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A Better Idea For U.S. Health Care Reform  
User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4283 posts, RR: 52
Posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2682 times:

Why is it better? Because it is my idea of course! Critiques welcome.

Is a half baked plan better than no plan? The current plan the Democrats want to push through Congress, while well intentioned, fails to truly lower health care costs and make it available to everybody quickly. What we really need is free universal health care. But let's face it. Universal health care by itself will not pass through Congress. To successfully sell universal health care, you need more in the bill and you need a better marketing program. What you need is a comprehensive package.

Luckily, I have come up with an idea: The Business Relief and Growth Act of 2009 (or 2010). Here is what you offer: universal healthcare; a six-month tax free period for small and medium size businesses (defined as businesses with less than 500 employees) for technology or environmental investments (defined as any upgrade or investment in technological processes that will make the business run more efficiently or any environmental investment, including things like reinstalling insulation, that reduce the business's carbon footprint, emissions, or other environmental measures by greater than 5%); and a six-month period for all businesses where any investment in technology will allow for a greatly increased rate of depreciation, meaning large businesses will be able to basically write down their new technology investments at faster rates, allowing them to pay lower taxes over the life of the investment.

Why would this plan work while the current plan has, if not failed, flailed around in uncertainty? It is all about the money and marketing. Sure, market it here and there as a universal health care package. But the sure fire way to get support behind the bill is to market it as a tax break for small businesses and a reinvestment in American businesses. The best part is that you could truthfully market this as an across the board business tax break as well as a reinvestment in American businesses. It would not be a spurious claim, like the Republican Claim of death panels and other such nonsense. You would be able to paint everybody voting against the bill as anti-business, anti-American, pro-tax increase politicians who do not give a damn about their constituents.

But how would it be a reinvestment in American businesses? If the government takes over health care, businesses in the U.S. would save nearly $1 trillion dollars per year that they would otherwise spend on insurance premiums. With $1 trillion saved, companies would have more money to invest in new projects, new building, new employees, and other innovations like new research. Additionally, these technology and environmental purchases will either be tax free (if your business has less than 500 employees) or will have a minimal long term tax hit (for all businesses). Those tax breaks could contribute billions more dollars of potential investment to American businesses, creating new jobs, raising income, alleviating the housing and credit crises, and, potentially, bringing us into a new period of increased income, investment, and employment within 12 months of the bill being enacted.

The bill would come at a cost, true. The United States government would be assuming a greater financial burden by covering health care. However, with healthier citizens, healthier businesses, and more money flowing into the market, the situation would begin to correct itself sooner rather than later. Yes, there are still some areas where the government must cut back spending. Of course, there are also areas where the government needs to increase spending. It is all part of the game. But this plan would promote long term prosperity and an end to the recession, likely within 12-18 months.

Congress, though, is not brave enough to enact such a plan. And that should give us all reason for concern.

Texan


"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
88 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMSNDC9 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2678 times:

You're an even bigger socialist than Pelosi.

Whats free next? Cars? Houses?


User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4283 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2659 times:



Quoting MSNDC9 (Reply 1):
You're an even bigger socialist than Pelosi.

Whats free next? Cars? Houses?

Constructive. Thanks. And providing tax breaks for businesses is not exactly socialist. Neither is promoting business. But what does reality matter if you get to use a scary label?

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26708 posts, RR: 75
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2661 times:

Texan is right. One of the biggest reasons American business has trouble competing, despite our allegedly much more business-friendly laws than other industrialized nations, is the massive burden businesses shoulder in health and retirement costs. Essentially every other industrialized country handles this through the government, which saves massive amounts of money through economies of scale as well as a reduced overall capital outlay by business. People try and focus on taxes, but money paid is money paid, regardless of where it goes.

Quoting MSNDC9 (Reply 1):

Whats free next? Cars? Houses?

