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Oliver Stone Has A Film About Hugo Chavez  
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17829 posts, RR: 46
Posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1684 times:

"South of the Border," which had its world premiere at the Venice film festival this week, portrays Chavez as a champion of the poor, and includes interviews with the leaders of Brazil, Bolivia, Argentina, Paraguay (!!!!!), Ecuador and Cuba."

http://www.reuters.com/article/entertainmentNews/idUSL72457020090908


E pur si muove -Galileo
41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGulfStreamGirl From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 203 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1678 times:

That’s EXACTLY what he is , but most people get their opinions on main stream media about Chavez so that would explain why not many people KNOW the real truth about him .

John Pilger who makes great documentaries made a great one about what happened in Venezuela , its available on Google video for free called "War on Democracy". The War on Democracy' was John Pilger's first major film for the cinema. Set in Latin America and the US, it explores the historic and current relationship of Washington with countries such as Venezuela, Bolivia and Chile.

http://video.google.ca/videosearch?q...en&emb=1&aq=0&oq=the+war+on+democ#

Watch and LEARN people






  

[Edited 2009-09-08 10:54:59]


If it wasn't for women ...there would be no such thing as Man :o)
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1660 times:



Quoting GulfStreamGirl (Reply 1):
That’s EXACTLY what he is , but most people get their opinions on main stream media about Chavez so that would explain why not many people KNOW the real truth about him .

That's exactly NOT what he is. Chávez only uses the poor to win elections. He basically "bribes" them with free meals and hot soup, but during an administration, he completely forgets about them. They're, simply put, a means to an end, nothing more and nothing else.

Chávez has blatant disregard for the democratic process, his government made ACTIVE efforts to restrict freedom of speech, people who were identifed as those who voted against him in the recall election became second class citizens, during the 2002 riots he was responsible for the murder of dissidents who were peacefully marching to Miraflores presidential palace, and he's making alliances with people such as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Kim Jong-Il and other dictators. And even with regards to the last presidential elections, despite what international observers have said, the possibility that these elections were rigged is still very big.

As for Oliver Stone, his film is nothing but pro-Chávez propaganda. He just lost my respect.


User currently offlineEZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4968 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1656 times:



Quoting GulfStreamGirl (Reply 1):
KNOW the real truth about him

which part, the one where he attempted a military coup in 1993?



Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
User currently offlineTIA From Albania, joined Mar 2006, 524 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1643 times:

It's one thing to have extreme leftist political beliefs and supporting socialism, and another making movies that glorify dictators.

User currently offline757MDE From Colombia, joined Sep 2004, 1753 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1609 times:

As much as I find Chavez amusing, especially when he tries to insult in English, I got to say that you don't seem to know what you talk about, GulfStreamGirl and in spite of what you've been saying it's you who's been kind of brainwashed by the media.


I gladly accept donations to pay for flight hours! This thing draws man...
User currently offlineGulfStreamGirl From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 203 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1598 times:



Quoting 757MDE (Reply 8):
As much as I find Chavez amusing, especially when he tries to insult in English, I got to say that you don't seem to know what you talk about, GulfStreamGirl and in spite of what you've been saying it's you who's been kind of brainwashed by the media

And your proof of this is ??? , as i said , its been PROVEN that he wasnt responsible for the shootings that day in 2002, but i guess your a fan of what the United States has done to MANY South American countries ridding them of thier natural resources through american corperations , helping them put in place the World bank and IMF , over throwing DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED goverments and so on

yes IM the one that been brain washed ..lol , u REALLY need a history lesson



If it wasn't for women ...there would be no such thing as Man :o)
User currently offline757MDE From Colombia, joined Sep 2004, 1753 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1572 times:



Quoting GulfStreamGirl (Reply 13):
Its proven by video seen in that documentary , the corperate controlled media in venezuala NEVER showed some scenes that are in that documentary i wonder why...

and ohhhh im soooo sorry my spelling is sooo badddd

That's not proof of anything. There are some "documentaries" showing the opposite too.
And yes, you should be sorry about that, especially if you wish to give people "history lessons".



I gladly accept donations to pay for flight hours! This thing draws man...
User currently offlineLH459 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 886 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1574 times:



Quoting GulfStreamGirl (Reply 10):
as i said , its been PROVEN that he wasnt responsible for the shootings that day in 2002,

Capital letters do not constitute proof. If you want to add credibility to your arguments, I would strongly suggest you link a credible source for your assertions. Vague references to a documentary do not suffice.

