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19 Year Old Murder/rapist Gets Away With 9 1/2 Ys.  
User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10654 posts, RR: 9
Posted (4 years 10 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2907 times:

A (now) 19 year old murderer, who raped, beat and killed an 8 year old girl in Leipzig/Gerrmany last year has been sentenced to a very moderate 9 1/2 years imprisonment today (under the German youth law the highest sentence is 10 years, and he´s under it because he is, mentally and physically, behind his age). The case made huge headlines in Germany last year.

Der Spiegel says its a high sentence, hmm. He´ll be out of prison before he turns 30. They´d better thoroughly check him before he can get out.

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/0,1518,652824,00.html
http://de.news.yahoo.com/1/20091002/...-muss-lange-ins-gefng-8b73c05.html

45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGQfluffy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (4 years 10 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2894 times:

Sounds like a Death Penalty would be useful over there. Too bad the EU is a tad bit liberal in that regard.

User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13968 posts, RR: 63
Reply 2, posted (4 years 10 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2781 times:

He was tried by juvenile law because he was below 18 when he committed the crime. Maximium punishment for murder acc. to German juvenile law is 10 years (years ago the German supreme court ruled that the purpose of juvenile law is less punishment, but betterment, unlike adult law, which in extreme cases can punish a murderer with life without parole).
Also the punishment was reduced by 6 months because the accused made a full confession.
On the other hand I´m quite sure that, even if he finishes his 9 1/2 years, he won´t just be released. In his special case it has to be determined if he is still a danger to society. If yes, at the end of his prison term he might be transfered to a forensic mental institution to be locked away.

Jan

[Edited 2009-10-02 13:55:07]

User currently offlineRacko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4856 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (4 years 10 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2774 times:

This does not mean that he will get out after 9 years, he will probably get "Sicherheitsverwahrung" once he is over 21.

User currently offlineSabena332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (4 years 10 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2766 times:



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 3):
On the other hand I´m quite sure that, even if he finishes his 9 1/2 years, he won´t just be released.

I hope so. This is another crime beyond believe. The little girl trusted him (because they knew each other), she followed him into his apartment, then he forced her to drink alcohol, raped her several times, punched her and broke out several teeth, broke several of her ribs, strangled her to death, and trew her body into a lake.

I hope that he falls down some stairs while being in prison. It is completely beyond me how someone can do things like that, simply disgusting that guy!

Patrick


User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10654 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2690 times:



Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 5):
I hope that he falls down some stairs while being in prison. It is completely beyond me how someone can do things like that, simply disgusting that guy!

Cases like this make me wonder why we shouldnt introduce special uncomfortable prisons where those pigs have to work hard twelve hours a day for the family they have caused so much pain. Not bootcamp pressure, just very hard, dirty work to wear them out. Sum like him should be made responsible to pay for the parents of the child he killed until the day he dies or they die.

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 1):
Sounds like a Death Penalty would be useful over there. Too bad the EU is a tad bit liberal in that regard.

No way. Thank god the vast majority is against death penalty. Man should not kill man. A TOUGHLY handled life imprisonment is anyway a stronger punishment than hanging. If anything, they should not make it too difficult for them if such scum wants to commit suicide.


User currently offlineSudden From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 4130 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2658 times:



Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 5):
The little girl trusted him (because they knew each other), she followed him into his apartment, then he forced her to drink alcohol, raped her several times, punched her and broke out several teeth, broke several of her ribs, strangled her to death, and trew her body into a lake.

I'm lost for words. How a human(?) can become this sick goes way above my head. The terror this little girl had to go through before she were left with 2 little wings must have been beyond what all of us can imagine all together.
My daughter is 6 years old and you then start to think.



When in doubt, flat out!
User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4488 posts, RR: 21
Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2611 times:



Quoting Sudden (Reply 8):
I'm lost for words. How a human(?) can become this sick goes way above my head. The terror this little girl had to go through before she were left with 2 little wings must have been beyond what all of us can imagine all together.

Very well said.

