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US Citizens Can't Work For Foreign Govts./Police  
User currently offlineAmricanShamrok From Ireland, joined May 2008, 2931 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8305 times:

Thought this was interesting. I have both Irish and US citizenship and regard myself as half Irish/half American. I was born in Ireland and have lived here my whole life although I travel back to Chicago frequently. I was looking at my US passport today and it says:

Quote:
Under certain circumstances you may lose your U.S. citizenship by performing, voluntarily and with the intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship, any of the following acts:

(1) being naturalized in a foreign state;
(2) taking an oath or making a declaration to the foreign state;
(3) serving in the armed forces of the foreign state;
(4) accepting employment with a foreign government;
or (5) formally renouncing U.S. citizenship before a U.S. consular officer overseas.

Now, I don't have any plans to work with the Irish governement or An Garda Síochana (Irish police force) but I think this is a little over the top.

I can, however, see that the US Dept. of Homeland Security wouldn't like a citizen to be working for, say, the likes of the Iranian government but I still think this rule should be amended.

Thoughts?


Shannon-Chicago
26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21486 posts, RR: 53
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8286 times:

It's apparently a "may" stipulation, so what's the problem?

It covers everything from simply accepting involvement with "friendly" nations to kicking people out who'd voluntarily join the north korean army...!


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26601 posts, RR: 75
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 8272 times:



Quoting AmricanShamrok (Thread starter):
voluntarily and with the intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship

Note the bolded part. There has to be the intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4025 posts, RR: 28
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 8228 times:

Does it say anything about having to pay taxes to Uncle Sam even on your Irish wage just because you have a passport?

Quoting AmricanShamrok (Thread starter):
(3) serving in the armed forces of the foreign state;

This is particularly hypocritical - how many thousands of non-U.S. citizens does the U.S. have fighting in its armed forces? People who may have to go to war for a country but can't vote on its leadership?



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 8219 times:



Quoting AmricanShamrok (Thread starter):

Now, I don't have any plans to work with the Irish governement or An Garda Síochana (Irish police force) but I think this is a little over the top.

I can, however, see that the US Dept. of Homeland Security wouldn't like a citizen to be working for, say, the likes of the Iranian government but I still think this rule should be amended.

The rule is not ironclad. I am a Swiss/American dual citizen, and I spoke with the State department regarding my obligatory service in the Swiss Army. They told me that I could do so, since it was obligatory, but I was not allowed to become an officer, as that would be construed as doing more than simply meeting the service requirement.

When I did serve in the Swiss Army, I was asked to go to officer training, but when I explained my conversation with the State department, they accepted that and I finished up as a sub-officer (NCO) only.

As far as your applying for the police force in Ireland, I think it would be similarly accepted.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15780 posts, RR: 27
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 8209 times:

Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel has worked with the IDF, though I think it was as a civilian. He is also at least rumored to have dual citizenship, but I don't know if that is true.


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineFlanker From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1641 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 8203 times:

Damn it! I was so looking forward to working for the Bulgarian mafi.. i mean police.  rotfl 


Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12158 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 8177 times:



Quoting AmricanShamrok (Thread starter):
Quote:
Under certain circumstances you may lose your U.S. citizenship by performing, voluntarily and with the intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship, any of the following acts:

(1) being naturalized in a foreign state;
(2) taking an oath or making a declaration to the foreign state;
(3) serving in the armed forces of the foreign state;
(4) accepting employment with a foreign government;
or (5) formally renouncing U.S. citizenship before a U.S. consular officer overseas.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 2):
Note the bolded part. There has to be the intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship.



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 3):
Quoting AmricanShamrok (Thread starter):
(3) serving in the armed forces of the foreign state;

This is particularly hypocritical - how many thousands of non-U.S. citizens does the U.S. have fighting in its armed forces? People who may have to go to war for a country but can't vote on its leadership?



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
The rule is not ironclad. I am a Swiss/American dual citizen, and I spoke with the State department regarding my obligatory service in the Swiss Army. They told me that I could do so, since it was obligatory, but I was not allowed to become an officer, as that would be construed as doing more than simply meeting the service requirement.

When I did serve in the Swiss Army, I was asked to go to officer training, but when I explained my conversation with the State department, they accepted that and I finished up as a sub-officer (NCO) only.

