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Russian Subs Position Off US Coast ..  
User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 17
Posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5121 times:

Interesting event I guess , first time in 15 years Russian Submarines patrol off US Coast line. According to the article the subs are Akula class attack subs not boomers ,so it is a little less of a threat it seems .

I don't feel that it is all that provocative ... maybe it is ?. I would certainly hope that the Navy tracked em there and was trailing them .

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/05/world/05patrol.html?_r=1

A worry of mine however ,.. is that our Military becomes so focused on fighting guerrilla insurgents and pirates that we let our guard down. Is our navy now more focused on missile threats and sea to land attack then they are Submarine hunting like in the Cold War? I have no knowledge of it .. just curious . I also read the other day that the Navy had grounded a good portion of our P-3C fleet for spar cracks and that it was going to be a while until they were back on line.


You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
86 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21854 posts, RR: 55
Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5098 times:



Quoting AGM100 (Thread starter):
A worry of mine however ,.. is that our Military becomes so focused on fighting guerrilla insurgents and pirates that we let our guard down.

I don't know if I'd say we let our guard down, since we knew that the subs were there.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5101 times:

I view it as an excellent opportunity for an ASW exercise. We can save on fuel.


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineMichlis From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 737 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5064 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
I don't know if I'd say we let our guard down, since we knew that the subs were there.

Even the Russians acknowledge the presence of the subs.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 2):
I view it as an excellent opportunity for an ASW exercise. We can save on fuel.

There you go. Give those P-3s a work out and possible live tests for the P-8 to help develop the electronics!



If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles.
User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5026 times:

Two Akula's 200nm off the East Coast is not exactly the next Cuban Missile Crisis; USN LA Improved are superior in technology and crew quality (due to training) and the USN Seawolf and Virginia class subs have since then relegated everything else under the seas wholly inferior.

Interesting, but not frightening.


User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 7625 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4993 times:



Quoting AGM100 (Thread starter):
Interesting event I guess , first time in 15 years Russian Submarines patrol off US Coast line

I have no sources but I would question that 15 year gap. Apparently these subs have also been seen on the surface, they are nuke boats, so whats with coming up for air?
This is probably another publicity stunt, if a normal aptrol they ceratinley would not be that close to be called a pair and the US Navy would not be saying anything. The US Navy has patrols by China, Russia and other areas, no fuss there, figure the Russians do the same.

As for practising ASW, the US Navy has been "reshaping" its capabilities since the end of the Cold War, on paper they are fine, wwhy test them?


User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4966 times:

Quoting Michlis (Reply 3):
Give those P-3s a work out


The P3's have all but been pulled from the eastcoast.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 2):
I view it as an excellent opportunity for an ASW exercise

Yea...? Just how....?? They have closed all of the military bases in the northeast......

[Edited 2009-08-05 18:02:56]


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineStasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3287 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 4944 times:



Quoting Par13del (Reply 5):
I have no sources but I would question that 15 year gap. Apparently these subs have also been seen on the surface, they are nuke boats, so whats with coming up for air?

According to CNN News:

"Two nuclear-powered submarines have stayed in international waters. The U.S. miltary is monitoring these subs but recognizes right to "freedom of navigation". Russia hasn't been able to send subs so far afield for years, military official says

The Akula-class nuclear-powered submarines, which are normally equipped with surface-loaded cruise missiles and surface-to-air missiles, have stayed in international waters, the source said. These are not the class of submarines that can launch intercontinental nuclear missiles."

Source: http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/08/05/rus...ines/index.html?section=cnn_latest

I'm thinking that the "RESET" button that the Obama Administration gave to Comrade Putin had no positive effect.  crazy 



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineBEG2IAH From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 980 posts, RR: 18
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 4937 times:
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How many US subs are off Russian coast? I would guess at least one, so what's the big deal in having Russian subs in international waters?

BEG2IAH



FAA killed the purpose of my old signature: Use of approved electronic devices is now permitted.
User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10227 posts, RR: 97
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4843 times:
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Quoting Lumberton (Reply 2):
I view it as an excellent opportunity for an ASW exercise. We can save on fuel.