So people should have to pay to live? Sounds like the most regressive form of taxation ever.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2656 times:



Quoting MSNDC9 (Reply 1):

Whats free next? Cars? Houses?

 checkmark  Liberals need to get over the whole "health care is a right, not a privilege." Just because we are the wealthiest country in the world, doesn't mean we should have to have a bureaucratically (see incompetent) government run universal health care system. Next, liberals will be demanding that we the TAX PAYING citizens be forced to provide cheap cars, cell phones, and laptops to the poor and needy. I don't get the whole entitlement mindset of liberals, and to them us Conservatives are 'uncompassionate'... Yeah sure

Quoting Texan (Thread starter):
If the government takes over health care, businesses in the U.S. would save nearly $1 trillion dollars per year that they would otherwise spend on insurance premiums.

If this were true, then why does the Democrats current bill cost upwards of 1.2 TRILLION dollars, and subject to balloon even more?? Also, according to the CBO's latest cost estimates on the latest garbage health care bill, the Democrats plan to generate 167 Billion over 10 years in fines paid by businesses and individuals ($750.00 per employee/year) who don't purchase health care...so they are planning on bringing in that 167 billion dollars banking on people not purchasing health care. What will happen if far more people purchase health care? Their BS bill will grow billions more because of lost revenue from penalty fines they won't be getting?? It's absolutely ludicrous.

On a side note, unemployment just hit 10.2%, and the Democrats are still pushing hard as ever to pass a massive tax increasing, massive spending bill?? Even worse for the Democrats, is they are now projecting unemployment will remain above 10% through next summer...good luck in 2010 fellas.



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6646 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2649 times:
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Quoting EA772LR (Reply 4):
Liberals need to get over the whole "health care is a right, not a privilege."

What about "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"?

To have "life".. you need health care..

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 4):
according to the CBO's latest cost estimates

And what was the CBOs report on the Republican Health plan? The report is out you know.



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4283 posts, RR: 52
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2640 times:



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 4):
Liberals need to get over the whole "health care is a right, not a privilege."

The government's job is "to promote the general welfare." What is more basic to general welfare than being healthy and, you know, alive? Furthermore, you are missing the point: this is essentially a tax break for businesses. Of over $1 trillion. Per year. Plus the investment tax breaks I discussed. Which will increase jobs and help revive the economy. But it is so much easier to just label things socialist because you refuse to comprehend that information. Oh well.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 4):
Next, liberals will be demanding that we the TAX PAYING citizens be forced to provide cheap cars, cell phones, and laptops to the poor and needy.

Yes. Making sure people stay alive = let us give free cars, phones and laptops to everybody. Seriously? That may be one of the most flawed slippery slope arguments I have ever read.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 4):
If this were true, then why does the Democrats current bill cost upwards of 1.2 TRILLION dollars, and subject to balloon even more?? Also, according to the CBO's latest cost estimates on the latest garbage health care bill, the Democrats plan to generate 167 Billion over 10 years in fines paid by businesses and individuals ($750.00 per employee/year) who don't purchase health care

As I said, the current bill is not a good bill. I would rather have no bill than a bad bill. But let us put your stats in perspective quickly and assume they would stay true under my idea (which it is not). So a bill would seek to gain $167 billion over ten years. Expensive. Now, let us compare that to how much money businesses save by NOT being required to pay for health care (essentially, a health care tax that I am trying to remove . . . why do you hate businesses and want increased taxation?). That is still a savings over 10 years of over $9 TRILLION dollars. Not to mention the investment tax breaks and increased depreciation available in the other part of my plan. Which would save billions more. Your argument still makes no sense and, under your plan, businesses have less money to spend on their business and more money that must be paid in taxes. Why do you hate American businesses?

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26708 posts, RR: 75
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2634 times:



Quoting Texan (Reply 6):

Seriously. Universal single payer is a PRO-business, PRO-taxpayer solution. Do any of the so called "conservatives" out there understand how much the US auto industry alone would save? Not to mention if we reworked Social Security so it 1) couldn't be raided to pay for other government projects and 2) combined with a reworked Medicare to mean seniors didn't come up short every month?

We have this massively, dangerously deregulated business environment in this country and are just about the most business unfriendly country in the world anymore because of all the ancillary costs business have to take on here. That ain't capitalism folks.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2602 times:



Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
Seriously. Universal single payer is a PRO-business, PRO-taxpayer solution.

