Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 6457 posts, RR: 36 Posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2506 times:
Here is something you might find interesting. This is his 50-page presentation.
MarSciGuy From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 543 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2494 times:
Well I'm no religious scholar by any means, but at least the first section seemed rather innocuous - once it got to talking about different Koranic and other verses I quickly got lost in the weeds so to speak...
"There weren't a ton of gnats there where a ton of gnats and their families as well!"
Slider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6219 posts, RR: 42 Reply 2, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2490 times:
Yeah, several, but I'll keep it short. He nails the very argument the PC crowd in this country doesn't want to touch but comes to the wrong conclusion.
On slide 49:
Quote: God expects full loyalty. Promises heaven and threatens with hell.
Muslims may be seen as moderate (compromising) but God is not.
“I love the Koran and being a Muslim, but I don’t want to live under Islamic rule.”
Fighting to establish an Islamic state to please God, even by force, is condoned by the Islam.
Muslim soldiers should not serve in any capacity that renders them at risk to hurting/killing believers unjustly.
Bold emphasis is mine.
His recommendation on the following slide after that, however, is flawed. The DoD should NOT allow Muslim conscientious objectors. By the very presentation this man made, Islam is incompatible with being a soldier in the United States military. If they cannot pull the trigger in combat—which ultimately in the military’s purpose—then they don’t belong. Anyone who cannot do that, regardless of race, creed, religion, etc. But in this context, in this instance, Islam is wholly incompatible with this doctrine.
And until we address that politically incorrect truth, we’ll keep learning the hard way. With MORE incidents of Islam soldiers shooting others (this is not the first, as has been discussed and cited), until finally our nation is consumed with diversity that we’re paralyzed and unable to execute the purpose of the military.
Mt99 From United States of America, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 5640 posts, RR: 8 Reply 3, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2482 times:
Quoting Slider (Reply 2): until finally our nation is consumed with diversity that we’re paralyzed and unable to execute the purpose of the military.
"A big ugly melting pot boiling over a what used to be nice clean white stove"
- Darlene McBride "Take back America Tour"
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 6457 posts, RR: 36 Reply 4, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2473 times:
Quoting Slider (Reply 2): His recommendation on the following slide after that, however, is flawed. The DoD should NOT allow Muslim conscientious objectors. By the very presentation this man made, Islam is incompatible with being a soldier in the United States military. If they cannot pull the trigger in combat—which ultimately in the military’s purpose—then they don’t belong. Anyone who cannot do that, regardless of race, creed, religion, etc. But in this context, in this instance, Islam is wholly incompatible with this doctrine.
I tend to agree. Some of the bullet points are clearly meant to be prompts for something that was said in the presentation, and not written down, and we can only guess at what he said.
But it comes down to this. In WWII, German-Americans fought against their German cousins, as did Japanese-Americans. Given America's background, this has been the case for centuries.
Correct me if I am wrong, (I never served in the US military), but I believe that there is an oath you must take when you enlist, and maybe another one when you become an officer.
edit: I'm not wrong - here is the oath for enlisted personel, and below that the oath for officers which is a little more strongly worded.
Quote: The wordings of the current oath of enlistment and oath for commissioned officers are as follows:
"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).
"I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God." (DA Form 71, 1 August 1959, for officers.)
Major Hasan took this oath. He did not have to. If he felt that he could not fight Muslims, he should have looked at the oath and said, "sorry, but I can't do that."
When was the last time someone has been convicted for Treason in the US? I'd say this is a pretty clear-cut case.
I am Descartes of Borg. I assimilate, therefore I am
Comorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4271 posts, RR: 19 Reply 5, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2439 times:
Its a most interesting deck (trendy word for presentations), and very compelling reading.
It's easy to see the conflict that Islam generates, if you want to follow it literally from its origins. It's also a scary read, and gives a peek into the mind of a Islamist. I shudder to think that this is taught in Madrassas to impressionable kids around the world. But I think modern Muslims reject the bad parts, and try to keep keep what is good and spiritual about it. Islam never went through an Enlightenment (I think?) while Christianity was able to move beyond the days of the early zealots.
If you get literal about this, and imagine a deck about fundamentalist Christianity, think of the conflict a U.S. soldier would have if he had to abide literally by the Old Testament, and his vision of the future was guided by Revelations.
What we have here is a very troubled non-religious American who turned to religion to find succor in battling his personal demons. Unfortunately, given whatever counseling he got from a fundamentalist Imam, it just made matters worse. A really nice man turns to his faith and ends up massacring his comrades. This is how misguided, disaffected kids get brainwashed to become suicide bombers.
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11025 posts, RR: 53 Reply 6, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2388 times:
Quoting Mt99 (Reply 3): "A big ugly melting pot boiling over a what used to be nice clean white stove"
- Darlene McBride "Take back America Tour"
I guess you have a problem seperating comidy for reality. Most Americans are not the rasists you implied with the youtube tape. Nor are most Europeans.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4): Quote:
The wordings of the current oath of enlistment and oath for commissioned officers are as follows:
"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).
