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House Passes Health Care  
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 9003 posts, RR: 10
Posted (6 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4837 times:

It's been a long time in the works, but tonight just after 11 PM the House passed the Health Care Bill.

270 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4839 times:

Curious what Republican voted for it.

User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 9003 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4835 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
Curious what Republican voted for it.

Probably one who is in a swing District with locals in favor of the legislation. Like the Democrats, elections are 12 months away.

User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4819 times:

Not sure of his name but from Louisiana.

User currently offlineCws818 From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1177 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (6 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4810 times:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 3):
Not sure of his name but from Louisiana.

It was Rep. Cao from Louisiana.

volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 9580 posts, RR: 23
Reply 5, posted (6 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4814 times:

Wonderful. The American people made it pretty clear over the summer (and confirmed by every poll) that while they want health care reform, they don't want THIS.

And the big fraud is the idea that this is only a $1 trillion bill. CBO is now saying that it is a $3 trillion bill, even counting hundreds of billions of savings that will of course never happen.

Let's see what happens in the Senate.

Just gimme a pair of loose-fittin’ shoes, some tight pussy, and a warm place to shit, and I’ll be all right.
User currently offlineAustinairport From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 644 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (6 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4783 times:

 Smile  Smile  Smile  Smile  Smile  Smile  Smile  Smile  Smile  Smile  Smile  Smile
Couldn't be happier.
Now just can't wait to see what happens in the Senate.

Whoever said you can do anything you set your mind to has obviously never tried to slam a revolving door!!!
User currently offlineCharles79 From Puerto Rico, joined Mar 2007, 1337 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (6 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4775 times:

I would rather have a proper National Health System but this is a great start. There is hope for this nation after all...


User currently offlineArmitageShanks From Costa Rica, joined Dec 2003, 3797 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (6 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4772 times:

What a sad day for America.

User currently offlineJohnboy From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2652 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (6 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4772 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
It's been a long time in the works, but tonight just after 11 PM the House passed the Health Care Bill.

Excellent job. Major props to Rep. Pelosi, et al.

User currently offlineUal777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1647 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (6 years 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4749 times:

Great! More spending for our bankrupt country...

It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13692 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (6 years 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4731 times:

This is only a first of several major steps toward the changes in access to health care by Americans, but indeed critical. I am very glad this bill passed, I just wish some more D's were on board, although some (like Kunich) didn't do so as didn't go far enough. I suspect there will be a heavy lobbying process on the Senate versions, then the compromise and final bills.

To me, I want it so if one gets sick they don't lose their homes, their life savings or life itself due to a lack of access to affordable health care. I want that 'safety net' to be there. Will the cost be cheap? No, but we have to face the reality that good health care and it's costs are a necessity over and instead of more than we already need quanity of consumer goods.

User currently offlineContinental From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5557 posts, RR: 16
Reply 12, posted (6 years 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4719 times:

Very glad this bill passed! This small step towards achieving this moral imperative is exciting.

User currently offlineN104UA From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 949 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4708 times:

This has made this one of the greatest days ever now we just need Lieberman to fall into line and then we will have AFFORDABLE HEALTH CARE FOR ALL

"Learn the rules, so you know how to break them properly." -H.H. The Dalai Lama
User currently offlineABQ747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 863 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (6 years 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4687 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
It's been a long time in the works, but tonight just after 11 PM the House passed the Health Care Bill.

I am really disappointed to hear this.

The reason New Mexico is so windy is because Texas sucks and Arizona blows.
User currently offlineN104UA From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 949 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4675 times:

Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 14):
Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
It's been a long time in the works, but tonight just after 11 PM the House passed the Health Care Bill.

I am really disappointed to hear this.

This made my day, week and month

"Learn the rules, so you know how to break them properly." -H.H. The Dalai Lama
User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4668 times:

Bring on the Filibuster in the Senate!

User currently offlineJakeOrion From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1256 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (6 years 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4660 times:

Anyone else say, "Oh sh!t....." ???

Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 9580 posts, RR: 23
Reply 18, posted (6 years 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4648 times:

It's honestly depressing to know that some people think that this is the best Congress can do.


Just gimme a pair of loose-fittin’ shoes, some tight pussy, and a warm place to shit, and I’ll be all right.
User currently offlineYellowstone From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3071 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (6 years 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4633 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
It's honestly depressing to know that some people think that this is the best Congress can do.

As if the same diagram for the current insurance system is any less complicated. And if complexity is the criterion on which the system should be judged, surely a single-payer system would be optimal?

Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8939 posts, RR: 26
Reply 20, posted (6 years 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4627 times:

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 19):
And if complexity is the criterion on which the system should be judged, surely a single-payer system would be optimal?

Oh no don't go saying that - you've opened the anathema can of worms. Single-payer is the most simple and most efficient system out there - too bad all the ideologues who worship the Blue Cross/Blue Shield establishment will never admit it.

If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8939 posts, RR: 26
Reply 21, posted (6 years 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4600 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
It's honestly depressing to know that some people think that this is the best Congress can do.