No it isn't...at least not the bill in front of us now. It's yet another one of Obama and the liberals bull$hit massive tax/massive spend power grab bills. It's got nothing to do with the 'well being' of Americans and Obama is DEFINITELY NOT PRO anything but government. If Obama wanted to get us out of this recession faster, he'd have paid a lot more attention to providing help to small business. Owning my own business with 6 employees, I can tell you, there was virtually no help for us, only pay backs to his union and wall street pals.

Quoting Texan (Reply 6):
As I said, the current bill is not a good bill.

This we can agree on  checkmark 

Quoting Texan (Reply 6):
Furthermore, you are missing the point: this is essentially a tax break for businesses. Of over $1 trillion. Per year. Plus the investment tax breaks I discussed. Which will increase jobs and help revive the economy.

Well your proposed health care bill would be nice if there was no government control, could guarantee there'd be no health care provided to illegal immigrants, and could guarantee the quality of my health care wouldn't drop. I'm sensitive to these having an older brother whose currently a doctor and captain in the Army. Lowering taxes and cost is always good. But just how realistic do you think it is to cover the 15% of the population w/out health insurance, keeping health care costs down, providing the quality of care we currently have (which is the best in the world-the system is what needs help, not the medicine itself), while still saving 1 Trillion dollars per year??? You are either smarter than all of the Dems and Reps in D.C. or we just have a bunch of morons with no common sense in D.C. It's definitely the latter at the very least.



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineMSNDC9 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2600 times:



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 5):
To have "life".. you need health care..

Everyone in American can get health care. What's your point?


User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2600 times:



Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
We have this massively, dangerously deregulated business environment in this country and are just about the most business unfriendly country in the world anymore because of all the ancillary costs business have to take on here. That ain't capitalism folks.

Neither is anything Obama has proposed. Are you going to call him out on that?? Government takeovers are about the least Capitalist and UnAmerican things I can think of.



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26708 posts, RR: 75
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2595 times:



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 10):

Neither is anything Obama has proposed. Are you going to call him out on that??

Um, I will be the first to say the Democrat plan is imperfect...because it doesn't go far enough.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 10):
Government takeovers are about the least Capitalist and UnAmerican things I can think of.

You have no idea what you are talking about? Incidentally, how often do you use the US Postal Service?



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4283 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2584 times:



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 8):
Well your proposed health care bill would be nice if there was no government control, could guarantee there'd be no health care provided to illegal immigrants, and could guarantee the quality of my health care wouldn't drop. I'm sensitive to these having an older brother whose currently a doctor and captain in the Army. Lowering taxes and cost is always good. But just how realistic do you think it is to cover the 15% of the population w/out health insurance, keeping health care costs down, providing the quality of care we currently have (which is the best in the world-the system is what needs help, not the medicine itself), while still saving 1 Trillion dollars per year???

I have no problem having it run by a non-profit with governmental oversight, like the Swiss have. That way the amount of government interference is minimal and the bureaucracy is reduced dramatically, even from the current private sector. The decrease in bureaucracy saves billions per year, reducing the cost of health care to the government.

Another thing to keep in mind is that I specifically stated this proposal would save private business over $1 trillion per year, not the government. The government cost would increase, although with the decreased administration costs and negotiated deals for medicine and some services, the cost to government should not be astronomical, especially considering the government pays a lot for uninsured individuals already. I do not have exact numbers, though.

More income will come from the normal taxes collected as more people are employed and the tax base increases. Furthermore, businesses will be selling more products, increasing taxes collected there too, without having to raise the tax rate. That should, theoretically, reduce the costs to a manageable level. We do need, however, to continue to streamline governmental programs and processes to reduce costs in other organizations and programs.

I would also disagree that the quality of care we currently have is the best in the world. We rank 31st in Life Expectancy, 37th in Infant Mortality, and 34th in Maternal Mortality. http://www.who.int/whosis/whostat/EN_WHS09_Full.pdf. In terms of avoiding preventable deaths, the U.S. ranked last out of the 19 countries surveyed in another report. http://www.urban.org/uploadedpdf/411947_ushealthcare_quality.pdf. We do have a good health care system, but it needs to be improved and there needs to be equal access.