Idealism is a very dangerous thing: it can prevent someone from seeing the truth, even as it plays out in front of them. Many progressives in the United States initially supported Chavez, but his regime has become steadily more authoritarian over the years and now represents an active threat to democracy in all of Latin America. His closure of radio stations and television stations speaks for itself!
I would recommend that you read "Modern Latin America," by Thomas Skidmore & Peter Smith. You will realize that Chavez is but one of a long line of caudillos (i.e. strong men), and the sooner Latin America is rid of caudillismo the better!
For what its worth, I hold a degree in Latin American studies, I wrote my thesis on the fall of Allende, and I am no fan of imperialism. Hugo Chavez is not who or what you think he is.



"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is temporary; the evil it does is permanent" - Ghandi
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17829 posts, RR: 46
Reply 9, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1555 times:



Quoting GulfStreamGirl (Reply 13):
the corporate controlled media in Venezuela

Eh?? Chavez controls the media in Venezuela. He's promising to shut down more as we speak...
http://www.reuters.com/article/mediaNews/idUSN0520744720090905



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineGulfStreamGirl From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 203 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1535 times:

Quoting LH459 (Reply 15):
Capital letters do not constitute proof. If you want to add credibility to your arguments, I would strongly suggest you link a credible source for your assertions. Vague references to a documentary do not suffice

Well in that documentary it shows footage of what all the main stream media was portaying as chavez supporters firing on innocent people , well thats not what happened , its far from a VAGUE refrence to a documentary . Watch it for yourself ,all i ask is u take 5 minutes , start it from 22:30 in and it explains what ACTUALLY happened ...Especially at 24:30

http://video.google.ca/videosearch?q=the+war+on+democracy&hl=en&emb=1#

I wonder why the Corperate media in venezuala didnt show whats shown in the documentary ...makes me wonder why that SAME media is now suffering conseqences for its actions during that time

[Edited 2009-09-08 14:37:11]


If it wasn't for women ...there would be no such thing as Man :o)
User currently offlineEZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4968 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1532 times:

Dear Chavez supporters,

just in case it went unnoticed; what about Chavez leading a coup in 93?

And let's talk about the fact that he is the only moron calling for war because of the US bases in Colombia, or that it is a fact that he funded a few South American election, or that he supports FARC, or that he criticizes the US and yet it's because of his business with the US he actually makes some money.

I'm no lover of many US foering policies, particularly those regarding several dictatorships in the 70's and 80's, but not seeing Chavez as a semi (for now) dictator is simply not opening your eyes.



Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
User currently offlineGulfStreamGirl From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 203 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1529 times:



Quoting 757MDE (Reply 14):
That's not proof of anything. There are some "documentaries" showing the opposite too.
And yes, you should be sorry about that, especially if you wish to give people "history lessons".

have you even watched it ??? , the media MADE it look like the people on the bridge were the ones SHOOTING the innocent people ...those were the pictures around the world ....but if you actually watch ....it SHOWS YOU that nobody was below that bridge they were actually firing in SELF DEFENSE...but of course the corporate controlled media in Venezuela and AROUND THE WORLD never showed that footage ,, they chose to conveniently edit it out .

And I'm not trying to give u a history lesson , just asking people to open their eyes to something they may have not realized or seen.



If it wasn't for women ...there would be no such thing as Man :o)
User currently offline757MDE From Colombia, joined Sep 2004, 1753 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1512 times:



Quoting GulfStreamGirl (Reply 17):
Well in that documentary it shows footage of what all the main stream media was portaying as chavez supporters firing on innocent people , well thats not what happened , its far from a VAGUE refrence to a documentary . Watch it for yourself ,all i ask is u take 5 minutes , start it from 22:30 in and it explains what ACTUALLY happened ...Especially at 24:30

That is shown in that documentary, and it may or may not be the whole truth of that specific issue. My point is not really with the issue of the shootings as I expressed earlier, but with Chavez as a whole.

