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Will Turkey Join The EU?  
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7695 posts, RR: 21
Posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4286 times:
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8241543.stm

This BBC news item reports on the view that the EU is in danger of not fulfilling its 'promise' to Turkey to grant eventual accession.

My own view on this is that no granting Turkey membership is a good thing. The EU is already too large, and geographical and cultural arguments aside, it is already a lumbering giant of beauracracy and expense to taxpayers. Having said that, I am generally pro-Europe and see many advantages to the organisation.

Do you want Turkey to join the EU? If so, why? We have previously discussed the American drive to see Turkey join, and I think the reasons behind that are very poor reasons to allow the country in.

Will we eventually see the advent of the Eurasian Union? If so, when?


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
135 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10893 posts, RR: 37
Reply 1, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4279 times:

When I was in school; I was always told by the teachers that the people of Turkey were Ottomans, as to the Ottoman Empire, not Europeans.

I had to learn about Pont Euxin, the part of Turkey where Istanbul is.

http://www.google.fr/imgres?imgurl=h...&oi=image_result&resnum=5&ct=image

I was never taught by any of my georgraphy and history teachers that Turkey was part of Europe.

I know everything now is geared toward being politically correct and going with the flow so it is fashionable now to say that Turkey is fully part of Europe as Brussels and Germany seem to absolutely want to integrate Turkey in the E.U. and I would not be the least surprised it it happens.

My opinion on this is that the E.U. is already big enough and messy enough as it is now they have a difficult enough time to get the EU laws and treaties together as it is.

Suppose they force on integrating Turkey they will also have to follow and integrate Algeria, Tuinsia, Morocco, Israel, Lebanon, Syria an why not Russia and its neighboring countries, Tajikistan and others.

Not talking about cultural and religious differences but this is taboo and should by no means be talked about.

 Wow!



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8549 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4267 times:
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I believe that the EU has painted itself into a corner on this - they clearly made a commitment to Turkey with regard to membership - to renege on this would seriously damage their international credibility ( of course for those who believe that the EU has no credibility this is presumably no big deal )

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 1):
they will also have to follow and integrate Algeria, Tuinsia, Morocco, Israel, Lebanon, Syria an why not Russia and its neighboring countries, Tajikistan and others.

so far as I know the European Union has not made a similar commitment to any or all of the countries listed above so I do not see the relevance of listing them in support of the EU reneging on the undertaking which it did make to Turkey .

While I do not think that Turkey is ready yet for membership ( which did not stop the EU from admitting Bulgaria and Romania neither of which were anywhere near ready for admission ) I dont think that eventual membership should be blocked .

As for 'cultural ' arguments I think these are just a convenient smokescreen - how much 'culturally' does Portugal have in common with Poland , or Finland with Malta , or the UK with Romania ?



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7695 posts, RR: 21
Reply 3, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4266 times:
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Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 2):
or the UK with Romania ?

A very good question. I already think Romania and Bulgaria was a bridge too far.

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 2):
Portugal have in common with Poland

Well, Catholicism is one obvious thing......

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 2):
or Finland with Malta

Fair point - nothing in particular.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10893 posts, RR: 37
Reply 4, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4262 times:

Romania, Finland, Malta, Bulgaria are all majority Christian countries.
Turkey has a largest majority -almost all- muslims.
That is a major difference there.



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8549 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4254 times:
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Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 4):
Romania, Finland, Malta, Bulgaria are all majority Christian countries.
Turkey has a largest majority -almost all- muslims.
That is a major difference there.

I knew eventually that someone would bring this up - having done so perhaps you could explain how it is relevant to membership of a trading bloc ?



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10893 posts, RR: 37
Reply 6, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4251 times:



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 5):
perhaps you could explain how it is relevant to membership of a trading bloc ?

I was thinking of religious and cultural differences there. The E.U. also implies that any population can freely migrate from one member country to the other so as you can now see in Italy it sometimes can cause major problems.

The "trade" aspect of a new country becoming is not the only one implied. Just imagine the number of Turkish workers who will look into moving to other E.U. countries if the borders are opened.



