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Big F1 News: Mercedes GP  
User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10817 posts, RR: 9
Posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2338 times:

Just out on auto-motor-und-sport.de:

Mercedes pulls put of Mclaren and buys the majority (75,1%) of Brawn GP. The new Team will be named Mercedes GP, drivers Button and Rosberg, cars will be silver.
McLaren will get free engines for the next two years and until then the cars will retain the wellknown beautiful silver-red-black look.

With Rosberg in the team I see Button having a hard time next year. Rosberg is one of the drivers with champion ability.

32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2330 times:



Quoting NA (Thread starter):
Mercedes pulls put of Mclaren

This is overreaching. WSJ has an article which says that the state of the McLaren relationship is indeterminate as of yet.

Quote:
Aabar's move makes it the third, high-profile Arab investor in Formula One. Abu Dhabi investment firm Mubadala Development Co. owns a 5% stake in Ferrari, while Bahrain Mumtalakat Holding Co., which is wholly owned by the government of Bahrain, holds a 30% stake in McLaren Group, which is also 40%-owned by Daimler.

A spokesman for McLaren wasn't immediately available for comment on what Daimler's involvement with Brawn will mean for the team.

Aabar, Daimler to Buy Majority Stake in Brawn GP



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10817 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2318 times:



Quoting N328KF (Reply 1):
This is overreaching. WSJ has an article which says that the state of the McLaren relationship is indeterminate as of yet.

The site I quoted is next door to Mercedes and while "our" leading car magazine its widely known in Germany as a Mercedes-minded publication.

Mercedes takes 45,1 %, Mercedes Abu Dhabi stake owner Aabar 30 % of Brawn. Through this deal Mercedes will get most of the teams profits, something that didnt work with McLaren. Norbert Haug will become the boss of Ross Brawn in a way, although the genius from Britain will remain the team´s boss. With Rosberg for the first time since Mercedes came back in 1994 a German will be drivng a Silver Arrow.

McLaren-Mercedes will keep its name, but loose Mobil as sponsor (which leaves in the same direction as Mercedes), 30 million Mercedes development money a year, and 50% of the drivers payments which Stuttgart payed so far. Because Ron Dennis/McLaren had made serious mistakes in the last years (not so much in sport, but legally) Mercedes could walk out of McLaren earlier than the contract said (which would have meant at the end of 2011). For how much money Mercedes sold their stake in McLaren is unknown. Now McLaren builds a streetcar which somehow is a competitor to Mercedes new SLS, which is also not what the car manufacturer likes too much. McLaren will get engines for free for 2010 and 2011 and has the right to purchase until 2015.

All in all this strong commitment of the Star from Stuttgart is a good sign for F1 after all the gloom of this year´s largely horrible season.


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2276 times:

Not unexpected. It's been rumoured for some time that Mercedes-Benz wanted to increase its participation in Brawn and scale its part in McLaren down.

To me, the biggest advantage isn't that they finally get a German driver to drive a Silberpfeil, but mostly that they have now a genious working for them with Ross Brawn.


User currently offlineAerobalance From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 4683 posts, RR: 46
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2267 times:



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 3):
genious working for them with Ross Brawn

In what way do you consider Brawn a genius?



"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
User currently offlineT1210s From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 171 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2263 times:



Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 4):
In what way do you consider Brawn a genius?

8 x Drivers World Championships including five back to back
8 x Constructor World Championships including six back to back



The term Broadband comes from the two primary uses of high speed internet downloading porn (broads) and MP3s (bands)
User currently offlineAerobalance From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 4683 posts, RR: 46
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2261 times:



Quoting T1210s (Reply 5):
8 x Drivers World Championships including five back to back
8 x Constructor World Championships including six back to back

What role did he have in this? How was he a genius? Be specific please.



"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26815 posts, RR: 75
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2258 times:

Doesn't Daimler-Benz (Karl Benz should not be screwed out of his legacy) own a controlling interest in McLaren? If so, this deal seems odd. I wonder if papaya orange is in the cards for McLaren?


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineStealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5746 posts, RR: 44
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2255 times:
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Quoting NA (Reply 2):
All in all this strong commitment of the Star from Stuttgart is a good sign for F1 after all the gloom of this year´s largely horrible season.