"I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God." (DA Form 71, 1 August 1959, for officers.)
Correct, and the God mentioned is not any old God, it is the Christian God and historical significancy of Christiananty in the US, So help me God.
When are we going to stand up and call this criminal act of terrorism what it truely is, a hate crime!!!
May this terrorist that is filled with so much hate of the American Military (even though they put him through school) rot in HELL.
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 14050 posts, RR: 55 Reply 7, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2339 times:
Quoting Slider (Reply 2): With MORE incidents of Islam soldiers shooting others (this is not the first, as has been discussed and cited), until finally our nation is consumed with diversity that we’re paralyzed and unable to execute the purpose of the military.
Is it possible that Islam itself is not the problem? Perhaps the problem is that a group of very violent people have taken over Islam and turned it into Radical Islam. I don't think Radical Islam necessarily makes people violent so much as violent people make up Radical Islam.
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
Correct, and the God mentioned is not any old God, it is the Christian God and historical significancy of Christiananty in the US, So help me God.
Please cite a source that specifically states that the "God" in that oath is the Christian god.
FlyDeltaJets87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2327 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Major Hasan took this oath. He did not have to. If he felt that he could not fight Muslims, he should have looked at the oath and said, "sorry, but I can't do that."
That's exactly why the clause "I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation" is in there. That oath is reaffirmed every time an officer is promoted to a new rank too.
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6): When are we going to stand up and call this criminal act of terrorism what it truely is, a hate crime!!!
It can't be a hate crime. It was committed by a minority, which automatically rules out "Hate Crime" in this country.
Qantas077 From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 5700 posts, RR: 52 Reply 9, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2328 times:
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6): May this terrorist that is filled with so much hate of the American Military (even though they put him through school) rot in HELL.
is that the same description you'd use for Jason Rodriguez, you know the guy that went on a shooting spree the day after in Florida...
a true friend is someone who sees the pain in your eyes, while everyone else believes the smile on your face.
JJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1487 posts, RR: 2 Reply 10, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2286 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4): But it comes down to this. In WWII, German-Americans fought against their German cousins, as did Japanese-Americans
In WWII German-Americans did fight in Germans. Japanese-Americans fought in Europe, not the Pacific (I guess there might be exceptions, but as a rule Japanese-Americans weren't trusted to serve in the Pacific).
That was while Japanese-Americans back home were herded into concentration camps, mind you.
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 8469 posts, RR: 40 Reply 11, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2270 times:
Thanks for the thread, Dreadnought, interesting insights.........
Funny, the Christian religion and the Muslim one are close cousins,' and in fact Christians have virtually the same 'Commandment' - 'Thou Shalt Not Kill.'
That was later 'interpreted' so that it meant "Thou Shalt Not Murder.' That re-interpretation was sort of essential, otherwise the biggest and bloodiest wars the world has seen yet - the two World Wars - could not have been fought, given that they were both almost entirely Christian v. Christian.
I've always felt hitherto that the Muslim religion had a similar 'convenient' re-interpretation - after all, Muslims DO kill each other, not just in wars but any day of the week, including Saturdays - particularly Sunni v. Shi-ite, and often by way of suicide bombings outside mosques at 'chucking-out time' etc.
But it appears, from the things you've put on, that Major Hasan interpreted that commandment as 'Thou shalt not kill fellow Muslims.' That seems to be utterly wrong, in that it more or less implies that it's OK to kill anyone who ISN'T a Muslim?
I was lucky in that I've never had to kill anyone. But i was trained to do it if I'd had to - and I must admit that it wouldn't have mattered to me what religion they professed; had they been 'the enemy' - and therefore doing everything they could to kill ME - I' reckon that I'd have killed them all right. You can never be sure, of course - but I don't think the task would have bothered me unduly if my own life (and those of my mates) had been at stake.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4): But it comes down to this. In WWII, German-Americans fought against their German cousins, as did Japanese-Americans. Given America's background, this has been the case for centuries.
Absolutely right.......
I suspect that the problem is that in the various Christian religions, 'dogma' is formalised and stated by the heads of the various churches - the Pope, the Archbishop of Canterbury, and the rest. So at least most Christians 'know where they stand' as far as interpreting the Commnadments is concerned. Whereas my impression is that Muslim 'dogma' tends to depend much more on what the individual mullahs preach in their sermons. Major Hasan may well just have come under the influence of a particular cleric who specialised in 'muddled thinking'?
One thing's perfectly certain, though. You can't be ANY sort of soldier (or at the very least, shouldn't remain one for even five minutes) if you reckon that you have the right (even the 'duty') to pick and choose as to who you shoot at on the basis of what religion they belong to..........
