace agreement----them why the obsessive focus on settlements as an "obstacle to peace"?

So I don't know what the answer is. It just appears to me that the settlements continue to be a defense mechanism as far as many Israelis are concerned. And the powerful petro-funded Palestinian propaganda machine continues to roll. Its all about them, after all.

 twocents 



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2018 times:



Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 5):
In 1994, Jordan also signed a peace treaty with Israel and the settlements were not an issure even though they were growing. The rapid growth of settlements in the 1990's had no impact on the Palestinians' decision to join the Oslo accords in 1993 and 1995.

You don't think that this might cover the matter??

Recognizing that the above human problems caused by the conflict in the Middle East cannot be fully resolved on the bilateral level, the Parties will seek to resolve them in appropriate forums, in accordance with international law, including the following:

* in the case of displaced persons, in a quadripartite committee together with Egypt and the Palestinians:
1. in the case of refugees,
2. in the framework of the Multilateral Working Group on Refugees;
* in negotiations, in a framework to be agreed, bilateral or otherwise, in conjunction with and at the same time as the permanent status negotiations pertaining to the territories referred to in Article 3 of this Treaty;
* through the implementation of agreed United Nations programs and other agreed international economic programs concerning refugees and displaced persons, including assistance to their settlement.


I guess that covers burning olive groves, must be approved by the quadripartite committee I spose?


User currently offlineDirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1649 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1969 times:



Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 5):
I would suggest a look back in history might provide some useful information in forming an educated opinion.
In May 1947 A Representitive of the Arab Higher Committe to the United Nations submitted a statement to the General Assembly that said "Palestine was part of the Province of Syria" and "politically, the Arabs of Palestine were not independent in the sense of forming a seperate political entity."
Ahmed Shuqeiri (who was later to become Chairman of the PLO) told the UN security Council "It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria."

Historicaly, everything east of Sinai right up to Alexandretta (Hatay) was called Ottoman Syria, subdivided into seperate divisions. What is now Palestine was in the Jerusalem Division. Although in close proximity to Damascus (adminstrative capital of Ottoman Syria) this region of the world is surprisingly multi-layered with so many 'nationalities', mainly because of Anglo-French ventures in the region to carve out various protectorates and mandates for themselves. As a result, the spark of self-determination grew brighter and henceSyria itself is really a conglomerate of several countries. Notably, Lebanon managed to break away and establish itself as a nation-state.
So-although similar-Palestine was not quite Syria since Syria itself was-and is-a great collection of subdivisions, mainly as a result of the post WWI reorganization.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 5):
Palestinian nationalism as we now know it became a major movement only after the Arab defeat in the Arab-initiated Six Day War of 1967.

It is true-and what surprises me the most is that between 1914 and 1948 no tangible Palestinian national identity emerged, in accordance with the principles of self-determination, in line with so many examples around the world. The failure to create an Arabizm, if you may, to counter Zionism (or even co-exist) has haunted everyone ever since.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 5):
The Palestinians keep citing the settlements as an obstacle to peace, but when Arafat first began his terrorist attacks on Israel in 1964, the ENTIRE West Bank, Gaza and Old City of Jerusalem were under Arab control.
Yet, Arafat and other Islamic terrorists STILL attacked Israel! Duh!
That is especially true of Hammas and the other terrorist groups whose SOLE OBJECTIVE is the ELIMINATION of a Jewish State anywhere in the Middle East.

With the benefit of hindsight, what they did was extremely foolish. Between 1948 and 1967 what the Palestinians want now as the framework for their state was in 'friendly Arab' hands. Life would have been much better had the Arab states come to terms with Israel around that period. Alas-they did not.


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8021 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1947 times:



Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 5):
It just appears to me that the settlements continue to be a defense mechanism as far as many Israelis are concerned.

Politically, they are a mechanism for sustaining majorities in a population that is no longer majority enough for the powers at be to retain their power long-term. This is about power, regardless of what the Israeli on the street feels is or isn't defense.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineAlexEU From Serbia, joined Oct 2007, 1817 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1900 times:

Critizising is not going to help Palestinians nor is it going to stop the Israelis.

UK and USA are still supporting Israel, even though the media tries to present it the other way. Sanctions for Iran and North Korea but not for Israel??!!


User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 10, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1840 times:

Typical - the Israelis carry on burning, stealing and evicting, whilst the Palestinians keep dying.

And nothing but bluster from the Government.

I boycotted Israeli goods months ago - more people should do the same. Its not an anti-semitism thing, its an anti human rights violations and anti war/peace crimes against the Palestinians thing.

The US's support means they can do whatever they want to do without having to account for their actions, and they are so arrogant that they think they can do as they wish and that the world owes it to them.

Its wrong.  Sad



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1827 times:



Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 10):
Its not an anti-semitism thing, its an anti human rights violations and anti war/peace crimes against the Palestinians thing.

Yeah, singling out the world's only Jewish state for human rights violations, and ignoring the complete lack of human rights in the Arab world...that sounds right (and logical and completely un-prejudiced) to me!!!


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8021 posts, RR: 26
Reply 12, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1819 times:



Quoting RJpieces (Reply 11):
Yeah, singling out the world's only Jewish state for human rights violations, and ignoring the complete lack of human rights in the Arab world...that sounds right (and logical and completely un-prejudiced) to me!!!

How many times does it need repeating - a self-declared Jewish state, as a modern, Western-modeled democracy, should not be violating human rights, period. Just as we get pissed when our own governments ridicule our values and flags when doing so, we should be pissed when Israel does it as well. Defense is no excuse - you either believe in something and think it's worth fighting right for or you don't.

