Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Student Safety - A Survey  
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Posted (4 years 11 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1364 times:

http://www.theage.com.au/national/ed...-student-safety-20091012-gu1q.html
Despite media coverage here and overseas of violent attacks on Indian students, nearly 40 per cent of respondents ticked Australia as the safest place when asked to choose from a list comprising Australia, the US, Britain, New Zealand and Canada. The US ranked last for safety, with 4.3 per cent.

But students did not believe Australia offered the most prestigious education system. On this measure, the US rated most highly (42 per cent), followed by Britain (28 per cent) and Australia (15 per cent).

The quality of education at some private Australian colleges has been called into question recently with reports of unscrupulous college operators offering substandard courses. Under new, stricter Federal Government rules, more than 1300 registered institutions will be forced to re-register.

Only one Australian university, the Australian National University, was placed in the top 30 of the recent Times Higher Education's ranking of the world's top 100 universities.

[i[Of those surveyed, 1130 were Indian students. They ranked Australia No.1 for safety, access to permanent residency, access to student visas and best government policies to protect international students.

But just 8 per cent rated Australian institutions as the most prestigious, placing the country third. They considered the US as the top study destination for a quality education (58 per cent), followed by Britain (21 per cent).[/i]

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2009/s2712561.htm
Of those surveyed, 1130 were Indian students. They ranked Australia No.1 for safety, access to permanent residency, access to student visas and best government policies to protect international students.

But just 8 per cent rated Australian institutions as the most prestigious, placing the country third. They considered the US as the top study destination for a quality education (58 per cent), followed by Britain (21 per cent).

I cannot raise the actual survey from the IDP website - probably my problem not theirs but they are at:
http://www.idp.com/

All a bit surprising after the kerfuffle earlier. I would like to see the full text of the report and to know how they did the survey in other countries.

IDP is expecting a drop of around 50% in new enrolments from India in 2010, but that is at least in part due to changes in the permanent resident visa requirements or so they say.

21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 1, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1265 times:

Looks like an attempt to stop the loss of face considering these racial attacks & some damage control in progress.
The survey needed to cover Indian students currently in AUS or who had been there in the past.Those stats would be eagerly awaited.

regds
MEL.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 2, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1235 times:



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 1):
Looks like an attempt to stop the loss of face considering these racial attacks & some damage control in progress.
The survey needed to cover Indian students currently in AUS or who had been there in the past.Those stats would be eagerly awaited.

Supposedly it does include them, current ones that is. I am curious to see how they accessed students in other countries and what the questions were that were asked.

Most indications are that attacks on Indian students are not greater than on other groups. Taken in isolation they seem bad, but there seems a feasible argument that the main problem is not putting them in context. Like the old story about flu injections for the elderly in 1976 in the US, where some enormous number died within two weeks of being injected. Turned out that is how many of the age group died EVERY two weeks. Gerald Ford had to go on TV with his arm bared to be injected to show it was safe.

But I do wish they would put out the whole report. Without being able to see the lot I must say I am at the very least cautious.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 3, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1202 times:

Out here the Issue [Attacks] is still high in some media circles.Any incident & things blow up again.
regds
MEL.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineStealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5697 posts, RR: 44
Reply 4, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1164 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 3):
Out here the Issue [Attacks] is still high in some media circles

Then perhaps it is time your media moved on, but that is unlikely.

Interesting the parts of the survey relating to permanent residency, There was a time when students from developing nations( not just India) would travel to better their skills and return home to work and benefit their nation.
Now it seems overwhelmingly like it is used as a way to get around, or at least make the most of, immigration requirements.



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 5, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1152 times:



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 3):
Out here the Issue [Attacks] is still high in some media circles.Any incident & things blow up again.

Any attack is bad, but there are systemic problems that are still only being partly addressed, as in:

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 4):
There was a time when students from developing nations( not just India) would travel to better their skills and return home to work and benefit their nation.
Now it seems overwhelmingly like it is used as a way to get around, or at least make the most of, immigration requirements.