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7695 posts, RR: 21
Reply 7, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4248 times:
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Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 5):
relevant to membership of a trading bloc ?

Come on, the EU is more than just a trading block. It has become something quite unique over the years.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2071 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4244 times:

One day Turkey will join the EU. And why not. All differences can be overcome.

What we need to realize now is that this day is very, very far away. We need to stop pretending it could be sometimes in the near future. We need to stop fooling our Turkish friends. We need to stop the accession process because it will inevitably end up a disappointment for all involved.
Turkey is far away from being a European country, and the EU is in no state whatsoever to accept such a huge new member.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8549 posts, RR: 13
Reply 9, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4241 times:
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for what it is worth I am more frightened by the current membership of Poland with its hardcore and very repressive catholicism than by the ( eventual) membership of a (relatively moderate) islamic country . Krakow is the only city in the European Union which I have visited where I have been on the receiving end of homophobic abuse - and frankly I dont see that it is of any comfort that the abuse was coming from a 'christian' perspective rather than a 'muslim' one .

The point is that any member or candidate country , regardless of what religious beliefs a section of the population may hold , must be required to agree to enforce protection for human rights - so , by all means do not permit a country to join until it can demonstrate that it takes this seriously and commits to protecting human rights , but if it can show that willingness then religion is irrelevant .

Again , the issue comes down to one of credibility , whether we like it or not the European Union made a commitment with respect to Turkey , it is irrelevant now whether that commitment should have been made .( It is my personal opinion that Poland should not have been admitted either , but they have been and the fact that I personally dont like that is not relevant when weighed up against the commitment that the European Union made to Poland . )

If ( and it is a very big if ) Turkey can demonstrate at some future point that it has met all the requirements that the EU asked of it for admission then it must be admitted - to do otherwise says to the world "do not make any agreements with the EU as they may unilaterally choose not to honour them".



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26912 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4239 times:

Pro's
------

Politically integrate Turkey into Europe

Freedom of movement for Turkish Citizens

More opportunities for current EU countries investing in Turkey

Human rights for Women and Gay/Lesbian communities.

Cons
-------

Human rights need to be sorted out

Corruption needs to be addressed

Turkey needs to implement its obligations to Cyprus in terms of the customs agreement it still has yet to adhere to despite guarantees to the EU.

Cyprus issue needs to be sorted out before entry. ( although its getting closer )

Civillian control of the military is a major pre condition set down by the EU. On the 8th July the Turkish government approved a law to give civillian courts the right to prosecute any military figure who tried to affect national security but how effective this will be time will tell. The military still has huge powers over the country.

Turkeys threats to Cyprus with regards legitimate oil explorations off the Greek side's Southern waters.

----------

Cyprus and Turkey clash over oil exploration

Thursday 11 June 2009

Cyprus said on 10 June it would press on with offshore oil exploration, despite strong objections from Turkey, and would open new fields for hydrocarbon research by early next year.

Cypriot Industry Minister Antonis Paschalides told Reuters in an interview that Turkey's decision to send warships to the area last year had not deterred investors eager to search for oil and gas in the eastern Mediterranean.

The first exploration deal was clinched with US company Noble Energy, which has already found a large gas reservoir off nearby Israel.

http://www.euractiv.com/en/enlargeme...ash-oil-exploration/article-183085


User currently offlineAlexEU From Serbia, joined Oct 2007, 1817 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4242 times:

I am absolutely against Turkey´s entry into EU.

1. They are not European country (apart from the 3% which is in Europe)
2. They are traditional European enemies
3. I don´t see how ordinary Europeans or Turks would benefit from this. It´s only the big companies that would use the Turkish control of the Bosphorus and the Black sea.
4. A lot of Turks would move to Europe.
5. They have occupied parts of Cyprus.
6. And the most important is that they are different faith.
I don´t have anything against Bosnian, Albanian or Azerbaijani entry into EU

Quoting Rara (Reply 8):
One day Turkey will join the EU. And why not. All differences can be overcome.