[Edited 2009-11-12 03:15:49]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
Scorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 4934 posts, RR: 51 Reply 12, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2228 times:
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6): Correct, and the God mentioned is not any old God, it is the Christian God and historical significancy of Christiananty in the US, So help me God.
No it isn't. And even if it was, the Christian and Islamic God are one and the same, so it wouldn't make a difference in this case.
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6): Most Americans are not the rasists you implied with the youtube tape. Nor are most Europeans.
He wasn't implying any such thing. Just that Slider's remark quoted was eerily similar to that from the video. And it is. Only difference being that Slider actually means it, which is the scary part.
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 14050 posts, RR: 55 Reply 13, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2177 times:
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 11):
But it appears, from the things you've put on, that Major Hasan interpreted that commandment as 'Thou shalt not kill fellow Muslims.' That seems to be utterly wrong, in that it more or less implies that it's OK to kill anyone who ISN'T a Muslim?
Here's the problem:
You have violent, mentally ill people like Major Hassan, Osama bin Laden, Fred Phelps, etc. They all turn to extremist religion as their shelter. In extremist religion, there is a loud, clear philosophy and a justification that these urges to kill are perfectly OK. In fact, they are God's will! You can kill all the gays/non-Muslims/infidels/non-Christians that you want and it's perfectly OK!
The problem is that religion is somehow this exalted, protected class. People can engage in some of the most outlandish behaviors and yet you can't discriminate on the basis of religion.
Religion doesn't cause violent, sick people to exist, but extremist religion does shelter them and religion shelters extremist religion.
Until people come to realize that religion is a choice and that anyone who seems to have an obsession with a religion (and not just Islam) is possibly very dangerous, it will be very difficult to catch these people.
Will the leaders of the Southern Baptist Convention stand up and declare that Rev. Fred Phelps is excommunicated from the Baptist faith and no longer has the right to call himself a Baptist? Will the Imams and Mullahs in Mecca stand up and declare that all the extremist Muslim clerics no longer have the right to call themselves Muslims? Will they formally excommunicate Osama bin Laden and strip him of his Muslim name?
Religious extremism is the problem, not Islam. Whatever Maj. Hassan thought he was, he wasn't a Muslim.
Just heard on the radio that Major Hasan has been charged with 13 counts of premeditated murder, and will be tried under military law.
That's probably the only 'good' thing about this horrible business - that the guy is still alive. Which gives us some reason to hope that his 'religious advisers,' whoever they are, may actually find themselves being cross-examined in court.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
Stratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1522 posts, RR: 4 Reply 15, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2144 times:
Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 8): It can't be a hate crime. It was committed by a minority, which automatically rules out "Hate Crime" in this country.
TheCol From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 1852 posts, RR: 5 Reply 16, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2133 times:
Quoting Comorin (Reply 5): What we have here is a very troubled non-religious American who turned to religion to find succor in battling his personal demons. Unfortunately, given whatever counseling he got from a fundamentalist Imam, it just made matters worse. A really nice man turns to his faith and ends up massacring his comrades. This is how misguided, disaffected kids get brainwashed to become suicide bombers.
Most of them know the difference between right and wrong. Even some of the worst criminal offenders have admitted to feeling the excruciating guilt over what they did.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13): You have violent, mentally ill people like Major Hassan, Osama bin Laden, Fred Phelps, etc.
That's a little presumptuous. Do you know something that the rest of the world doesn't?
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 14050 posts, RR: 55 Reply 17, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks ago) and read 2114 times:
Quoting TheCol (Reply 16):
That's a little presumptuous. Do you know something that the rest of the world doesn't?
What, that a megalomaniac who derives sick pleasure from the suffering of others is mentally ill? These men are *very* mentally ill. No mentally healthy human being does what they do.
Slider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6219 posts, RR: 42 Reply 18, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2067 times:
Quoting Comorin (Reply 5): If you get literal about this, and imagine a deck about fundamentalist Christianity, think of the conflict a U.S. soldier would have if he had to abide literally by the Old Testament, and his vision of the future was guided by Revelations.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7): Is it possible that Islam itself is not the problem? Perhaps the problem is that a group of very violent people have taken over Islam and turned it into Radical Islam. I don't think Radical Islam necessarily makes people violent so much as violent people make up Radical Islam.
Therein lies the problem. I’ve quoted both of these as they’re interrelated. Christianity had its purging reformations. Painful too. The Catholic Church has evolved more slowly, but it can’t be compared to Islam. And I’m weary of the moral relativism of twisting out of context the correlations between Christianity and Islam.
No one in Christendom is sacrificing their sons, there’s no fire and brimstone crapola and when some rare nutjob goes off, he/she is immediately, strongly, and universally (unequivocally) denounced. When it happens in Islam, there are crickets chirping.
