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Boy, 12, Turns Into Girl  
User currently offlineManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 3007 posts, RR: 48
Posted (4 years 7 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4124 times:
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http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...643393/Boy-12-turns-into-girl.html

Quote:
BOY aged 12 turned up at school as a GIRL - after changing sex during the summer holidays.
Teachers called an emergency assembly to order fellow pupils to treat him as female.

The lad, whose parents have changed his name to a girl's by deed poll, arrived in a dress with long hair in ribboned pigtails. He is preparing for sex-swap surgery.

What do you think? My opinion is that it's absolutely irresponsible for parents to endorse something like this - we're talking about a 12 year old kid! Sex reassignment is hard enough for adults. This doesn't make any sense.


Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (4 years 7 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4017 times:



Quoting ManuCH (Thread starter):
My opinion is that it's absolutely irresponsible for parents to endorse something like this

Well the article did say the kid has been wanting to be a girl for a while. It doesn't seem like the parents forced it upon him.

I don't like how the whole situation is being handled though. I loathe PC and "sensitivity training" but now this poor kid is gonna be subjected to bullying and ridicule. If I was the parents I would've removed the kid from school, due the surgery, and then put the kid in some other school.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18675 posts, RR: 58
Reply 2, posted (4 years 7 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3997 times:



Quoting ManuCH (Thread starter):

What do you think? My opinion is that it's absolutely irresponsible for parents to endorse something like this - we're talking about a 12 year old kid! Sex reassignment is hard enough for adults. This doesn't make any sense.

In the United States, the general policy is that, in the absence of a congenital abnormality of the genitalia, sexual reassignment surgery should not be performed on patients under the age of 18.

There is an argument, however, for the above procedure. If the child has been adamant from a young age, in spite of socialization to the contrary, that he is actually a girl, then it would be very traumatic to force him to go through male puberty.

Here's the current thinking into what is going on in this disorder. During prenatal development (in the womb), the brain is either exposed to testosterone or it is not. If it is not exposed, it develops into a female brain. If it is exposed, it develops into a male brain. Male and female brains are inherently different at birth and at all points after that.

In this case, this boy's brain must have completely failed to masculinize (for whatever reason), leading to a female brain stuck in a male body. This is thought to be the underlying Gender Identity Disorder. It's very, very rare. It is diagnosed clinically by patients reporting a history of "always knowing" that they were the wrong sex.

Either way, SRS is a horribly traumatic experience, but so is not getting SRS. It's a terrible, terrible disorder and I urge everyone to learn about it before making judgements about these unfortunate people.


User currently offlineSANAV8R From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 215 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 7 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3978 times:

I think it is way too young for such a drastic procedure and life change. I mean dressing as a girl is one thing, but a sex change at 12? I mean they haven't even developed yet. Maybe they should encourage him to wait until he's older to consider the procedure again so that he doesn't make any hasty moves, plus, if he would wait the people around him and his peers would be able to comprehend this change better than schoolchildren who might be confused enough.

User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 4, posted (4 years 7 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3973 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
In the United States, the general policy is that, in the absence of a congenital abnormality of the genitalia, sexual reassignment surgery should not be performed on patients under the age of 18.

It's the same in Germany IIRC, only that the wording says that it cannot be performed before the age of 18. I remember a case, where the boy felt like a girl and was taking hormone therapy until such time that he/she is old enough. Until then, someone who does want a sex change, can only take hormone therapy.

Quoting SANAV8R (Reply 3):
I think it is way too young for such a drastic procedure

So do I.  checkmark 


User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6545 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (4 years 7 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3962 times:
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Some parent want attention drawn upon themselves, and sometime children provide the best vehicle to do so.

Obviously the parents enabled the kid to get to this point.



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineFLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (4 years 7 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3962 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
During prenatal development (in the womb), the brain is either exposed to testosterone or it is not.

Interesting. So going by this theory, by default, all fetuses have, or would have, a "female" brain? And it's just due to lack of testosterone? Estrogen doesn't come into play at all?


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18675 posts, RR: 58
Reply 7, posted (4 years 7 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3954 times:



Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 6):

Interesting. So going by this theory, by default, all fetuses have, or would have, a "female" brain? And it's just due to lack of testosterone? Estrogen doesn't come into play at all?

Yes. In mammals, female seems to be the default state. In the absence of a masculinizing stimulus, the body and brain will develop as female. In other species, male might be the default state.