I think that short of murdering a person, rape is the absolute worst thing a human being can do to another. And I think the punishments are not nearly severe enough.

I don't know how it works in Germany, but typical "prison mentality" around the US seems to dictate he'll reap what he sowed by the other inmates...



I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlineAverageUser From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2476 times:

Quoting NA (Thread starter):
A (now) 19 year old murderer, who raped, beat and killed an 8 year old girl in Leipzig/Gerrmany last year has been sentenced to a very moderate 9 1/2 years imprisonment today (under the German youth law the highest sentence is 10 years,

So a maximum sentence allowed by the law in force, in other words. Minus the 6 months for a confession. Are you saying there's been a miscarriage of justice?

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 9):

I don't know how it works in Germany, but typical "prison mentality" around the US seems to dictate he'll reap what he sowed by the other inmates

Lynching by proxy in other words. Civilized people do not lynch their criminals.

Quoting NA (Reply 7):
If anything, they should not make it too difficult for them if such scum wants to commit suicide.

A "Baader-Meinhof" type of event or a normal suicide?


User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4488 posts, RR: 21
Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2454 times:



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 8):
Lynching by proxy in other words. Civilized people do not lynch their criminals.

Generally civilized people don't make up the prison population in most countries of the world.



I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8846 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2446 times:



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 8):
Lynching by proxy in other words. Civilized people do not lynch their criminals

After being convicted of a terrible crime, and after the appeals process is finished, he should be executed. That is not lynching. He serves no purpose on this earth, he ended that little girls time on this earth. He brought untold misery to her family. He does not deserve to exist.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineSignol From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2007, 2997 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2442 times:



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 10):

Does your country execute minors?

In this case, he received the maximum penalty under the national law. If the local population wish to change their law, they have the parliamentary means to do so.

signol



Flights booked: none :(
User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4488 posts, RR: 21
Reply 12, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2437 times:



Quoting Signol (Reply 11):
Does your country execute minors?

Not unless they are tried as adults. And a "minor" constitutes those younger than 18.



I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8846 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2436 times:



Quoting Signol (Reply 11):
In this case, he received the maximum penalty under the national law. If the local population wish to change their law, they have the parliamentary means to do so.

I agree with your statement, but not about their laws. Too lenient for me. A minor can be tried as an adult, so it is possible and has happened in the past as far as I know.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13968 posts, RR: 63
Reply 14, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2428 times:

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 12):
Quoting Signol (Reply 11):
Does your country execute minors?

Not unless they are tried as adults. And a "minor" constitutes those younger than 18.

He was 17 when he committed the crime. This is all that counts.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 13):
Quoting Signol (Reply 11):
In this case, he received the maximum penalty under the national law. If the local population wish to change their law, they have the parliamentary means to do so.

I agree with your statement, but not about their laws. Too lenient for me. A minor can be tried as an adult, so it is possible and has happened in the past as far as I know.

In Germany, if you are below 18 when you commit a crime, you´ll get mandatorily tried by juvenile law. This can even apply to people who commit a crime up to the age of 21 when a psychatric evaluation proves that their mental age is that of a teenager (below 18).
In any case, what happened was the German equivalent of a plea bargain (we don´t have "pleading guilty" or "pleading innocent"). The guy confessed his crime, basically pleading guilty, and as a bargain received 6 months less than the maximum sentence, because he saved the court from spending months going through all the evidence.

Jan

[Edited 2009-10-03 20:53:47]

User currently offlineSudden From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 4130 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2406 times:

That said,

Will this "person" enjoy the luxury of a new identity, a new home in a new country etc., paid with tax money that comes from this little girls parents, when he will be released? How does the German law work in regards to that?

His time in prison might be short, but after he has been released, he can never walk the street feeling safe for the rest of his life. So in a way he serving lifetime. I can only hope (sad to actually be thinking this) that someone will hunt him down when he comes out of jail.

Aim for the sky!
Sudden



When in doubt, flat out!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19416 posts, RR: 58
Reply 16, posted (4 years 10 months 20 hours ago) and read 2363 times:



Quoting Signol (Reply 11):

Does your country execute minors?