Sure. EU should also allow Japan and New Zealand to join the EU. Both of them have a good economy and we can overcome the differences.


User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8549 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4234 times:
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Quoting AlexEU (Reply 11):
6. And the most important is that they are different faith.



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 11):
I don´t have anything against Bosnian, Albanian or Azerbaijani entry into EU

and you dont see any inconsistency in those two statements ? Last time I checked most Bosniaks were (nominally) muslim - so why would you be happy to see one nominally muslim country in the EU but not the other ?

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 11):
Sure. EU should also allow Japan and New Zealand to join the EU

irrelevant - the EU has not made (nor is it likely to make ) a commitment to those countries regarding membership , but it has made a commitment to Turkey



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineLewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3623 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4216 times:

Turkey will eventually join the EU and should, as long as some outstanding issues regarding Greece, Cyprus and some reforms regarding free speech and human rights get settled. For example, I don't think Turkey has a chance in entering while having laws for 'offending turkishness'. Such things go exactly opposite to what the EU is about.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 1):
When I was in school; I was always told by the teachers that the people of Turkey were Ottomans, as to the Ottoman Empire, not Europeans.

That is true, but its more like what they are now compared to where they came from. Today's Turks are so much different that the Ottomans that came into the area hundreds of years ago and resembled more like Mongols that the Turks of today (according to a turkish friend of mine).

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 2):
As for 'cultural ' arguments I think these are just a convenient smokescreen - how much 'culturally' does Portugal have in common with Poland , or Finland with Malta , or the UK with Romania ?

Taking religion aside, modern turkish culture is quite similar to modern greek culture (inevitable after centuries of co-existence)


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26912 posts, RR: 58
Reply 14, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4212 times:



Quoting Lewis (Reply 13):
Taking religion aside, modern turkish culture is quite similar to modern greek culture (inevitable after centuries of co-existence)

Very true. Music and food all link us. Its funny that Greeks are actually not as opposed to eventual EU entry as Germans or Austrians .


User currently offlineRobertNL070 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2003, 4532 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4214 times:



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 9):
Krakow is the only city in the European Union which I have visited where I have been on the receiving end of homophobic abuse

Bump into a group of the wrong sort of young north African gentlemen on a Friday or Saturday night in Amsterdam and you could find yourself on the receiving end of homophobic abuse  Angry

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 11):
2. They are traditional European enemies

That's a very sweeping statement. Please explain.

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 11):
4. A lot of Turks would move to Europe.

They already have done. Germany and The Netherlands have significant Turkish communities (on the whole very nice people, but I loathe their food).

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 11):
6. And the most important is that they are different faith.
I don´t have anything against Bosnian, Albanian or Azerbaijani entry into EU

(my bold type)

Approximately 95% of Azerbaijanis are Muslim.



Youth is a gift of nature. Age is a work of art.
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10893 posts, RR: 37
Reply 16, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4197 times:

If the Brussels EU administration (I doubt there will be a popular referendum) and Euroepan Parliament decide to integrate Turkey what will we do with the thousands more migrant workers who will come into the richer countries like France, Germany, the UK, Italy, Denmark, the Netherlands, Finland, etc.?

Does not the EU have a high enough unemployment rate already? Do we need more qualified or unqualified workers to increase the EU unemployment figures? Do we need to have to pay more welfare and housing costs for all those who will move in with their families and have no chance to find any work? What if these people don't speak any the languages of the countries they move to, not one bit?

My question is what will we do with them if we cannot provide work and a decent living for all these people and their dependants when plenty of locals are put out on the streets because of hte economic downturn?



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User currently offlineLewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3623 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4197 times:



Quoting OA260 (Reply 14):

Very true. Music and food all link us. Its funny that Greeks are actually not as opposed to eventual EU entry as Germans or Austrians .

Of course we are not. Aside from the political BS between Turkey and Greece, I believe that the actual people can be friendly to each other, contrary to what most people believe.