If CAIR was a true advocacy group, which they’re not—they are a terrorist front organization as has been documented—they’d be tripping all over themselves to help bridge the “gap of understanding” and all that rot.
Regardless of the causes, composition or motives, radical Islam is here. It exists. It is going UNCHECKED. It needs to be stopped.
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 14050 posts, RR: 55 Reply 19, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2045 times:
Quoting Slider (Reply 18): No one in Christendom is sacrificing their sons, there’s no fire and brimstone crapola and when some rare nutjob goes off, he/she is immediately, strongly, and universally (unequivocally) denounced.
Really? Jerry Falwell wasn't fire and brimstone crapola? He might not have been advocating murder and violence, but he was within spitting distance.
The thing is that right now, the Christians have the big weapons and armies. The nations that are primarily Christian (U.S., Europe) are the most technologically advanced and powerful. If our military blows up an Afghani wedding party, it's not terrorism, it's a tactical error. The Muslim nations don't have those big guns at their disposal, so if they are to take military action, it must be terrorism or guerilla warfare. I'm not excusing it, but the fact is that both sides have caused a lot of death and destruction. And we've killed a lot more Muslims, including innocent civilians, then they have killed innocent Christian civilians. That is also a rather inconvenient fact.
Christianity has proven itself to be capable of horrible atrocities in the 2000 years since its inception. The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials... and Christian ministers even defended slavery and limited civil rights for Blacks in the south...and it was often groups of churchgoers who committed the worst lynchings.
Yes, at present, it seems as if Islam is having some difficulty with self-policing. But don't think for a moment that Christianity isn't capable of the same behaviors when the tables are turned.
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 14050 posts, RR: 55 Reply 21, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2010 times:
Quoting TheCol (Reply 20):
So you are saying all the convicted serial killers that ever existed on the face of this planet are/were mentally ill?
Actually, by definition, yes. Serial killers have a mental illness. That does not excuse their crimes. They did make a conscious decision to act on their urges.
If you're interested in the subject, go to the library and check out a book on criminal and/or forensic psychology. It's fascinating stuff.
NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 8469 posts, RR: 40 Reply 22, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1983 times:
The issue of insanity as a defence to murder has quite a long history.
It first became 'codified' in Britain in 1843, when a jury (with guidance from the judge) concluded that a killer named McNaghten was unable, at the time of the offence, to distinguish right from wrong - and therefore acquitted him.
For many years the 'McNaghten Rule' was the 'standard' test of whether an offender was 'not guilty by reason of insanity.' But it was later amplified, in most jurisdictions, on medical evidence, to include what is commonly called 'irresistible impulse' - the fact that insane people may be in the position, by reason of mental illness, of being unable to stop themselves doing something even though they may know that it is wrong.
'Irresistible impulse' was an available defence in most US states until the doctrine was instrumental in getting John Hinckley acquitted of the attempted murder of President Ronald Reagan. Reagan was so incensed that he attempted to change the law so as virtually to 'abolish' any question of insanity being a defence to murder. He didn't succeed, but he DID manage to 'cloud the waters' - and more or less established a situation, in most states, where the 'burden of proof' now lies with the defence; the defence now has to prove that the offender was insane, rather than the prosecution having to prove that the accused was sane......
It's anyone's guess at this stage how much 'leverage' an insanity defence will have in the the Hasan case (incidentally, our TV news reported tonight that Hasan has been told that he will never walk again, and may never recover any feeling in his lower body, or even free use of his arms. I don't suppose any of us feels the slightest sympathy for him, on present evidence - I certainly don't).
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 21): If you're interested in the subject, go to the library and check out a book on criminal and/or forensic psychology.
Good suggestion, Doc. I have a further one, though - try to find a copy of a novel called "Anatomy Of A Murder," or alternatively a video of the Otto Preminger film of the same name (which had a stellar cast including James Stewart, Lee Remick, Ben Gazzara, Eve Arden, George C. Scott, and even Duke Ellington ).
It's the story of a lawyer in up-state Michigan who gets an Army lieutenant acquitted of murder after he killed a hotel owner who'd seduced (or raped?) the soldier's wife, on the basis of the 'irresistible impulse' defence. The author on the cover will be named as 'Robert Traver,' but in fact it was written by John D. Voelker, a Michigan Supreme Court Justice.
Apart from anything else, I'd recommend it simply because it is certainly among the two or three best novels I've ever read in my life. In particular, without ever being boring, it takes you through literally hours of cross-examination - with many 'marvellous moments,' including one witness who gives a fabulous 'word-picture' of 'the Lieutenant' shooting 'Barney':-
"He didn't seem excited. He came in like a mailman delivering the mail. He walked up to the bar, and delivered his mail. He shot Barney, then leaned over the bar to shoot again, downwards. Then he just turned round and walked back to the door and went out, still not hurrying, just like a mailman........"
