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What Could Follow Hamas  
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Posted (5 years 1 week ago) and read 1768 times:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8202746.stm


Gaza Islamist leader dies in raid
The leader of a radical Islamist group involved in a shootout with Hamas in Gaza is one of at least 22 people killed in the raid, reports say.
Abdul-Latif Moussa died in an explosion, officials said, but it was not clear whether he blew himself up.
On Friday Hamas, which controls Gaza, launched a bloody crackdown on the group, Jund Ansar Allah, after it declared an "Islamic emirate".


Hamas is by no means the most extreme of organizations. Maybe the west will begin to contemplate the difference between what is unwelcome (Hamas) and what would be even more unwelcome (a branch of a more extremist Islamist organization).

As they say, be careful what you wish for. As in:

The Hamas spokesman, Taher al-Nono, said: "We hold Abdul-Latif Moussa and his followers fully responsible for what happened because of his hasty declaration during Friday prayers of a so-called 'Islamic Emirate'."

45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12134 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 week ago) and read 1753 times:

Baroque, my ausie friend, dispite what the BBC, or any other news media says, Hamas is still a terrorist organization, according to the US, UK, EU, and Australia. The fact they have "problems" with another terrorist group, Jund Ansar Allah, and both have fighting between themsleves, is only a good thing for civilized people.

Some people insist that a terrorist is simply a freedom fighter by another name. I don't buy that as freedom fighters don't routinely target innocent men, women, and children just to grab a headline.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 2, posted (5 years 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1735 times:



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
Baroque, my ausie friend, dispite what the BBC, or any other news media says, Hamas is still a terrorist organization, according to the US, UK, EU, and Australia.

Or my US friend you could read a bit more carefully. I said:

Quoting Baroque (Thread starter):
Maybe the west will begin to contemplate the difference between what is unwelcome (Hamas) and what would be even more unwelcome (a branch of a more extremist Islamist organization).

Which might raise the question of why has Hamas used terrorist tactics? This is seldom asked. Then again, I am sure some would argue that many western powers seldom ask why their armies are engaged in wars.

Yep, that is the best thing, just keep banging out heads against the walls. We just know we will feel the pain more if we stop.

Arguably declaring the whole of Hamas a terrorist organization was a fairly major mistake as it ruled offside the most effective social support organization that the Palestinians had as well as the terrorist side of the organization. Surely it is not beyond the wit of all these experienced diplomats to be able to cope with an organization that has more than one function? Or then again, perhaps it is.

At all times we must remember

Four legs good
Two legs bad.

Oh no, that is the other side. I forgot, humble grovellings.


User currently offlineFridgmus From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1442 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (5 years 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1672 times:
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I'm hoping Hamas can evolve into a, dare I use the word, "legitimate" organization? They seem to be the lesser of two evils here.

Hamas knows what it needs to do: Renounce terrorism, recognize Israel's right to exist etc.

As Baroque says, they are the only social support network that the Palestinians have and from what I've read in various publications, they're pretty good at it.

I'm hoping that if Hamas moderates and gets control of their militant personnel, Israel will back off and they can start down the road to Peace. Or they can just keep killing each other.

Time will tell.

F



The Lockheed Super Constellation, the REAL Queen of the Skies!
User currently offlineUs330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3871 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (5 years 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1661 times:



Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 3):
As Baroque says, they are the only social support network that the Palestinians have and from what I've read in various publications, they're pretty good at it.

Maybe in Gaza, but not necessarily in the West Bank.
While the world mourns Gaza's plight, the West Bank has quietly turned itself around, and is actually witnessing some economic growth and development.
There was an op-ed in the WSJ a couple of days written by Michael Oren, the Israeli ambassador to the U.S., a former professor of mine. He's admittedly a biased source, but it is hard to argue with numbers such as 7% economic growth rate and a 24% average wage increase.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...70203863204574348292035667088.html


User currently offlineFridgmus From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1442 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (5 years 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1657 times:
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Quoting Us330 (Reply 4):
Maybe in Gaza, but not necessarily in the West Bank.
While the world mourns Gaza's plight, the West Bank has quietly turned itself around, and is actually witnessing some economic growth and development.