Don't trot out that tired line of equivalency with the horrors of life under fundamentalist Sharia regimes - nobody denies the commonplace lack of dignity there.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 13, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1809 times:



Quoting RJpieces (Reply 11):
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 10):
Its not an anti-semitism thing, its an anti human rights violations and anti war/peace crimes against the Palestinians thing.

Yeah, singling out the world's only Jewish state for human rights violations, and ignoring the complete lack of human rights in the Arab world...that sounds right (and logical and completely un-prejudiced) to me!!!

No - its Palestinians vs Israel - nobody is mentioning Iran or Saudi Arabia. They are also reprehensible regimes that are living in the dark ages, but they are not the issue.

The issue in hand is the murder, upheaval and mistreatment of the Palestinians by Israel.

Its wrong. Nothing you can say to me can convince me otherwise - they are taking what does not belong to them, burning crops, imprisoning civilians and killing people. Its wrong.

Not saying the Iranian Government or the Saudi Muttawa are any better, but they arent the issue.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 12):

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 11):
Yeah, singling out the world's only Jewish state for human rights violations, and ignoring the complete lack of human rights in the Arab world...that sounds right (and logical and completely un-prejudiced) to me!!!

How many times does it need repeating - a self-declared Jewish state, as a modern, Western-modeled democracy, should not be violating human rights, period. Just as we get pissed when our own governments ridicule our values and flags when doing so, we should be pissed when Israel does it as well. Defense is no excuse - you either believe in something and think it's worth fighting right for or you don't.

My sentiments precisely. I hate the way Israel is somehow above criticism - if you think they are wrong or out of order about something, then you are an anti-semite. Saying Israel is wrong for stealing land that does not belong to them does not make me a Nazi, but in some people's mind it does. How ironic that the main affliction for both the Jewish and Islamic worlds is the same thing after all is said and done - a lack of moderate people willing to consider other views and the standpoints of others.

To be honest - i dont care who you are, jew, muslim, buddhist, sikh, catholic, protestant, orthodox, taoist whatever - you are onto a loser the moment you start thinking you are right and other people are wrong. Its the thinking you are somehow "more" than others that causes the problems.

In this case it is jews thinking they are right, and that they have the right to do as they please because the people they are forcilbly taking land from are muslims.

In this era of fundamentalism and thinking you are more right than anyone else, it is a lack of moderation and consideration that is the issue.

If we all were a little more moderate in our views and a little more considerate, we'd all be better off.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 12):
Don't trot out that tired line of equivalency with the horrors of life under fundamentalist Sharia regimes - nobody denies the commonplace lack of dignity there.

Yep agreed. But they arent the issue here.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7687 posts, RR: 21
Reply 14, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1802 times:
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Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 12):
How many times does it need repeating - a self-declared Jewish state, as a modern, Western-modeled democracy, should not be violating human rights, period. Just as we get pissed when our own governments ridicule our values and flags when doing so, we should be pissed when Israel does it as well. Defense is no excuse - you either believe in something and think it's worth fighting right for or you don't.

Don't trot out that tired line of equivalency with the horrors of life under fundamentalist Sharia regimes - nobody denies the commonplace lack of dignity there.

Very well put indeed. Can't justify one wrong with another anyway. It is no defence.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 15, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1801 times:



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 12):
under fundamentalist Sharia regimes - nobody denies the commonplace lack of dignity there

And given their druthers, there are not too many Muslims who want to live under Sharia. My guess would be less than 20% and in most places less than 10%. In Indonesia it seems to be less than about 2%. The inability of the populations of most Islamic countries to get the governments they would like is the other half of the Palestinian - Israel quarrel.

Pity that nobody asks in any of these surveys a question like:

"Would you like your human rights restricted?"

And yet Rj carries on as if this would be met with acclamation.

And who is seen to be supporting these dictatorial governments? And who is opposing them. Well, of course OBL leads the parade in the opposition stakes. How "unfortunate"!!! Or plain bloody negligent??


User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21422 posts, RR: 56
Reply 16, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1774 times:



Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 5):
As stated by a prominebt scholar, "If settlement building is now concentrated in areas that Palestinians themselves acknowledge will remain part of Israel in any future peace agreement----them why the obsessive focus on settlements as an "obstacle to peace"?

The settlements in question are inside Palestine, and will only remain part of Israel because the settlements are already there, and the Palestinians agree that forcing the residents of those settlements to move would be wrong. The problem arises when Israel tries to expand those settlements at the expense of Palestinian homes, or tries to create new ones, especially when Palestinian homes are bulldozed to make room for them. That's viewed by Palestinians as a land grab, and it's not hard to see where they're coming from.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 12):
Don't trot out that tired line of equivalency with the horrors of life under fundamentalist Sharia regimes - nobody denies the commonplace lack of dignity there.

 checkmark  Israel is supposed to be a first world country, arguably the only one in the region. Calling them out when they don't act like it hardly makes one anti-Semitic, nor does it mean that one is ignoring the many problems that other countries have.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineJfk69 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1394 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1767 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
The settlements in question are inside Palestine, and will only remain part of Israel because the settlements are already there, and the Palestinians agree that forcing the residents of those settlements to move would be wrong

I am not really in agreement here. I still believe the Palestinians want it back to the 67 borders. I don''t think they would really care about evicting the Israeli's from the settlements. I didn't really see any opposition from the Palestinians when the Israeli's left Gaza.


User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21422 posts, RR: 56
Reply 18, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1751 times:



Quoting Jfk69 (Reply 17):
I still believe the Palestinians want it back to the 67 borders. I don''t think they would really care about evicting the Israeli's from the settlements.

I think they would prefer evicting Israel from the settlements, but that's obviously going to be very difficult to achieve, so they're ok with leaving them be so long as there is no more expansion of them.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
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