Alberchico From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 2508 posts, RR: 0 Posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2351 times:
Come on its Italy. Christianity isn't just a religion its part of their history and culture. Is the EU going too far in their battle for political correctness ?
Thoughts ???
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
MadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 9218 posts, RR: 50 Reply 1, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2339 times:
This is becoming more and more common. A lot of elementary schools in France are now banning Christmas trees not to discriminate against children coming from a non-Christian background.
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
N1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 25729 posts, RR: 86 Reply 2, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2300 times:
Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter): Come on its Italy. Christianity isn't just a religion its part of their history and culture. Is the EU going too far in their battle for political correctness ?
There is nothing about political correctness, it is about governmental secularism. There is no place for specifically religious symbols in a public school in a constitutional, representative democracy like Italy.
The place I can actually see this being an issue is in Germany, where the Constitution was written in a way that is very different to the first modern constitution, the US Constitution. Instead of negative liberties, it specifically grants civil rights and mandates that the government facilitate those. That means public Catholic schools in Bavaria, public Yeshivas in large Jewish areas, etc. If a challenge was made to the German system, there would be a major constitutional dilemma. Then again, as long as a secular public alternative exists, I think the German system will pass muster with Strasbourg.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
LTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 53 Reply 3, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2291 times:
Quoting N1120A (Reply 2): The place I can actually see this being an issue is in Germany
The issue in Germany, particularly about the crucifixes in Bavaria, has been discussed ad nauseam in the media and among people. The big problem with Bavaria is that, at least when I was still there in 1997, that crufixies continued to hang on doors in plain public schools. If the school was a catholic, jewish or muslim school for example, fine, but if the school is supposed to be secular, then why hang a crucifix? Besides, there are also non-catholics and non-christians who attend those schools, and they may feel disturbed if not offended by this.
To me, this isn't about political correctness, it's about doing the right thing in a secular world. In my time in elemtary school, all those who were not christians were excused from participating in religion class. They went to a big room inside our classroom, where they could be supervised and where tehy could mind their own business, while the rest participates in religion lessons
Asturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 1769 posts, RR: 19 Reply 4, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2268 times:
Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter): Is the EU going too far in their battle for political correctness ?
This has nothing to do with the EU, but rather the European Court of Human Rights - which is completely independent of the EU.
It's jurisdiction spans Russia and many other non-EU countries, members of the Council of Europe (not to be confused with Consilium, the European Council) and those countries that have ratified the European Convention on Human Rights.
The court was set up in 1950, thus older than the European Union (and all it's previous incarnations)
But, yes. They are very politically correct, which can be quite a problem, but mostly they just try to adhere to what is established as a general rule within the jurisdiction they serve.
N1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 25729 posts, RR: 86 Reply 5, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2240 times:
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 3):
The issue in Germany, particularly about the crucifixes in Bavaria, has been discussed ad nauseam in the media and among people. The big problem with Bavaria is that, at least when I was still there in 1997, that crufixies continued to hang on doors in plain public schools.
Different issue than the one I was talking about actually.
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 3):
To me, this isn't about political correctness, it's about doing the right thing in a secular world.
Absolutely
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
ScrubbsYWG From Canada, joined Mar 2007, 1468 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2232 times:
Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter): Come on its Italy. Christianity isn't just a religion its part of their history and culture. Is the EU going too far in their battle for political correctness ?
something out of my lonely planet book i got when i was traveling in italy recently said 87% identify themselves as catholic, yet only 36% consider themselves practicing, and only 30% attend church regularly.
Maverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 3807 posts, RR: 4 Reply 7, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2229 times:
To all the EU supporters who said national identity wouldn't be eroded:
Told ya so.
Quoting N1120A (Reply 2): There is no place for specifically religious symbols in a public school in a constitutional, representative democracy like Italy.
As an outsider, I agree. However, it is up to the Italians to make that determination for themselves, whether a cross by itself violates some fundamental human right.
AlexEU From Serbia, joined Oct 2007, 1778 posts, RR: 2 Reply 10, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2162 times:
Shame for Italy. I don´t see how a Cross itself can harm anybody, even those from other religions. Maybe someone will say that Italian flag is harming them, so they may need to pull the flag out?