I'm really glad to hear that. I know that Hamas isn't much of a force in the West Bank. Now if some of this economic prosperity can grow in Gaza, then that will be the start of Peace there.

The Israeli's would do well to help promote that.



The Lockheed Super Constellation, the REAL Queen of the Skies!
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (5 years 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1648 times:



Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 3):
they are the only social support network that the Palestinians have and from what I've read in various publications, they're pretty good at it.

Yes, it is a real bugger when the "baddies" turn out to be even vaguely related to partial goodies.  eek  The irony is that even the NGOs have sweet all chance of delivering much aid even if permitted to by GOI if Hamas do not agree.

Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 3):
I'm hoping that if Hamas moderates and gets control of their militant personnel, Israel will back off and they can start down the road to Peace.

The Aung San / US swimmer episode may have relevance if the US revises its approaches to matters various. From what I read, the moderates in Hamas have sort of won, just with continued Israeli pressure the overall result is that Hamas is reluctant to allow much to emerge to show that moderation is the flavour of the month. They are on record as being willing to revise their founding document, just they want a quid pro the quo.

But keep shutting Hamas out, even without bombing them again, and they will give way to something more extreme. As Brutus is claimed to have said " There is a tide in the affairs of men. Which taken at the flood, leads on to fortune; Omitted, all the voyage of their life Is bound in shallows and in miseries" And it cuts both ways as the man said giving his son a two edged sword!


User currently offlineFuturePilot16 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2035 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1642 times:

Well this is one thing I actually applaud Hamas for. I too hope that they can develop into a legit organization where people can vote for their leaders instead of living in a military state. They've already proven to be fierce warriors, i'm sure they would get a lot of respect from Israel and the west if they take the next step to better themselves.


"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5694 posts, RR: 18
Reply 8, posted (5 years 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1638 times:



Quoting Baroque (Reply 6):
The Aung San / US swimmer episode may have relevance if the US revises its approaches to matters various.

What exactly is the relevance?
The US senator "rescued" (at what cost?) the swimmer whose role in the entire incident is unclear to say the least. He could be anyone from a pure lunatic to - far more likely - someone (cue the easy release by the Burmese junta) who has been used/hired to create an excuse to nail Aung San Suu Kyi. He's off the hook and she's stuck with another 18 months of house arrest and the junta most likely got some sweet, behind-the-closed-doors deal
Yeah, great job Mr. Senator I hope you are proud of what you did.  Yeah sure

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 7):
i'm sure they would get a lot of respect from Israel and the west if they take the next step to better themselves.

Geez, why didn't we gave nazis a second chance to "better themselves"? Their social policies were pretty robust too...

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 7):
fierce warriors

Warriors do not hide among civilians and deliberately choose civilian targets. Terrorist cowards do.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19509 posts, RR: 58
Reply 9, posted (5 years 5 days ago) and read 1629 times:



Quoting Baroque (Reply 2):

At all times we must remember

Four legs good
Two legs bad.

Did you just turn into a Kiwi?  duck 

The thing is that Hamas has become much more moderate and they have stopped terrorist attacks for the most part. The terrorist attacks that occur in Hamas's name are typically a "Real IRA" sort of arrangement. They aren't sanctioned by Hamas. Hamas went from a group of angry men to a group of men who grew the hell up and realized that being angry is not very productive.

This new group seems like a new group of angry young men and we need to figure out what we can do in that part of the world to stop generating so many angry young men.


User currently offlineAvi From Israel, joined Sep 2001, 942 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1621 times:



Quoting Baroque (Reply 2):
Which might raise the question of why has Hamas used terrorist tactics?

Why don't you answer that?
Why don't you explain us (or at least me) why AFTERT Israel and the Palestinians signed the Oslo accord on September 93 and AFTER Israel started to withdraw from Gaza during winter 94, Hamas started to blow up themselves in Israel streets (The first one was on April 94)?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 9):
The thing is that Hamas has become much more moderate and they have stopped terrorist attacks for the most part.