Whatever else, it'll give anyone a close-up view of how any 'insanity defence' has to be proved - or disproved. And - in a odd way - it will restore most people's faith in 'due process' as being the ONLY way in which civilised nations can 'handle,' and maybe eventually 'recover from,' horrible episodes like this.
PS found a video clip. Hope it convinces some people to read it or view it. May not 'further the discussion,' but at least they'll thoroughly enjoy the experience. As I said, IMO one of the all-time best........
Marco From United Arab Emirates, joined Jul 2000, 4158 posts, RR: 20 Reply 23, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1898 times:
And we've killed a lot more Muslims, including innocent civilians, then they have killed innocent Christian civilians. That is also a rather inconvenient fact.
A totally ignorant statement that is typical of a Westerner who has no clue about the middle east at all. As an Iraqi Christian, we middle eastern Christians have gone through systematic persectution, both institutionalized and none-institutionalized.More significantly, massacres including the Assyrian-Armenian genocide of the 20th century where 1.5m Armenians and 750,000 Assyrians were wiped out by the Turks and Kurds. There are many other genocides/massive displacements which one can get into, this is just one example.
Furthermore minorities in the Islamic world are being pushed to extinction, with Nubians in Sudan, the Berbers in North Africa, the Assyrians, Armenians, Copts, Maronites, Native Jews (Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Egypt), Syriacs, Mandeans in the Middle East, etc all under extinction through cultural genocide, not just forced conversions or "physical" genocides.
Doclightning I checked your profile and found out that you are Jewish, perhaps it would be interesting for you to note that the main issue standing between the Middle Eastern nations (not just Muslims, but also Christians) and the "Christian" west is the issue of the "Jewish" state of Israel. Most of the Western nations actually support the existence of Israel and have even fought for the right of Jews to have land in the Middle East. I think you should take that into account.
On the other hand, perhaps you can also mention what Jews and Israeli's have done to the Palestinians, and how they have effectively displaced 6 million people from their lands, stolen their farms, homes, humiliated them, built walls around their communities, and in fact started the trend of suicide bombings when it was still the mandate of Palestine.
Having said that, I think it is vital for everyone of us to fix the dirt in our own backyard before have a go at someone else's religion.
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11025 posts, RR: 53 Reply 24, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1897 times:
Correct, and the God mentioned is not any old God, it is the Christian God and historical significancy of Christiananty in the US, So help me God.
Please cite a source that specifically states that the "God" in that oath is the Christian god.
The history of the US. We were founded on Christian values, not Islamic values. Like it or not, God is mentioned in many historic US documents. Our money still says "In Got We Trust", it does not say "In Alliah We Trust".
Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 8): Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
When are we going to stand up and call this criminal act of terrorism what it truely is, a hate crime!!!
It can't be a hate crime. It was committed by a minority, which automatically rules out "Hate Crime" in this country.
Unfortunately you are correct. The PC police are the ones who say minotities cannot hate.
Quoting Qantas077 (Reply 9): Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
May this terrorist that is filled with so much hate of the American Military (even though they put him through school) rot in HELL.
is that the same description you'd use for Jason Rodriguez, you know the guy that went on a shooting spree the day after in Florida...
From what I know of Rodriguez, he killed one person, and wounded several others. He was upset over being laid off by that firm some 2 years ago. That caused his current money problems. I see this as vastly different than walking in and shooting people over a religious difference and the people he shot getting ready to deploy to an Islamic country.
Quoting Scorpio (Reply 12): Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
Correct, and the God mentioned is not any old God, it is the Christian God and historical significancy of Christiananty in the US, So help me God.
No it isn't. And even if it was, the Christian and Islamic God are one and the same, so it wouldn't make a difference in this case.
No, they are not the same God. Christianity has its roots in the Jewish Faith. The old testement is all about God, the same God Jews worship. The new testement is about God, and his son, Jesus. The Jews do not reconise the new testement, but do believe in the old one. The new testement is based on events some 2000 years ago, the old testement goes back several thousand years before that. Alliah came about around 620 AD, some 600 years after Jesus. Aliah is not the God in the Bible, but the Quran has similar passages to the Bible, but not identical.
Quoting TheCol (Reply 16): Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
You have violent, mentally ill people like Major Hassan, Osama bin Laden, Fred Phelps, etc.
That's a little presumptuous. Do you know something that the rest of the world doesn't?
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17): What, that a megalomaniac who derives sick pleasure from the suffering of others is mentally ill? These men are *very* mentally ill. No mentally healthy human being does what they do.
Hasan is a psychiatrist, he should know what mental illness is, and how to diagnose it. I do not see Hasan as being mentally ill. He calculated his actions and planned them very carefully, apparently. You as a MD should know this better than most of us, but even you are not an expert on mental illness.