And it is not just the getting round the visa requirements but rather the way in which this is being done with recruiting agencies in India (and other countries no doubt) and to say the least dodgy practices by Aus institutions. And that goes right the way from Cookery schools without ovens to the most prestigious of Universities using the overseas students as cash points to fund their building programs. (Wonder how much Universities lost in worthless CDO last year?) I do hope that Gillard gets round to sorting out the whole system of full fee students. It was headed for disaster when it started back in ??? 1988 - rather amazing it took 20 years for the crash to show. Just sorry that some students were attacked and even more annoyed that it took this event to draw attention to a system that stinks.


User currently offlineCabso1 From Canada, joined May 2005, 502 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1138 times:

Being a student, an international student at that, and not being from India, I think I can offer a fresh opinion. I don't consider Australia dangerous at all. In fact, I'd consider London (where I've lived before) dangerous and sometimes deadly past 10 in the night.

As far as prestige goes, Asians have it in their mind that a university in the US, which may not even be ranked highly, is far better than a top ranked university back in their country of origin. While the research intensive Ivy League Universities are something else, ANU/USyd/UMelb/UNSW rival the lower league Ivies. It's all down to personal preference in the end but Asian parents take great pride in showcasing the fact that their children are sent abroad to study. In the end, it's really prestige and not academic betterment. Sad, but true.

What I do have an issue with however is international students who get on the Permanent Resident bandwagon without having assimilation with Aussie culture, or not being able to speak fluent English for that matter. There are way too many students that get to Oz or NZ or anywhere really who don't have any command of the English Language, pass their exams (or they're passed without being worthy) and then head straight to the immigration department to live in the country permanently. Some have false job offers, the lengths that some people are willing to go to is extraordinary.

I'm heading to UNSW next year and I hope all I see are hardworking English speaking students and not students who're looking for the fastest way to finish and live permanently 

[Edited 2009-10-14 20:49:13 by cabso1]

User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1119 times:



Quoting Cabso1 (Reply 6):
I'm heading to UNSW next year and I hope all I see are hardworking English speaking students and not students who're looking for the fastest way to finish and live permanently

Great that you have posted here Cabso1

Most students @ universities are hard working although "group working" can be a problem. I smiled though reading yr post, if yr fellow students have half a brain they will never ever copy yr work. Such a copy wld stand out immediately as being too good in terms of the English!!!

The IELTS test is pretty rigorous & when I took an interest in such matters I did rather wonder looking at the test if I could possibly have a chance to pass. And indeed passing is a problem for many overseas students. The issue I have is interviewing some (not all) students who had passed IELTS pretty well, English still proved a major problem. In some cases at least this probably relates to processing time. That is taking the test you have more time to work out the answer than in an interview situation when some bearded wonder asks a question (no I tried not to bark) in an accent that is hard to pick up.

Whatever the cause, a high proportion of students who come here do not have adequate English skills. The problems with this lack echo around the system like a badly damped hall equipped with repeated mikes!!

Probably some local students are not too keen to make friends with overseas students, but many are - but it is rather difficult to make friends with a flock of 15 or so Chinese, Indian, Indonesians or whatever.

I was just at a conference in Brasil where in addition to about 45 professionals, there were perhaps 15 or 20 students from Brasil, US, Germany, China, Aus (actually really from China and Indonesia but both at UNSW), Hungary and probably a few other countries. What was delightful was how they all mixed. A German student will visit me tomorrow and he is intent on trying to meet a Chinese and an Indonesian student from the conference before he comes here. But then the conference had the advantage that there were few large country groups in which to "hide".

Australia has not done itself, or the overseas students a favour by having large groups that allow most to remain isolated from the culture that they should be joining.

If UNSW does not come up to your expectations, there are a number of folk on a.net who are just an instant message away. But most are pretty happy with it.


User currently offlineCabso1 From Canada, joined May 2005, 502 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1102 times:



Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
Most students @ universities are hard working although "group working" can be a problem. I smiled though reading yr post, if yr fellow students have half a brain they will never ever copy yr work. Such a copy wld stand out immediately as being too good in terms of the English!!!

I'll take that as flattery  Smile That said, I have been having issues with my grammar lately. I guess I've been isolated from an English speaking atmosphere for a long time. Sometimes I ask myself if the sentence makes sense but I digress.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
Whatever the cause, a high proportion of students who come here do not have adequate English skills. The problems with this lack echo around the system like a badly damped hall equipped with repeated mikes!!