Hamas stopped terrorism? You got to be joking. We stooped them. We in very hard work which took long time, in many operations against them and with a great help of the security fence, we stooped them. They didn't stop anything. Just give them an opportunity to do something and they will.
They didn't stop firing rockets on us because they decided to stop firing, they stooped because we decided to put an end to that (way too late) and now they know they will pay for every single shot (something that didn't happen until January) so not only they don't fire, they operate against who – in rarely occasions now - does (like exactly this group who fired on us last week causing Hamas to pay the price).



Long live the B747
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1613 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 9):
occur in Hamas's name are typically a "Real IRA" sort of arrangement. They aren't sanctioned by Hamas.

And then of course in the IRA sequence you get the PIRA (or Provos) and now even a splinter from the who are still a problem, now ironically a problem just as much to the Provos as to the Brits as the Provos are in government. The two chuckles (McGuiness and Paisley) were an amazing example of what could be achieved by patient politics.

Just as JI in Indonesia has renounced violence and N Top still has a group blowing up hotels. Once a group adopts a violent policy, it is much more difficult to stop than it was to allow the conditions under which it started.

Quoting Avi (Reply 10):
and AFTER Israel started to withdraw from Gaza during winter 94

Interesting definition of withdrawal. There were still about 9k settlers and as Israel still controls all border crossing and the sea off Gaza it still controls Gaza. All care and no responsibility come to mind??

Israel knows that the settlements are a problem but continues with policies that perpetuate them.

It withdrew from Sinai and does it have problems with Egypt - no. It fails to withdraw from Palestine, it has problems. Surprise.


User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6793 posts, RR: 34
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1610 times:



Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 3):
Hamas knows what it needs to do: Renounce terrorism, recognize Israel's right to exist etc.

LOL! They're kind of out of business if they do that....

Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 3):
I'm hoping Hamas can evolve into a, dare I use the word, "legitimate" organization? They seem to be the lesser of two evils here.

There is no legitimizing terrorists. Let's stop the moral equivocation. It's bad enough we so cavalierly throw around the term "lesser of two evils" when we Americans go to the ballot box, but in this case, I refuse to accept evil of any flavor or shade.


User currently offlineAvi From Israel, joined Sep 2001, 942 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1597 times:



Quoting Baroque (Reply 11):
Interesting definition of withdrawal. There were still about 9k settlers and as Israel still controls all border crossing and the sea off Gaza it still controls Gaza.

It was the first stage of many to come as agreed and signed with the Palestinians themselves but Hamas had problems with the peace process so when they saw it actually happening, they decided to "blow it up" by blowing us up and you are too afraid to admit that. You prefer to ignore that like the timetable was different.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 11):
It withdrew from Sinai and does it have problems with Egypt - no. It fails to withdraw from Palestine, it has problems. Surprise.

We don't have problems with Egypt (actually there terror attacks on us in Egypt and from Egypt after we withdrew but the government does everything they can – and they can - to prevent such attacks) or Jordan (no withdrawal here) because the 2 countries actually meant to do what was signed, to honor the peace agreement. It never was the case with the Palestinians. Arafat said in a very clear way what he thought about the agreement the day after it was signed and stupid us continued anyway (and not even stooped after the beginning of the suicide attacks).

By the way, we completely withdrew from Lebanon. So what? Did that put an end to attacks on us? No. But the war in 2006 did. Not a single attack on us by Hezbollah since then.



Long live the B747
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1567 times:

No Avi, I fell for your line the first time to discuss Hamas but not twice. This thread is not about Hamas per se, but about what might follow Hamas if some sort of accommodation is not made with them. Currently, it seem to be Israeli policy to undermine Hamas, an organization that it helped found. What sort of an organization does it expect to follow? Because the uprising gives a good idea of what might follow.

User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1560 times:



Quoting Baroque (Thread starter):
Hamas is by no means the most extreme of organizations. Maybe the west will begin to contemplate the difference between what is unwelcome (Hamas) and what would be even more unwelcome (a branch of a more extremist Islamist organization).