Hasan was willing to discuss with his superiors private sessions he had with Soldiers, wanting his superiors to open "war crimes" investigations into some of his cases. This is a gross violation of the doctor/patient relationship. It is one thing for a doctor to cooperate with a criminal investigation, it is a different thing for the doctor to urge one be started.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19): Yes, at present, it seems as if Islam is having some difficulty with self-policing. But don't think for a moment that Christianity isn't capable of the same behaviors when the tables are turned.
Difficulty policing themselves? Where has Islaim policed the actions of their followers doing things like this?
The Christians do police themselves, and have been doing a good job at it for hundreds of years. Yes, Christianity did have problems with the followers, and in some cases leaders in the past. But that is just it, it is in the past. Islaim continues to have "difficulties" today.
25 RedFlyer: Your words reclassify known terrorists into something less, such as a criminal or mentally ill person. None of them are mentally ill and, in fact, ex
26 Marco: I'm not talking Crusades, but N. Ireland, Lebanon, Rwanda, Church support of fascist/totalitarian regimes worldwide, etc. Lebanon???????? Please do en
27 SOBHI51: You do not even know what you are talking about Allah is God in Arabic. The prophet who brought Islam is Mohammed. Allah God are the same he was ther
28 Scorpio: Um, yes they are. Fact. Yes he is. Same one. Do some reading please. Your country also has this little thing called 'freedom of religion', something
29 KC135TopBoom: I do read, and I do read the Bible. Maybe you in Europe have a different God now, it use to be the same one we have. I suggest you do some reading an
30 NAV20: KC135TopBoom, I'm afraid that this is mainly a matter of language. In English the word is 'God,' in French it's 'Dieu,' in German it's 'Gott.' In Ara
31 JJJ: A 25-year civil war built along religious lines that included regrettable episodes like the Sabra and Shatila massacres (executed by Maronite militia
32 SOBHI51: So now you have different Gods for Christians? Alliah or God was not born. God created this universe, he is not a person and there is only one. We al
33 Marco: A 25-year civil war built along religious lines that included regrettable episodes like the Sabra and Shatila massacres (executed by Maronite militias
34 JJJ: That's exactly my point: religion and politics together is a recipe for disaster. Be it Christian, Muslim or whatever else. Having religion in the mi
35 SOBHI51: With all respect to Christian religion, i do not see how the example you gave is a good one, killing Muslims in cold blood is fine and sparing Christ
36 SOBHI51: And of course we know how Slider feels about Islam.
37 JJJ: That was a rather clumsy attempt at irony. My bad.
38 Slider: But therein lies one of the biggest fundamental problems of Islam—it is not merely a religion, but a way of life and encompasses religion, lifestyl
39 Scorpio: If you knew the first thing about religions and their histories, you'd realise that Judaism, Christianity and Islam all share the same 'God'. That's
40 SOBHI51: If we are worshiping the same god then Islam is a religion. Christianity and Jewish religions also teach you lifestyle and other things. The way i wa
41 Lh526: Guys, Straight by the book, both the Bible and the Quran have very violent passages and depending on interpretation can lead to active violent by the
42 Marco: That's exactly my point: religion and politics together is a recipe for disaster. Be it Christian, Muslim or whatever else. Actually, initially your p
43 SOBHI51: Quoting Lh526 (Reply 42): However, when you are an enlightened (Aufklärung), with a vast broad mind, you should be savvy enough not to strictly follo
44 Slider: yes, except the violent passages in the Quran and other Islamic texts were done AFTER the peaceful comments. After Muhammed went to Medina, and the e
45 SOBHI51: You must be reading different history books. Prophet Mohammed Did have to leave Makkah with his followers after they suffered from Koreish. They went
46 David L: You're clearly confusing Allah/God with Muhammed (the Islamic equivalent of Jesus, if you will). As an atheist, I don't believe God/Allah was ever "b
47 Slider: Well, as I understand it and other Islamic scholars have deciphered, and this is compliments of Islam 101: Given the historical and factual accounts
48 Dreadnought: Most religions don't have a habit of going on murderous rampages at the slightest insult , but one religion does. That's why.
49 Yellowstone: Whether or not you believe in abrogation, it's important to contextualize the post-622 remarks. Prior to that time, the Muslims were a small group th
50 Slider: I disagree. In context, they were ridiculed in Mecca, but were growing in numbers. After 622 AD, they had gained the critical mass to fight back and
51 SOBHI51: The call to Jihad was to protect Islam from it enemies. If you show some respect i would love to have a discussion with you.