On another note "Program to treat of..." can't anyone make a critical poster without scathing grammatical errors anymore? Really weakens the message.

If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineJohnboy From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2652 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (6 years 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4563 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):

It's honestly depressing to know that some people think that this is the best Congress can do.

i'm glad you agree. single-payer would go a long way to alleviate that.

User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 9580 posts, RR: 23
Reply 23, posted (6 years 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4561 times:

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 19):
As if the same diagram for the current insurance system is any less complicated. And if complexity is the criterion on which the system should be judged, surely a single-payer system would be optimal?

I could write an English language (as opposed to legal) reform bill that contains all the key elements of health care reform, including universal coverage, protections from insurer abuse, pre-existing conditions and so forth in maybe 10 pages. I can imagine two new government agencies being created, which would be mainly charged with enforcement. Total federal budget impact, maybe $1 billion per year, at the outside.

Quoting Continental (Reply 12):
Very glad this bill passed! This small step towards achieving this moral imperative is exciting.

This is the kind of thinking that has ruined our country - the same kind of thinking that a spoiled kid displays when he wants Playstations and other expensive toys and throws a tantrum when his parents who are barely scratching by on the mortgage and utilities can't afford it.

Don't you guys get it? We can't afford this, especially this overbloated beast.

Just gimme a pair of loose-fittin’ shoes, some tight pussy, and a warm place to shit, and I’ll be all right.
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7793 posts, RR: 20
Reply 24, posted (6 years 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4542 times:

Quoting Ual777 (Reply 10):
Great! More spending for our bankrupt country...

Yes, on healthcare for the people. Good. Some things are worth going the extra mile for.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 19):
As if the same diagram for the current insurance system is any less complicated. And if complexity is the criterion on which the system should be judged, surely a single-payer system would be optimal?

Exactly. People want to try and make you think that there was no such thing as overly-complex beauracracy prior to this scheme.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 24):
We can't afford this, especially this overbloated beast.

Then maybe the country should figure out its priorities properly, and save on areas such as waging war. Then it could be easily affordable.

✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
25 AGM100 : A major victory for socialism. Well , as a citizen I did my best to appose it. I wrote letters , I made phone calls , went to rallies and donated to a
26 Post contains links DXing : Please. Maybe there is a brain with some math skills in that chamber. Of course. When there is no other system allowed by law it looks that way. What
27 Seb146 : Kinda like the war in Iraq, the war in Afganistan, the war on terror, the war on drugs, the war in Korea, the war in Vietnam.... Don't fool yourself.
28 Continental : LOL! Short-sighted comments like this make me laugh everyday!
29 Dreadnought : Who's the short-sighted one - the person who wants something "for free", or the person worried about being able to pay for it?
30 AGM100 : They simply do not get that idea .... they forget the reason that there is available funds in the treasury is solely the result of the actions of fre
31 Charles79 : That's what I'm hoping for, that in the long run we use the foundations of this legislation to go ahead and implement a single-payer system down the
32 Ken777 : Actually the chart is a farce that some yo-yo in Bonher's office dreamed up - probably with the help of the health insurance lobby. It has as much re
33 LAXintl : Hopefully the Senate has the brains and balls to stop this needless, wasteful and pure socialist like agenda. But rest assured, the price will be paid
34 FuturePilot16 : Well I can already hear the whining begin from the right. "They passed the bill without listening to our ideas, the don't wanna be bipartisan". I'm gl
35 MadameConcorde : Could somebody care to summarize this health care plan for those of us who do not live in the US and don't know what is in it? Is it that Americans wi
36 A342 : Most Americans don't seem to have a clue about what socialism is. From the Encyclopedia Britannica: "System of social organization in which private p
37 Continental : And by short-sighted I meant thoughtless.
38 MadameConcorde : They passed it by only 5 votes? Now it has to go to the Senate if I am right.
39 Dreadnought : The question still stands - Who is the thoughtless one, the one who wants something regardless of cost, or those who try to balance cost vs benefit (
40 RussianJet : You got that one right. Numerous threads have evidenced that. I love the way that extending access to healthcare to the poorest in society is describ
41 Post contains images N104UA : " target=_blank>http://www.floppingaces.net/wp-conte...9.jpg Look how easy of a decision Single Payer is If you want socialism move to Cuba, oh wait
42 Ken777 : Well, I get health care from Medicare and a monthly check from Social Security because someone was lo g sighted enough to ensure I made monthly payme
43 Post contains images PPVRA : Here's a picture of another single-payer system: Now that is the word in optimality and efficiency.
44 Post contains images PPVRA : Doesn't get much simpler than a patient paying their doctors directly. You're trying to capitalize on the word single, but it's also a third-party pa
45 Post contains links Charles79 : Madame, This PDF file is a good summary of the plan, simply follow the link: http://www.whitehouse.gov/assets/documents/obama_plan_card.PDF In essenc
46 Continental : I was referring to the poster, who stated that this was a victory for socialism.
47 Aaron747 : So the socialist charge continues. How is it that Hong Kong SAR, possibly one of the most free market places on the planet, continues to operate a sy
48 NIKV69 : You guys need to pay attention to the story, the bill has no chance as written in the Senate and contrary to popular belief Lieberman has nothing to
49 PPVRA : When you don't have any country in the planet with minimum or no government intervention in health markets to compare to, it sure seems that way.
50 Aaron747 : Perhaps because most reasonable people and cultures don't consider health to be a "market" per se??
51 Continental : Well duh it has no chance at passing in the Senate in its current state. I said it was a small step, not a guarantee. I feel this passing will provid
52 Hawaiian763 : I just begin to wonder, with them possibly pumping a huge amount of money into Health Care Reform how they can even begin to afford it? They are alrea
53 PPVRA : Apparently they don't see road transportation as one either, as one of the pictures I posted above shows.
54 Aaron747 : There are many variables that come into play in transportation planning that are, thankfully, unrelated to healthcare. A bottleneck like that is only
55 Seb146 : Could any of you right-wing cheerleaders please show me where it says anything about socialism (re-distribution of wealth) ANYWHERE in this proposal?
56 Post contains links JakeOrion : The Bill: http://docs.house.gov/rules/health/111_ahcaa.pdf Page 299 We get to pay for people who don't even live here. Page 167: Private insurance co
57 Ken777 : The bill as it stands on Friday? What other steps are involved before it actually becomes law? Senate passage of their Bill? Senate and House working
58 AvObserver : Maybe when you get a real job and have to pay real taxes, you'll understand. If this bill passes the Senate too, you and your own kids will be paying
59 WarRI1 : Yes! what is different about that? I have paid all my life, while many rich did not. Your children and grandchildren will always pay taxes. Of course
60 DXing : Whch like Iraq and Afghanistan all had budgets assigned to them in the legislation that was passed to authorize them, by both democratic party member
61 Ken777 : And budgets will continue to be assigned to taking care of the vets until you're past 100 years old. Bot far off, that one. But certainly not a surpr
62 Aaron747 : I'd like to see anyone on this board who claims to have it all together financially go through that and make it out with anything left. You'd simply
63 Post contains links DXing : Since I'm 50 and the average soldier is less than half that age that is a given. However at some point they will have all passed away and I bet that
64 Aaron747 : If you can find a post where I've had positive things to say about Medicare, please let me know. Medicare is no better. Nothing the US has on the tab
65 NIKV69 : Well with the Dems in power we won't see anything good because they don't want to slash taxes. IMO the best way to start a health care overhaul is to
66 AGM100 : Taxes ..?? Taxes that grow on tax treas ? Or is it from the Obama stash ? Where the hell do you think the money comes from ? The US Treasury receives
