Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 6440 posts, RR: 36 Reply 4, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1251 times:
Quoting N1120A (Thread starter): Pretty sickening. Israel can never have the moral high ground when they do things like this.
Considering that they don't do it the Palestinian way (blowing up the buildings with the people still in them), I think they still have the high ground. The past few years with the much-maligned wall in place have allowed people to forget the crap that went on on a daily basis.
Back in the 90s I was quite pro-Palestinian. But over the past 10 years I have lost just about all my respect for those people, who keep getting chance after chance and blowing it every time.
I am Descartes of Borg. I assimilate, therefore I am
CasInterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2307 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1246 times:
I'd feel a lot more sorry for the palastinians if the houses weren't built without permits in the first place.
I understand that their is a beaurocracy and hipocracy going on in all places in the conflict, but if I built a house or deck on my property without permits, I'd expect the town/state/country to tear it down at their will.
Starrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1016 posts, RR: 2 Reply 6, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1236 times:
Quoting CasInterest (Reply 5): I'd feel a lot more sorry for the palastinians if the houses weren't built without permits in the first place.
I understand that their is a beaurocracy and hipocracy going on in all places in the conflict, but if I built a house or deck on my property without permits, I'd expect the town/state/country to tear it down at their will.
I no longer have a side I support. The houses were built without permits because the Israelis won't issue them to Palestinians.
Aaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 7286 posts, RR: 26 Reply 7, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 1214 times:
Quoting Starrion (Reply 6):
I no longer have a side I support.
Hear, hear. At this point, supporting either side is like choosing between chemotherapy or radiation - both will slowly destroy you with no guarantee of a positive outcome.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
N1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 25729 posts, RR: 86 Reply 8, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1201 times:
Quoting TheCol (Reply 3): Well, I guess that spoils any chances for more peace negotiations in the near future.
Yep. This is the huge problem I have with both sides. They just need to knock it off and talk. That actually worked for a while, and we got Dayton and some real progress out of it. That said, when you are the side with all the money and all the power, it should be easier to act rationally.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Considering that they don't do it the Palestinian way (blowing up the buildings with the people still in them), I think they still have the high ground.
Um, as opposed to launching mortars and rockets at buildings with people still in them?
Quoting Starrion (Reply 6): The houses were built without permits because the Israelis won't issue them to Palestinians.
That is even less an issue than the fact that these were built before the Israeli government had any sort of sovereignty over the land.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
N537FX From Switzerland, joined Oct 2009, 95 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1192 times:
Seeing these houses destroyed is terrible. I know this won't mean much, but I recall reading some place that the number of Jewish owned houses that were demolished in the past year turned out to be quite a high figure as well. Well, the cycle continues.
Despite these troubles, Palestinians living under their own leaders are in bad situations. Arabs living it Israeli controlled areas of East Jerusalem and including Israel proper have it a bit better.
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 14021 posts, RR: 55 Reply 10, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1185 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Considering that they don't do it the Palestinian way (blowing up the buildings with the people still in them), I think they still have the high ground.
The ground might be higher than that of Hamas, but I wouldn't call it "high."
This is disgusting, using bureaucratic bullcrap like this to destroy homes. This is how you make angry, young, Palestinian terrorists.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 11542 posts, RR: 27 Reply 11, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1182 times:
Quoting N1120A (Reply 8): That said, when you are the side with all the money and all the power, it should be easier to act rationally.
But the side with all of the money and power can use the conflict to keep their money and power. The situation is almost at a stalemate and neither side seems likely to budge. The Palestinians have too many radicals in their ranks, the only way I see any progress is if they get a Ghandi or Martin Luther King type leader which isn't particularly likely.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
JM017 From Jamaica, joined Jun 2002, 1189 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1172 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Back in the 90s I was quite pro-Palestinian. But over the past 10 years I have lost just about all my respect for those people, who keep getting chance after chance and blowing it every time.
You and I are two sides of the same coin. I was very much pro-Israel, but find myself losing respect for them. Truth is, neither side seems interested in peace. I still believe in Israel's right to exist, but feel they could handle things differently. As for the Palestinians, well as was once said by Abba Eban, the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
"It's okay to cheat, if you just really don't like to lose."
you know whats sickening? Its that these homes are used for terrorism, on civilans and military.
Odds are in those homes were many weapons that were likely to be used on Israelis, did they show that? no.
I dont remember you guys saying thats sickening when in the early 2000's there were suicide bombs on Israeli buses or for the past 9 years the THOUSANDS of rocket attacks on israeli homes, was that sickening? And in thos cases no the palestinians didnt warn them they tried to kill them, the israelis do have morals and try to do WHATEVER they can to avoid cassulties, did the video show that?