52 NAV20: Slider, virtually all religions have a form of 'abrogation.' In the Catholic Church it is based on belief in the infallibility of the Pope, in the Ang
53 StealthZ: This could perhaps be more correctly writen as.. Most religions no longer have a habit of going on murderous rampages at the slightest insult. or eve
54 JJJ: Phalanges did the actual killing. There's no excuse for that. I did not say that. I merely pointed a list of places where Christians had relatively r
55 AlexEU: Very interesting. I have always had interest in Assyiran Christians. Even Assyrians are now divided between Assyrian Church of the East, Catholics, S
56 Marco: I did not say that. I merely pointed a list of places where Christians had relatively recently massacred 'others', answering to a previous comment fro
57 JJJ: Are you now saying it did not happen? And Christians by Israel and (later) Syria. Not only Muslims can court foreign intervention. Again: all parties
58 Marco: Are you now saying it did not happen? It seems that you have chosen to misread my posts on purpose, and so that's just a waste of everyone's time. I t
59 SOBHI51: Can not understand this statement. You say there is one God but we do not worship the same God We do worship the same God but we use a different comm
60 JJJ: I'm afraid it's you who have misread my intervention in this thread. I was replying to someone who said Christian groups had not committed a massacre
61 Marco: I am glad you recitifed your statement regarding Christian involvement in the civil war, it was a civil war involving everyone. Your first statement w
62 AlexEU: Well, if Christians believe that Jesus is God, while Muslims believe that Jesus is not God, then we can easily say that we are not workshipping 1 God
63 JJJ: I haven't rectified any statement. I just explained it more clearly, as it seems your knee-jerk reaction was to take a satement saying 'Lebanese Chri
64 Slider: LOL! Perhaps you can provide a reference for that assertion? This is the sort of thing that makes critics have a feeding frenzy—a blatant historica
65 Afterburner: We all live in the same planet in the same universe. Jews, Christians, and Muslims are monotheists. They believe that the universe is created by a (o
66 SOBHI51: I thought he was the son of God as per my knowledge. Correct me if i am wrong. Now to Slider Quoting from the article: "Claiming "Islam" means "peace
67 Afterburner: So you think you know more about Islam and its history than a Muslim that lives in the holy land of Islam?
68 SOBHI51: It is not a matter of knowledge as such my friend, it is where he gets his information from. I am sure that there are thousands of people who lives o
69 SOBHI51: If you bother to look the meaning of the word Jihad you will find that it does not refer to wars only. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad
70 Slider: OK, now to take you up on your offer about having a decent discussion of the issue, I’ll do that. But do you not then see the folly of refuting Ima
71 Radiopolitic: And this is not directed at SOBHI51 at all, but as a born-Muslim(now deist) myself from the Middle East, you have no idea how many Muslims don't know
72 SOBHI51: This is by far the biggest lies i have never read in my life. Wonder if any Jewish studies did confirm parts of those ridiculous tales. We ( moderate
73 SOBHI51: Thank you, i never pretended that i have great knowledge about Islam, any more from what i got in school. BTW i attended Catholic schools in both Syr
74 Slider: Well, then correct them! Let’s see the facts. Refute and identify, document and account for the errors then. Onus is on you. Again, it IS being hij
75 Dreadnought: I will believe that when efforts to build a church in Saudi Arabia or other predominantly Islamic country is not met with arrests and/or violence.
76 Slider: Exactly—and the examples are so copious, all one has to do is Google for it. Quran 4:89…They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbe
77 SOBHI51: To tell you the truth this is way over my head, will take your postings and show them to a more knowledgeable person than me. If you have anymore plea
78 SKYSERVICE_330: So where do we go from here? Does the military round up all Muslim members and send them to prison because they have the potential for violence based
79 Acheron: We all worship the same God. What changes is whatever idiotic book(and agenda pushed by the leaders) each religion uses to try to understand the teac
80 Afterburner: I know that a lot of non-Muslims study Islam thoroughly and from the right sources. However the man you are having a debate with is not one of them.
81 Afterburner: There are more than 6000 verses in Quran. You can't just read one of them and make a conclusion. I believe that the word 'they' in the verse refers o
82 SOBHI51: [quote=Afterburner,reply=81]Read the underlined sentence. Allah even won't let Muslims fight those who don't fight Muslim. That's why i did not respon
83 StealthZ: Afterburner, You are correct that there are many verses and Slider has quoted one of them. The trouble is there are many within Islam who also selecti
84 Yellowstone: Let's include the verses immediately prior and following that verse, shall we? Two things become apparent. Verse 88 clarifies that verse 89 only conc
85 AlexEU: You just said it. If you believe that X1 is God and someone else believes that ZZ is God, then we are not workshipping the same God. Yep, Jesus has 2
86 NAV20: I should emphasise that what follows contains my own opinions only; many people will doubtless disagree, and they have a perfect right to do so. But I