Not sure I agree there, despite all the achievements of Daimler-Benz the record of auto manufacturers as F1 team owners is not a stellar one, certainly not in recent decades.
I fear (and for Brawn's sake I hope I am wrong) that Mercedes ownership might bring with it the sort of committee based decision making and inertia that were the most culpable failings of Honda & Toyota as team owners.

Having said all that and understanding how our German friends feel this is big news, it is really just part of the sports evolution, this thread should ideally be continued here......

F1 Off Season 2009/2010 (by Sudden Nov 1 2009 in Non Aviation)

Cheers



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2869 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2255 times:

Post edited as StealthZ was quicker than me  Smile

[Edited 2009-11-16 11:22:56]


"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlineT1210s From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 171 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2254 times:

His career in motorsport began in 1976 when he joined March Engineering in the town of Bicester as a milling machine operator. Soon afterwards he joined their Formula 3 racing team as a mechanic. Brawn was hired by Sir Frank Williams in 1978 as a machinist for the newly formed Williams team. He quickly moved up through the ranks, working in the R&D department and as an aerodynamicist in the team's wind tunnel.

After brief stints with the now-defunct Haas Lola and Arrows F1 teams Brawn's efforts caught the attention of Jaguar, which hired him in 1989. He began work in their sports car racing division, bringing as much F1 technological experience as he could, and succeeded in designing the Jaguar XJR-14 cars which won the 1991 World Sportscar Championship.


Later in 1991 Brawn returned to F1 as technical director of the Benetton team, helping it win back-to-back World Drivers' Championships in 1994 and 1995 with Michael Schumacher, and to take the World Constructors' Championship in 1995. Brawn was credited by much of the specialist press with being an important part of these championships, particularly in terms of devising race strategy.



Ross Brawn followed Schumacher to the Ferrari F1 team in late 1996, at the end of Schumacher's first year with the team. Again he was renowned for his race strategies as the team began to challenge for the championship from 1997, despite the superiority of the Williams cars that year and the McLarens from 1998 onwards. After these "rebuilding" years, he (as Ferrari technical director) helped Ferrari regain glory when the team won the Constructors' Championship in 1999, the first of six consecutive titles. The Brawn-guided Scuderia also powered Schumacher to five consecutive drivers' titles, from 2000 to 2004. Brawn's contributions to this unprecedented string of titles has led many to label him as a vital member of the Ferrari "dream team" along with Schumacher, team principal Jean Todt and chief designer Rory Byrne. In 2005 Ferrari never quite found form, and had to relinquish the title to Renault, and Schumacher passed the crown to Fernando Alonso. In 2006 Ferrari had a poor start to the season, but clearly had the fastest car by the end of that season.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Brawn



The term Broadband comes from the two primary uses of high speed internet downloading porn (broads) and MP3s (bands)
User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10817 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2227 times:



Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 6):
What role did he have in this? How was he a genius? Be specific please.



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 8):
Having said all that and understanding how our German friends feel this is big news, it is really just part of the sports evolution, this thread should ideally be continued here......

I´m more of a Ferrari fan than Mercedes I must say, but while its part of the Sports evolution its not just big news for German F1 fans. This is about a major deal involving this years champions, last years champions, Europe´s most prestigious mass car producer, F1s best tactician (Brawn) and some of the best drivers. It cant get bigger in F1 besides Ferrari doing something spectacular.


User currently offlineBill142 From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 8467 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2200 times:



Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 6):
What role did he have in this? How was he a genius? Be specific please.

He designed the cars that won those championships. He became the first team owner to win the championships in their first season.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
Doesn't Daimler-Benz (Karl Benz should not be screwed out of his legacy) own a controlling interest in McLaren? If so, this deal seems odd. I wonder if papaya orange is in the cards for McLaren?

The stake in McLaren is being sold back to the team. They will continue in the silver livery for 2010 at least. From 2011 it's possible to see the livery based around the Vodafone brand.


User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10817 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2171 times:



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 12):
From 2011 it's possible to see the livery based around the Vodafone brand.

Which would mean a red car, some sort of a British Ferrari.
Could be worse.