67 Seb146 : But, all those were off budget anyway. Meaning: those wars are not part of the "regular" budget. They are above and beyond the normal budget. That wa
68 Yellowstone : This may have been feasible 50 years ago when an employee could reasonably expect to stay at one company his entire career, but with the higher rates
69 Post contains links Ken777 : My father was born 100 years ago and there has not been a time in his 76 years, my life time or (unfortunately) my kids lifetime when there have not
70 Arrow : I've been following this health care debate with a bemused interest, mostly because of the outrageous levels of misinformation that get trotted out ab
71 FlyPNS1 : Except that the free-market has no solution. There is NO profit to be made providing healthcare to the poor/elderly. So either government steps in or
72 MSNDC9 : Moral imperative? It represents govenrment control of one sixth of the US economy. Some of you people and your ideas of how things should be are outr
73 AGM100 : Ya , I guess your right. In the " fundamentally changed " America, profits will be scarce indeed . My friends on the left are exactly correct , with
74 DocLightning : Yes, because healthcare is a fun toy, like a Playstation. I'm not thrilled about it, but maybe we won't have so many people suffering permanent disab
75 Dreadnought : The example is meant to illustrate something demanded but not earned. BTW, I am curious to know if you, as a physician, have seen a patient with a se
76 DocLightning : You have said on this board, unless I'm mistaken, that the government shouldn't be in the business of providing public schools, either. If, on the ot
77 FlyPNS1 : That great system has NEVER had a solution for providing healthcare for the poor/elderly. The free market can do many things, but there are a few tha
78 AGM100 : Doc , who are we gonna blame when the bewildering bureaucratic systems about to be sprung on us takes effect. Simple solution is .... make the insura
79 Ken777 : Things won't get THAT bad - Americans voted out the conservative Administration that started us on that downward slide (close to a free fall, actuall
80 AGM100 : Yes it will , but in the socialists mind that is not bad. A nation of dependents is the goal .... it solidifies their power base . The best scenario
81 DocLightning : So you support a bewildering set of regulations preventing health insurance companies from discriminating against people on the basis of prior condit
82 Ken777 : Actually I used to believe that Republicans were best for both the country AND my well being. That was then. This is now. The last 8 years of Republi
83 Post contains links JakeOrion : *Sigh* Don't complain to me when the system fails. Our infrastructure is trash: http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/transportation/4258053.htm
84 DXing : Because I'm cautious. It's not the same type of insurance either. The company insurance is both health and disability. The outside insurance is life
85 DocLightning : In part, because Bush et al didn't fund infrastructure renewal. Again because of bad policy. As usual? Iraq and Afghanistan didn't happen? My concern
86 JakeOrion : Doc, much respect, but the US government is inefficient, which is a vast understatement. If it was honorable and organized, I wouldn't have any quips
87 Aaron747 : The above is true but unfortunately has nothing to do with a highly-accomplished individual getting screwed into financial ruin by a private insurer.
88 Charles79 : This statement might be true when we are discussing fast food options, but for the most part most US citizens are locked to a particular health insur
89 DocLightning : The patients who need the most care are the ones who cost the insurance companies the most, so that system really doesn't work.
90 Dreadnought : Considering that I, for one, have not received any such check from the evil industry you mention, I wonder if you might find it feasible that the opp
91 Seb146 : I had some "real life" things to do, so I could not respond to this blatant lie. I read pages 546-548 of the document. That covers the whole section
92 Dreadnought : Only in your fevered mind. We need some good, simplified regulation on the industry to dramatically reduce some of the blatant injustices of the curr
93 AvObserver : Not without tort reform and not with the Draconian penalties imposed on citizens in this bill . Sure, it'll likely get watered down in the Senate but
94 Charles79 : Sir, for one I was making a direct reference to the politicians in DC who are quite often "bought" by corporate and other interests (on both sides of
95 Dreadnought : I agree wholeheartedly - but that does not negate the fact that this bill a POS. You don't cure a broken arm by firing a bullet into your gut. This b
96 Ken777 : Might Google the company for lawsuits. Might discover you are not as safe a you think. And employers let their employees know every November. How did
97 WarRI1 : One has to ask, how come the Republicans who just left eight years in power, never did jack about any of it. They knew the problems, but the true mas
98 JakeOrion : If the Bill is so great, why are they having so many problems passing it? Possible it won't get by the Senate from what I'm hearing. Why is that? Let
99 Ken777 : We got in the massive economic malaise/crisis/recession during the conservatives time in office. Remember the massive layoffs under Bush in 2008? Did
100 DocLightning : Yes, but you have working brain. Pity you choose to use it that way. Unfortunately, Dreadnought, the Conservatives in congress opposing this bill hav
101 Baroque : Them is close to my thoughts too. Why make it all so complex? Probably the US trouble is that Bush did not get the US into a bad enough war, remember
102 Aaron747 : If KISS is the barometer for developed countries' ability to do anything sensibly, then most our nations flew the coop long ago
103 Baroque : I must say that my year long experience of Blue Cross (compared with the old UK NHS and the Aus medicare systems) left me totally underwhelmed. Mind
104 Seb146 : Lobbyists and half-truths from the right. Lobbyists and half-truths from the right. No. Because you will be looking at everything anyone from the Dem
105 Ken777 : Because there is a lot of money spent insurance companies to kill it. Spending about a million dollars a day in propaganda from what I understand. Gu