As a final thought, think of how much money could be saved by allowing people to receive preventative health care instead of having people wait until they need emergency care before going to the hospital. That, too, would reduce health care costs dramatically.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26708 posts, RR: 75
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2576 times:



Quoting Texan (Reply 12):
Another thing to keep in mind is that I specifically stated this proposal would save private business over $1 trillion per year, not the government. The government cost would increase, although with the decreased administration costs and negotiated deals for medicine and some services, the cost to government should not be astronomical, especially considering the government pays a lot for uninsured individuals already. I do not have exact numbers, though.

More income will come from the normal taxes collected as more people are employed and the tax base increases. Furthermore, businesses will be selling more products, increasing taxes collected there too, without having to raise the tax rate. That should, theoretically, reduce the costs to a manageable level. We do need, however, to continue to streamline governmental programs and processes to reduce costs in other organizations and programs.

Not to mention the greater taxes collected from higher profit margins, because businesses will no longer be writing off so much money in health care costs.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4283 posts, RR: 52
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2571 times:



Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
Not to mention the greater taxes collected from higher profit margins, because businesses will no longer be writing off so much money in health care costs.

True, forgot about that!

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2570 times:



Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
US Postal Service?

I avoid it like the plague. If there was another alternative, I'd use it. It's government run...a glimpse of how government run health care would work.

Quoting Texan (Reply 12):
I would also disagree that the quality of care we currently have is the best in the world. We rank 31st in Life Expectancy, 37th in Infant Mortality, and 34th in Maternal Mortality. http://www.who.int/whosis/whostat/EN_WHS09_Full.pdf. In terms of avoiding preventable deaths, the U.S. ranked last out of the 19 countries surveyed in another report. http://www.urban.org/uploadedpdf/411947_ushealthcare_quality.pdf. We do have a good health care system, but it needs to be improved and there needs to be equal access.

But these numbers aren't an accurate reflection of our quality of medicine. How bout we look at the American lifestyle...our diet/exercise/hours of work/etc. We live far more abusive lifestyles than many countries around the world. I lived in Cleveland for years, and they had daily chartered flights to and from Canada that would bring people to the Cleveland Clinic for heart surgeries. When I asked why, a health care professional said because the wait in Canada is too long, and their system is over burdened...see socialized medicine.

Quoting Texan (Reply 12):
As a final thought, think of how much money could be saved by allowing people to receive preventative health care instead of having people wait until they need emergency care before going to the hospital.

This is an important point Texan. It's the preventative care that's critical too. Like I said, my older brother is a doctor, and many of his patients are those who have abused their bodies to oblivion and want him to put them back together. Well that cost money, and a lot of it. And the poor do have health care, and they use it...the ER. On one of my brother's rotations (his OB rotation), 70% of the babies he delivered were Hispanic babies from parents who couldn't speak a lick of English. He had to have a translator...you think illegal immigrants pay their hospital bills? Look at California's Hospital closures due to unpaid medical bills.

Back on point, you are right about preventative care. I think this is one part that is overlooked by many. And I do NOT think that giving everyone affordable access to health care will promote better preventative care. I know several people that have health insurance, but only use it when they absolutely have to, not because of co-pay costs, but because they don't want to go unless it's an emergency. Again, this is a good point, and requires an entirely different thread alone.



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6646 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2569 times:
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Quoting MSNDC9 (Reply 9):
Everyone in American can get health care. What's your point?

How much money do we spend on "liberty"?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2562 times:



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 16):
How much money do we spend on "liberty"?

Well you must have liberty to have health care. You do not have to have health care to have liberty.



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4283 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2556 times:



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 15):
When I asked why, a health care professional said because the wait in Canada is too long, and their system is over burdened.

Well, but then there are some HMO plans like the one my mother is on through her work, that say that if they go to one specific clinic, in which there is only one nurse and one physician's assistant (no doctors), then they receive their preventive care treatment for free. If they go anywhere else, they must pay full price through the first $2,000. Lots of people don't have an extra $2,000 and will just wait until they get sick and go for emergency care rather than wait for an appointment. The current wait time for an appointment at that clinic is 2.5 weeks, by the way, and they do not accept walk ins. HMOs and PPOs are helping wreak havoc on our health care system.