Not that this matters much to an SSN....  Wink

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 4):
the USN Seawolf and Virginia class subs have since then relegated everything else under the seas wholly inferior.

I know for a fact this isn't true..  no 

But at least we're on the same side...  Smile

Rgds


User currently offlineMichlis From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 737 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4747 times:



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 6):
The P3's have all but been pulled from the eastcoast.

There are still a few around. They occassionally do touch and goes at Pease in New Hampshire.



If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles.
User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4740 times:

What's the big deal?

The American public has an irrational sense of entitlement when it comes to security of its borders.

If they only knew how many assets we have near, on, or beyond the borders of nations we consider enemies... it would make these two Ruskie subs off the coast look like a joke! Hell, off the top of my head, I can think of at least 5 borders of hostile nations, that I've flown along... sometimes purposely doing so in an aggressive manner.

It's the nature of the business. This is what we do. It's hardly newsworthy.

[Edited 2009-08-06 04:29:07]

User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4728 times:



Quoting Astuteman (Reply 9):
Not that this matters much to an SSN.

We also use surface ships and planes you know....  duck 

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 6):
Yea...? Just how....?? They have closed all of the military bases in the northeast..

Umm...I'm getting old but I seem to recall that ships and planes, even SSNs (!), can travel some distance.  Wink



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineMichlis From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 737 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4719 times:



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 11):
What's the big deal?

The American public has an irrational sense of entitlement when it comes to security of its borders.

If they only knew how many assets we have near, on, or beyond the borders of nations we consider enemies... it would make these two Ruskie subs off the coast look like a joke! Hell, off the top of my head, I can think of at least 5 borders of hostile nations, that I've flown along... sometimes purposely doing so in an aggressive manner.

It's the nature of the business. This is what we do. It's hardly newsworthy.

Very nicely put.  bigthumbsup 



If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4704 times:

I wish they would revisit the decision to close Brunswick NAS, no more ASW aircraft in Iceland, New England or even the Mid-Atlantic. They're all down in Jacksonville FL.


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8760 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4673 times:

Wait a minute, you mean Russia has nuclear subs that go global? News flash indeed! How stupid are people?  Big grin

Item #697 of when we do things, it is considered normal, but when they do it to us, it is considered harassment. Personally Id much rather have Russians patrolling there than some other countries.


User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 17
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4659 times:



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 11):
It's the nature of the business. This is what we do. It's hardly newsworthy.

OK Already geez 60 , I thought it was kind of a cool thread to start . Man its a tough crowd on here ! Big grin

I don't think its a big deal either , but its not everyday us civilian hear about Nuke subs patrolling off our coast. Man am I stupid ..



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offlineHaveBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2124 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4579 times:



Quoting Michlis (Reply 10):
Quoting EMBQA (Reply 6):
The P3's have all but been pulled from the eastcoast.

There are still a few around. They occassionally do touch and goes at Pease in New Hampshire

The P-3's are still at Jacksonville NAS, or at least I still saw them flying around there last week.



Here Here for Severe Clear!
User currently offlineBEG2IAH From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 980 posts, RR: 18
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4565 times:
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Quoting AGM100 (Reply 16):

OK Already geez 60 , I thought it was kind of a cool thread to start . Man its a tough crowd on here !

We'll blame it on NY Times, no worries.  Smile

BEG2IAH



FAA killed the purpose of my old signature: Use of approved electronic devices is now permitted.
User currently offlineNomadd22 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1899 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4481 times:



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 11):
What's the big deal?

The American public has an irrational sense of entitlement when it comes to security of its borders.

If they only knew how many assets we have near, on, or beyond the borders of nations we consider enemies... it would make these two Ruskie subs off the coast look like a joke! Hell, off the top of my head, I can think of at least 5 borders of hostile nations, that I've flown along... sometimes purposely doing so in an aggressive manner.