All of this is true, and the US Government rotinely grants exceptions to these rules. Before the US entered WWII, many US citizens entered and flew combat missions for the RAF, most as officers. The same with the AVG, the Flying Tigers, and some enlisted or were commissioned into Canada's Military Forces (RCAF or RCN). Many Jewish Americans have fought with the IDF. Many Americans serve with the Iraqi Police Forces as trainers today. Basicly, as long as you do not renounce your US Citizenship, and ask for permission to do these things, it is not a problem.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15780 posts, RR: 27
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8169 times:



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 7):
The same with the AVG, the Flying Tigers,

Essentially these guys were released from the military with the understanding that they would have their commissions reinstated with no loss of rank. I want to say they got paid more too.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12158 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days ago) and read 8097 times:



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 7):
The same with the AVG, the Flying Tigers,

Essentially these guys were released from the military with the understanding that they would have their commissions reinstated with no loss of rank. I want to say they got paid more too.

Correct, all with the blessings of FDR.


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days ago) and read 8079 times:

Nothing new to me. In fact, if you're a dual citizen with the German citizenship, and you join the armed forces of your other nationality, you lose the German citizenship.

User currently offlineAverageUser From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8062 times:

You can't lose your Finnish citizenship ever unless you want to.

User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8059 times:



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 10):
Nothing new to me. In fact, if you're a dual citizen with the German citizenship, and you join the armed forces of your other nationality, you lose the German citizenship.

I know a number of German-Swiss dual citizens who have done time in the Swiss Army. I'm sure they have a similar arrangement.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26601 posts, RR: 75
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8056 times:



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 7):

All of this is true, and the US Government rotinely grants exceptions to these rules.

An exception isn't actually needed. You have to have the intention to renounce.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19936 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8038 times:



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 11):
You can't lose your Finnish citizenship ever unless you want to.

Nor your U.S. citizenship, unless you naturalized under false pretenses or something like that.

But you do have to play by the rules. If you're going to work for a foreign government, there's a process, a few forms, and it's done. You don't lose your citizenship just by accident.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14070 posts, RR: 62
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 7994 times:



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 10):
Nothing new to me. In fact, if you're a dual citizen with the German citizenship, and you join the armed forces of your other nationality, you lose the German citizenship.

AFAIK not if the other country is also a member of NATO. In this case military service is even recognised (you won´t have to do compulsory service twice).
But better check it out with the Verteidigungsministerium.

Jan


User currently offlineTravelExec From Spain, joined Dec 2007, 449 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 7977 times:

Actually, it would almost make more sense if the issue were the other way around. Ireland has neutrality ensrined in its constitution, so surely if you were to join the US army with the intention of going to battle elsewhere, that would be anti-constitutional in terms of your irish "half".

User currently offlineAmricanShamrok From Ireland, joined May 2008, 2931 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 7961 times:

Thanks for all the replies. So for agrument sake I'm going to join the police force here but its ok as long as I don't openly renounce my US citizenship?


Shannon-Chicago
User currently offlineEISHN From Ireland, joined Feb 2007, 1509 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 7959 times:



Quoting AmricanShamrok (Thread starter):

Éamon de Valera was born in the States, and was a US citizen throughout his life, which is what saved his life after 1916, and he became Taoiseach and President.
So as far as I know it was never revoked even though he served the two highest postions in Irish politics.
I was born in the US but have lived almost the enitirety of my life in Ireland, and would declare myself Irish before American, and even European before American. If I was to join the Gardaí or get involve in Irish politics, I wouldn't be too bothered about what the US State Department would say.



St. Flannan/ Fhlanain- She took off to find the footlights, And I took off for the sky
User currently offlineTravelExec From Spain, joined Dec 2007, 449 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 7958 times:



Quoting AmricanShamrok (Reply 17):
So for agrument sake I'm going to join the police force here but its ok as long as I don't openly renounce my US citizenship?

I would say that would be fine. As the guys have pointed out, the "may" in the phrase is a get out in case you join the Islamic Revolutionary Guard in Iran. I can't imagine that joining our "guardians of the peace" [garda síochána - in Irish they dont even police things, they just keep the peace...] is going to make you an enemy of the state in the US.


User currently offlineAmricanShamrok From Ireland, joined May 2008, 2931 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7931 times:



Quoting EISHN (Reply 18):
Éamon de Valera was born in the States, and was a US citizen throughout his life, which is what saved his life after 1916, and he became Taoiseach and President.
So as far as I know it was never revoked even though he served the two highest postions in Irish politics.
I was born in the US but have lived almost the enitirety of my life in Ireland, and would declare myself Irish before American, and even European before American. If I was to join the Gardaí or get involve in Irish politics, I wouldn't be too bothered about what the US State Department would say.