JM017 From Jamaica, joined Jun 2002, 1189 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1146 times:
Quoting A380US (Reply 13): I dont remember you guys saying that's sickening when in the early 2000's there were suicide bombs on Israeli buses or for the past 9 years the THOUSANDS of rocket attacks on Israeli homes, was that sickening? And in those cases no the Palestinians didn't warn them they tried to kill them, the Israelis do have morals and try to do WHATEVER they can to avoid casualties, did the video show that?
Also true....No one can say the Palestinians are blameless here.
And the truth is, even if the Israelis gave up the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Shebba Farms, would there be peace? No. There are some Palestinians who demand nothing less than all of Israel, and some Israelis who believe in possession of the West Bank and who would never consent to the return of East Jerusalem. That's why I now believe there will never be peace. True peace may be possible if both sides disregard the extreme elements within them.
"It's okay to cheat, if you just really don't like to lose."
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 14021 posts, RR: 55 Reply 15, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1133 times:
Quoting JM017 (Reply 12):
You and I are two sides of the same coin. I was very much pro-Israel, but find myself losing respect for them. Truth is, neither side seems interested in peace.
I'm Jewish. Of course I was pro-Israel. It's sacrilege not to be! The Holocaust happened! Thus, Israel deserves to exist.
And Israel deserves to put Palestinians in ghettos in which they live in the 14th century, while the Israelis live next door in the 21st century.
And Israel deserves to knock down their houses.
And Israel deserves to be afforded big weapons.
And Israel deserves to deny the existence of their country, but also deny their Israeli citizenship.
It seems that Israelis are starting to act a lot like the Nazis who Israel keeps using as a justification for its actions.
I don't care that some Palestinians are so fed up with that they're fighting back. I know that they kill civilians with wanton abandon. But Jews, of all people, with all the lessons about the Holocaust that we learn from a young age, should know better than to behave in this manner. And I am disgusted with Israel.
Yellowstone From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3065 posts, RR: 8 Reply 16, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 1127 times:
Quoting A380US (Reply 13): you know whats sickening? Its that these homes are used for terrorism, on civilans and military.
Odds are in those homes were many weapons that were likely to be used on Israelis, did they show that? no.
You have no evidence to support this claim.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
N1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 25729 posts, RR: 86 Reply 17, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1113 times:
Quoting A380US (Reply 13): Its that these homes are used for terrorism, on civilans and military.
You just made that up. There is no indication that any of these homes have been used for terrorism. The Israeli government wants to change the demographics of East Jerusalem by force and also turn it into a tourist area. No more than 20% Arab? Sounds like Ethnic Cleansing to me.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15): Of course I was pro-Israel. It's sacrilege not to be! The Holocaust happened! Thus, Israel deserves to exist.
I hope this is sarcastic. Using genocide and ethnic cleansing to justify...genocide and ethnic cleansing? Using racist, fascist "nationalism" centered around ethnic purity to justify...racist, facist "nationalism" centered around ethnic and religious purity? Those who buy into the concept of true representative, constitutional democracy founded on the bedrock of a secular, color blind government should never support the idea of any state being founded based on religious and ethnic grounds.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
AirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 1729 posts, RR: 24 Reply 18, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1092 times:
I can't believe we have to start a thread every time something like this happens. Do we have to feel sorry for the Palestinians now more than before? No. It doesn't change anything. Next time, it is some Hamas people killing some Israeli civilians with their rockets, and the story goes on and on.
Don't worry - it is. Read the last sentence of DocLightining's post, which I fully agree with.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15): But Jews, of all people, with all the lessons about the Holocaust that we learn from a young age, should know better than to behave in this manner. And I am disgusted with Israel.
Forcing people to have permits to pass through certain areas because they are Palestinian certainly will sound similar to treatment that Jews faced in the 1940's, so yes, Jews should know better than anyone that this type of behavior is unacceptable.
The situation has deteriorated to the level where both sides are committing horrendous crimes, and there is no moral high ground that can be found unless both sides are - yes, it's cliche - willing to come together in peace.
Don't worry - it is. Read the last sentence of DocLightning's post, which I fully agree with.
And it would indeed be interesting to see a detailed rebuttal of his position - with evidence and not bald unsubstantiated assertions. The Doc's of this world make you think it might be OK to be human.
It will be interesting to work more on which part of NO Mrs Clinton thinks should not apply in relation to this issue.
N537FX From Switzerland, joined Oct 2009, 95 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1053 times:
Though I believe Israel policy to the Palestinians is just brutal at times, I don't think you can compare it to those who practiced genocide. Where are the killing factories shepherding Palestinans into? Have Israelis conducted detailed meetings and drafted official government statements planning out the deaths of the Palestinian people by killing them in a high speed way?