User currently offlineElite From Hong Kong, joined Jun 2006, 2796 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4163 times:

I think the EU needs to stop their expansion - at least for the moment... I know that this argument may seem xenophobic, but the mass migration that might result could be less than desirable.

User currently offlineElite From Hong Kong, joined Jun 2006, 2796 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4137 times:

With regards to the culture point... it's hard to argue, and hard to explain. But the fact is that it exists - we can all pretend like nothing is happening, that we are all part of the big happy family known as the European Union, everyone gets along, the economies will be strong and the European people will be happy. But that is not the case.

The clash of cultures will happen, and it already has. The "Islamic culture" has already caused quite a storm on France, and I know for a fact that racial / ethnic divide in the UK is high. Turkey, unfortunately, does not fit into the EU well. To me, it seems like putting a Middle Eastern country in the EU... as I said, I can't really explain it well, but reality is different from theory.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26912 posts, RR: 58
Reply 20, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4093 times:



Quoting Lewis (Reply 17):
BS between Turkey and Greece, I believe that the actual people can be friendly to each other, contrary to what most people believe.

I have many Turkish and Turkish Cypriot friends and have been to Northern Cyprus twice and travelled it exstensively. Most people want to just get on with their lives. I have always been welcomed in Turkey and N. Cyprus, more so when I have said my Mothers family are from Athens. Like I said there is more anti Turkey joining the EU in Germany and Austria and France.


User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2148 posts, RR: 16
Reply 21, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4066 times:

Turkey will not join the EU this century - nor has the EU made any binding promise to Turkey in this regard.

There was an opening for Turkey in the late 90s, but then it was decided that eastern Europe would better fit the Union than Turkey.

The inclusion of the eastern European countries was the final expansion of the EU, and it was a similar expansion as Turkey would have been.

It almost killed the Union, we still haven't seen the end of it and the identity of the Union is up in the air. Add Turkey to this and then the EU is dead.

This idea is the driving force of many UK «eurosceptics» who relish the idea of killing the EU from within.

There are numerous fundamental things that also prevent Turkey from ever joining the EU, but I think the above is the most pressing issue.

Remember, Turkey is illegally occupying an EU nation and expects to be admitted into the Union. One has to ask: are they insane or just stupid?

asturias



Tonight we fly
User currently offline757MDE From Colombia, joined Sep 2004, 1753 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4061 times:



Quoting FatmirJusufi (Reply 30):
Another fact to tell: Borat (the movie) has been recorded in Romania! I'm not talking for the part when he goes to NY. 

But that was in a Roma village that as Romanian as it is, doesn´t necessarily portray the majority of Romania, even though it´s merits to have joined the EU so quick are moot as expressed by other members.

I loved that movie though.



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User currently offlineManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 3011 posts, RR: 47
Reply 23, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4032 times:
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I think Turkey doesn't have much in common with Europe, there are too many cultural differences, and therefore it shouldn't join. In my opinion the EU already went to far with Bulgaria and Romania, which is causing migration problems in some countries (think for example Italy).

But then again, Switzerland isn't in the EU and I hope it stays that way - although I'm afraid it won't. And with the Schengen treaty, it's as if we were in the EU already for what migration is concerned. Don't you enjoy politicians at work...



Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25077 posts, RR: 46
Reply 24, posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4010 times:

At the end of the day Turkey should and hopefully will join the EU.

Membership will benefit both sides. Having a strong economic and politically stable Turkey will provide the EU a huge new growing market for trade, and feedstock of a young workforce (keep in mind much of Europe's population is growing old fast, and labor will be an issue if countries are to grow in coming decades).

Also having Turkey a country that truly bridges East-West will provide Europe a bridge and hopefully further benefits into the Middle East and Caucasus.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 4):
Romania, Finland, Malta, Bulgaria are all majority Christian countries.
Turkey has a largest majority -almost all- muslims.
That is a major difference there.



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 11):
6. And the most important is that they are different faith.

So I guess the EU must be a "Christian" Club only according to your views.