106 JakeOrion : I offered a proposition, you refuse to take it. Hmmm...why is that? I'll hold my end of the bargin, but now your arguments are in severe question. Wh
107 Ken777 : WHy not - as long as the conservatives don't fight funding the programs at a responsible level. Let's define "responsible" as equal to the premium in
108 JakeOrion : Typical. You have to make EVERYTHING complicated. All I have asked is, if this Bill succeeds, I'll eat crow. If this Bill fails, no complaints or ack
109 DXing : Hmmm...I wonder what the surviving spouses and dependents might have to say about that. My neighbor likes Chevy's. The don't work for me because I li
110 Ken777 : Seems like November is the month when insurance companies dump the cost increases on the corporations and individual policy holders. Pour money into
111 AGM100 : What funding increases do the private companies receive ? Are implying the government funds the private insurance industry ? Sorry Ken , the old libe
112 Ken777 : I'm talking about the increases in private health insurance premiums. During the first term of Bush II my insurance premiums doubled. That is the inc
113 Seb146 : But, part of the cost of war IS taking care of veterans. If you don't believe that, you don't have as much patriotism and appriciation for veterans a
114 DocLightning : Then why are we spending more per capita on healthcare than any other country in the world buy about 200%?
115 Post contains links DXing : Yep, keep thinking that. Happily and willingly are two different things. Your arguments all revolve around one basic factor, government "rights" over
116 DXing : Common Doc, you of all people should be able to answer this. Name another country that spends as much of their personal financial budget on discretio
117 Dreadnought : And let's not forget that the US market tends to fund a hell of a lot of medical and drug R&D. One of the reasons that many countries have such cheap
118 Ken777 : No, it revolves around the fact that I trust the government more than I trust some companies in the private sector. And, for me, it has been a wise d
119 Arrow : Given the similarities of lifestyles between Canada and the US, I'd guess we come pretty close. The difference is, a good number of those "discretion
120 Post contains links Njxc500 : I don't know if anyone has seen this video... http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=G44NCvNDLfc
121 JakeOrion : " target=_blank>http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v...NDLfc Dude, don't bring common sense and facts into this argument. I've SHOWN what's actually
122 DocLightning : Brazil (at least among the rich). But those purely discretionary procedures are not factored into these figures. You said it better than I could. And
123 Seb146 : The cost of taking care of war vets is substantially higher because of a number of health issues. Do you honestly think it costs the same to treat a
124 Post contains links DXing : Yes, they have a lot to do with the health care debate. Perhaps you need to talk to Barney Frank and Chris Dodd as well as every other liberal that p
125 DocLightning : You think MRI and CT scanners make for good medicine? You never cease to amaze me. I think a good healthcare system makes for good medicine, not over
126 Baroque : Welcome to my parlour said the spider to the fly. Nice demolition Doc.
127 Seb146 : But, you forget to include the population of Canada versus the population of the United States. Could it be that the United States, with a higher pop
128 Post contains links DXing : I think the numbers show the difference in availability. You know as much as a soldier in a foxhole knows about the totatlity of how the battle is go
129 Arrow : Indeed you do. The only rebuttal the anti-government crowd can come up with is a list of anecdotal horror stories. I read all the pieces DX listed, a
130 Post contains images AverageUser : Right, as someone might have told you, I live in a country with that spends a half of the U.S. level. In the aerial picture of our University Hospita
131 Ken777 : A lot of times the CT Scans are scheduled, just like in the US. It allows for urgent testing when needed and spreads out the work load. Same with MRI
132 EA772LR : Not a chance in hell this will pass in the Senate, thanks NOT to the Republicans, but to some Democrats who are actually paying attention. American Li
133 DocLightning : It is true that the U.S. spends more GOVERNMENT money on research per capita than any other country in the world. However, there are several pharmace
134 Fr8Mech : I've avoided this thread; I know the arguments and am pretty sure a bill will not reach Obama's desk, but I wanted to relate a conversation I just had
135 Ken777 : The hatred the hard conservatives have for anyone who isn't far to the right is a concern in this country. The continual assumption by conservatives
136 Seb146 : In the United States, which has a higher population than Canada and, therefore, a greater need for more MRI and CT machines. Look at it this way: Wou
137 Dreadnought : Jeez, here we go... How is pointing out somebody's status or beliefs hateful? If I point out that Obama is African-American or black, is that hateful
138 Arrow : I don't know what you read, but it's giving you a woefully inaccurate understanding of how good socialized medicine works. You cite one example; your
139 Fr8Mech : My point is that the doctor is available when I need him, not when he's available. I probably could have had the physical next week if I wanted to mo
140 DocLightning : It isn't. But calling it Marxism is inaccurate. Someone just called every country in the EU, Canada, Japan, South Korea, Australia, and New Zealand "
141 Dreadnought : Perhaps, since Marx considered Socialists (as in today's variety, who don't want to go whole-hog communists) as pathetic cowards. But there is little
142 Ken777 : Yep, there you go. And what about the Democrats (and Independents) who don't "revel"? Are they also communist/Marxist/socialist because they don't ma
143 Dreadnought : I did, actually, under a professor who was a full-blooded believer. He would not tolerate dissent either. The way to pass his course was to learn by
144 Post contains links DXing : In case you missed it, which you evidently did, the break down was in in millions of citizens. For every million people there are X amount of scanner
145 DocLightning : No. I refuse, DXing. Because there is no answer I can possibly ever give on any issue that will ever convince you that you are wrong. I have never on
