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Flip Flop AG Holder To Prosecute CIA?  
User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7191 posts, RR: 86
Posted (4 years 11 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1259 times:
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Obama said he wouldn't prosecute or pursue officers that took part in questionable methods of interrogations under Bush Administration, now Holder is looking into doing exactly what his boss said no about.  confused  (What a headache.)

article

This won't in anyway affect counterterrorism efforts or the administration ratings will it?  Yeah sure

I would hope no officer got pleasure out of their duties, but when did we give up on 'supporting our guys?'  crying  Seems party lines cause so much animosity last 8-10 years.

Please keep on topic and civil discussion.  pray 

29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (4 years 11 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1253 times:

This is simply to divert attention from the fact Obama's health care bill is going down in flames. Nobody in the Obama administration or the DNC thought they would be in this position and they are scared to death. Time to grasp at straws. I am buying my popcorn, the 2010' elections are going to be sweet.



User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7191 posts, RR: 86
Reply 2, posted (4 years 11 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1251 times:
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Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
This is simply to divert attention from the fact Obama's health care bill is going down in flames.

I was trying to be impartial in my OP, but I figured it was a smoke screen. Saw Feingold's interview where "sometime next year, a vote could happen..."

It's sort of sad the guys that risk their lives, military included, sometimes get rung out like this over politix.  no 


User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21515 posts, RR: 55
Reply 3, posted (4 years 11 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1227 times:



Quoting FXramper (Thread starter):
I would hope no officer got pleasure out of their duties, but when did we give up on 'supporting our guys?'

'Supporting our guys' doesn't mean looking the other way when they cross the line from strong interrogation into torture.

If it takes prosecutions to get that message across, so be it. Though I would rather them go after those who let that crap go on rather than the people who actually committed the acts.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21406 posts, RR: 54
Reply 4, posted (4 years 11 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1229 times:



Quoting FXramper (Thread starter):
Obama said he wouldn't prosecute or pursue officers that took part in questionable methods of interrogations under Bush Administration, now Holder is looking into doing exactly what his boss said no about.    (What a headache.)

Obama's position had been that officials acting within their orders from above were not to be prosecuted. The new findings apparently go beyond just that, so prosecution of these people would be consistent with what Obama had said.


User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13035 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (4 years 11 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1214 times:

I don't think Holder and this Administration will really go that far in proscuting people who tortured terrorists as in the end it will would be politically unpopular to many if not most Americans. Let us not forget in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, that all but a small number of Americans had NO problems with the use of torture and other acts in violation of our Constitution and human rights agreements we were signers to. They believe that anyone that wants to hurt America, to do terror acts to murder Americans are not human and do not deserve humane treatment including the use of any form of torture. They wanted overwhelming revenge, not information, didn't care if an individual was innocent. As many of these terrorists were of the Islamic faith further compounded the pain and death they faced.

The other big problem is that those that 'followed orders' as given and as humans with all the emotions to seek revenge for 9/11 and other terror acts will face penalties that may put them in jail, ruin their families and put them at personal danger (hense the massive blacking out of the recent report) after it was said they would not face it. I suspect that Republicans and a few Democrats will find some legisgation to protect the CIA employees as see them as 'partriots' and terminate any proscution of them.


User currently offlineFr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (4 years 11 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1205 times:



Quoting FXramper (Thread starter):
This won't in anyway affect counterterrorism efforts or the administration ratings will it?

How can it not have an affect on counter-terrorism? If people go to jail, or are even accused or prosecuted, for what were lawful orders, how are the current folks involved in counter-terrorism supposed to react?

And, I guess we're back to the definition of torture. Threatening a man's family? Come on, that's school yard crap. If he fell for ir...more power to the interrogators.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21406 posts, RR: 54
Reply 7, posted (4 years 11 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1201 times:



Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 6):
And, I guess we're back to the definition of torture. Threatening a man's family? Come on, that's school yard crap. If he fell for ir...more power to the interrogators.