That is a pretty sad statement, and goes against the openness and tolerance Europe preaches to the rest of the world.

EU turning its backs on Turkey primarily due to religious or ethnic grounds will send a terrible message particularly to the non Christian world. Even the US strongly supports Turkeys EU membership as it realizes a strong Turkey under the EU fold will benefit the world geopolitically.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
25 BigBadBoo : If you accept that one force behind creating the EU is to be able to challenge America's superpower status and China/India economically, then the EU
26 Post contains links MadameConcorde : Geographically speaking, Turkey is not a part of Europe, except for a small part of Northern Turkey by the Black Sea. This was once known as Pont Eux
27 OA260 : They do indeed support Turkish membership but for their own agenda
28 RobertNL070 : I suspect that the labour costs even in Turkey are too high for the average manufacturer. Having said that, I think I have a pair of Levi's jeans mad
29 Post contains links MadameConcorde : Some facts about Turkey's History. The former Ottoman Empire. The House of Seljuk was a branch of the Kınık Oğuz Turks who in the 10th century resi
30 LTU932 : What does the fact that the majority of Turkish citizens are Muslim have to do? Turkey is a secular country, religion has just as much power there as
31 Yellowstone : That's a rather specious argument. England and France were traditional enemies for centuries, and they get along fine now, the odd jab about eating f
32 LTU932 : And let's not forget the old rivalry between Germans and French. Both were enemies for years and after the war, both became the driving force in the
33 Post contains links MadameConcorde : Turkey Helen Chapin Metz, ed. Turkey: A Country Study. Washington: GPO for the Library of Congress, 1995. http://countrystudies.us/turkey/ Acknowledgm
34 FatmirJusufi : Seems to be a useful link. Thanks for sharing. Checking out right now. Fatmir
35 Yellowstone : Yep. I think the main lesson here is that if you want a country not to be your enemy, you should build strong trade relations with them - and letting
36 ME AVN FAN : the EU does not yet include countries of the Western Balkan and Ukraine and Russia, which ARE parts of Europe Turkey in the end will join the E.U., b
37 FatmirJusufi : Two different hard problems to be solved out, excluding the Armenian matter.
38 OA260 : IMHO thats not as big a problem as people make out. I mean the land part! The Oil drilling will be more of an issue if Turkey continues its stance. 1
39 RussianJet : Indeed Sir, which given I have said it is already too large should mean that Turkey certainly should not join.
40 Eaa3 : What about inviting Turkey and perhaps these other contries around Europe into the EEA, where they would have access to the common market without bei
41 OA260 : But the EEA is based on the same four freedoms of the EU and that includes freedom of movement which is what most are against. They could set up a sy
42 LAXintl : As far as trade Turkey since 1963 has had a privileged trade agreements with Europe already which was further elevated in 1995 by a customs union and
43 OHLHD : I do not need Turkey in the EU and I doubt they will come anytime soon. I have read that Austria is strongly opposing the entry and I can tell you why
44 Bahadir : I was in Germany for few days few weeks ago and I have never seen people treat me with the attitude of 'I can tell you off' in any other countries i h
45 LTU932 : Integration should be the key. They should respect the Western way of life, just as we respect their way of life. My father used to be an Italian gue
46 LAXintl : What does one mean with "integrate"? Its a rather slippery term. I don't feel integrate should mean one should ever loose ones identity, or heritage.
47 LTU932 : Of course not. Integration simply means that they adapt to society in the new country, learn to tolerate other people's cultural customs, learn to sp
48 TIA : So which continent should Turkey belong to then? By that same logic, Asia shouldn't accept Turkey either, since part of it is in Europe. And if Cypru
49 ME AVN FAN : - They defacto have recognized the Republic of Cyprus already in the Treaty of Zurich in 1960. Their present "refusal" is just a political play of no
50 AlexEU : But not de jure. Do you think that Cyprus will not veto Turkey´s entry into EU?? Federation is probably the best solution for Cyprus. This is more t