-
The saying I think was created during the French Revolution "the revolution eats its own children". And also the Fundamentalists differ among themselves. President Mubarak reduced the power of the Fundamentalists by giving them some freedom, so that there in Egypt are now three or four fundamentalist parties fighting for their segment of voters. To have a counterweight to them, Mubarak gradually allowed extreme leftwing parties into parliamentary politics. And this was quite successfully copied in Algeria by Abdelaziz Bouteflika. You could see the difference also in Afghanistan where the "ancien regime" Taliban put the other also fairly fundamentalist movements, among them the one of Gulbuddin Hekmatyar (of CIA/OBL fame) to the side. And now, among the various movements posing as "Taliban", Gulbuddin Hekmatyar is very important again.

And this was the reason for the swift and brutal action of the Hamas authorities. They realize the danger for them about a split among the fundamentalists. They in Gaza in the last parliamentary elections got a 60% majority, but that was a protest vote, and does not mean that they have a following of 50%plus, but their actual support base is at around 30%. If they were to allow another fundamentalist group to take hold, that base might even shrink to 25% or less. And all this is the reason why Hamas refuses even to talk about any new parliamentary elections as they know that any such elections would mean them to lose their leading role in Gaza. And they know that their approval for elections would mean to allow observers from the Arab League and the EU into Gaza where they had to give up their total rule they have right now.


User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 59
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1555 times:

I wish Fatah and Hamas would agree to start working together despite their differences. As long as the Palestinians are divided into two camps, they will remain weak and make little progress, both politically and economically.

The two camps have very different ideologies, one being Nationalist and the other being Islamist, but common ground can be found. Both parties represent substantial portions of the Palestinian population, so one solution is perhaps a consociational government. This is how Lebanon gets by (tries to).

[Edited 2009-08-18 00:06:05]


"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1547 times:



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
Hamas is still a terrorist organization

-
Whenever this is true, it is a minor aspect. The major aspect is that it is an extremist, fundamentalist, restrictive, anti-liberal, anti-freedom, oppressive, ultra-conservative movement threatening all liberty and all freedom. This is what matters.

Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 3):
I'm hoping Hamas can evolve into a, dare I use the word, "legitimate" organization? They seem to be the lesser of two evils here.

-
The already have evolved into a "legitimate" political party. But have not become better in any way or in any respect.

Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 3):
Hamas knows what it needs to do: recognize Israel's right to exist etc.

As Baroque says, they are the only social support network that the Palestinians have and from what I've read in various publications, they're pretty good at it.

I'm hoping that if Hamas moderates and gets control of their militant personnel, Israel will back off and they can start down the road to Peace.

> Hamas does not know what to do, and refuses to accept the existence of Israel
> also Fatah, PFLP, PDFLP and el-Saika have social support networks
-- whenever the one of Hamas dominates in the Gaza Territory
> Hamas moderates are a minority and are dominated by their extreme leaders

Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 5):
Now if some of this economic prosperity can grow in Gaza, then that will be the start of Peace there.

-
No economic progress is possible as long as the government is as extreme as Hamas. Just one aspect. Gaza would have a potential in beachside tourism, just as some other ugly cities in the Mediterranean. But tourists want to have alcoholic beverages at least inside the hotel compounds. And do not want to go to a place where there always is a likelihood for violence. And investors want a government to work with, while investors accept dictatorships, they cannot work with religious zealots. And forget the comparison with Iran. Iran has cultural treasures while Gaza has none. And Saudi Arabia does not allow tourism.

Quoting Slider (Reply 12):
There is no legitimizing terrorists

-
Hamas already is "legitimized", not least by international elections observers. They may be "terrorists" but they primarily now are a political party and the government party in the Gaza Territory.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1534 times:



Quoting BA (Reply 16):
I wish Fatah and Hamas would agree to start working together despite their differences. As long as the Palestinians are divided into two camps, they will remain weak and make little progress, both politically and economically.