146 DXing : Doc, the same exact thing is true about you. You, like a few others on this forum, and a lot of liberal political leaders, toss out lines like: which
147 Ken777 : Actually I don't. I do, however, consider that the hard right who calls those that disagree with them everything under the sun to be spewing hatred -
148 Seb146 : And how much extra per month do you pay a private insurance company for that privilige? About 5 years ago, I went to YVR. While there, I was stung by
149 EA772LR : No they're not. But Obama/Pelosi/Reid are absolute marxist socialist. They believe that the Government knows best, that the government should control
150 Post contains links DXing : I'm not. What I'm agressive on and what I've said repeatedly is that if these excesses in waste and fraud are so observable, why don't they identify
151 Ken777 : Not quite. Doctors (and other health professionals) treating individuals do not work in a vacuum. In addition to a mountain of pubs that are delivere
152 EA772LR : That's a bit disingenuous Ken. Weren't the Democrats the party of NO under GWB, especially when they got control of the House/Senate?? I guess it was
153 DXing : The analogy stands. Unless they are as I described they get bits and pieces of what is going on. They do not get the financials nor do they see the p
154 DocLightning : Again, nothing I can say will ever convince you, because you are incapable of being convinced.
155 Cws818 : No, they are not. If they believed that the government knows best, then wouldn't they have installed bureaucrats at GM and Chrysler? They are not "ab
156 Cws818 : Everyone is of course free to offer his opinions, and that is a wonderful thing. In certain contexts certain individuals have the benefit of experien
157 DXing : And the exact same reverse is true. He interacts at the patient and low end supervisory level unless there is something he has not spoken of here bef
158 Ken777 : Well, Obama has increased funding to investigate Medicare Fraud to $200 Million and will increase it from $200 Million to $300 Million next year. Som
159 EA772LR : You just don't get it, and there's obviously no way for me to explain it. All of the liberals on here think that just because conservatives on here l
160 Continental : Ok, but could you provide a timeline from now until when things improve? A guesstimate?
161 DXing : Neither President Obama, or any other President can increase funding for anything if it is not already in the budget. Only the House of Represenative
162 Ken777 : I'm an addict? Addicted to what? Taking care of the sick? Honoring Vets? I'm a "reject" - I've had a medical condition that make me unacceptable to h
163 Seb146 : 1 million = 1 million but, what you fail to grasp is 33 million < 304 million so it stands to reason there would be fewer machines in a country with
164 Post contains links DXing : Your medicare and vets benfits. Not that you didn't earn them or pay for them in advance but if cuts in those programs to pay for this lunatic bill c
165 Ken777 : So then you support repeal of Anti-Trust Immunity for health insurance companies? I'm not "addicted" to them - I enjoy the benefits I am receiving, b
166 DocLightning : I've never really had a problem with getting the tests. The problem is that after we do whatever, the insurance company turns around and denies it an
167 Windy95 : Whose fault is that? Not the insurance companies. Know your plan. Call them to find things out before you do it.. We do to avoid this....
168 DocLightning : Bullshit. The average plan is a book over 100 pages thick with small print. I think it's reasonable that your insurance company would pay for a 4mo v
169 Ken777 : But, as I have recently discovered, a lawyer's services are sometimes needed to get past the stone wall insurance companies put up between you and th
170 Windy95 : That is what the 800 number is for.. Once again take personaal responsibility and know your plan. No BullS**t required. A simple call is all that is
171 Ken777 : And all the clerks working in Doctor's offices have to work with how many insurance plans? Personally I would call one day early for a 4 month check
172 Post contains links DXing : Since ratio's aren't simple math I guess we've deduced the problem here. I wonder, did it cost less, even adjusting for time, to take care of a vet i
173 DocLightning : Not directly, but it probably goes into their overall performance reviews. There have been some strikingly revealing exposes about insurance companie
174 Ken777 : If you're an airline dispatcher then you work in an industry that receives a lot of government support. Airports, ATC. Even your weather reports are
175 DXing : As well as fees assigned to airlines and their passengers. Given the sad state of the FAA as it relates to them being able to keep the traffic moving
176 Ken777 : Way to go! It's amazing what some companies will do to screw their customers. It's also rather interesting to watch how some insurance companies can
177 DXing : If you don't have a car, which a lot of city dwellers don't, then you don't have to buy the insurance do you? Since you can't very well do without yo
178 Ken777 : One would hope that you have sufficient experience to accommodate the irregularities an make sure the aircraft is there when it's needed. Sort of lik
179 DXing : The airplane only moves if the government says ok. Just like any procedures and test when you are on the government dole. If they say no, you have no
180 DocLightning : I am not aware of any provision to incarcerate people if they do not buy health insurance. And if they choose to drive, they have to pay licensing fe
181 Seb146 : Right. The problem is you don't understand simple math and ratios. I can not continue to explain something that I feel I have explained six ways from
182 Okie : As a matter of fact there is that provision, fines as well as jail. How else, do you think the government will force people to buy health insurance,
183 EMBQA : A FACT....!! I heard them talking about this on FoxNews Radio.. they even quoted the actual sub-section... I want to say it was 210, 220 something cl
184 EMBQA : Wonder if you'll say the samething when you get your pay check and look at all the taxes they just took out.......[Edited 2009-11-14 20:48:15]
185 DXing : If you don't pay the fine do you think they will just go away? Walking is free. Inconvenient but free. So are bicycles. But to your point: Yes there
186 Continental : I'm having some difficulty finding the imprisonment provision in the bill (for real - not trying to prove a point). Does anybody have the page number