Quoting GulfStreamGirl (Reply 17):
I wonder why the Corperate media in venezuala didnt show whats shown in the documentary ...makes me wonder why that SAME media is now suffering conseqences for its actions during that time

The media are no saints, and pretty much every channel has their leaning and "soften" what is against it, just look at Fox in the US or RCN here in Colombia, but to talk about corporate media and stuff in the Venezuela of Chavez, where radio stations are closed as a normal occurrence and where the TV stations that are not pro Chavez get even physical attacks on their infrastructure, letting alone the ever coming threats of closure just for the sake of it is something I don't quite buy.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 18):
what about Chavez leading a coup in 93?

So much for democracy, huh?

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 18):
And let's talk about the fact that he is the only moron calling for war because of the US bases in Colombia, or that it is a fact that he funded a few South American election, or that he supports FARC, or that he criticizes the US and yet it's because of his business with the US he actually makes some money.

Yes, even though it's not really "US bases" in Colombia but access to already existing Colombian bases for intelligence and AWACS Airplanes and the like. I can't say I really agree with that, but the whole issue has been exaggerated by the usual suspects way too much. It's not like there wasn´t US military presence in Colombia in the first place, in practice things are going to remain quite the same in that aspect.

Ecuador is not really that far from Venezuela than Colombia, and the Manta base did exist from before Chavez was president, why didn't he go telling his mumbo jumbo to Ecuador then back in the day? How come a few more soldiers and airplanes in Colombia is now a "threat to the whole continent" when having a full US base in Ecuador wasn´t?

Quoting GulfStreamGirl (Reply 19):
have you even watched it ??? , the media MADE it look like the people on the bridge were the ones SHOOTING the innocent people ...those were the pictures around the world ....but if you actually watch ....it SHOWS YOU that nobody was below that bridge they were actually firing in SELF DEFENSE...but of course the corporate controlled media in Venezuela and AROUND THE WORLD never showed that footage ,, they chose to conveniently edit it out .

And I'm not trying to give u a history lesson , just asking people to open their eyes to something they may have not realized or seen.

Again, I don't know about that, I wasn´t there and any of the sides could be the liar, because then again, and as I said, I know the media are no saints and I am actually quite cynical of most of it.
But I can really tell that who needs to realize and see something is you, Chavez is not what you think he is, and again, this coming from first hand experience and not from the media, whichever side it may lean to.



I gladly accept donations to pay for flight hours! This thing draws man...
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17829 posts, RR: 46
Reply 14, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1504 times:



Quoting GulfStreamGirl (Reply 17):
the Corperate media in venezuala

You keep saying that as if there is such thing. The Venezuelan media is Chavez, and every day it becomes more so.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineGulfStreamGirl From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 203 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks ago) and read 1493 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Thread starter):
You keep saying that as if there is such thing. The Venezuelan media is Chavez, and every day it becomes more so.

There was a such thing and what did they do , they tried to FRAME Chavez when the shootings happened , and as Ive said many times its documented in that documentary. The corporate media not only in Venezuela but around the world never showed certain images , all they would show are Chavez supporters firing off of a bridge then right after that, show images of the dead and wounded, they FAILED to show what the people on the bridge were ACTUALLY shooting AT , there were no protesters below or on that street where the bridge was located. The people on the bridge shooting (images portrayed around the world as Chavez killing innocent people) were actually shooting in SELF DEFENSE , so when u have media that's OUTRIGHT trying to FRAME you , can you blame Chavez for holding them liable for what they did????



If it wasn't for women ...there would be no such thing as Man :o)
User currently offline757GB From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 678 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks ago) and read 1477 times:



Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 18):
or that it is a fact that he funded a few South American election

Newest chapter on that: it was discovered that a company here in Uruguay was exporting books (about 50,000 of them) to Venezuela... that's all good and fine, except that the price of each book was about 6 dollars, but Chavez was paying 498 dollars each!  Wow!

The whole thing is being investigated, but through this "sale" he's giving about 32 million dollars in support of his favorite candidate for the upcoming elections in October. I have to admit but it's more subtle than sending briefcases full of money like he did with Argentina, but the tactic is the same.

About links, proof and all that, actually you just have to listen to the guy. NOBODY halfway objective would think of Chavez as a hero. More than anything he is a menace to the region. If you are a hero and you know you are defending democracy, there is no need to close radio or TV stations. It's so predictable it's almost boring.