51 TIA : Half of Cyprus is of Turkish origin, so how is Cyprus more culturally European than Turkey? And what exactly makes Armenia more culturally European t
52 OzGlobal : That's because it costs the US NOTHING to do so and they seem to believe it would benefit THEM. I support Mexico being fully integrated into the Unit
53 OA260 : Well alot of immigrants get into ghettos in lots of European cities . Ever been to parts of Brussels? Or Paris or London? They dont actually have the
54 Lewis : Not really. Before the breakup, the Turkish population was less than 20% of the total and, even now, many Turks living in N. Cyprus are regarded as '
55 Post contains links OA260 : Young Turks a major obstacle to Turkey's EU goals "Anti-EU attitudes are most prevalent in our youth," said Yilmaz Esmer, a political science professo
56 Lewis : That will be the trend if the young people see that their country is not welcomed by the EU. If they cannot be closer to the west, they will turn tow
57 LAXintl : Respect is a two-way street. Sadly having lived in Europe I've always felt that average person and society as general have always looked down on immi
58 Pilotaydin : In all honesty, i don't want my country to join the EU, because it's just like joining any other club, i don't think i would benefit from anything dir
59 AM744 : NAFTA does not allow free movement of people, common currency, etc. so I guess American politicians should refrain from suggesting the EU doing somet
60 OA260 : Well with Malta /Cyprus/Romania/Bulgaria/Greece /Italy that certainly isnt true.
61 Virgin744 : One thing that's so disgusting about the EU is its hypocrisy and prejudice. Why dont these EU nations all come out and say in public what they've been
62 LAXintl : If that is the case, I guess Turkey is not an issue then..... but oh wait, we still have that pesky detail of Christianity or lack there of. Openly,
63 Post contains links ME AVN FAN : - Quite to the contrary, Turkey was and is one of the guarantee powers of the Republic of Cyprus in accordance with the treaty of Zurich --- as outli
64 Davehammer : While some of that may have a little basis in truth, the presence of the Baltic States, Greece Romania and Bulgaria kind of disproves the 'Western Eu
65 TIA : The big difference has to do with the fact that Turkish Cypriots are not self-reliant and they see a future for themselves only in the EU. I think it
66 MD11Engineer : As a German I'm definitely not Anglo-Saxon and Christian I ain't either (as most of my compatriots). The EU is not under the rule of the UK or Irelan
67 L410Turbolet : Cultural norms? Because in some places it is an acceptable norm to stab your sister to death to restore "honor" of the family or treat your wife as "
68 Virgin744 : Okay, let me clarify it since my wording was wrong; The EU is a Christian Westerrn European club that is exclusive to countries who fit the criteria
69 OA260 : Turks from Turkey the words from my Turkish Cypriot friends. Greeks and Greek Cypriots look like many peoples in the region. My cousin would not be o
70 LAXintl : Listen for extreme cases like honor killings, you have criminal laws to deal with them. I'm not sure you can ever remove all such notions that might
71 L410Turbolet : I do think. MSP and its infamous Somali cab drivers refusing service to passengers with alcohol in their bags or blind people with guide dogs? The Da
72 Asturias : Completely agree with you L410Turbolet. I've been watching your posts for a long time and always appreciated! Welcome to my RU list asturias
73 AlexEU : I can smell another war in Europe if Turkey joins.
74 LAXintl : Well if that was the case, I guess Germany should have not bestowed permanent residency and citizenship on them. Now many hold the same absolute lega
75 Post contains links OA260 : The Germans called them ''Gastarbeiter'' , Guest workers. Some interesting articles from the past : Turkish workers face uncertain future Forty years
76 LAXintl : Ya well you have whole generations born in Germany now, to whom Turkey is the foreign land. Cant deny the people exist. I'm sure they can. Just lets
77 AC888YOW : I didn't read the whole thread but, Not really. Turkey joining the EU means that Greece will not have to worry about and defend against the Turkish 't
78 OA260 : Im talking about Greeks as in my friends and family not governments. I dont see Turkey as a military threat. If Turkey attacks Greece they become at