The two camps have very different ideologies, one being Nationalist and the other being Islamist, but common ground can be found. Both parties represent substantial portions of the Palestinian population, so one solution is perhaps a consociational government. This is how Lebanon gets by (tries to).

Working together for Fatah and the other PLO parties with a party who insists totally on its principles like
> not accepting Israel
> a total ban on alcoholic beverages
> a strict dress code for everybody
> social rules in fundamentalist way
> extreme restrictions against all sorts of entertainment
is not very easy to start.
-
In Lebanon, the only fundamentalist party, and one of the two Shi'ite parties, is opposed to the present government coalition, and even if getting into government it could only do so as a partner in a new coalition. As soon as Hamas is ready to get into new parliamentary elections, the doors will become open for the future.


User currently offlineUs330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3871 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1523 times:



Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 7):
I too hope that they can develop into a legit organization where people can vote for their leaders instead of living in a military state. They've already proven to be fierce warriors, i'm sure they would get a lot of respect from Israel and the west if they take the next step to better themselves.

"Fierce warriors"? This group targets civilians and unarmed innocents as much as they do the IDF. I don't call someone who specifically targets civilians and innocents a "fierce warrior," while hiding among their own civilian population--I call them a murderer and a coward.

The only way for Hamas to gain any sort of respect from Israel is to become truly revolutionary....abandon it's "exterminate the Israelis" rhetoric and become the first Palestinian organization with a decent amount of power to recognize the existence of Israel.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1515 times:

There is this document:
http://middleeast.about.com/b/2008/0...-teasing-recognition-of-israel.htm
Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal, in an interview published on April 2 in the Palestinian daily Al-Ayyam, focused attention again on an enigmatic Palestinian document that appears to recognize Israel's right to exist. "There is a Palestinian document," Meshaal said from his office in Damascus, "and in it all organizations say they agree to a state in the 1967 borders."

The 18-point National Conciliation Document, also known as the Prisoners' Document, was drafted on May 11, 2006 by Palestinian prisoners held in an Israeli jail. It was revised on June 28, 2006. It calls for the establishment of a Palestinian state along the pre-1967 Israeli borders --- in Gaza and the West Bank, with Jerusalem as its capital. It also calls for "the right of return for [Palestinian] refugees to their homes and properties from which they were evicted." Which is to say, return to Israel proper (or Palestine, depending on the perspective).

The document, signed by both Hamas and Fatah representatives, has been interpreted as a tacit recognition of Israel's right to exist.


While nobody talks to Hamas, the document could mean anything anyone chooses to think it might mean and neither Israel, the US nor the EU is in much of a position to argue.

However, again, this thread is NOT about what Hamas is, or is not, what Hamas has done or might do, but about what might follow Hamas if outside powers continue to work for the collapse of Hamas. If you want to rant about Hamas I suggest starting a thread entitled "Ranting about Hamas". Analysing Hamas is fine, but ranting is pretty pointless, we have had scads of threads on that during the last war.


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12134 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 days ago) and read 1500 times:



Quoting Baroque (Reply 2):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
Baroque, my ausie friend, dispite what the BBC, or any other news media says, Hamas is still a terrorist organization, according to the US, UK, EU, and Australia.

Or my US friend you could read a bit more carefully. I said:

Quoting Baroque (Thread starter):
Maybe the west will begin to contemplate the difference between what is unwelcome (Hamas) and what would be even more unwelcome (a branch of a more extremist Islamist organization).

Then Hamas needs to purge themselves of the extremists elements within their organization. All of us on this planet need to compromise with each other as we have no choice but to live together.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 2):
Which might raise the question of why has Hamas used terrorist tactics? This is seldom asked. Then again, I am sure some would argue that many western powers seldom ask why their armies are engaged in wars.

Yep, that is the best thing, just keep banging out heads against the walls. We just know we will feel the pain more if we stop.

Arguably declaring the whole of Hamas a terrorist organization was a fairly major mistake as it ruled offside the most effective social support organization that the Palestinians had as well as the terrorist side of the organization. Surely it is not beyond the wit of all these experienced diplomats to be able to cope with an organization that has more than one function? Or then again, perhaps it is.