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 1): This is becoming more and more common. A lot of elementary schools in France are now banning Christmas trees not to discriminate against children coming from a non-Christian background.
If they don´t like it, they should go back to were they came from. I am a Christian living in a Muslim country, and I have nothing against their traditions, signs, holidays... If I would, I would pack myself and leave the country,
RussianJet From Kazakhstan, joined Jul 2007, 4946 posts, RR: 25 Reply 11, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2150 times:
For me, the stupidest part of the whole thing is this:
Quote:
Mrs Lautsi complained to the European court that her children had to attend a public school in northern Italy that had crucifixes in every room.
She was awarded 5,000 euros ($7,400; £4,500) in damages.
Lewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3092 posts, RR: 6 Reply 12, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2102 times:
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 1): This is becoming more and more common. A lot of elementary schools in France are now banning Christmas trees not to discriminate against children coming from a non-Christian background.
So a Christmas tree is sort of discrimination against non-christians or even offensive? What I found offensive was waking up to an Imam's voice every morning when living in Rotterdam and London (as if I am obligated to listen to it), not being able to buy alcohol at all cornershops around the area (and being frowned upon for asking if they carry it) because they were owned by Muslims. What's next? Banning the use of the cross from hospitals because it is offensive for some people?
Israel is also supposed to be a secular state (right?), but I doubt you can get much done on a Saturday.
Quoting AlexEU (Reply 10): If they don´t like it, they should go back to were they came from. I am a Christian living in a Muslim country, and I have nothing against their traditions, signs, holidays... If I would, I would pack myself and leave the country,
Yep, she was awarded damages as well. I am not a religious person, I consider myself atheist but I do enjoy Christmas holidays etc, not from a religious point of view, but for the atmosphere and the local traditions that this celebration carries with it. Same goes for Easter and all other religious holidays. People need to chill.
Quoting AlexEU (Reply 10): Maybe someone will say that Italian flag is harming them, so they may need to pull the flag out?
Sadly, I can see this coming. If non-Christians or atheists are offended by the presence of the cross, they must also be offended that the cross is a key part of their country's flag (Switzerland, Greece, Scandinavian Countries, UK and the list goes on...)
Personally, I'm glad that the Holy Father's intervention in the affair was unsuccessful.
Ms. Lautsi, coming from Finland, is almost certainly a Lutheran by upbringing, and up here even Christians can do without the graphic 3D-image of a dying person on an instrument of torture being displayed in front of schoolchildren.
MadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 9218 posts, RR: 50 Reply 14, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2087 times:
This is not about crosses. This is about hundreds of years of tradition.
Schools were started by monasteries in the old ages.
There was nothing such as "public" or "government" schools until I think the 19th Century.
I am in the middle of moving so I have no time to check on the historical side of this.
One new law will wipe away hundreds of years of tradition.
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
HAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 30161 posts, RR: 61 Reply 15, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2061 times:
Amazingly out here Catholic school classrooms have a Crucifix in every room & most hotelskeep a Bible/Gita/koran in every room too.
Some places have pics of gods of "All"religons in their shops/restraunts/malls.
I guess better to have all gods everywhere than no god anyplace
Braybuddy From Ireland, joined Aug 2004, 4957 posts, RR: 39 Reply 16, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2017 times:
Quoting AverageUser (Reply 16): up here even Christians can do without the graphic 3D-image of a dying person on an instrument of torture being displayed in front of schoolchildren.
LTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 53 Reply 17, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1974 times:
Quoting Francoflier (Reply 9): What have crucifixes or religion got to do with national identity?
Exactly! They have nothing to do with a country's national identity (though the Vatican and the German state of Bayern may claim otherwise). I personally believe that a crucifix has nothing to do in a secular school, because it's seen as imposing a religion on somebody.
I'm an Atheist and I would like to give my children the choice of whether they want to become Christians or not. That choice should not be imposed on them. Bad enough that Bayern is complaining about this ruling, now we have once again the Anti-EU crowd making conspiracy theories that are the basis for this ruling. The EU has its flaws, but many of them are offset by the good things this supranational entity has done in its over 50 years of existence.
Shamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 3756 posts, RR: 14 Reply 18, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1971 times:
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 7): To all the EU supporters who said national identity wouldn't be eroded:
Told ya so.
Eh, how is this about national identity?? My identity hasnt been eroded one bit, and I am an EU national, and a catholic in a country where cathlolicism is allegedly part of the culture....
Most of these laws, for example in france, have come from national parliaments, and not from the EU, so can we stop trying to blame the EU for everything? Its getting a little old and is excusing people from actually informing themselves on particular issues.
Why should I as a catholic, have the right to ensure the symbols of my religion take priority in places where there are non catholics?
Your faith should be for you to practice in your private time, not to be shoved down your throat in a public school. Schools should seek to morally educate, but not to one Church's particular tune.
Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
AverageUser From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1972 times:
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 22): The EU has its flaws, but many of them are offset by the good things this supranational entity has done in its over 50 years of existence.
Again, this is not an EU ruling. The court is not an EU body.
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 22): Bad enough that Bayern is complaining about this ruling, now we have once again the Anti-EU crowd making conspiracy theories that are the basis for this ruling
The state of Bayern can not be complaining about the decision, since they're not a signatory. Neither can the German Federation, since they're not in the case.
I can't understand the media writes about the decision "not being final". The procedure is quite clear, see below. However, since the Court is not above national laws and the signatories remain sovereign countries, the Court can't rewrite any laws, and it's up to the signatories to implement any required changes in the laws.
Under Article 43 of the European Convention on Human Rights, within three months from the date of a Chamber judgment, any party to the case may, in exceptional cases, request that the case be referred to the 17-member Grand Chamber of the Court. In that event, a panel of five judges considers whether the case raises a serious question affecting the interpretation or application of the Convention or its protocols, or a serious issue of general importance, in which case the Grand Chamber will deliver a final judgment. If no such question or issue arises, the panel will reject the request, at which point the judgment becomes final. Otherwise Chamber judgments become final on the expiry of the three-month period or earlier if the parties declare that they do not intend to make a request to refer
I know, I'm just trying to make a point with the anti-EU crowd, telling them that while the EU is not perfect, it does have a good side.
Quoting AverageUser (Reply 24): The state of Bayern can not be complaining about the decision, since they're not a signatory.
They don't really care. Hell, they didn't even want to ratify the constitution after the war because they feared it would infringe on their rights as a state in a federal union. I recall the Bayernpartei, a local party in Bayern, even stated that Bayern would do even better if it was independent from Germany. That was during the 05 elections, and there's even a parody of that.
Trvyyz From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1266 posts, RR: 13 Reply 21, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1941 times:
Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 21):
Quoting AverageUser (Reply 16):
up here even Christians can do without the graphic 3D-image of a dying person on an instrument of torture being displayed in front of schoolchildren.
LOL! Scary really, when you think about it.
That is so ignorant.
The cross means sacrifice, "Someone" dying for the sins of others. It is not meant to be scary.
N1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 25729 posts, RR: 86 Reply 22, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1926 times:
Yellowstone From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3065 posts, RR: 8 Reply 23, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1921 times:
Quoting Trvyyz (Reply 26): That is so ignorant.
The cross means sacrifice, "Someone" dying for the sins of others. It is not meant to be scary.
The cross is and was an implement of torture. Regardless of its status as a symbol of the Christian faith, I seriously doubt that you would be able to stomach watching an actual crucifixion.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
Yes, it is. It was used as means of execution, that would put the victim to death by suffocation.
25 TRVYYZ: Well depends on how you look at it. The Cross has a meaning for Christians and it is not what you think.
26 N1120A: Anyone who hasn't lived under a rock since birth knows what you are talking about, but that has nothing to do with the post.
27 LTU932: Yes. For religious purposes, the cross, as well as e.g. the Bible, is an important symbol of Christianity, just as the Star of David and the Menorah
28 AlexEU: Cross has a symbol of eternal life and eternal love. The Jesus did suffer on cross to clean our sins and to give us eternal life. If there was no res
29 Yellowstone: Yes, to Christians. It's also a symbol of Roman imperialism and torture, and that applies to historically-minded people of all religions. Suppose Jes
30 AM744: Agreed. They could have a national flag if they must have some sort of symbol. It's meant precisely for that meta religious, national unity purposes.