187 DocLightning : Can you quote it from a neutral source (i.e. not Fox News)?
188 Seb146 : How are those benefits paid for?
189 Post contains links DXing : Through the Vetrans Administration. It is a seperate, cabninet level, department that has its own budget seperate and apart from the military. http:/
190 EMBQA : Read the actual Bill... it's on-line. I'd look for you... but headed to the airport in a few minutes.
191 Ken777 : In other words, the government is used to manage air traffic? How many thousands of planes will be in the air at peak times during the work week? Per
192 Continental : I looked it over and could not find it. Can someone please tell me the page number and line number that explains this provision?
193 DXing : I'll remember that if I ever see you complaining about a long delay caused by air traffic control. Those threads are almost a dime a dozen in civ av.
194 Ken777 : As I've noted before, I always planned business trips to accommodate delays, from Mx to Wx. Living in TUL I've been able to shift between ORD (my pre
195 DXing : While weather can have an impact on atc delays, 8mi vis and sct200 is hardly ifr weather and yet will cause a ground delay to NYC. How you plan for a
196 Ken777 : When you need to take a long haul flight for business appointments you need to give yourself time for problems that "might" happen. I would plan for
197 DXing : But they are. They have yet to announce where the cuts, outside of medicare advantage, are going to come from. It can't all come from fraud because u
198 EA772LR : When is enough enough?? When we're working until October before we start making income? When 70% of our paycheck is goes to the feds? Then will liber
199 Seb146 : Actually, that was the mantra of the right. Except the right never wanted "big brother" to take care of us. Just spend, spend, spend getting very lit
200 Ken777 : While Fraud is not a line item in anyone's budget it's foolish to deny it's not there. Reasonable efforts to estimate the extent of fraud are possibl
201 EA772LR : If you agree with Obama's swift move towards the far left, then you are a socialist. You see, you even said it yourself - and I quote your words "hon
202 Arrow : This glib phrase is pure BS and indicates a fundamental failure to understand what real socialism is, and how it works. There are few 100% socialist
203 DocLightning : "swift move?" Look, I donated to his campaign and I was very hopeful, but the one thing that NOBODY can call this administration is "swift."
204 DXing : Correct but this administration has used savings from "fraud" they say is there to account for funding for the health care bill. Corret, but any esti
205 EA772LR : Oh really? Show me a socialized nation with a standard of living as good as the average American. America's success was not established under a socia
206 Continental : So is it in there or not? If so, where?
207 Ken777 : The problems with the conservatives in the last Administration is that they continued to spend taxpayers money on an unnecessary war while the rest o
208 DXing : Page 177 changes the IRS tax code to include a penalty for failure to file the name of the primary insurer of the individual filing the return. It al
209 DocLightning : So you're complaining that the bill includes a provision that says that if you don't pay your taxes, you go to jail. What do you think we should do w
210 Seb146 : It has already been proven that borrowing money hand over fist while cutting our own taxes does not work. The previous administration proved that. Wh
211 DXing : I don't disagree there is fraud. I disagree in using any estimate of how much money will be saved in a budget of how much this lunatic bill will actu
212 WarRI1 : Yes, and it is deafening. Goldman Saks said, it is better for the insurance companies if nothing is done, and aren't they doing God's Work?
213 Ken777 : The best estimates of the level of fraud is used first to fund going after the crooks and Obama is looking serious on that side. Next it is used in e
214 DXing : Since they cannot come up with an actual estimate based on any realistic projections then using them in a budget is simply wrong. It's not the fine t
215 Cws818 : Yes, we were MUCH better off in 1929. You cannot possibly be serious.
216 Cws818 : There is a perfectly simple explanation for your confusion: of the enormous amount of good that was done during those six years, the majority origina
217 Dreadnought : Did the Constitution suddenly change in 1994 and hand over the responsibilities for taxing and spending to the White House, and then suddenly changed
218 Ken777 : When I was involved in budgeting in a large retail environment there were many "estimates" or "guesses" in our budget. But the company moved forward
219 DXing : And that's great, for a private company. If it fails to meet its budget it goes bankrupt and either emerges from protection a smaller company or is l
220 Ken777 : So why do we have various law enforcement agencies. Why does the IRS do audits? Why does the government audit it's contractors? Because they project
221 EA772LR : That's horse shit Ken and you know it. I never blamed Obama for the collapse in our economy last year. But that wasn't all Bush's fault either. It wa
222 Ken777 : Some of the large bailouts in the financial sector were, I believe, critically important. The failure since then has been the lack of that bailout he
223 DXing : To uphold the law but their budgets are not determined by how many assets they sieze or how many tickets they write. To catch tax cheats but the IRS'
224 Ken777 : Unless, of course, the funds that are brought in help fund the law enforcement efforts. The enforcement section would be established and, to some deg
225 EA772LR : I'm afraid you're probably right Ken. That really burns me too.
226 Post contains links DXing : The funds can be brought in, but they are not part of any budget. They couldn't be since there is no legitimate way to account for them in advance. Y
227 Seb146 : I would also guess that the insurance companies, at the same time they are complaining about the 'unfair' competition from government, will raise the
228 Post contains links WarRI1 : http://www.projo.com/news/content/ME...S_11-17-09_9QGFSKA_v6.398911e.html I think this is an example of what the insurance companies are doing. Read t
229 Continental : So essentially the whole prison thing because you have no insurance wasn't necessarily true and was blown out of proportion?