Hamas has made great strides in the West Bank, that portion of Hamas, seems to have learned that violence begets violence. However their Hamas brothers in Gaza haven't or won't learn that same lesson. Maybe Hamas is splitting into two different groups, and the split is not complete, for whatever internal reason. But as long as the "Good Hamas" is tied to the "Bad Hamas", they will be overall considered a threat to the civilized world and a terrorist organization. The choice is really up to Hamas as a whole.

Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 3):
I'm hoping Hamas can evolve into a, dare I use the word, "legitimate" organization? They seem to be the lesser of two evils here.

Hamas knows what it needs to do: Renounce terrorism, recognize Israel's right to exist etc.

I believe that is all Israel has ever asked oif them

Quoting Us330 (Reply 4):

Maybe in Gaza, but not necessarily in the West Bank.



Quoting Baroque (Reply 6):
From what I read, the moderates in Hamas have sort of won, just with continued Israeli pressure the overall result is that Hamas is reluctant to allow much to emerge to show that moderation is the flavour of the month. They are on record as being willing to revise their founding document, just they want a quid pro the quo.

I have no problem with a quid pro quo with Hamas. They do deserve a chance to demonstrate their embrassing the civilized world, not attacking it.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 17):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
Hamas is still a terrorist organization

-
Whenever this is true, it is a minor aspect. The major aspect is that it is an extremist, fundamentalist, restrictive, anti-liberal, anti-freedom, oppressive, ultra-conservative movement threatening all liberty and all freedom. This is what matters.

Even a minor aspect of hamas, or any other organization will not be accepted by the western world. While some believe that one persons terrorist is another persoins freedom fighter, that agument goes out the window with indiscriminate rockets fired into innocent civilian areas, and not at an opposing military force.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 22, posted (5 years 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1492 times:



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 21):
Hamas is splitting into two different groups

I doubt if between us we have enough fingers to count the schisms let alone splits. Might manage if allowed to use all our toes as well.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 21):
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 17):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
Hamas is still a terrorist organization
-
Whenever this is true, it is a minor aspect. The major aspect is that it is an extremist, fundamentalist, restrictive, anti-liberal, anti-freedom, oppressive, ultra-conservative movement threatening all liberty and all freedom. This is what matters.

Even a minor aspect of hamas, or any other organization will not be accepted by the western world.

I think MAF was probably meaning the internal perception of Hamas where any terrorist activities have generally been someone else as far as those carrying out the social program are concerned, and it was their social activities that won them the election that was denied. Not a good look by the way for the advocates of democracy: "You must vote". Soon turned to
"You voted for the wrong candidates, we refuse to recognise the results".

The west has nearly nowhere to go after tha debacle.

Basically the use of terrorist tactics by some Palestinian groups has now become an entrenched excuse for doing nothing except build more settlements. What lesson does that teach the Paliestinians? It certainly does not seem to have stopped terrorism, or so we are constantly told. But as the thread asks, do you want the Hamas style or do you want a more extreme style, just take your pick, because the choice is with you!!


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (5 years 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1481 times:



Quoting Us330 (Reply 19):
The only way for Hamas to gain any sort of respect from Israel is to become truly revolutionary....abandon it's "exterminate the Israelis" rhetoric and become the first Palestinian organization with a decent amount of power to recognize the existence of Israel.

-
they cannot do so for two reasons, one being their ideology, the other one being that the member organisations of the PLO, el-Fatah, el-Saika, PLA, PFLP and PDFLP (and some minor ones) already HAVE recognized the existence of Israel !

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 21):
Then Hamas needs to purge themselves of the extremists elements within their organization

-
These "elements" right now are the leadership of that organisation. How can you expect the leadership of an organisatio to "purge itself" of itself ??

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 21):
Whenever this is true, it is a minor aspect. The major aspect is that it is an extremist, fundamentalist, restrictive, anti-liberal, anti-freedom, oppressive, ultra-conservative movement threatening all liberty and all freedom. This is what matters.