User currently offlineSudden From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 4130 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2169 times:



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 12):
Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 6):
What role did he have in this? How was he a genius? Be specific please.


He designed the cars that won those championships. He became the first team owner to win the championships in their first season.

Brawn is also known for his pit stop strategies. More then 1 race has been won because of the right decision taken from the pit wall by Brawn himself. His years at Ferrari comes to mind.
So yes, he sure is a genius who knows what he's doing.

Aim for the sky!
Sudden



When in doubt, flat out!
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2159 times:



Quoting NA (Reply 13):
Which would mean a red car, some sort of a British Ferrari.

They could do it like in the times Marlboro (Philip Morris) sponsored them, creamish-white and red.


User currently offlineRichM From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 803 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2149 times:

This is interesting news!

The official press release for this can also be read on Brawn GP's website.

Here's the link:
http://www.brawngp.com/readstory.asp?bgp=j%C1%AA%C0rZ%7Cg

The page also shows a picture of a new car. It looks very McClaren like imo, but it still looks great!

Cheers

Rich


User currently offlineAerobalance From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 4683 posts, RR: 46
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2113 times:



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 12):
He designed the cars that won those championships. He became the first team owner to win the championships in their first season.

Here I was thinking that Rory Byrne designed the Championship winning Benetton's and Ferrari's at the time Ross Brawn was with those teams...Jorg Zander and Loic Bigois were designers of the Brawn GP entrant for 2009 with Zander being the Chief Designer.

I believe Brawn is a good manager of resources...



"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
User currently offlineWaterpolodan From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1649 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2094 times:



Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 6):

What role did he have in this? How was he a genius? Be specific please.

To discount his role in the championships his teams have won is doing him a disservice. He may not have been the driver or the chief designer of all of the cars involved, but he certainly was a huge factor in that success. As others mentioned, he masterminded much of the Schumacher pit strategy that won many races that would otherwise have been lost at both Benetton and Ferrari, he was the driving force behind getting many people with diverse talents to gel into a cohesive group that produced the most dominant performance in F1 history in the 2000-2004 period with the Scuderia, and he had the foresight to make a very shrewd business decision in purchasing the basically defunct Honda program, turning it into a championship team, and selling most of his ownership to Mercedes. He must have gotten an absolutely astronomical return on his investment in the BGP affair, considering where they started and where they are now. On a personal level, he is generally regarded as one of the smartest men in pitlane. My dad ran into him in a lounge at Heathrow a couple years ago, they got to talking and it immediately became clear to my dad that Ross has an intuitive knack for engineering that extends well beyond cars. My dad works for a high end speaker manufacturer, and Ross discussed the intricacies of the engineering that goes into such devices as if he were involved in the business himself, and he had the same knowledge and enthusiasm about America's Cup yachts, which my dad is a big fan of. Pretty much a genius no matter how you slice it, not sure what you'd call him?

Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 17):


I believe Brawn is a good manager of resources...

That's an understatement.


User currently offlineBill142 From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 8467 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2079 times:



Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 17):
Here I was thinking that Rory Byrne designed the Championship winning Benetton's and Ferrari's at the time Ross Brawn was with those teams...Jorg Zander and Loic Bigois were designers of the Brawn GP entrant for 2009 with Zander being the Chief Designer.

Geez.. My posts are about as factually correct as an aviation journalists articles.


User currently offlineSudden From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 4130 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2075 times:



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 19):
Geez.. My posts are about as factually correct as an aviation journalists articles.

 rotfl 
Shame on you!

Aim for the sky!
Sudden



When in doubt, flat out!
User currently offlineA333TS From Canada, joined May 2008, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2033 times:



Quoting Bill142 (Reply 12):



Quote:
He became the first team owner to win the championships in their first season.

He may have won the championship with Brawn GP, but that was because the car was in the development for about 6-8 months before all other teams on the grid. All the teams were still developing 2008 models while Brawn was was spending millions of Honda's money on 2009 model. He did win 2009 championship and we can't take that away from him but you can see how much the car was falling behind when the rest of the field caught up with the development by the European Races.

Also, the illegal diffuser that he put on the car sure helped him a lot.