87 Radiopolitic: This depends on whether one identifies as a monophysite(miaphysite) or a dyophysite.
88 AlexEU: This is one of the reasons why Oriental Christians (Syriacs, Armenians, Copts, Ethiopians) are not in communion with neither Eastern Orthodox nor Rom
89 Afterburner: Thank you for clarifying further. The same thing is also done by people who use only the 4:89 verse to attack Islam. Muslims in South-East Asia are m
90 JJJ: There are churches in Dubai, Bahrain, Turkey, Malaysia, Morocco, etc. without issues. There are ancient Christian communities in just about every Mus
91 Marco: There are ancient Christian communities in just about every Muslim country (except Saudi Arabia). Sometimes facign discrimination and prosecusions but
92 Lewis: I am not very proud to say that Greece is not very tolerant of Muslims. Apart from mosques for the large Muslim populations in Thrace, politicians ha
93 StealthZ: Just to clarify, by "politicians have yet to start the building", is the muslim community expecting the Govt to build them a mosque or do you mean th
94 Marco: Thanks for your input Lewis, the situation in Greece is still not close to the situation in the Middle East. Are there restrictions for Muslims to mee
95 Slider: Thank you. I appreciate your candor here and please know I’m not saying I’m an expert—I’ve been clear on that. I too would like clarification
96 NAV20: Oh dear, Slider, there you go again....... In my opinion you're not just advocating 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater,' you're proposing that
97 Scorpio: The dumbest thing one could possibly do. The only way you're ever going to win the fight against Muslim terrorism is if you get the moderate Muslims
98 NA: Not full on topic but still right here: Has it been reported here that the mass murderer from Ft. Hood will likely never walk again? I think its good
99 NAV20: Mentioned it, NA - see Post 14 above. Though, not being an unduly fanciful guy, I rather prefer to think it's more a (deserved) 'punishment' from the
100 KC135TopBoom: Isn't that what your own former PM Howard advocated? You can do that with a country like Indonesia. We asked for Afghanistan to hand over AQ and bin
101 Scorpio: Are you suggesting we should refuse people entry based on their religion? Because if you are, and it pretty clearly seems you are, you're an embarass
102 NA: Its bad for him. Actually its not bad for the rest of the world. He will suffer for the rest of his life. Thats worse than an easy death and being to
104 NAV20: Sorry, Reply 22. Latest reports say that he is 'paralysed from the chest down, incontinent, and in severe pain.' There's been a rather serious develo
105 StealthZ: This I will agree with KC on... you might be but certainly not loud enough or often enough. And it is not us that need to listen it is the extremists
106 NA: For one that has to do with what the western press, or the influential part of it, is publishing and what not. But thats only one side of the picture
107 Afterburner: Not allowing certain people to immigrate to a country is quite different from not allowing certain citizens to vote, to run for public offices, or to
108 AlexEU: I´ve heard rumours on TV, that there is a chance of Indonesia becoming an Islamic Republic. The first step has already been done in Aceh province. T
109 Lewis: Most problems arise with licensing as well as finding a proper location for the mosque. So far, none have been found as nobody wants to see a mosque
110 JJJ: Every religion is guilty of that. Hagia Sophia, converted to a mosque by the Ottomans, now a museum. Cordoba Mosque, now Cordoba Cathedral.
111 Afterburner: They were just rumours, right? Understandable rumours, since more than 80% of Indonesian are Muslims. However, like I've already said, most of us are
112 AlexEU: I don´t see problem with this. Over 95% population of Greece is Orthodox, and someone needs to give salarier to the priests. The priests do a lot of
113 NAV20: Interesting viewpoint, KC135. Indonesia just happens to be the largest Muslim country in the world. Moreover, only a few years ago, Australia was vir
114 Dreadnought: Let's look at another country - the Maldives. http://www.minivannews.com/news_detail.php?id=7755 President requests ruling on non-Muslim worship 21 N
115 MD11Engineer: Back in the early 1990s a problem became aparent for the German military: Neo-Nazis were trying to infiltrate the German military. This became widely
116 Dreadnought: I think this cartoon pretty much captures the problem: We have entered an era where Political Correctness has actually started to kill people. There
117 MD11Engineer: So would the same have happened if Hasan was e.g. posting violent communist propaganda, calling for the slaughter of all capitalist pigs, or if he wa
118 Dreadnought: I agree. People have yet to understand that Islam is not only a religion, but a political movement as well. Unlike Christianity (for example) where J
119 Aaron747: Gee that's strange, Pete Hoekstra, a member of the Select Committee on Intelligence, has been insisting all over TV in the last week that the US fund
120 MD11Engineer: I disagree there. If you look back to medieval Europe, the whole middle ages were a period, dujring which a constant struggle was fought about who is
121 Dreadnought: Yes, the Christian faith got all political as well. But none of that was ordained by scripture. The bible does not say anywhere that governments must
122 NAV20: Not the New Testament, which was the start of Christianity, Dreadnought - but the Old Testament certainly DOES command the faithful to attack and dri
123 Dreadnought: Which is why the New Testement came about, abrogating the old.
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