31 AlexEU: Again, thanks to the cross we have eternal life. I´ve never heard anyone, even non-Christians saying that Cross is a symbol of torture. With Cross w
32 LTU932: What about those who killed in the name of Jesus Christ, the very person who died on that cross? What about the crusades? What about the Inquisition?
33 AlexEU: That would be the same as if I offered you a 1 000 000 dollars in 100 dollars note, but you reject it because you don´t like Benjamin Franklin which
34 Yellowstone: I don't understand why the instrument of Jesus's death is being held up as a symbol of eternal life. If eternal life is the topic at hand, why not fo
35 AverageUser: Ok, let's say for the sake of argument this is a fact. Then how does that fact depend on whether the crucifix is displayed in the class or not? Is th
36 AlexEU: Because if there was no death, there would be no ressurection. He destroyed death by death. By reminding us. But even if one doesn´t belive which is
37 AverageUser: You did not say whether that eternal life is somehow revocable by something we do or do not do down here. Is it? And if it is, is it specifically due
38 AlexEU: I don´t know that. If someone gives you a small present you would thank to him. But imagine if someone gives you a present like immortality. Probabl
39 AverageUser: Well, I'm glad you agreed there's no religious need for the symbol to be displayed, and that your eternal life is not being put to risk by its absenc
40 LTBEWR: I think one thing we are seeing today are people standing up to their beliefs and no long brush off being offended by symbols of beliefs of others bei
41 AlexEU: But then again, why remove something that is a symbol of life? lol maybe I am going too far Is the removal of crucifix going to bring something bette
42 AverageUser: Yes, it symbolises the separation of the Church and the State, and underlines the equality of the religionless and people of other faiths regards the
43 PPVRA: I'm an atheist too, but I don't see how a crucifix imposes anything. We have lots and lots of public displays of religion and I don't see it as impos
44 AverageUser: There are many things that are "just display", like bringing up the swastika in Germany. You can bring your kids up with as much religion as you want
45 LTU932: I beg to differ. It may be a display, but it could also be a display of a state imposed religion. Italy has freedom of religion, just like all other
46 MadameConcorde: Italy has a very much right wing government with Silviio Berlusconi as the PM and the Lega Nord in the government, all rather favourable to the Roman
47 Francoflier: The ruling came from the fact that the first lady in your example couldn't 'exercise her right' to bring up her child in a secular environment becaus
48 Bwest: @Madameconcorde: Il Cavaliere said not a single implanted hair on his botox head is thinking about removing the crosses, stressing the importance of t
49 PPVRA: I take issue with a display meaning imposition, regardless of issue. However, there is a level of "endorsement" that I agree shouldn't happen. The is
50 AverageUser: If you want me to comment that needs to be translated into English, please.
51 PPVRA: In other words, A display does not equal imposition. A display by the Government of religious symbols implies a certain endorsement of religion, whic
52 AverageUser: I think I got it, it's like displaying "Fine Wines" on a sign of an English public house! Ehhms..so you're agreeing with the Court?
53 LTU932: You're contradicting yourself. If a display does not equal imposition in this case, then why would this mean that the government is endorsing a relig
54 Yellowstone: This is not a problem. Secularism is not the opposite of religion, but rather the absence of religion. It is not the government's job to promote reli
55 Janmnastami: The text of the sentence in French: http://www.ilsole24ore.com/fc?cmd=do...ti/2009/11/sentenza_cedu_croci.pdf
56 PPVRA: I didn't really endorse religious symbols at public schools, I merely said it isn't imposing a religion. It is endorsing one, even if only symbolical
57 JFKMan: In a Catholic country like Italy...if you're afraid of the crucifixes...LEAVE!
59 AverageUser: So if I conclude the semantic mess: do you agree or disagree with the Court? No doubt it will come handy should deamons ever visit an Italian school.