With the IELTS that you've mentioned above, the problem lies with the way that students get tested. I say the same thing for all language tests, because they're never a measure of how language students would do in an actual atmosphere of the target language but more a test of their grammar/vocabulary skills. Language instruction and testing never make a student comfortable in using the language whether it be French/Spanish/Arabic etc. It all relies on the motivation of the student which then brings me on to my next point:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
Australia has not done itself, or the overseas students a favour by having large groups that allow most to remain isolated from the culture that they should be joining.

Despite being in an English speaking country (and a majority of them know the basics which, as you would agree, is all that's needed to hold a decent conversation) a lot of the international students don't make an active effort to join the local community or branch out to the natives of their host country. This is so because the lure of being able to speak to their own country-people is way too high. This is the basic problem, with so many international students that Australia admits to their borders and a humongous number of them being from East Asia, things have never been easier for borderline English speakers to communicate daily. They flat together, stay together, cook together and even mate together. Of course there are going to be all types of people and I don't mean to stereotype, I personally prefer talking to people from all walks of life but I love socialising.

I finished school in Singapore and the same problem exists there. I went to an international school and through my circle of friends, no two people were of the same nationality. However a vast majority of Koreans/Japanese/Thai/Indonesians who were sent to Singapore to improve their English stuck to their own groups of people. The rare occasion that they stepped out of their nationality comfort zone would be to a fellow East Asian.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
If UNSW does not come up to your expectations, there are a number of folk on a.net who are just an instant message away. But most are pretty happy with it.

Thanks, I'm sure it's a great place socially. It's already a fantastic university academically, quite possibly the LSE of Australia. Well I liken it to that anyway. I've been on A.Net nearly 5 years and it's rather social but I hardly ever see SYD meets.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 1081 times:



Quoting Cabso1 (Reply 8):
but I hardly ever see SYD meets.

Quite a few lurking though, probably including some students at UNSW I think.

Quoting Cabso1 (Reply 8):
With the IELTS that you've mentioned above, the problem lies with the way that students get tested. I say the same thing for all language tests, because they're never a measure of how language students would do in an actual atmosphere of the target language but more a test of their grammar/vocabulary skills.

Mind you it cuts both ways, quite a few with English as their native language feel rather intimidated by many of the tasks in an IELTS test. But as you comment, the outcome is not all that well suited to assessing skills in an English speaking society. Mind you, probably much better than any test I could devise. Mostly it shows what a challenge English (or any other language) as a second language can be.

Closer to the topic, I do wonder if some of the attacks reported might not have occurred had the victim had English as a first language.


User currently offlineCabso1 From Canada, joined May 2005, 502 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1044 times:



Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
Mind you it cuts both ways, quite a few with English as their native language feel rather intimidated by many of the tasks in an IELTS test. But as you comment, the outcome is not all that well suited to assessing skills in an English speaking society. Mind you, probably much better than any test I could devise. Mostly it shows what a challenge English (or any other language) as a second language can be.

I suppose so. Thankfully I've never had to sit the IELTS test yet but I understand that it's a requirement to get an Aussie visa. It's sad at the same time because I consider English to be my native language. I've never learned my 'native' language (which is Urdu) past kindergarten. I just get a bit riled up when some people refuse to assimilate in their chosen country of immigration.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
Closer to the topic, I do wonder if some of the attacks reported might not have occurred had the victim had English as a first language.

In all fairness, the perpetrators would've gone for the students based on their skin colour as they were, as I understand it, random attacks on only Indian students. There were no attacks on East Asian students or other international students.


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6431 posts, RR: 38
Reply 11, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1041 times:



Quoting Cabso1 (Reply 8):
a lot of the international students don't make an active effort to join the local community or branch out to the natives of their host country.

That's true.

Quoting Cabso1 (Reply 8):
They flat together, stay together, cook together and even mate together. Of course there are going to be all types of people and I don't mean to stereotype, I personally prefer talking to people from all walks of life but I love socialising.

IMO it's hard not to start stereotyping. From my experience with international students, the South East Asians accept the culture better than the ones from East Asia (namely Korea). Right throughout my university (University of Auckland), you see pretty much everyone speaking English apart from the Koreans and also a lot of the mainland Chinese. I'm a 6th generation Chinese living in New Zealand and it's extremely frustrating when some people ignorantly label me in the same category as those who have come directly from China and who cannot grasp the English language at all. So you see it - groups of students standing around smoking and being more antisocial than the rest. I must say a lot of them are vulgar too and don't appreciate the fact that there are others around. I don't see why they deserve to study in this country but then again it does add extra revenue to the country and NZ is definitely one country who needs it. I'll stop there.