If people were holding you against your will, abusing you and then on top trheatening to kill your family, you would consider that just "schoolyard crap"?

I don't think so.

Although – you might in fact have had an extremely abusive and damaging schoolyard experience. Which wouldn't make these excesses any better, however.


User currently offlineFr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (4 years 11 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1193 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):

If people were holding you against your will, abusing you and then on top trheatening to kill your family, you would consider that just "schoolyard crap"?

Interrogation is supposed to be uncomfortable. This is no different than police telling folks what life in prison is like. No different than telling a suspect that his partner is in the next room writing up his own statement. The police routinely lie to suspects in order to gain the upper hand in the interrogation.

Really, how are these people supposed to be interrogated? Over tea and biscuits? Their spirit needs to be broken. If they're too stupid and they project their means and methods onto our folks, well that's just too bad.

Understand why the technique can be effective: because they are fully capable of, and have probably commited, the acts that our folks are just threatening to do.

[Edited 2009-08-26 05:04:48]


When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineMax550 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1147 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 11 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1170 times:



Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 8):
Understand why the technique can be effective: because they are fully capable of, and have probably commited, the acts that our folks are just threatening to do.

Whether a technique is effective or not is beside the point. If the country feels it is effective it should be made legal. That being said, the fact that something is effective isn't a defense for breaking the law.

I understand it's a touchy issue, because on the one hand you don't want the CIA to be concerned about being prosecuted for doing their job, but on the other hand we can't put them or the White House above the law. I think it's something that should be investigated, whether prosecutions are necessary depends on what information the investigation uncovers.


User currently offlineFr8Mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (4 years 11 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1163 times:



Quoting Max550 (Reply 9):
Whether a technique is effective or not is beside the point. If the country feels it is effective it should be made legal. That being said, the fact that something is effective isn't a defense for breaking the law.

But that's the question; were the actions illegal? This is a wild goose chase designed to deflect attention from Obamacare's collapse.

And by the way, there are a lot of things that are effective that should not be legal.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (4 years 11 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1163 times:



Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 8):
Really, how are these people supposed to be interrogated? Over tea and biscuits?

Well as it happens that is a very effective method. Check your history.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 8):
Understand why the technique can be effective: because they are fully capable of, and have probably committed, the acts that our folks are just threatening to do.

So you are happy if you venture into Aus, and we have our suspicions, drag you in and subject you to all that, because for all we know you MIGHT have done something.

WADR those Americans who are OK with this nonsense are so because they are fat dumb and happy that it can never happen to them. But it can, and if you carry on like that, it certainly will.

How many expats are there with US citizenship?

As for the AG, he is just doing what he is supposed to do. You (all) have a problem with that?


User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6573 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (4 years 11 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1160 times:
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Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 10):
But that's the question; were the actions illegal?

Well that's what the investigation will determine...



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineMax550 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1147 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 11 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1158 times:



Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 10):
But that's the question; were the actions illegal?

I don't know, that's what investigations are for. The Justice Department exists to investigate things and if they find that the law was broken, to prosecute the offenders.

Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 10):
This is a wild goose chase designed to deflect attention from Obamacare's collapse.

Just like everything else the President does.  Yeah sure

Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 10):

And by the way, there are a lot of things that are effective that should not be legal.

Like torture?


User currently offlineFr8Mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (4 years 11 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1148 times:



Quoting Baroque (Reply 11):
Well as it happens that is a very effective method. Check your history.

If you have the time. I'm well aware of history.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 11):
So you are happy if you venture into Aus, and we have our suspicions, drag you in and subject you to all that, because for all we know you MIGHT have done something.

But that is what police do, isn't it? The difference is, that I have a reasonable expectation that the Australian authorities will not shoot me out-of-hand, kill my family or put a drill into my head, because the Australians are civilized. Too the terrorist, these threats are not only possible, but probable, thus effective. They should, but they don't know better because they project their past experiences on their current circumstance.