79 MD11Engineer : I noticed that most opposition (out of principle, e.g. "Turkey is the traditional enemy of Europe") comes from countries, which either gained their in
80 BigBadBoo : Strikingly inaccurate. Germany is much younger than the United States; there was no "German" identity as we know today until the late 19th century. A
81 ME AVN FAN : Of course. I heard that in Northern Cyprus as well, and when I enquired, people generally told me that they would like to see Turks from more modern
82 OA260 : Exactly thats why we are not worried Greece is only interested in protecting its current borders, the current ones are hard enough to police as it is
83 ME AVN FAN : Greece and Turkey, upon two earthquakes, one in Turkey and one in Greece, have shown their ability to closely co-operate in a most encouraging way !
84 Lewis : NATO membership means nothing in this case. Both countries have been members for many decades and just look at how many times the two countries have
85 AlexEU : LOL...It was a metaphore. I didn´t mean the real war, I rather ment cultural, just like the ´´current war in France and UK´´.
86 OA260 : The Greek military is more under control than the Turkish military thats for sure. Also the number of air space incursions by Turkish war planes is s
87 ME AVN FAN : There is no "cultural war" in sight, regardless of EU membership or not-yet-membership. Turkey will need some special arrangements on an interim-basi
88 OA260 : The military in Turkey can take over the country at any time and have threatened to do so many times and not just years ago quite recently. They are
89 AM744 : Wow, we're talking here about a well founded country with a mostly unchanged Constitution dating back 200+ years!!! Probably the oldest stable modern
90 MD11Engineer : In any case, it will probably still take at least 10 years until Turkey fullfills the EU membership criteria. But, due to all promises in the past (a
91 ME AVN FAN : Whatever the role of the Turkish army command in the Cyprus matter may be, the real problem in the Cyprus matter is the intransigence and stubborness
92 OA260 : Not at all . Your opinion does not relate to the reality on the ground. I know refugees from both sides and its not right for the Turks to think that
93 MD11Engineer : We are not talking about forms of government, but about regional customs, traditions and tribalism. The governments might have changed, but the tradi
94 AlexEU : Romania and Bulgaria together don´t have the population and area of the half of Turkey. And the more developed cities in Turkey are Istanbul, Ankara
95 Prebennorholm : Assuming that's correct, then we have the definitive show stopper. Of course. Turkey has to solve the Cyprus issue in order to be considered a good g
96 Lewis : Yeah you are so right. The Greek side is being unrealistic in its demands before accepting unification of the island. Greek Cypriots wanting back THE
97 OA260 : I know the mass grave recently on 11th August of missing Greek Cypriots didn't really make the international news but there needs to be clear Interna
98 Pilotaydin : im sorry what....?? where exactly is that?
99 AlexEU : Fully agree. I just wanted to say that Turkey is not only Istanbul, Antalya and other tourist destinations.
100 Lewis : I have been abroad for the past few months so I first read it online on BBC.
101 Aircatalonia : The EU doesn't give a crap about real democracy, human rights or social wellfare in its member states. As long as it is not too flagrant (a dictatorsh
102 Post contains links and images OA260 :
103 ME AVN FAN : No no no, the "official" Greek Cypriots, and I even know two of those who lost their homes but are surprisingly tolerant nevertheless, do demand that
104 Post contains links and images ME AVN FAN : http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Autonomous_Region_Kurdistan_en.png the map above shows what is the matter. It shows inside the "official" bord
105 MD11Engineer : Well, some more radical Kurdish groups define the borders of Kurdistam quite a bit further west, some including Ankara. I see this in a similar way a
106 Post contains links OA260 : They got compensated and have rights to free healthcare and state benefits something unheard of for Greeks in the North. UN still delivers aid to sma
107 Lewis : No support given from the side of Turkey for their endeavour and my point is that Cypriots were not ready to let this go and sign any offer that was
108 AlexEU : The Republic of Cyprus has the right to prevent TRNC reunion until their needs have been met. E.g. why would they allow TRNC to integrate into Cyprus