Quite a few of my friends have gone to Australia to study. I'm sure they are all really enjoying themselves too. But I guess they're not quite in the same league as other international students as the culture here is nearly identical to the one across the ditch.



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 12, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1022 times:



Quoting NZ107 (Reply 11):
From my experience with international students, the South East Asians accept the culture better than the ones from East Asia (namely Korea). Right throughout my university (University of Auckland), you see pretty much everyone speaking English apart from the Koreans and also a lot of the mainland Chinese.

Interesting. I only had one Korean student study with me and he fitted in at least as well as any of the others - apart from the microscope lab stinking of kimchi!! I think it is mainly in the numbers. When you get one nationality in larger numbers they group together and have less need to go outside their personal comfort zones inside their own language group.

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 11):
I don't see why they deserve to study in this country but then again it does add extra revenue to the country and NZ is definitely one country who needs it. I'll stop there.

You have a point but there are two sides to the argument, in part they are responding to the environment in which they are placed. One way of fixing it is to change the environment.

Quoting Cabso1 (Reply 10):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
Closer to the topic, I do wonder if some of the attacks reported might not have occurred had the victim had English as a first language.

In all fairness, the perpetrators would've gone for the students based on their skin colour as they were, as I understand it, random attacks on only Indian students. There were no attacks on East Asian students or other international students.

Wish that were entirely true. It appears that the Indians have suffered more (if they have) in part because of work locations and times and where they live. But it will take a while before we get some really useful data on all that.

Footnote: Amazing thing the net and ad links. While trying to make that last quote, and as far as I know without pressing anything I was suddenly on a page to apply for a visa!!! What I want to know is how the site knows I lost my passport at the gate in Santiago 10 days ago!!! And for their information AA (odd again because I was flying LAN Chile) already handed it in to the Aus Embassy in Santiago. I should have looked more carefully at the visa site but I was too busy getting out in case it was malware.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1021 times:

Another footnote:

The site was Global Visas at:

http://www.globalvisas.com/countries...l?gclid=CLzYvM2owJ0CFY0vpAoduSAfsA

Hmmm!


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6431 posts, RR: 38
Reply 14, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1017 times:



Quoting Baroque (Reply 12):
When you get one nationality in larger numbers they group together and have less need to go outside their personal comfort zones inside their own language group.

Yeah. One example: at the beginning of the year, the various clubs at uni go around lecture bashing and telling people to join etc. The Korean Students Association also did this and from memory, this is what was said: "Hi everyone, we're from the Korean Students Association. Sorry, this club is for Koreans only. (and then went off to talk in Korean for the next few minutes)". This was in the biggest lecture theatre at uni of about 600 people and I'm sure that the Koreans were quite a minority in that theatre. They have their own little world here.



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineCabso1 From Canada, joined May 2005, 502 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1011 times:



Quoting Baroque (Reply 12):
Wish that were entirely true. It appears that the Indians have suffered more (if they have) in part because of work locations and times and where they live. But it will take a while before we get some really useful data on all that.

For some reason, I think of the story of the boy who cried wolf here. The victim always has the upper hand and we're not entirely sure if they [the victims] said anything to provoke the attackers. Accusations are always easy to place, and with racial accusations there's almost no one who questions the other side.

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 14):
Yeah. One example: at the beginning of the year, the various clubs at uni go around lecture bashing and telling people to join etc. The Korean Students Association also did this and from memory, this is what was said: "Hi everyone, we're from the Korean Students Association. Sorry, this club is for Koreans only. (and then went off to talk in Korean for the next few minutes)". This was in the biggest lecture theatre at uni of about 600 people and I'm sure that the Koreans were quite a minority in that theatre. They have their own little world here.

I was at the UofA International Orientation this July, I saw an extraordinarily large number of Koreans and Americans. But that's just being stupid, why can't they accept people of other origins?