I believe that in Texas, you could be executed if you committed murder as a teenager. Not sure about that, though.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (4 years 10 months 19 hours ago) and read 2358 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
I believe that in Texas, you could be executed if you committed murder as a teenager.

Even in Texas, even if one did not do the actual murders but was present during the murder, person can also be executed for not stopping the crime. It has happened before many, many times.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineDanfearn77 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2008, 1811 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (4 years 10 months 19 hours ago) and read 2352 times:

When i read the thread title i fully expected this to be in the UK. Were used to this sort of slack sentancing over here.

Terrible...



Eagles may soar high, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines!
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21528 posts, RR: 55
Reply 19, posted (4 years 10 months 19 hours ago) and read 2349 times:



Quoting Signol (Reply 11):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 10):

Does your country execute minors?

Yes we do, unfortunately.

We'll see what happens in 9.5 years with this guy, whether he's actually ready to get out or not.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAverageUser From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (4 years 10 months 18 hours ago) and read 2329 times:



Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 9):
Quoting AverageUser (Reply 8):
Lynching by proxy in other words. Civilized people do not lynch their criminals.

Generally civilized people don't make up the prison population in most countries of the world.

Someone has said prison population is 1/3 bad, 1/3 sad, and 1/3 mad, I feel there's a lot of truth to it.

In the U.S. prison sentences are used as a means of combined social policy and racial control in a fashion that's quite exceptional among the industrialised western nations in its extent.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 17):

Even in Texas, even if one did not do the actual murders but was present during the murder, person can also be executed for not stopping the crime. It has happened before many, many times.

I don't buy into that folklore at all. Even Texas has some justice left.




Quoting Sudden (Reply 15):
His time in prison might be short, but after he has been released, he can never walk the street feeling safe for the rest of his life. So in a way he serving lifetime. I can only hope (sad to actually be thinking this) that someone will hunt him down when he comes out of jail.

There must be a sort of social gratification in this lynch-the-scum mentality, which I reckon is very rare in Sweden in the open in general.


User currently offlineSudden From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 4130 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (4 years 10 months 13 hours ago) and read 2305 times:



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 20):
There must be a sort of social gratification in this lynch-the-scum mentality, which I reckon is very rare in Sweden in the open in general.

I haven't lived in Sweden for many years, so would not be able to give a fair answer to that.  Wink

Aim for the sky!
Sudden



When in doubt, flat out!
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 22, posted (4 years 10 months 12 hours ago) and read 2293 times:

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 20):
I don't buy into that folklore at all. Even Texas has some justice left.

Participating in a crime, even if you are not the actual murderer, can still get you the death penalty. And there are people on death row right now, in Texas, that did not even commit murder but were participants to said crime. Just ask anyone in law enforcement in Texas and they will tell you just that. The only way to avoid earning yourself a spot on death row in Texas is to prove that you tried to stop the crime in progress. That is pretty hard to prove.

You don't need to be a murderer, in Texas, to earn yourself a spot on Death Row.

It is not even folklore. That is how it is in Texas, no matter how screwed up that can be. Why do you think Texas is the Death Penalty Capital of the world?? Think about it.

[Edited 2009-10-04 14:09:46]


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (4 years 10 months 12 hours ago) and read 2282 times:



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 20):

A clue for you, AverageUser: Look up the Law of Parties in Texas and it'll tell you exactly what I've been saying....

I found this here...

http://deathpenaltyblog.dallasnews.c...9/08/conspiracylaw-of-parties.html

Quoting Texas Death Penalty Article (Reply website):
In Texas you have to be able to predict that someone you are with is going to commit a crime and kill somebody. Jeff Wood was sitting in his truck outside a store that his friend had gone in to when he heard a shot. He went in & found his friend had murdered someone. He didn't know it was going to happen yet he is on death row. THIS IS NOT LOGICAL NOR IS IT FAIR.

But that's not all....