To avoid lengthy delays, we should continue to encourage people to go to medical school. The pay should take care of itself: remember, we are lowering overhead costs for hospitals and doctors by relieving them of having to argue and deal with health insurance companies who do not want to pay for procedures. This decrease in overhead means doctors and hospitals will have more money in their practice to spend elsewhere -- new equipment, technological improvements (see the small/medium size tax break discussed in my proposal), or expanding their practice -- that, in return, should make medical care more accessible for more people. Moreover, with rates negotiated by the non-profit or government run system, other overhead costs, such as CT Scans, MRIs, blood tests, etc., could decrease in cost, making them more available and also adding to the expendable income doctors have. Therefore, doctors win because they will have more money in the bank. Patients win because they have more money in the bank. Businesses win because they are being relieved of major costs. Regular people win because businesses are investing in improvements, creating jobs, which allows more people to buy homes and cars, thereby revitalizing the economy. The government wins because it collects more tax dollars from the revitalized tax base without having to raise taxes, it decreases the cost of medical procedures leading to decreased spending in some areas of medicine, and the government becomes instrumental in promoting the health and safety of its citizens through the initiative. In other words, everybody wins, the economy recovers, and we all lead happier, healthier lives.

You are right, though, that we also need to get off our butts and lead a more active lifestyle and watch our diets. That is indeed worthy of a thread of its own.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineN104UA From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 921 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2552 times:

I have the best plan ever for health care reform

SINGLE PAYER

(i.e. Medicare for ALL)
it is just that simple



"Learn the rules, so you know how to break them properly." -H.H. The Dalai Lama
User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6646 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2552 times:
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Quoting EA772LR (Reply 17):
You do not have to have health care to have liberty.

You have to have life to have liberty..

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 17):
Well you must have liberty to have health care

Actually Cuba has health care.



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2532 times:



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 20):
Actually Cuba has health care.

 rotfl  You got me there...I wonder how magnificent their health care is???



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6646 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2528 times:
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Quoting EA772LR (Reply 21):
rotfl You got me there...I wonder how magnificent their health care is???

You said "health care" not "good health care"

But the reason that i say Cuba - is that in fact their health care, while vastly inferior to the US - is not that bad.

But still there is some form of Health Care - even though they dont have freedom..

How much has Freedom cost the US?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26708 posts, RR: 75
Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2526 times:



Quoting EA772LR (Reply 15):
I avoid it like the plague. If there was another alternative, I'd use it. It's government run...a glimpse of how government run health care would work.

You are kidding, right? 44 cents to send a letter anywhere in the country? It works amazingly well. Also, it is only sort of governmental, you know that, right?



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2522 times:



Quoting N1120A (Reply 23):
You are kidding, right? 44 cents to send a letter anywhere in the country? It works amazingly well. Also, it is only sort of governmental, you know that, right?

Yes I prefer not to go there, because the attitude is always "we move at one pace only folks, so if there's a line, tough luck." There's never any sense of urgency, never any sense of giving a $hit about their customers, and yes I'm aware they're not entirely government run. But I can only imagine how wonderful a health care system run by a bunch of bureaucratic morons who have also, might I add, failed at running medicare and social security, as well as got us trillions in debt, and the mountain of debt (especially under Obama-1.8-2.1 Trillion his first 10 months in office-he even out did Bush and that says a lot) seems to grow exponentially daily. Why would I ever want the government to run our health care???