Quoting Max550 (Reply 13):
Like torture?

Yes, like torture. But, we're back to that pesky definition, aren't we? And the definition of torture will be subjective depending on the current political winds. I other words, torture is what Holder and Obama want it to be until a jury says otherwise.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 15, posted (4 years 11 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1148 times:



Quoting Max550 (Reply 13):
Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 10):

And by the way, there are a lot of things that are effective that should not be legal.

Like torture?

That probably fails to meet the "effective" part of the word. The only ones arguing it is effective are so deeply tainted by the shambles that not a word they utter should be believed unless backed by chapter and verse. Ah yes, security prevents them telling all, trust us, just like all the other times. Look Dick, I am NOT your attorney and I don't trust you.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21406 posts, RR: 54
Reply 16, posted (4 years 11 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1143 times:



Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 8):
Interrogation is supposed to be uncomfortable.

No. Interrogation is supposed to be effective. And both violence and death threats to someone's family may create compliance, but they will certainly not provide accuracy in a testimony. Every experienced interrogator knows that.

Every actual expert on interrogations knows that – except apparently some writers on TV.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 8):
Really, how are these people supposed to be interrogated? Over tea and biscuits?

Yes, actually; That has proven to be rather effective as long as the actual truth was of any interest.

When you merely want to squeeze a prefabricated confession from someone, you'll have to torture him or her, of course. You'll have your membership in the free world and the community of civilized nations revoked automatically, of course.

We've had this kind of approach during the middle ages. And even though you seem to think that we abandoned it just for being pansies, we actually abandoned it because it is degrading for everyone involved and it just plain doesn't work!

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 8):
Their spirit needs to be broken.

You should really stop deriving your views on torture from 24 – even the CIA has complained to its makers that they were painting a thoroughly distorted picture of how interrogations work.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 8):
Understand why the technique can be effective: because they are fully capable of, and have probably commited, the acts that our folks are just threatening to do.

Yeah, guilty by indictment with no recourse whatsoever has been tried as well over here – maybe you should look up why it's been abandoned.


User currently offlineMax550 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1147 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 11 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1136 times:



Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 14):
Yes, like torture. But, we're back to that pesky definition, aren't we? And the definition of torture will be subjective depending on the current political winds. I other words, torture is what Holder and Obama want it to be until a jury says otherwise.

I think it's pretty well defined. Even those defending it aren't saying it wasn't torture, just that it was effective so it was justified.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 15):
That probably fails to meet the "effective" part of the word

Agreed. Even if it were effective (or more effective, or whatever the latest reasoning is), Fr8Mech seems to agree that it should be illegal.


User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4273 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (4 years 11 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1133 times:



Quoting FXramper (Thread starter):
but when did we give up on 'supporting our guys?'

Drew, if our guys broke the law, then they should be prosecuted and sent to jail. We cannot condone illegal activities perpetrated by 'our guys,' regardless of the political situation.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
This is simply to divert attention from the fact Obama's health care bill is going down in flames. Nobody in the Obama administration or the DNC thought they would be in this position and they are scared to death.

 redflag 

Que? Holder's doing something that should be done (that the Obama administration does not support), and all of a sudden it is to distract from health care? Perhaps you forgot a few things about the health care situation: 1) the administration knew it would face the same kind of b.s. ads that the insurance industry ran over a decade ago against Clinton's health plan; 2) Obama knew he would be in for a hell of a fight; 3) he keeps hammering away at health care, as do the insurance companies, who are alleging all kinds of interesting lies against the program. All of this tends to show that healthcare is still right in the forefront and that Obama is not shirking from the argument. We all understand you hate Obama, "liberals" (who are apparently defined as anybody to the left of Pat Buchanan and Jerry Falwell), and any kind of government expenditure (I mean, hey, what kinds of things has the government ever done for you other than provide roads, airports, regulations to make sure your car doesn't explode, regulations to allow you to work in non-dangerous environments where the company cannot control your every move, etc). But just because you despise liberals does not make your rants true.