Quoting Texas Death Penalty Article (Reply website):
When I talk to people about the death penalty in Texas, I tell them that they could find themselves on death row some day. They say that they would never kill anyone. Then I tell them about the Law of Parties. Anyone could get caught up in this. I am confident that I will not murder anyone in my lifetime, but I cannot control what other people do, especially outside of my presence. Parents should especially be concerned. It makes the advice about watching who you pick as friends a life and death matter.

It is not so folklore-ish as you thought it was, right?



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10654 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2237 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 22):
Texas is the Death Penalty Capital

At least from all civilized places in the world which are not under a strict dictatorship Texas is clearly the place with by far the most death penalties. And not a place I wouldnt want to get in trouble with the law in any case. The governor was just forced to free a man who had been in prison for more than 25 years - for nothing.

Of ca. 1100 executions in the US since 1976, more than 1/3, thats almost 400, happened in Texas alone (For comparison: New York: 0, New Hampshire: 1). There must be a grave mentality difference in that state, at least amongst its officials, to the rest of the US.


25 AverageUser : What you quote here does not say what you've been saying, namely that not acting to prevent a crime punishable by a death sentence would by law make
26 DocLightning : And interestingly, Texas crime rates haven't been that much lower than the rest of the country. About this 10y sentence. Perhaps this will galvanize
27 AirframeAS : Hey.... I didn't make up the laws nor did I write them. That is what Texas has. You can either chose to accept it or continue to call it a folklore.
28 AverageUser : For the evidence I see, I'm afraid I'll have to choose to continue calling the said principle "not acting to prevent makes you an accomplice [to crim
29 Post contains links AirframeAS : Suit yourself. "Chapter 7.02 of the TX Penal Code says a person can be criminally responsible for another’s actions if that person acts with "the i
30 MD11Engineer : From what I´ve heard, the rapist is a functional autist, who, while he is able to understand logically that he had done wrong (else he wouldn´t hav
31 NA : There is a high chance for that, but I just hope they dont waste too much taxpayers money on this human scum. That money is better invested by giving
32 DocLightning : That would be acceptable. Suppose a diabetic gets hypoglycemic and, in his confusion, kills someone. When he comes out of his hypoglycemic episode, h
33 FlyDeltaJets87 : But criminals can lynch other criminals. Because Germany has never wrongly convicted anyone.... I hope he gets the crap kicked out of him in prison.
34 Aaron747 : And fortunately, when it comes to child rape, we know most of them will get the job done
35 NA : You misunderstood me. I´m not at all suggesting eugenics at all. I just said they shouldnt waste money after he has finished his time in prison by p
36 DocLightning : Then do what? Execute him? Release him? Those are your two remaining choices, unless you have a third option I've missed.
37 Na : Sure: Let him work behind closed walls, so he can pay back a bit of what he did. And not lock him up in a hospital for mentally sick and treat him wit
38 AverageUser : These are all acts ("attempts to aid" is an interesting one though"), "not preventing" is a passive non-act. Therefore, no need for me to change my s
39 MD11Engineer : §§ 66a,b and c StGb (StGb= Strafgesetzbuch, German penal code). Acc. to Wikipedia similar laws exist e.g. in Denmark. Jan
40 Post contains links AverageUser : Thanks for the hint! The point seems to have caused a lot of recent political stir in Germany. While there's the general framework in place, much of
41 WarRI1 : I do not think of him as an Autistic Child Rapist. I think of him a s a Child Rapist. For some there is always an excuse for the actions. I guess if
42 MD11Engineer : You just checked §66, but not §66a, §66b and §66c. I can´t be @rsed to translate several pages of German legalese into English, also, I´m neith
43 MD11Engineer : Autism exists in various forms, from the relatively mild Asperger´s syndrome, which, while making a person arkward in interacting wirth other people
44 AverageUser : Jan, there exist perfectly good English translations (the link is from your relevant Ministry) of your legal code already -- I used them in fact, kin
45 Francoflier : It is always rather interesting to see the public bubble with rage over such tragedies. There is always a hint of hypocrisy in it, as the act will alm
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