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
25 N1120A : Um, no. Only because GOP governments decided to raid the Social Security kitty to pay for their bloated, unconservative spending is Social Security h
26 Comorin : N1120A , Texan, great posts as usual. I am a small business owner and provide fully paid health care to my employees. I would really like everyone to
27 Ken777 : So government dollars shouldn't worry about paying out big dollars for the H1N1 virus? Or spending money for any level of public health? Maybe we can
28 EA772LR : that is the most absurd thing I've read in quite some time...the U.S. government taking control of something and reining in spending, saving trillion
29 N1120A : Are you serious? Do you not understand what the massive savings would be if business stopped paying directly for health care? Riiiight. That's why Mr
30 JRDC930 : It doesnt sound too bad. The current plan is certainly very half-baked, and doesnt cover enough people. like you said, we need universal health care,
31 Post contains links EA772LR : I never said government spending money (our tax dollars) to fund research was a bad thing, just government run anything is a bad thing. They've faile
32 Cws818 : Barney Frank is not African American and the Republicans controlled Congress in 2004.
33 OA412 : What a bizarrely convoluted argument. The right to life is a basic human right and is what the entire health care debate is trying to address. You're
34 N1120A : Lets rewind a second. Do you believe that businesses should turn a profit? Do you call yourself a capitalist?
35 TLG : I don't understand where the savings would come from. If the government took over health care, taxes would have to be raised, or a new tax levied, to
36 Seb146 : Remember back in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s when we had millionares and large corporations that made profits but paid high taxes? What is wrong with
37 DocLightning : Let's talk about incompetent bureacracy. I recently left my job and went to COBRA. Filled out the forms, sent in the payments, and then BC continued
38 Post contains links EA772LR : First off, since when is it the Federal Governments job to respond to hurricane damage? Should I call the Feds when my house gets blown away with a t
39 N1120A : Do you also believe in capitalism? That isn't how it would work. Without a profit motive, the costs would drop precipitously. So would economies of s
40 Mir : A life expectancy a little less than a year lower than the US, and an infant mortality rate that's lower than the US. While that hardly paints a comp
41 WarRI1 : Good one, the system is so screwed up now it is ridiculous. I bow once again to your expertize in these matters. We do have some hysterical experts o
42 Ken777 : Barney is gay, not black. But he is a liberal so he might not mind being called black. My Medicare and SS is working as well as it did for my father.
43 Post contains links and images DXing : Of course the corporate income tax rate wouldn't have anything to do with it either right? http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/22917.html
44 DocLightning : Cuba's healthcare is pretty damned good, actually. At least, if what I hear from my physician colleagues who actually did exchange rotations there. T
45 Post contains links San747 : http://www.factcheck.org/askfactchec...dministration_was_the_federal.html Note that whether you do or do not count SS payouts, there was still a surp
46 DXing : That article is incorrect. What they fail to mention is if you took away the SS iou's the government would have then had to borrow the money thruough
47 StarAC17 : Single Payer works but its hard to convince people to take a tax hike that will end up saving them in the long term, which is what the intention of a
48 Post contains links Ken777 : Looking at the advancement of medical knowledge at the time I doubt the issue ever entered the minds of our Founding Fathers. Sort of like they faile
49 DXing : I doubt medical needs entered their minds at all since they would have considered that a personal responsibility, not a right that should be gaurante
50 Ken777 : Or recognize that the delayed delivery is at the private sector level. Some people think that the private sector is perfect and that the public secto
51 WarRI1 : [quote=StarAC17,reply=47]This is bad because when you are out to make money there is no incentive to get people healthy. This is because for an insura
52 DXing : Yet now? Just like his plan for Afghanistan in March is now under review, just like his stimulus plan is now being looked at for any positive includi
53 Continental : Cuba's health care system is ranked right around the USA's. That's pretty incredible, considering how little money they have.
54 StarAC17 : Its great business and if its doing very well considering the world economy at the present time, thats why the insurance companies are fighting so ha
55 Flighty : Correct, if done well, single payer is a tremendous boon to business, stockholders and even Christianity. So I don't understand why Republicans are n