It's the nature of the business. This is what we do. It's hardly newsworthy.

You been delegated to speak for the American public now? Save your self righteous superior Bravo Sierra for the Bar.



Andy Goetsch
User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4475 times:



Quoting Astuteman (Reply 9):
Quoting AirRyan (Reply 4):
the USN Seawolf and Virginia class subs have since then relegated everything else under the seas wholly inferior.

I know for a fact this isn't true.. no

But at least we're on the same side... Smile

The Astute is a fine class of ship, but I'll take Electric Boat and their sound reputation of submarine innovation over BAE's. BAE is the grasshopper to Electric Boat's kung fu master.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 15):
Wait a minute, you mean Russia has nuclear subs that go global? News flash indeed! How stupid are people?

Yeah but like the article points out, since the fall of the Soviet Union and evident by more than one submariner catastrophe since then, they haven't had the budget to project their force as they once used to during the height of the Cold War.


User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4423 times:

What worries me is that the US seems to be focusing everything on the types of fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan and forgetting that we are still vulnerable to large countries like Russia. One of the reasons for halting production of the F-22 was we need aircraft aimed at fighting insurgents, not large countries. I find this to be a big mistake, and this Russia incident proves my point. We may think that all future wars will be like the ones in Iraq where you are fighting non technical small groups of people on the ground in cities, but the fact remains that we should be prepared to fight a country the size of Russia or China.

User currently offlineUH60FtRucker From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4393 times:



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 16):
OK Already geez 60 , I thought it was kind of a cool thread to start . Man its a tough crowd on here ! Big grin

I don't think its a big deal either , but its not everyday us civilian hear about Nuke subs patrolling off our coast. Man am I stupid ..



Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 18):
We'll blame it on NY Times, no worries.

AGM - no I wasn't aiming that at you! I was aiming it at the numerous news outlets/commentators who highlight this story as though its something alarming. And it's not just this story, but go back and look at the overreactions to when two Russian bombers flew down to Cuba, or a few Bears flew along the northern borders of Alaska. Hell, even when the Chinese sub popped up within out carrier group. In these events the media, and some people, act like, "the nerve of those other guys! Who do they think they are?" When in reality, we're doing the same thing, and doing it on purpose. So no worries AGM, we're good.

Quoting Nomadd22 (Reply 19):
You been delegated to speak for the American public now?

Uhhhh.... I wasn't speaking for the American public. If you go back and read it, I was speaking about the American public.

But if you would like to nominate me to fill that role, sure I'll take it!  Big grin


User currently offlineMichlis From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 737 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4393 times:



Quoting DL767captain (Reply 21):
What worries me is that the US seems to be focusing everything on the types of fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan and forgetting that we are still vulnerable to large countries like Russia.

Good point, but really a lot of this sub activity is about Russia strutting to remind us their still in the game. Also, the anniversary of the Georgia war is here and this could be muscle flexing to highlight the fact.



If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles.
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4370 times:



Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 17):
The P-3's are still at Jacksonville NAS

Yup... Jaxs is it.... NAS Brunswick is set to close soon... leaving only NAS Jacksonville on the east coast. At one time we had 3 VP bases just on the eastcoast... NAS Brunswick had 4 Squardrons with as many as 30 aircraft stationed there... now just a hand full are left