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6431 posts, RR: 38
Reply 16, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1009 times:



Quoting Cabso1 (Reply 15):
I was at the UofA International Orientation this July, I saw an extraordinarily large number of Koreans and Americans. But that's just being stupid, why can't they accept people of other origins?

Not sure.. I think that other universities maybe more appealing to those international students like the big ones in Australia. Funny that - I don't see many Americans around. Either that or the others just couldn't be bothered coming down for orientation!



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineCabso1 From Canada, joined May 2005, 502 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1006 times:



Quoting NZ107 (Reply 16):
Not sure.. I think that other universities maybe more appealing to those international students like the big ones in Australia. Funny that - I don't see many Americans around. Either that or the others just couldn't be bothered coming down for orientation!

True, Asians are prestige hunters. The more highly ranked, the better. There's a reason for it too, with international students paying disproportionately higher fees than local students, they want to get the best university that their money can buy and there's nothing like prestige to sweeten the deal.

All the Americans and Brits were there as exchange students. It's the LOTR trilogy that probably makes them want to come to NZ.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 18, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1003 times:



Quoting Cabso1 (Reply 17):
It's the LOTR trilogy that probably makes them want to come to NZ.

 rotfl   rotfl  Well there have probably been many worse reasons to pick a location for higher ed. My own choice method owed a considerable amount to the dartboard method! Perhaps a little unfair, I did take the advice of a much respected Chemistry teacher. But in retrospect, he knew very little of the choice. And later having taught in Universities I would suggest that even those within their teaching staff sometimes don't really know too much about what will happen next year. It would be much more convenient if you could enrol for LAST year.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 19, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 988 times:



Quoting Cabso1 (Reply 17):
Asians are prestige hunters. The more highly ranked, the better.

Isn't that generalizing.....It actually depends on an individual...Its like saying all Austrailians are racists or all Englishmen are stiff upper lip.......Which is obviously not true.

regds
MEL.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineCabso1 From Canada, joined May 2005, 502 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 983 times:



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 19):
Isn't that generalizing.....It actually depends on an individual...Its like saying all Austrailians are racists or all Englishmen are stiff upper lip.......Which is obviously not true.

Yes, it is. It's stereotyping too, should have said a majority of Asians. I'm guilty of it myself.


User currently offlineAg92 From India, joined Jul 2006, 1317 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 974 times:

Well, let me give my opinion on this

I am in my final year of schooling and am about to start applying to the USA, followed by Canada and then Australia.

I will talk about Australia

Why Australia: Well because I love the country, however in terms of university it is on last priority, the first reason being the start times. I end in June, and wasting 6 months of my time to go to Australia is not something I am very interested in. The secon reason which is more relevant to the situation is the security issue. I have heard one to many stories of Indians being attacked as well as alot of racism present. I'm not saying Australians are, I am saying I have heard. My only experience with Australia has been amazing, the 1 week I spent in small towns off Adelaide as well as in Sydney for less then a day after SQ 380, and have loved them both, however living there may be a different story which i can only rely on others to tell me and they haven't been positive.

Also, an issue related to prestige, yes I feel that there may be less prestige associated with saying I graduated from an Australian University rather then an American University within my Indian society, however that is not somethinng our generation really cares about.


Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Tips For An International Business Student posted Sat Aug 15 2009 22:24:39 by Ipodguy7
Sikh Student Attacked In Australia posted Tue Jun 30 2009 07:59:31 by HAWK21M
Pittsburgh Student Used Snake As Jump Rope posted Wed May 20 2009 05:23:38 by September11
Student To Be Suspended For Going To Prom... posted Mon May 11 2009 00:53:02 by FRAspotter
Any College Student Registered For Fall Classes? posted Sat May 9 2009 11:31:14 by MCOflyer
I Need Your Help To Fill Out A Survey! posted Sat Apr 11 2009 09:53:20 by YLWbased
Informal Survey For Those Of You With HSAs posted Thu Apr 2 2009 15:46:34 by 767Lover
HR 875 "‘‘Food Safety Modernization Act Of 2009’’ posted Sun Mar 22 2009 12:47:12 by MadameConcorde
Who Sleeps Around? Global Promiscuity Survey posted Thu Feb 12 2009 23:11:40 by Andaman
Beard Survey posted Fri Oct 10 2008 22:09:30 by Umfolozi