I forgot about the whole de Valera situation actually...thanks!

Quoting TravelExec (Reply 19):
I would say that would be fine. As the guys have pointed out, the "may" in the phrase is a get out in case you join the Islamic Revolutionary Guard in Iran. I can't imagine that joining our "guardians of the peace" [garda síochána - in Irish they dont even police things, they just keep the peace...] is going to make you an enemy of the state in the US.

Thats true. I suppose as long as you inform the State Dept. of your intentions they'd be fine with it.



Shannon-Chicago
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26601 posts, RR: 75
Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 7792 times:



Quoting AmricanShamrok (Reply 17):
So for agrument sake I'm going to join the police force here but its ok as long as I don't openly renounce my US citizenship?

Well, the murky part would be if the State Department cared enough to try and show you had the "intent" to renounce. Unless they can show some evidence that you have that intent, your word to the contrary should be binding.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineArrow From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 2676 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7792 times:



Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
Well, the murky part would be if the State Department cared enough to try and show you had the "intent" to renounce. Unless they can show some evidence that you have that intent, your word to the contrary should be binding.

To add a further wrinkle to this argument -- the IRS requires all American citizens worldwide to file an annual income tax return and subject themselves to IRS rulings about taxes owing. In most cases -- but not all -- the IRS will accept payment of taxes in the resident country as having met US requirements. But it's tricky, because it is entirely up to the IRS what they will/won't accept and American ex-pats who have tried to meet the IRS rules with an annual filing have occasionally had significant tax bills to pay.

There are literally tens of thousands of Americans living in other countries -- in some cases for decades, and with full citizenship in that country -- who are unaware of this. The only way to get rid of the obligation (assuming you have no desire to renew our US citizenship) is to renounce your US citizenship. But here's the Catch 22 -- if the State department thinks you're renouncing only for tax purposes, they won't accept it.

Wonderful, eh?



Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
User currently offlineRFields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7792 times:



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 3):
This is particularly hypocritical - how many thousands of non-U.S. citizens does the U.S. have fighting in its armed forces? People who may have to go to war for a country but can't vote on its leadership?

No it is not. The quoted section says you must serve " voluntarily and with the intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship".

There is another instance I've heard of which the revocation of citizenship was involuntary - because the service in the foreign military was voluntary and began after that nation and the US began hostilities.

However, if the US is your only citizenship - it cannot be revoked.

This only applies to dual citizens. Almost all the non-US citizens serving in the US military do not have dual citizenship.

Also, I think involuntary revocation of citizenship would require a federal court ruling, not an administrative determination. Or at least a formal hearing of some type.

Quoting AmricanShamrok (Reply 17):
So for agrument sake I'm going to join the police force here but its ok as long as I don't openly renounce my US citizenship?

I would suggest you write a letter to the US Embassy Consular Office - expressing your desire to serve in as a law enforcement office, but also your desire to retain your US citizenship. Ask their opinion, and keep the response on file.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25741 posts, RR: 50
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7792 times:



Quoting Arrow (Reply 22):
To add a further wrinkle to this argument -- the IRS requires all American citizens worldwide to file an annual income tax return and subject themselves to IRS rulings about taxes owing. In most cases -- but not all -- the IRS will accept payment of taxes in the resident country as having met US requirements. But it's tricky, because it is entirely up to the IRS what they will/won't accept and American ex-pats who have tried to meet the IRS rules with an annual filing have occasionally had significant tax bills to pay.

Your tax liability as a US citizen goes with you wherever you maybe globally.

In a nutshell, the IRS currently allows most US citizens who are bona fide resident of a foreign country(uninterrupted period that includes an entire tax year) to claim up to $87,600 of foreign income exclusion.
Beyond that there is a myriad of foreign tax credit, deductions, dual taxation treaties that muddy the waters.

Strongly suggest one consults with a qualified and experienced CPA.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
25 FLY2HMO : That law has been around for years. Many other countries have the same deal. My passport doesn't say that though so it must be a new thing to have it
26 JFKMan : I am also a dual American-Irish citizen. I am fine with that rule...I don't want Americans or any Irish working for other countires governments....who
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