Everybody knew Obama would stake his reputation on health care reform and that it would be a huge fight because so many people on both sides of the aisle should be described as, for instance, Coburn (R-Insurance Industry), since they sure as hell don't represent the people of their state. Arguing that Holder's actions are meant to provide a diversion from the health care debate is ludicrous.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (4 years 11 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1115 times:



Quoting Klaus (Reply 16):
We've had this kind of approach during the middle ages. And even though you seem to think that we abandoned it just for being pansies, we actually abandoned it because it is degrading for everyone involved and it just plain doesn't work!

If you have not seen this, I think you will both enjoy it and be informed. The jury was the alternative to putting increasing weights on the accused's chest to see if he or she was guilty. And of course if you liked Blackadder, this is Baldrick speaking, but so far he has not eaten any turnips.

http://entertainment.timesonline.co....nt/tv_and_radio/article4035832.ece

Tony Robinson's Crime and Punishment; How TV Changed the World
Robinson is a great presenter but the ghost of Baldrick still clings, and you sometimes long for something more pleasant to gaze at. I had hopes for the historian Sam Newton, whose name suggested something sexy in a pathology lab coat, but who turned out to be a big, floppy haired man in funny glasses and a Barbour who you half expected to give you the SP from Newmarket. Instead he regaled us with the figures from the compensation culture set up, after the arrival in 597AD of St Augustine, a man who liked a list. If you hurt someone's foot, the law charged you 50 shillings, or £5,000 in today's money. The loss of "wedding tackle" as Robinson put it, or a kindling limb, as Newton did in his best Anglo Saxon, set you back 600 shillings (or £60,000). Killing a peasant carried a fare of 200 shillings (£20,000, but by now you can do dubious maths) - 140 embarrassing shillings more than the rate for killing a Welshman.

I had forgotten how much I liked the way Robinson does these things, even if we had to wait 30 minutes before he dressed up in woad. He did so to act out King Alfred's invention of a cooling off period for tit-for-tat justice. Robinson sat on the doorstep of a man who had done him wrong, watching him take in the milk each morning. By day three he really couldn't be arsed to avenge anything. Robinson did well showing how many of these principles still apply today. Swearing an oath to tell the truth is still an important part of establishing justice, he said, reminding us of the perjury of Jonathan Aitken and Jeffrey Archer. In early Christian days they would not have dared: Hell beckoned. The same fears, he could have but didn't add, work rather well in some Sharia courts. The state levy for a kindling limb is now, by the way, a mere £30,000.


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (4 years 11 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1113 times:



Quoting Texan (Reply 18):
1) the administration knew it would face the same kind of b.s. ads that the insurance industry ran over a decade ago against Clinton's health plan

You kidding? What ads? American people (many democrats) have come out to tell the president his plan stinks. The polls don't like buddy and the votes are not there. America doesn't want it and Obama and Pelosi are reeling because this is the last thing they thought would happen and they are not prepared for it. They have decided to go down with the ship on a bad campaign promise and have thrown good sense to the wind.

Quoting Texan (Reply 18):
We all understand you hate Obama,

We don't hate anybody. Why does oppostion have to be hate? That is only a Liberal trait. We don't hate, we just don't want to be paying half our paychecks over the next 20 years to pay for this president's mistakes. Mistakes he is making knowing they are mistakes only because he wants to prove something. Stop the blind faith and stop following this guy simply because you hate the GOP. Your destroying the country and everyone knows it and will speak next year and in 2012.


User currently offlineFr8Mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (4 years 11 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1101 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 16):
Yeah, guilty by indictment with no recourse whatsoever has been tried as well over here – maybe you should look up why it's been abandoned.