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
25 LHCVG : Yeah, and as far as I'm concerned if they were there for two weeks, that means they just handed us two weeks' worth of sonar recording tapes of some
26 KiwiRob : I didn't think you guys could track a Trafalgar, let alone its replacement. Diesel electric subs are even quieter the nuclear ones.
27 STT757 : There were more than that, but for the past 15 years or so it's been Jacksonville (3-4 squarons), Willow Grove JRB (2 squadrons) and Brunswick Maine
28 UH60FtRucker : It would definitely be an interesting concept to bring the new P-8As online for active service, while pushing down the P-3s into Reserve Patrol squad
29 MCIGuy : Exactly! Far better to have something and not need it than to need it and not have it! As for the subs, I agree with most here who say it's no big de
30 AirRyan : Uh huh, well if that's the extent of your information on the USN's modern nuclear submarine fleet, than please don't let me be the one to burst your
31 Astuteman : Whether it's a post-refit example equipped with 2076, or not, will influence that position... That's the fun of these discussions isn't it? Most of t
32 KiwiRob : Not my info, I heard it from a BAe rep at the last Euronaval Expo. He also said the hardest subs of the lot to track were the Vangards.
33 Astuteman : Wasn't me guv. In truth, such matters are pretty sensitive, and these days we work VERY closely with our friends and allies in the US Subs fleet (and
34 AirRyan : Well look at the source; BAE had to ask Electric Boat for help in their Astute manufacturing process. I know the Astute is a fine vessel and I wish t
35 Astuteman : Are you kidding? When Astute declared an overrun of £500m and 3 years, the UK MOD insisted that EB audit what we were doing. Dumbasses. Do you know
36 KiwiRob : And what would you call the Collins Class, they are ocean going with a mission profile similar to a nuclear attack sub. There are also some rather ni
37 TheCol : I doubt there would be much need for more than a couple of P-3's at Whidbey Island. 407 Maritime Patrol Squadron already operates a number of CP-140'
38 Post contains links Maxter : And then there is this... A bit dated perhaps, but still an exceptionally capable platform. http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/na...es-formidable-assa
39 StudeDave : And they (alone) can cover the ENTIRE West Coast of North America??? Those guys are gooood....
40 Post contains links Olle : Sweden used to have worse problems Here is a Soviet sub into swedish waters 20 years ago! http://svt.se/content/1/c6/44/87/63/u137_svtbild.jpg
41 GDB : Olle, that would be the 'Whiskey' class sub that ran aground. As in 'Whiskey on the rocks', as one Scotch company would use in advertising at the time
42 Racko : How good are the German Type 212 submarines compared to the international competition?
43 Post contains links Lumberton : Entering Vlad? That sounds like pub talk or opdec. Why not Petro? That's where the boomers were. Why risk a boat and crew for info that could have be
44 Astuteman : Go along with that. there's a fair bit of "circumstantial" overlaid on top of the "engineered", as far as I can see Rgds
45 GDB : Thanks for the interesting link Lumbertown. The 'O' class were one of the high points of British post war designs, both sub and surface vessels. Hence
46 Post contains links KiwiRob : It was recently declassified, not pub talk at all, http://www.theage.com.au/news/nation...face/2006/09/07/1157222265317.html Do a goodle search you'l
47 Lumberton : That link says nothing about "going into" Vladivostok harbor clandestinely. Our boats, and those of our allies, routinely conducted surveillance of V
48 ZANL188 : Indeed, in fact the link states the subs stayed in international waters.. "The vessels' captains were ordered to stay out of foreign territorial wate
49 KiwiRob : I was told entering the harbor.
50 Lumberton : I think what you were told was slightly "overstated". It would have been daft to risk the boat and crew for intel that could have been gathered more
51 AirRyan : Over-achieving (as in a credit to her crews and their training) half-sized (3,000 ton) relatively modern diesel-electric submarines forever limited b
52 ThePointblank : I don't know, diesel-electrics can be pretty quiet and difficult to detect subs. The nature of their propulsion while submerged means that they have
53 Rwessel : Running on their electrics, diesel-electric subs start out as inherently having much less machinery noise than nukes. On electrics, you have a rotati
54 Acheron : Regarding quietness, give me a diesel-electric any day particularly close to the shores.
55 BMI727 : Maybe pilots and submariners are cut from the same cloth. Diesel-electric and nuke boats both have their advantages and shortcomings. Either way, I t