God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
User currently offlineGulfStreamGirl From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 203 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks ago) and read 1470 times:



Quoting GulfStreamGirl (Reply 1):
The whole thing is being investigated, but through this "sale" he's giving about 32 million dollars in support of his favorite candidate for the upcoming elections in October. I have to admit but it's more subtle than sending briefcases full of money like he did with Argentina, but the tactic is the same

That happens every where in the world where people are elected , corporations and lobbyists have done that for many years although in different methods


 conehead 



If it wasn't for women ...there would be no such thing as Man :o)
User currently offline757GB From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 678 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks ago) and read 1466 times:

True, but like I said all you have to do is listen to the guy with a little objectivity.
I respect everyone's opinion. I have to say though that I disagree completely with your view.
The guy is popular with the anti US crowd, but if there is anyone who will bring South America to war, that's Hugo Chavez. He doesn't deserve one ounce of respect in my book.



God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 19, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks ago) and read 1478 times:



Quoting GulfStreamGirl (Reply 11):
The USA isnt some country trying to make the world better ok , they put in power those who will basically do as they say for THIER own interests

Oh yeah? What about statements that the US makes, claiming to be the pillar of democracy in the world? And what about the Iraq war? One of their goals was to get Saddam out of power and establish a democracy, similarly in Afghanistan. The US is an interventionist nation, they just intervene when it's in their best interest, and this includes the possibility of using the military to topple a foreign regime, but that's a different thread because otherwise, I'd be opening a can of worms that has nothing to do with the issue at hand, which is showing you that Lieutenant Colonel Hugo Chávez Frías is a warmonging dictator, who is continually eliminating civil liberties (most of all freedom of speech and freedom of the press) in Venezuela.

Quoting GulfStreamGirl (Reply 11):
Hugo Chavez is agaisnt The American Empire , and rightly so

No, Chávez serves his own interests. Apart from what I said earlier about Chávez, one of the things that he's genuinely interessted is getting as much of his country's petrodollars into his own pockets for his personal fortune. Hell, if it wasn't for those petrodollars he may likely not be in power anymore.


User currently offlineGulfStreamGirl From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 203 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1451 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Thread starter):
No, Chávez serves his own interests. Apart from what I said earlier about Chávez, one of the things that he's genuinely interested is getting as much of his country's petrodollars into his own pockets for his personal fortune. Hell, if it wasn't for those petrodollars he may likely not be in power anymore.

Well for one the people of Venezuela now have a constitution thanks to Chavez , giving even the poorest of the poor rights that they couldn't imagine ever having. The poor also have access to free health care and education , that's also something that they NEVER had before,i wonder why so many of the Venezuelan people have so much support for him, but yet Chavez is some EVIL dictator , and the whole population just has no clue . Venezuela was more corrupt when the old regime was in power , that's a fact , only difference is now those big American corporations aren't reaping the profits from the Venezuelan people as they were in the old regime , i wonder why the CIA sent money to support the coup , and that's FACT.

Even if hes lining his pockets at least hes still doing something for the people that had NOTHING at all before in the old regime , health care and education for people that never had access to it before is a pretty good thing . life in the barrios has alot more HOPE then it ever did in Venezuela



If it wasn't for women ...there would be no such thing as Man :o)
User currently offline757GB From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 678 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1442 times:

Reforms to the Constitution are a typical move to perpetuate themselves in power.
That's what Zelaya tried to do as well. As soon as they enough power behind them they try to change the rules in their favor. I'm not in favor of coups. I'm just pointing out the pattern.

It would be good to hear from members in Venezuela. They're living it and they're the ones who can give a clearer picture (maybe somebody who posted here is on site; I'm just going by the flags).

A typical behavior from that type of government is the perpetual propaganda effort.
You can go ahead and eat it with a spoon, or you can question and seek the truth behind the propaganda. As I say time and time again, I don't like others to do my thinking for me.



God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 22, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1441 times:

Quoting GulfStreamGirl (Reply 27):
Well for one the people of Venezuela now have a constitution thanks to Chavez

Venezuelans always had a constitution. The problem was whether it was applied or not. Just remember: Chávez wants to convert himself into a "President for Life", or at least extend his term for up to 30 years or so, and he had referendums on changing the very constitutional term limit that he had put into the constitution in the first place.

Quoting GulfStreamGirl (Reply 27):
i wonder why so many of the Venezuelan people have so much support for him

Have you met Luis? His username on this site is Luisde8cd, I don't know if he still reads this forum, but he's one of those people who lived through the problems Venezuela has and is still going through right now under Chávez. Most of those Chávez supporters are paid to support him in public anyway.