Klaus, I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I'm not implying that because they behead people, we should. That's moral relativism and is a trait exhibited by liberals. I'm suggesting that because their reality is that they behead people, they think everyone else does the same, and it should be used against them. If they believe it to be true, use it, whether true or not.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 16):
You should really stop deriving your views on torture from 24 – even the CIA has complained to its makers that they were painting a thoroughly distorted picture of how interrogations work.

Never watched the show, my work schedule never allowed it and I'm not disciplined enough for DVR.

Interrogation is designed to get information from someone not willing to provide it. Tea and biscuits work when you have the time and patience. But, if you decide you don't have the time, other methods work. You do need to break the person down. If threatening their family works, so be it.

Quoting Max550 (Reply 17):
I think it's pretty well defined. Even those defending it aren't saying it wasn't torture, just that it was effective so it was justified.

Really? Narrowly define torture for me. I bet your definition doesn't match mine, nor your neighbors' nor Holder's nor Obama's nor Osama's nor Bush's. It is subjective. That's why we're where we are.

Toture is abhorrent and should be illegal, but we'll need to narrowly define torture.



[Edited 2009-08-26 10:57:11]

[Edited 2009-08-26 11:02:12]


When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21406 posts, RR: 54
Reply 22, posted (4 years 11 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1093 times:



Quoting Baroque (Reply 19):
If you have not seen this, I think you will both enjoy it and be informed. The jury was the alternative to putting increasing weights on the accused's chest to see if he or she was guilty. And of course if you liked Blackadder, this is Baldrick speaking, but so far he has not eaten any turnips.

What? No video?  cool 

Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 21):
Klaus, I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I'm not implying that because they behead people, we should. That's moral relativism and is a trait exhibited by liberals. I'm suggesting that because their reality is that they behead people, they think everyone else does the same, and it should be used against them. If they believe it to be true, use it, whether true or not.

You're outing yourself again: You have no qualms whatsoever about having these strange brown people with their funny clothes tortured and death threats being made against their families – regardless whether or not they actually are terrorists!

That is where your proposal veers off far into sheer unmitigated tyranny.

You are apparently so obsessed with your own fear that you can't think straight any more.

Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 21):
Interrogation is designed to get information from someone not willing to provide it. Tea and biscuits work when you have the time and patience. But, if you decide you don't have the time, other methods work. You do need to break the person down. If threatening their family works, so be it.

It just doesn't. Ask any experienced interrogator, not the clowns employed by the Bush administration to create their torture programs.

Who, by the way, had no interrogation experience whatsoever.

No surprise at all.


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (4 years 11 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1086 times:



Quoting Klaus (Reply 22):
Who, by the way, had no interrogation experience whatsoever.

Yea your right I think reading these terrorists their Miranda rights on the battlefield is such a better way to go. Hey give them free laywers too!  sarcastic 


User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7191 posts, RR: 86
Reply 24, posted (4 years 11 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1081 times:
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Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
cross the line from strong interrogation into torture

Grey area.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 4):
The new findings apparently go beyond just that

I read and watched lately on the news was the interrogation officers had a pretty elementary training program.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 12):
Well that's what the investigation will determine...

Obama should set a standard for what is acceptable and move forward and not in the past.

Quoting Texan (Reply 18):
Drew, if our guys broke the law

Bush's DOJ lawyers hand crafted the laws. It would be next to impossible to go back in time and draw evidence to determine if a interrogation officer went 'too far'.


25 Fr8Mech : You've absolutely lost me.
26 Seb146 : So, you are saying Obama himself file the Freedom of Information request? A lot of us who voted the Republicans out in '06 and '08 believed they were
27 Post contains links Baroque : Yes there are at http://www.channel4.com/history/micr.../C/crime-and-punishment/index.html But the damned thing flashes up "No videos avaiable at thi
28 Klaus : The whole problem with your approach comes through in the phrase "these terrorists": For you everyone under suspicion is automatically guilty and des
29 Fr8Mech : I see. We're discussing two different things. If the troops pick someone up on the battlefield (read that as whereever the fight is) lobbing RPG's, g
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