56 StarAC17 : They like being contrarians on everything in what seems to be succeeding in discrediting Obama. If they actually knew single payer would be a bumblin
57 SpeedyGonzales : This qoute fits the republicans perfectly:
58 Ken777 : Unless, of course, the government schedule was based on the representations from the private sector. Why do have a problem understanding that deliver
59 Pyrex : What is scary? That a doctor can make more money prostituting herself for two weeks in a tourist resort than she makes saving lives in an entire year
60 WarRI1 : Cuba is a poor country, what is our excuse for the sad state we have here, maybe greed? Nah! not possible is it? Maybe MM was saying that Cuba's syst
61 WarRI1 : Oh! yes they are doing well. Yes they are fighting hard to keep the Golden Goose going. In my opinion, it certainly is not moral, I do believe that I
62 WarRI1 : All the small business owners that I know, a few, all pay that and more, they are all going broke paying the increases every year. Like you say, when
63 Ken777 : This year's increase is supposed to be minor - only around 10%. As a small business owner I believe it is more effective to shift core medical care c
64 WarRI1 : Amazing, nothing to do with healthcare is ever less than double digit increases now. Nobody that I know is happy with these increases, who would be?
65 DXing : Yet for some reason you get upset that Halliburton and KBR said they could do a service for the military for a fixed price, delivered on that promise
66 Pyrex : No, Cuba can do it because they are a communist dictatorship that enslaves its own citizens by restricitng them from leaving the country and dictatin
67 Ken777 : Why should I be a hypocrite? Cheney, CEO of Haliburton, moves over to the VPOTUS office, is a driving force in getting the Iraq WMD (or OIL) War goin
68 EA CO AS : So if the Framers believed health care was a right, why didn't the government begin providing it in 1789? I guess they must NOT have thought that aft
69 MSNDC9 : This is the problem right here. You see, it’s like music these days. You''ll forgo an album for an iPod download because it’s cheap and easy to g
70 Ken777 : Could it be that for a lot of "health care" in those days people went to the barber for a "bleeding"? They didn't give much thought to NASA, public a
71 WarRI1 : We cannot blame our founding Fathers for anything, they did a marvelous job for their time. The USA is the monument to their wisdom. Who we can blame
72 DXing : One more time. Please name a company that could have done what Halliburton/KBR was tasked with doing. Forget price, just from a logisitical standpoin
73 Post contains links Mt99 : What exactly was Halliburton/KBR asked to do? Do you have the scope/proposal/cost handy? If you cannot provide a detailed scope, then your question i
74 Ken777 : Why does it have to be one single company? Multiple tasks and multiple companies? And why no bids from day one? Now there was that famous "oil indust
75 WarRI1 : All the hoopla and hype now does not change the fact that nothing, nada, has been done until now. Clinton was the last to try, look what we got out o
76 Pyrex : For what it's worth, I couln't be bothered to look up Technip Courbevoie (as you coulndn't be bothered to look up any of the companies you posted) bu
77 Mt99 : Good.. now we start to get a scope of what was asked of them to do.. more details?
78 Ken777 : I wouldn't be surprised if Cheney made that list up and got things started while he was still CEO at Haliburton.
79 Post contains links DXing : Do you know how to research or do you just expect everyone else to do your lifting for you? None the less: http://money.cnn.com/2003/03/25/news/compa
80 Ken777 : And it's easier for one company to shift "costs" between divisions, hiding fraud. How much has Haliburton had to refund in "improper payments"? The r
81 Mt99 : Since you are the one making claims - it falls on you to provide the proof Did you happen to see the COB report on the Republican Health Plan. Do you
82 EA772LR : Come on Ken777. To blame one administration on what happened last year is utterly ridiculous. I find it very odd, that the U.S. economy appeared to b
83 Ken777 : "Appeared" is right. Or, as you said, "The economy was never that strong." Most folks running oil companies are conservatives. My Dad spent 43 years
84 Post contains links DXing : Hmmmm...I hadn't figured that if you have multiple companies doing that it becomes so much easier to track. Of course since they were so good at hidi
85 Post contains links EA772LR : What have liberals delivered to us?? The scariest deficit spending the country has ever seen. The largest expansion of government the country has eve
86 Ken777 : Or Doctor No in the Senate? Senator/Doctor Tom Coburn who has a hold on a bill to deliver more help to wounded vets from the Bush/Cheney wars? Like a
87 EA772LR : Not true my friend. From 1994-2000, Clinton had a Republican House/Senate, and that's why he got things done. The old phrase "Absolute Power Corrupts
88 DXing : Then he is in line with the Senate Majority leader, the Speaker of the House, and the President who have all endorsed paygo.
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