60 Yellowstone: I don't see the conflict on the question of sex. A secular school will teach children the facts - what sex is, how it works, various ways to prevent
61 ManuCH: This can probably be considered the "quote of the month" In my opinion, a "western" state must be secular, and crucifixes should be banned from publi
62 AverageUser: No. That's not the case here. If the crucifix were void of symbolic value for the non-Catholics, there would have been absolutely no utility in the c
63 MadameConcorde: The Italian government should organize a referendum nationwide and ask the question "are crucifixes to be taken out of public schools yes or no" and l
64 AverageUser: It was not a decision by the EU but by the European Court of Human Rights, and the way to repeal its decisions is written in the convention itself, t
65 JFKMan: Europe doesn't listen to the people... I thought everyone knew that. Just look at the Lisbon Treaty. Europe is no democracy at all. Next they are goin
66 Cws818: Forget insulting people. Clearly, you are not in the least bit interested in being accurate or well-informed.
67 JFKMan: I consider myself very well-informed. Tell me what I said in my post that was not?
68 Cws818: Are you aware that there are democratic elections for MEPs? (Members of the European Parliament) And yet the EU has elections for MEPs and funds and
69 JFKMan: Yes indeed I am aware of MEPs. The Irish people said NO. NO means NO. Did the EU listen? No...they didn't care. They just needed the 'right' result.
70 Janmnastami: The Irish changed idea after Ireland's economic crash.
72 Janmnastami: There is a misunderstanding: it's true that the Court has "ruled against the use of crucifixes in classrooms", but it hasn't obliged to remove crucifi
73 AverageUser: Sorry, but you seem to have misunderstood the powers of the Court, (and the title is misleading as well in this respect). It can't give any direct or
74 MadameConcorde: The said European court does not have dictatorial powers. It is up to each school to decide to leave or to remove the crucifixes from the classrooms.
75 PPVRA: Neither. There is no right or wrong answer. I guess I'd disagree to the extent they made a ruling on this issue, but I'd disagree either way their ru
76 Yellowstone: If they feel that sex education is inappropriate for their child, they can remove their child from the class during that lesson. That's what my publi
77 Janmnastami: I didn't misunderstood the powers of the Court: I just underlined that the sentence doesn't oblige to remove crucifixes from public schools, it oblig
78 AverageUser: No, it's not. The statute to display the crucifix has been a national level one, and a national level decision will take them down. There's no wiggli
79 PPVRA: Sure, no problem. That's basically how it worked at my middle school (private) with religious classes. We had one Jewish girl in the class and she wo
80 LTU932: That similar to what was done with two Muslim classmates I've had in (public) elementary school. During Religion class, they went into a separate roo
81 Janmnastami: The Italian government is not obliged to comply with the decision removing crocifixes: they can remain, but if someone sues the Government, he will w
82 ManuCH: I know that. And that's why I agree with the decision (being an atheist myself, I would want my state to be secular and not involved in religion), bu
83 AverageUser: No, the decision is a binding one. The compensation is not the issue, but the changes in the national legislation that are now required by the Court
84 Janmnastami: I'll repeat it: the Court has determined the violation of the principle of not believing in any religion and has condemned the Italian government to
85 AverageUser: There's no procedure for anyone to automatically appeal, only in "exceptional cases". The relevant legislation can be found in my post #19. Yes it do
86 Janmnastami: The sentence is not definitive (as the head of the press office of the Court declared) and the government has already said it will appeal: a council
87 ATCtower: I am sure I will ruffle a few feathers with this, and I have two points, but I feel it needs to be said instead of everyone being so damn PC. 1. Gener
88 Yellowstone: Removing the crucifixes does not constitute the minority dictating how you live your life. Suppose you want your child to see the crucifix. If the sc
89 AverageUser: Why do I have to play the part of a broken record? Wrong. See below. * Binding force: Article 46(1) ECHR: ‘The High Contracting Parties undertake t
90 Janmnastami: There hasn't been the final judgement yet, we have to see if the appeal is admissible and what the Grand Chambre will decide.
91 AverageUser: To me it seens very likely there's nothing new the Italian government can present in the case that has not been addressed by the Court already, or wh
92 Janmnastami: In my opinion, the Italian government will try to argue that black is white - for example saying that crucifix isn't not a religious symbol but it's
93 AlexEU: Not really. It´s a point for Satanism, because the Crucifix was removed. If they never had the Crucifix then it would have been neutral.
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