Even a minor aspect of hamas, or any other organization will not be accepted by the western world

And I do NOT NOT NOT and NEVER accept your view that by being nicer to you or Israel makes Hamas "acceptable" !!!!  Angry  Angry


And what the "Western World" accepts or not is not the real thing, really not !  thumbsdown   thumbsdown 

Quoting Baroque (Reply 22):
it was their social activities that won them the election

No, what won them the elections not just was some corruption inside the PA which was not more than usual in the Middle East but the lame and inactive ways of the PA in regard to almost everything. The social activities were almost irrevlevant in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, what mattered was that very many Palestinians missed action

Quoting Baroque (Reply 22):
build more settlements

this simply is support for extremism. But it unfortunately is not the first time that Israel supported extremism, in mistaken views of short-term gains.


User currently offlineIMissPiedmont From United States of America, joined May 2001, 6287 posts, RR: 34
Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1472 times:

What could follow Hamas? I think a fleet of Predators would be nice.


Damn, this website is getting worse daily.
25 DocLightning : Then you admit that they have stopped terrorism if you stopped them. So does the GOP. In fact, the similarities are striking. I'm sorry, but I'm sick
26 Mir : What organization doesn't need to purge themselves of their extremists? -Mir
27 ME AVN FAN : - The trouble is if the top-leadership is the extremists inside an organisation. No party leadership will purge a party of itself. In case of the GOP
28 Baroque : You could nearly start a useful thread on whether this structure just happened or was part of the original plan and we know who assisted with the ori
29 Avi : What the hell are you talking about? When rockets were falling like rain on Sederot, our first priority should have been to stop it and not make peac
30 Post contains links Baroque : Well it would be a smart idea if you do not want more generations of fundamentalists. Why do you suppose that Australia is busily constructing school
31 KC135TopBoom : Correct, but I was being very general. The west, mostly the US and EU have recongnised the elections by the Palistinians. What most of the west does
32 DocLightning : The KKK. They can keep them. Well, there was that wedding party in Afghanistan that the GOP-run military at the time blew up. And a bunch of other ra
33 Avi : What are you comparing here? I'll send this important peace of intelligence to the authorities. Seriously now, I'm not saying there will never be a t
34 Baroque : Positive and negative approaches to a problem?? Remember the Bali I bombs killed just over 200 folk, mostly Indonesians but a high number of Australi
35 Avi : Again, what are you comparing here? Beside the fact that the bombing in Bali was an isolated attack and not something that happens several time a day,
36 ME AVN FAN : I never considered Mossad or other secret services as democratically minded institutions And here you go again !! Giving major importance to some sid
37 KC135TopBoom : Correct, it was't the GOP, or DNC (also a part of Congress at that time). Unfortunate mistakes happen in wars. The US does try to minimumize that as
38 DocLightning : The same Salvation Army that inexplicably came out with a position statement against gay marriage, rather than shutting up about it and just helping
39 KC135TopBoom : You are free to donate to which ever charity you choose. I happen to agree with the Salvation Army, who, BTW is a christen based group, and have the
40 Baroque : Oh puleeeeees. Where do you get this stuff? Oh, Yahoo answers, why did I not guess!! Even the spelling is appalling let alone the information. Most P
41 ME AVN FAN : A) I would not be welcoming to them if they just "changed" their attitudes and methods towards Israel without changing the real things. I will "welco
42 DocLightning : I'm sorry, but promises made by fictional deities should not factor into international policy. The fictional deities have this annoying habit of neve
43 Baroque : Oh yes, I forgot this rather awkward point that is better than most in terms of real history. But then Abe might have been an Iraqi, sooooo! Must be
44 ME AVN FAN : Oh sure he was an Iraqi ! The reason why Mr Ben Gurion, possibly after a bit of "spirit" spoke about an "Israel from the Nile to the Euphrates" --- w
45 Post contains links Baroque : Apropos of MAFs comments http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2008/s2663450.htm When Hamas won power in the Gaza Strip in elections in 2007, many we
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