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 14021 posts, RR: 55 Reply 22, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1009 times:
Quoting Elite (Reply 19):
Forcing people to have permits to pass through certain areas because they are Palestinian certainly will sound similar to treatment that Jews faced in the 1940's, so yes, Jews should know better than anyone that this type of behavior is unacceptable.
Yeah, for some reason, Israel thinks that they are still taking the moral high ground as long as they aren't actually running concentration camps.
The Holocaust had started *long* before the first Jews arrived at the first concentration camps.
Quoting N537FX (Reply 21): Though I believe Israel policy to the Palestinians is just brutal at times, I don't think you can compare it to those who practiced genocide. Where are the killing factories shepherding Palestinans into?
Why? Because they didn't do it the way the Germans do and carefully plan and organize the whole thing? Because it's not their stated position to end the "Palestinian Race"? Because there aren't death camps?
Israel is behaving in a manner that is reminiscent of, although not identical to, the Nazis. No, they haven't gone the whole hog and built gas chambers, but many of their policies towards Palestinians are shockingly similar to Nazi policies.
I don't use Nazi comparisons lightly. It just blows my mind that I would ever think it appropriate to apply it to Israel, of all countries.
A380US From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2357 posts, RR: 1 Reply 23, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 942 times:
Quoting N1120A (Reply 17): You just made that up. There is no indication that any of these homes have been used for terrorism. The Israeli government wants to change the demographics of East Jerusalem by force and also turn it into a tourist area. No more than 20% Arab? Sounds like Ethnic Cleansing to me.
I acctually have actually been told so by a number of israeli soldiers i know.
Including my very close friend who has told me countless stories of people trying to come through his Nablus checkpoint with people coming with grenades, guns, explosives and more! but i guess thats not evidence for you. I do understand i cant give you guys these facts but for me these are enough.
N1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 25729 posts, RR: 86 Reply 24, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 925 times:
Quoting A380US (Reply 23):
I acctually have actually been told so by a number of israeli soldiers i know.
Riiiiight. Just like they didn't get building permits from the Ottomans, so they are illegally there and Israel gets to destroy them and develop a tourist site.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
Even though I can't confirm that specific account given by A380US, I've heard similar accounts by a number of Palestinians regarding other residences near Jerusalem. I was actually warned on two occasions not to enter the area in question without a security escort.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 14021 posts, RR: 55 Reply 26, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 944 times:
Quoting A380US (Reply 23):
I acctually have actually been told so by a number of israeli soldiers i know.
Yes, because Israeli soldiers are a nice, unbiased source. And because no Israeli would ever be racist towards a Palestinian.
JFK69 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1346 posts, RR: 1 Reply 28, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 916 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 26): Yes, because Israeli soldiers are a nice, unbiased source. And because no Israeli would ever be racist towards a Palestinian
With all due respect, many many many of the Israeli soldiers would rather not be there but they understand the idea of securing their country. You can take any army in the world and find a few bad ones, Just look at FT. Hood yesterday.
Many of these soldiers are the ones who have missles fired at them in their homes in Sderot, Ashkelon etc...
A380US From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2357 posts, RR: 1 Reply 29, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 886 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 26): Yes, because Israeli soldiers are a nice, unbiased source. And because no Israeli would ever be racist towards a Palestinian. Â
Wouldnt you agree that your biased with that statement???
I mean personally i have been attacked by people similar to this but they were lebanese in the 2006 war, but in no way do i judge lebanese people! Im sorry but i know these soldiers and biased or not, a grenade coming at them, theres no excuses!
SOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 2775 posts, RR: 16 Reply 30, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 842 times:
Quoting A380US (Reply 13): you know whats sickening? Its that these homes are used for terrorism, on civilans and military.
Odds are in those homes were many weapons that were likely to be used on Israelis, did they show that? no
If that is the case then the reason Israeli gov should give it as the reason for destroying the houses and not the lack of permits. So what you are saying is wrong.
Quoting A380US (Reply 13): I dont remember you guys saying thats sickening when in the early 2000's there were suicide bombs on Israeli buses or for the past 9 years the THOUSANDS of rocket attacks on israeli homes, was that sickening? And in thos cases no the palestinians didnt warn them they tried to kill them, the israelis do have morals and try to do WHATEVER they can to avoid cassulties, did the video show that?
I presume you did not read any of my previous postings, so for your benefit let me repeat my stand
I do not approve of any attack on civilians from either side.
Israel is here to stay
Palestinians have a right for there own homeland.