109 Bahadir : My last reply to this thread was deleted as it was declared off topic, by a European.. go figure.. The point that I was trying to make was EU members
110 OzGlobal : If your nationality matches the US flag you are displaying, "going on an on", as you suggest, would put you on very thin ice with respect to dirty in
111 Babybus : I agree Turkey is not and will not be ready, financially or culturally, to join the EU for at least another 15-20 years. I agree. Why not let Russia,
112 Lewis : It doesn't matter who deleted it, it was off topic and I explained it to you why before my post was deleted as well. And as I said in my post, I can
113 OA260 : True no land back to refugees no EU entry EVER! It makes a mockery of the EU if this happens. I Brussels accept Turkey into the EU and Northern Cypru
114 ME AVN FAN : There is nothing about "fault" of witnesses. That people get old and die is nature and not "their" fault. And that the stance of the Turkish judiciar
115 Post contains links OA260 : This wont help Turkeys December EU accession report ! Turkey convicted in missing Greek Cypriots case The highest body of the European Court of Human
116 ME AVN FAN : If comparing the findings of the UN and of that court, it becomes obvious that most of the missing were missing since the violence of 1963, and that
117 Stitchlover01 : Turkey will not join the EU until he gives the KURDs freedom , Kurds make up most of turkey and for the past hundread years they have been killed and
118 Post contains links OA260 : The Kurds have had a rough time. Iraq also abused them. I went to school with two Kurdish people. They went back to Iraq after the Iran - Iraq war an
119 ME AVN FAN : No, even if you use maps of Kurdish organisations it is a small southeastern section of Turkey. But the territorial integrity of their Republic is a
120 Post contains links AlexEU : Another issue is Hagia Sophia in Istanbul. If it doesn´t revurt to the status of church, it may represent the victory of Turks. Here is a petition fo
121 FatmirJusufi : Hagia Sophia has cleared its status. It's not known as a mosque either as a church anymore. Now it's a museum. What will happen if would revert its s
122 MD11Engineer : So what? Some hundred years ago the Turkish Muslims won a war. Get over it. Jan
123 Danny : They like to call themselves as such but the fact is the majority of their territory is in Asia. I think the Cysprus issue will remain one of the mai
124 LAXintl : One of the issues with the Kurds is that a violent segment seemingly cannot live within the rules and societal norms of the countries they live in. "
125 OA260 : " target=_blank>http://www.hagiasophiablog.com/conta...e.php I actually dont agree with that. Its a tourist place now , I have been twice. You can st
126 ME AVN FAN : it now, since the days of Mustafa Kemal, is a museum. It no longer is a Mosque either. and the Turkish Republic should do so as well. As it in fact h
127 Stitchlover01 : The reasons kurds want their freedom is , they were an independent country , The country itself was splited into four in 1912, the country was splited
128 Lewis : You need to Greece with the Republic of Cyprus. They are the ones doing the talks and they will have to accept/reject any proposals. Greece may have
129 LAXintl : Man talk about revisionist history. You realize in 1912 there was even no independent stand alone Turkey, Iraq or Syria right? It was all part of the
130 Stitchlover01 : the country was splited into four at the time , so maybe turkey didnt exist but still got devided , thats the importance.
131 LAXintl : What country? --- there simply was no "independent" Kurdish country in 1912 to split as you claim. The same way there was none the dozen or so nation
132 ME AVN FAN : > Kurdistan was never independent + up to 1918 part of the Ottoman Empire > Syria and Iraq up to 1918 were part of the Ottoman Empire > Iran had noth
133 Post contains links OA260 : Conservative Merkel Captures 2nd Term In Germany The changeover may eventually mean a tougher approach to Turkey's European Union membership bid, whic
134 AlexEU : Yes but it should be returned to the original status. But they are not preserving it...they have turned it into a museum which it certainly shouldn´
135 ME AVN FAN : Exactly. They in fact even could condemn it, just together with other things like the anti-Arab massacres in the same time in Damascus and Beirut. It
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