And those poor people don't even know what's truely going on, because they don't have access to the media like we do, and even the newspapers are so censored by the government, that it's like (to use something from the experience of my country) seeing for yourself that the DDR is near bankruptcy and dependent on hard currency from Western nations, and comparing this experience to the lies the party controlled newspaper "Neues Deutschland" has written about the DDR being successful thanks to its socialistic economy and "only" the cooperation of the Soviet Union and its satellite states.

To me, you're nothing but an apologist of Chávez, and for all I know, if the DDR (East Germany) was still around, you'd probably deny the fact that people who try to escape the hell that the DDR is are being shot at the border, and support people like Ulbricht and Honecker blindly.

[Edited 2009-09-08 17:03:21]

User currently offlineAGM100 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 5407 posts, RR: 17
Reply 23, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1440 times:



Quoting 757GB (Reply 25):
The guy is popular with the anti US crowd, but if there is anyone who will bring South America to war, that's Hugo Chavez. He doesn't deserve one ounce of respect in my book.

And don't forget popular with allot of supports of our current administration as well. Weird the love affair with Castro , Hugo and the leftists displayed by some operators within this administration. Check the comments of our new FCC director ... sad.

Hugo is a socialist ( Bolavarist ) all dictators come too power with the ideals of populism and wealth distribution . It always ends the same ... economic devastation and a iron fist of suppression to keep the peace. See why some of us fight against the administrations actions here in the US... it is the same ...just packaged a little different.

I hope the Venezuelan people can over though this guy and restore real reforms and freedom .



You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
User currently offline757GB From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 678 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1431 times:



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 30):

I know what you mean... some of that anti US crowd I referred to is actually from the States.



God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
25 SANAV8R : Yeah any man that has a eight-hour weekly talk show is not self-absorbed. He seems a little paranoid. He is always wearing bullet-proof vests, claimin
26 LTU932 : 8 hours is nothing. I recall that when he was in his prime, Fidel could hold a speech for over 12 hours, basically indoctrinating people with it.
27 GulfStreamGirl : Have u seen what media is like in Venezuela , back in 2002 they had plenty of freedom of press they were constantly bad talking Chavez , everyday the
28 LTU932 : It is their right. Nobody is going to arrest me for talking bad about our Madame Chancellor, or our President. You may respect the office, but that d
29 757GB : Sorry... is this the Anet version of "Alo Presidente"? (that's what Chavez's regular radio broadcast is called) Obviously you sympathize with him, but
30 GulfStreamGirl : I'm not saying that they should be denied free speech nor abolish any media that bad talks him , but when you have major Venezuelan media conglomerat
31 LTU932 : Don't they show that dumb show on television as well? Just a pointer: I suggest you always mention whom you're referring to as sympathiser, just to a
32 LTU932 : OK, so you seem to believe that everything is a big conspiracy led by the US government (or at least that's what your post is suggesting). Newsflash:
33 Maverick623 : I can't think of an example of a single state-run medium that didn't spread lies and disinformation. While I can agree that big corporate media is al
34 Homer71 : I don't know about the REST of you, but there is NO DOUBT, that GulfStreamGirl is my FAVORITE poster on ANET....hands DOWN. I think I WILL become Cana
35 EZEIZA : foreign corporations? Could not agree more. And yet he makes a living out of the empire, doesn't he? Who does he sell his oil to? How's that for iron
36 Avianca : are you sure.... you have here even to "pay" in order to not stand the complete day in a line of a bank... if you do not pay the cashier ... you wont
37 Post contains links QANTAS077 : I used to think that about Chavez, but now I tend to think that he uses the poor for his own gain. check this out, Pilger is a great Australian journ
38 GulfStreamGirl : Well i didn't say that having ONLY state controlled media is a good thing , i just said that the media THAT is not having their licenses reinstated a
39 GulfStreamGirl : I don't think EVERYTHING is a big conspiracy and yes 9 11 was very real , but so are the QUESTIONS that many people have ABOUT THAT DAY, and Kennedy
40 EZEIZA : GSG, seriously, do you avoid this on purpose? Chavez attempted a coup in 1993! What he criticizes about Honduras now .. well .. he did it! How cna you
41 LipeGIG : As this thread was not an example of good discussion, it's now closed. Any posts after this advice, if any and due to system lag, will be deleted.
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