Estrogens are important in the regulation of the female reproductive system, but not in turning a developing fetus into a female. After all, every single fetus develops in an estrogen bath (a uterus). In fact, at birth, some female babies have bloody discharge and some even make milk from their nipples because of the effects of maternal estrogens.


User currently offlineFLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (4 years 7 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3949 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
In fact, at birth, some female babies have bloody discharge

Well, that explains a LOT now Big grin


User currently offlineManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 3007 posts, RR: 48
Reply 9, posted (4 years 7 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3942 times:
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Thank you Doc for the interesting explanation about the disorder.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
It's a terrible, terrible disorder and I urge everyone to learn about it before making judgements about these unfortunate people.

Just for the record, in case my original post was mis-interpreted, I'm not judging these people. I only think that parents shouldn't endorse (but neither repress!) this kind of wish. Wouldn't it be better to just "let live"? I mean, endorsing a name and identity change (even without surgery) is a risky choice for parents. What if they were all wrong? Isn't it best left to when the kid turns 18? When you're 12, I think it's hard to take decisions. Or not?

My argument is only about responsibilities. I absolutely don't want to judge people with Gender Identity Disorder. But what if the parents are wrong and the 12 year old wasn't really sure of what he wanted?

These are real questions, no provocations, as it's a very unknown field for me (and for most people I suppose).



Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18675 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (4 years 7 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3881 times:



Quoting ManuCH (Reply 9):


My argument is only about responsibilities. I absolutely don't want to judge people with Gender Identity Disorder. But what if the parents are wrong and the 12 year old wasn't really sure of what he wanted?

It's very true and that's why I would be ethically uncomfortable with taking a knife to the kid. But there are two sides to this argument and I am presenting the other side. I don't think a surgeon who does this should necessarily be de-licensed and carted off to flip burgers for the rest of his life. As our understanding of GID changes, so will our treatment. For all we know, doing the surgery before puberty kicks in might be standard of care in a few decades.

At this point, it seems as if she is still pre-op. I use the female pronoun because the general consensus is that when a patient assumes a female role, dress, and identity, she should assume a female pronoun (or vice-versa).

Now, let me drag the thread off-topic for a moment, but every day, literally tens of thousands of infants just a few days are subjected to an irreversible and purely cosmetic procedure that has no clear health benefits. This procedure is done under minimal anesthesia and, of course, without the consent of the patient (it's hard to get a child less than 10 days old to sign the forms).

Can anyone guess what this surgical procedure is?

If it's not OK to perform elective surgery on a 12yo who requests it, why is it OK to perform elective surgery on a newborn who doesn't want it?


User currently offlineDtwclipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (4 years 7 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3863 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
Can anyone guess what this surgical procedure is?

I know, I know! A circumsision. (remind me later to tell you about the Mohel who kept his tips)


User currently offlineSmithAir747 From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 1619 posts, RR: 29
Reply 12, posted (4 years 7 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3854 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
Now, let me drag the thread off-topic for a moment, but every day, literally tens of thousands of infants just a few days are subjected to an irreversible and purely cosmetic procedure that has no clear health benefits. This procedure is done under minimal anesthesia and, of course, without the consent of the patient (it's hard to get a child less than 10 days old to sign the forms).

Can anyone guess what this surgical procedure is?

Circumcision?

SmithAir747



I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made... (Psalm 139:14)
User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 25
Reply 13, posted (4 years 7 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3838 times:



Quoting ManuCH (Thread starter):
What do you think? My opinion is that it's absolutely irresponsible for parents to endorse something like this - we're talking about a 12 year old kid! Sex reassignment is hard enough for adults. This doesn't make any sense

With kids gettting younger and younger (apparently the real age varies by society) when having their first real sexual intercourse - and kids hardly significantly older getting pregnant, I think this 12-yr old kid is not too young for this decision, IF it is properly diagnosed and verified.
Caring parents that are supportive is a big plus here - however, if this all should be for pure publicity, it should be condemned to the ultimate level.

Like one poster said earlier, making this very important decision before puberty kicks in, really makes sense. The alternative to wait until he/she is 18, might have some legal backgrounds, but surely would mean 6 years of mental hell which as well could have lots of negative effects.
-HT



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18675 posts, RR: 58
Reply 14, posted (4 years 7 months 23 hours ago) and read 3746 times:



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 11):

I know, I know! A circumsision.



Quoting SmithAir747 (Reply 12):

Circumcision?

Yup. Discussion for another thread, huh.