Jerusalem should be an open city for all 3 religions similar to the Vatican.
I hope the above is clear to you.
Racko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4736 posts, RR: 23 Reply 31, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 838 times:
Quoting A380US (Reply 13): I dont remember you guys saying thats sickening when in the early 2000's there were suicide bombs on Israeli buses or for the past 9 years the THOUSANDS of rocket attacks on israeli homes, was that sickening?
Considering that you joined this site in 2007 and that your age group puts you between age 7 and 11 in the year 2000 I think it's not really surprising that you don't remember it.
Baroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 60 Reply 32, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 829 times:
Quoting Racko (Reply 31): I think it's not really surprising that you don't remember it.
I do however remember being told that the actions of Stern Gang and Irgun at an earlier time were just fine and no blot at all on the escutcheon of certain PMs "beginning" as it were with Menachem. So you just have to accept selective memory is part of the game Racko, however irritating it might be to those with a functioning memory.
AlexEU From Serbia, joined Oct 2007, 1779 posts, RR: 2 Reply 33, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 816 times:
I don´t blame Israel. I blame the west for supporting Israel.
When South Africa was doing similar things, the whole world has sanctioned them. Now that Israel is doing even the worse things, we just hear empty stories from people like Obama, and then they get the Nobel prize.
A380US From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2357 posts, RR: 1 Reply 34, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 780 times:
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 30): If that is the case then the reason Israeli gov should give it as the reason for destroying the houses and not the lack of permits. So what you are saying is wrong.
Ok well thats not really how politics work. Weather the public finds out or not Israel, the USA and pretty much everycountry in the world operate special missions and do things, something people know some they dont. Regardless of what they call it people get mad.
In the begining of the year when israel retaliated against Gaza thats what they did and people still got mad!
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 30):
I presume you did not read any of my previous postings, so for your benefit let me repeat my stand
I do not approve of any attack on civilians from either side.
Israel is here to stay
Palestinians have a right for there own homeland.
Jerusalem should be an open city for all 3 religions similar to the Vatican.
I hope the above is clear to you.
Israel has always been open to this, if you look at history Israel always accepted that vote, but the palestinians didnt! They only request Israel doesnt exist.
Aero145 From Iceland, joined Jan 2005, 3045 posts, RR: 27 Reply 35, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 777 times:
Quoting A380US (Reply 34): They only request Israel doesnt exist.
If you look at it from an, let’s say, old Palestinian’s point of view, whose wife and children were killed by an air strike from the Israelis many many years ago, would you want Israel to exist? Let’s say that that man was born around 1940, then he had even experienced living in Palestine where Jews and Muslims didn’t have problems with each other.
One cannot always look at this from a personal point of view.
A380US From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2357 posts, RR: 1 Reply 36, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 754 times:
Quoting Aero145 (Reply 35): If you look at it from an, let’s say, old Palestinian’s point of view, whose wife and children were killed by an air strike from the Israelis many many years ago, would you want Israel to exist? Let’s say that that man was born around 1940, then he had even experienced living in Palestine where Jews and Muslims didn’t have problems with each other.
Ya but in 1948 they were given the option for their own state, but denied it.
SOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 2775 posts, RR: 16 Reply 37, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 749 times:
Quoting A380US (Reply 36): Ya but in 1948 they were given the option for their own state, but denied it.
What option?
Instead owning you country you get half of one, then the other side will bring thousands and thousands of people from all over the world, occupy your home, land. In that an option in your books?
A380US From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2357 posts, RR: 1 Reply 38, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 729 times:
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 37): Instead owning you country you get half of one, then the other side will bring thousands and thousands of people from all over the world, occupy your home, land. In that an option in your books?
O ya how about all the other countries in the area that for years brought thousands and thousands of soldiers to try and destroy Israel????? There were multiple instances, and no such thing as half a country. Israel was willing to settle for whatever they could get, the Palestinians would only settle for no Israel.
SOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 2775 posts, RR: 16 Reply 39, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 724 times:
Quoting A380US (Reply 38): Israel was willing to settle for whatever they could get, the Palestinians would only settle for no Israel.
Settle on what ground? It is not there land to start with.
Quoting A380US (Reply 38): O ya how about all the other countries in the area that for years brought thousands and thousands of soldiers to try and destroy Israel
Did not know that you can import soldiers.
Also
Quoting A380US (Reply 34): Ok well thats not really how politics work. Weather the public finds out or not Israel, the USA and pretty much everycountry in the world operate special missions and do things, something people know some they dont. Regardless of what they call it people get mad.
This is a good one. Israel can prove those houses did have so called terrorists and arms and they used a bogus reason to blow those houses. Sorry can not believe that.
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