230 Ken777 : Traffic fines go into our General Fund and it can be projected in a budget based on previous history over the years. Actually, some government activi
231 Seb146 : Kinda reminds me of death panels....
232 Post contains links Dreadnought : As with the death panels, yes it was overblown, but based on truth. Pelosi confirmed that if you refuse to join up, you will eventually find yourself
233 DXing : Not at all. Since you will have to declare your insurance on your tax return, if you lie about it then you have filed a false return and you're eligi
234 Continental : But can't you go to jail if you lie about other things on your tax return? I thought that you just incur an additional tax if you have no insurance.
235 Ken777 : Governments budgets include assumptions of revenues at a minimum. Sales taxes at the local level are a prime example. When sales tax revenues are dow
236 Post contains links Dreadnought : Is it possible that Obama is waking up? http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091118/ap_on_re_as/as_obama_economy
237 Ken777 : I think Obama (and especially his economic advisors) have been awake on this issue for a while. A double-dip recession is a term for a known problem,
238 DXing : Sure, if you lie about anything on your tax return you could face jail time. Your question was to show where it said you could go to jail which is wh
239 Ken777 : I really don't care if it is called "revenue" or "expense reduction" or "other adjustments". What I want is for the government to enhance programs to
240 Post contains links EA772LR : Last night I had a long talk with a doctor who owns his own practice. He's a general physician basically. He said he now refuses to take Medicare beca
241 Post contains links Ken777 : Some doctors will never take Medicare/Medicaid patients, some will take a certain percentage and other will be fine with patients who walk in the doo
242 Arrow : This is where widespread use of expensive diagnostic tools will challenge ALL health care systems whether they are public or private. We have to deci
243 Ken777 : When you look at fixed -v- variable costs the concept of fully utilizing a test might be a bit different than you think. Cut CT or MRI scans 60% and
244 Seb146 : But, that is one doctor. What about others that accept Medicare? What about all those other doctors that would rather accept Medicare patients? What
245 EA772LR : Best wishes to 17 more years of post treatment Ken I am always happy to hear stories of cancer patients who have survived. Glad to hear your wife mad
246 Cws818 : Typical right wing noise.
247 Continental : Eh, we must have somehow been looking at a different bill, because page 177 discussed something way different. I still, however, feel that the whole
248 DXing : If this bill passes, lie on your tax return about having health benefits and see what happens. Filing a false return can land you in jail.
249 Continental : Understandable, but if you file a false return this year you may end up in jail. Many misleading comments made it seem that if you didn't have insura
250 DXing : Under the current plan under consideration you will have to declare what your health insurance is on your tax return. It will have to meet up with wh
251 WarRI1 : The odds of that are remote, to say the least, The naysayers keep whipping up the right wing hysteria. We will live with what is passed, if anything
252 DXing : Well evidently you don't give too much of anything about your fellow Americans and especially those that will follow because with this legislation th
253 Post contains links PPVRA : I wonder if the final bill will pay doctors the same regardless of where they are located. I read a comment here a little while ago that physicians l
254 WarRI1 : We have heard that for 60 years, healthcare costs continue to skyrocket, too many hands in the pot. If we are not in the era of managed, rationed car
255 Continental : If you don't have insurance and you don't say so, you don't go directly to jail. I thought you'd pay an additional tax. If you don't pay that, THEN j
256 DXing : The GOP could have been Pluto for all it matters. Where they have been does not make these bills any better. They are simply bad bills by design and
257 WarRI1 : Yes, and what is so wrong with that? Both are crimes now, never mind the healthcare version of lying and fraud. Crime now, crime after. Still lying a
258 Baroque : No no no, WarRI1, this is a naughtiness to do with a health system so it has a special category all of its own, close to hell don't you know!
259 DXing : That was never the question. The question was where did it say in the health care bill that you would go to jail if you didn't have health insurance.
260 Ken777 : If the Republican's were to put out a "health Reform" plan it would be limited to "Help Health Insurance Companies" reform. That means tort "reform",
261 DXing : Yeah, nobody gets caught driving without insurance anymore.
262 WarRI1 : I must admit, that I am puzzled. Here is something with a human face (Healthcare) for people who do not have it, and it is being Demonized like nothi
263 DXing : It is not health care per se but rather these bills which do not do much to increase health care but rather do a lot to increase government control o
264 WarRI1 : But the problem is, nothing has or will be done without the government ramming it down the throats of Special Interests. Blame it on congress, I do.
265 DXing : "We the People" are going to get it rammed down our throats. So are the States. Just one of the dirty little secrets in both the Senate and the House
266 Ken777 : And, like the drivers who don't have insurance, people paying for health insurance today get screwed anytime a patient without insurance needs care.
267 WarRI1 : [quote=DXing,reply=265]We the People" are going to get it rammed down our throats. So are the States. Just one of the dirty little secrets in both the
268 DXing : Of course everyone will buy health insurance just like they do auto insurance now right? Those young people who can afford it but decide not to buy i
269 Baroque : Hard to believe that exchange. Presumably one of the intents of the Health Bill as well as one of its effects will be better preventive medicine. One
270 WarRI1 : I agree, we are getting fatter, poorer, and the wealthy and our congress are getting fat in the wallet. Of course that is the way they like it. Seems
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