Quoting HT (Reply 13):
Like one poster said earlier, making this very important decision before puberty kicks in, really makes sense. The alternative to wait until he/she is 18, might have some legal backgrounds, but surely would mean 6 years of mental hell which as well could have lots of negative effects.

Remember how much puberty sucked? Imagine having to go through the other gender's puberty.

This is why there's no correct answer to this ethical question and there never will be. Anyone who claims to have THE correct answer should probably be ignored.


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 15, posted (4 years 7 months 22 hours ago) and read 3699 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
If it's not OK to perform elective surgery on a 12yo who requests it, why is it OK to perform elective surgery on a newborn who doesn't want it?

I guess any response to that question would be controversial, because it will also involve religion. Circumcisions are part of both Jewish and Muslim culture. For those who circumcise their kids without their consent, just for aesthetic reasons, it's very difficult to say why they're motivated, but I personally do wonder more why in religion, circumcision is such a big deal. Fact is however, that until the child has come of age, he or she has no say whatsoever and is at the mercy of the parents, or the person under whom the kid is in custody. In a nutshell: Parents can pretty much do as they please with their kids, the only thing that limits them is the law.


User currently offlineBNE From Australia, joined Mar 2000, 3169 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (4 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 3601 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):

Thanks for the US policy.

There was a story on Australian TV last week.

Quote:
This is a story that at first glance seems quite unbelievable. It's about a little girl called Jazz. She's only eight years old and she was born a boy.

She is probably the youngest transgender child in the world. For years, Jazz felt something was wrong, that somehow she was trapped in the wrong body. So she decided to dress and live as a girl.

And even more controversially, her parents accepted it.



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
If it's not OK to perform elective surgery on a 12yo who requests it, why is it OK to perform elective surgery on a newborn who doesn't want it?

What about in Africa.



Why fly non stop when you can connect
User currently offlineType-Rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 4842 posts, RR: 19
Reply 17, posted (4 years 7 months 17 hours ago) and read 3582 times:


He wore a bikini instead of trunks at swimming lessons, dried himself on Barbie towels, rode a pink scooter to school and wore pink ribbons in his hair.


Man, what a way to get crucified by the jocks at school!
After reading the article, I don't think this kid had a sex change operation, he just started dressing as a girl and decided to become a girl. So basically he's a transvestite.

BTW, what is a "deed poll"?



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User currently offlineSANAV8R From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 215 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 7 months 17 hours ago) and read 3572 times:

Well The Sun is reporting another case;

9 Year Old Boy is Girl Now


User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (4 years 7 months 16 hours ago) and read 3542 times:

In Finland you get a lot of androgynists. It's hard to tell what sex they are.

It's a shame these young kids can't use that state until they are adults and then commit to a sex.

For a boy to know he feels like a girl inside at such an early age must be quite a powerful feeling.


User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 7951 posts, RR: 26
Reply 20, posted (4 years 7 months 16 hours ago) and read 3536 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
In fact, at birth, some female babies have bloody discharge and some even make milk from their nipples because of the effects of maternal estrogens.

It sounds incredible but it's true. By daughter is 10 months now but for a few weeks after birth she was discharging small amounts of milk from her left breast. We were a little surprised when the doctor told us it was of no concern and that her female hormone levels were just elevated.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineFerengi80 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2007, 685 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 7 months 11 hours ago) and read 3483 times:
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Quoting Type-Rated (Reply 17):
BTW, what is a "deed poll"?

It is a legal process here in the UK, whereby a person can legally change their name. They complete the forms, pay the fee required, and their name is legally changed.



AF1981 LHR-CDG A380-800 10 July 2010 / AF1980 CDG-LHR A380-800 11 July 2010
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18675 posts, RR: 58
Reply 22, posted (4 years 7 months 3 hours ago) and read 3382 times:



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 15):

I guess any response to that question would be controversial, because it will also involve religion.

So superstitious beliefs are a valid indication to perform elective surgery on a non-consenting newborn.

Interestingly, the above statement, as absurd as it is, is completely true at the present time.

Moving right along...

Quoting Type-Rated (Reply 17):

Man, what a way to get crucified by the jocks at school!
After reading the article, I don't think this kid had a sex change operation, he just started dressing as a girl and decided to become a girl. So basically he's a transvestite.

That's like arguing that I became gay because I started experimenting with guys and liked it. It's backwards. I started experimenting with guys and liked it because I was gay. This kid started dressing like a girl BECAUSE she thought she was one. NO 12-year-old boy would make that decision out of the blue.