56 Astuteman : A compliment from a Canadian about one of the Upholders? For what its worth the RN said the same thing. They were seriously p**sed when the politicia
57 Olle : Into the Australian subs - is it not technology from Swedish/german Kockums?
58 Post contains images Lumberton : That is my understanding also. Not sure what local improvements were made by the RAN. Hmmmm....I've dealt with both aviators and nukes in another lif
59 AirRyan : Virginia classed subs should remedy that. Running on electrics, just like the great myth behind the practicality if not fiscal feasibility of hybrid
60 Lumberton : So who or what are your "sources"? Care to divulge?
61 Astuteman : That said, anything over 4kts is a complete waste of time if you're seriously hunting - the noise will kill you - literally. On this particular subje
62 Lumberton : Yes, I agree. However, the statement "According to my sources, our ships are extremely used to picking up your LA and Ohio class subs while in exerci
63 ThePointblank : A couple of ASW operators on the West Coast. With the return of submarine capability to the Navy, we returned to practising our ASW skills as during
64 ThePointblank : I don't think anyone can fault you guys for your hull designs; but we can definitely do without Lucas wiring. What were those jokes regarding Lucas w
65 Flighty : I've seen other (informal) sources say the same thing. Nuclear propulsion is great for the worldwide blue water patrols of the USA and its (sometime)
66 Rwessel : [quote=Flighty,reply=65]One hybrid combination that I don't think has been explored is a Slowpoke/Fuel Cell combination. A small nuke and a battery do
67 BMI727 : God said "Let there be light." Lucas said "Let there be darkness." A guy is looking at a used Land Rover and notices that the switchgear isn't backli
68 Astuteman : Not really. The RN were saying they were capable of tracking LA's and Ohio's using these very same subs 20 years ago. I don't know in hindsight wheth
69 Lumberton : Attack boats have this capability? So, it comes down to "I know a guy, who..."? I can't find any reference to this on the internet. Can you point us
70 BMI727 : I was referring to submariners in general, though Tomahawks did used to be able to carry a small nuclear warhead.
71 Post contains links and images Lumberton : And proving my point that... You're not one of THEM, are you? [ Further to the "Thanks, Vladimir" comment I made in an earlier post: http://www.times
72 Pelican : I wonder what for type 212 U-boats have a range of 8.000 miles? That might be true for older diesel electrics like the Collins class but the range an
73 PITingres : Just a few of my favorites: Lucas, the Prince of Darkness. The Lucas motto: "Get home before dark." Lucas holds the patents for the short circuit and
74 KiwiRob : Collins class isn't that old, the first hull was launched in 1990 the last in 2003.
75 Connies4ever : I think some clarification/correction is required here. Slowpoke was designed at Whiteshell Labs in Manitoba by Atomic Energy of Canada Limited in th
76 ThePointblank : I think the concept was to use something like a Stirling engine that was powered by the heat from the Slowpoke reactor, much like how the Swedes are
77 Astuteman : I recall that "sales opportunity" as still being on the cards when the Berlin wall fell.. Rgds
78 Connies4ever : The Trafalgar's were looked at but are/were pretty rich for Canada's defence budget. Probably we could only have had 3 or 4 Trafalgar's for 7 or 8 Am
79 KiwiRob : How could they stop it, the reactor was designed and built by Rolls Royce?
80 Astuteman : It's a condition of a bilateral agreement between the USA and the UK called the "1958 Agreement" under which RR became the design authority in the UK
81 GDB : That agreement seems very obsolete now, only HMS Dreadnought had a US built reactor. More to the point, what generation of R/R reactors are we on now?
82 Post contains links and images Astuteman : Seems reasonable. I can assure you, though, that the 1958 agreement as it relates to reactor technology transfer, obsolete as it might be, is very mu
83 ThePointblank : I think what made the French subs attractive was that the French were offering complete technology transfer so we could build the boats locally. We w
84 Astuteman : The single biggest cost through life..... Not for the fainthearted. Rgds
85 MD11Engineer : As Land Rover driver: The only products of Lucas which didn´t suck were their vacuum cleaners. Lucas theory of electrics: Electrical systems run on
86 Post contains links Lumberton : As I've been saying, all in all, a good opportunity for an ASW exercise. According to this AFP report, the Russians failed their mission. http://www.g
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