He is a smart guy but we will see the difference in his skills when he does not have almost unlimited resources of Ferrari and Honda to develop a car. Also, next year's car will not be in development for almost a year, unlike last year's car .


A333TS


User currently offlineWaterpolodan From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1649 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2013 times:



Quoting A333TS (Reply 21):


Also, the illegal diffuser that he put on the car sure helped him a lot.

Illegal, eh? Strange that the FIA and race scrutineers never once ruled that it was illegal, and that Williams and Toyota both had the same design from the first race on and yet never won a race... It was a loophole that only 3 teams had the foresight to exploit. Call it against the spirit of the regulations, but I say exploiting loopholes for performance advantage is exactly what the spirit of F1 is. By mid season every other car on the grid was running the same design and yet BGP were still consistently in the hunt for wins. Their advantage was down to much more than just the diffuser.

Quoting A333TS (Reply 21):
He may have won the championship with Brawn GP, but that was because the car was in the development for about 6-8 months before all other teams on the grid. All the teams were still developing 2008 models while Brawn was was spending millions of Honda's money on 2009 model. He did win 2009 championship and we can't take that away from him but you can see how much the car was falling behind when the rest of the field caught up with the development by the European Races.

Brawn/Honda are not the only team to have ever abandoned development during a season to focus on a future car, Ferrari did it this year for instance with the F60. They are however the only team to do this and turn up the following year with a dominant design and win the championship that I can think of. It's not like it was some unfair tactic employed by Brawn that takes something away from his victories, every other team has the same option and all of the teams were indeed working on their 2009 cars starting as early as the Honda/Brawn car, just not with as many engineers and wind tunnel/CAD time as the BGP car perhaps. When you say that the car fell behind, it did get caught by Red Bull and Mclaren on a good weekend towards the season's end, but it still was qualifying consistently in the top 5 and finishing on the podium. Maybe that isn't a 1-2, but I think the Brawn team did an excellent job maintaining their performance, and for all we know they may have pushed more of their manpower towards developing the 2010 car once they had achieved a dominant points lead early in the season so next year's Mercedes F1 machine will be even stronger. You seem quick to undersell Brawn's achievements, I can't understand why because the man has always been a gentleman, a great team leader, and a credit to the sport who almost singlehandedly saved the honda operation from complete withdrawal and turned the F1 pecking order on its head. I'm as big a Ferrari nut as you'll find, but I know when to give credit where it is due.


User currently offlineBill142 From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 8467 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1997 times:



Quoting A333TS (Reply 21):
Also, the illegal diffuser that he put on the car sure helped him a lot.

Yes, the same illegal diffuser that every team was running by the end of the season. I wonder how 10 teams could get away without the FIA knowing?


User currently offlineSudden From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 4130 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1993 times:



Quoting A333TS (Reply 21):
Reply 21

Oh my, apart from what Bill142 and Waterpolodan already told you, you should really try to check up on some facts before posting.
It looks more like you have something against Brawn GP as a team, or Ross Brawn himself. Either way, your lack of knowledge is really embarrasing.

Aim for the sky!
Sudden



When in doubt, flat out!
25 A333TS : Toyota and Williams did not have the same diffuser, similar but not the same. Ferrari had to redesign the rear end of the chassis in order to make a
26 Sudden : Indeed, cause he's better! Have you not read above what other members have posted? Please do check Brawns background to see what he has achived in F1
27 Waterpolodan : No, it must be wrong if and only if the FIA declares it illegal, which never happened. Any time one team or a couple teams make a step forward with a
28 A333TS : I was looking at the achievement with Brawn GP and not the other achievements that both of you guys mentioned (sorry I was not clear on that, not good
29 Sudden : In regards to the whole development of the 2009 car, Brawn was very specific about including everyone who had taken part of it. Especially the staff
30 A333TS : I don't know about that, I think having a Mercedes engine helped. But we will never know, if Honda would have stayed they may have not won the champi
31 Bill142 : It all stems from a programs and changes Ross Brawn started when he became team principal of Honda. So no matter how you look at it, the achievements
32 NA : Surely not. Brawn would mosr likely also have been one of the top teams in 2009, but it was the Mercedes engine together with Brawns superior aerodyn
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