I think of it in terms of three axes:
1) Biological sex (which is typically binary, if you leave out people with congenital malformations)
2) Gender identity (do you identify as male or female?)
3) Gender expression (do you have a more masculine demeanor or a more feminine one?)

Each of us falls at a different place on each of these spectra. For me personally, I identify as male and have a male gender identity and male gender expression. My good friend, a flaming queen of a gay guy, has a male sex and male gender identity, but a very feminine gender expression. I know a drag queen who is just like me, totally male-identified, but to him, drag is a hobby and a chance to slip on a skin in which he isn't as comfortable.

And then there was my professor of neurobiology, and M.D., Ph.D. whose biological sex was female, but his gender identity was male. And so Barbara became Ben and if you met him in person, you'd never know it today.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18675 posts, RR: 58
Reply 23, posted (4 years 7 months 3 hours ago) and read 3380 times:

OFF TOPIC!!!

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 20):

It sounds incredible but it's true. By daughter is 10 months now but for a few weeks after birth she was discharging small amounts of milk from her left breast. We were a little surprised when the doctor told us it was of no concern and that her female hormone levels were just elevated.

Well, it was her mother's hormones, but yeah, we warn parents having their first girl that a bit of milk from the breasts or a bit of discharge (bloody or not) from the vagina is totally normal for the first week or so. In boys, the nipples can come out pretty swollen.

One of the best middle-of-the-night calls I ever got went as follows. Now, the first thing you have to understand is that this is in the Bronx and the dad who was calling me sounded like a pretty rough-and-tumble, blue collar, meat and three veg sort of guy with a thick Bronx accent (which just made it all even more hilarious).

Me: "Hello, this is Dr. G of Jacobi Pediatrics. How can I help you tonight?"
Dad: "Hi, Doc, um... I'm sorry to bother you, but I've got a problem here."
M: "Sure, what's wrong?"
D: "Well, my son is 5 days old and I was up because it's my turn to change the diaper and...well..."
M: "Yes?"
D: "Um... boys ain't supposed to have tits, are they?" (Mind you, it's about 2:30 AM)
M: mutes his phone so that Dad can't hear the laughter

Once I'd pulled myself back together, I tried and tried and tried to convince this guy that it was normal. I went through the physiology with him and everything. Mind you, it's now about 2:45 AM. And after all that, I'm STILL not sure I convinced the poor young dad that night.

OK,
/OFF TOPIC


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 24, posted (4 years 7 months 1 hour ago) and read 3350 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
So superstitious beliefs are a valid indication to perform elective surgery on a non-consenting newborn.

I did not pass any judgement on that in my remark. In fact I do not understand why circumcision is such a big deal in a religion. I was born a catholic myself and was never circumcised. I could not even imagine the pain I would have gone through as a baby had my parents done that to me. I do agree with you, circumcision should only be done once the kid is legally old enough to consent himself (read: once he is an adult).


25 Andaman : Hmmm, could you open this a bit more...? Some of my foreign friends have noticed Finnish women behave kind of manly, comparing to Southern-Europe esp
26 DocLightning : I was simply pointing out the absurdity of the fact that your statement is actually true. It wasn't meant as an attack against you or what you said a
27 Flighty : Since when does a 12 year old have a valid opinion about his or her health care? A child of that age is too young to understand basic health care deci
28 DocLightning : As a pediatrician and a representative of both the American Academy of Pediatrics and the Society for Adolescent Medicine I strongly disagree with th
29 Andaman : ...and up here men dream of proper chest hair.
30 AlexEU : Is it possible to change sex twice?
31 Flighty : Sounds fine, of course I will defer to you on that, my friend. This has been a source of (some) debate in (certain) cases. A famous recent case was t
32 Aaron747 : Off topic again but huh-larious!! You guys in pediatrics see your fair share of horror stories, but you no doubt collect a lot of funny ones too. But
33 ManuCH : I would certainly hope that a 12 year old is entitled to his/her own opinion on health care! This brings up another (yes, slightly off-topic) issue:
34 Fabo : ManuCH: As a result of several media-covered cases that went up to ultimate court decision, doctors are legaly bound to use the available cure (typica
35 Kingsford : If I had to go through the operation from man to woman I had rather have it done before my body starts being hairy and showing too many virile feature
36 DocLightning : A parent cannot deny a child immediately life-saving treatment on religious grounds. For small children, if the parents refuse to consent to a treatm
37 Incitatus : You may even have a case, but in order to make it, please don't create baseless arguments. There are health benefits - reduction in rate of HIV trans
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