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Democrat Infighting: Ethnic Health Care  
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 7955 posts, RR: 26
Posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1544 times:

I knew this would come up sooner or later - now apparently Emanuel has been working his tough guy magic behind the scenes to get Senate Dems to block provisions in the healthcare bill for immigrant access to the plan. Now the Hispanic caucus is up in arms. Let the infighting and sniping begin!  Yeah sure

In all seriousness, this is exactly what is wrong with Congress. Why do we need all these caucuses and PACs?? In both parties all they do is create bloat and time-wasting on all this he said/they said/we said nonsense. Shouldn't these morons on Capitol Hill be spending their valuable time more wisely? Rhetorical question, I know, but this garbage really turns my stomach.

Hispanic lawmakers say there is little doubt in their mind where the president’s increasingly tough stance on undocumented workers and their families originates.

“He still thinks immigration will defeat Democrats,” said a CHC member who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

...

Members of the CHC continue to hint that they may vote against a final health care bill if the Senate’s provision comes back to them in a health care bill.


Ouch so now the Hispanic bloc is going to play hardball with the White House?? Sounds like they're just getting started on this one.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1109/29748.html


If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18713 posts, RR: 58
Reply 1, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1535 times:

Here's my issue with not covering illegal immigrants:

What do I do when I have an illegal immigrant who shows up in my ER who's just taken a pickaxe to the back? Yes, I have had an undocumented 17yo kid show up in my ER who had just taken a pickaxe to the back when I worked in the Bronx. Fortunately for him, the pickaxe just bounced off his scapula, but had it not, he could have had a spinal injury or a punctured lung and that's expensive.

I can't just let him die. That's illegal and violates the Hippocratic Oath. But the operation to fix his lung is not going to be cheap and it needs to be done RIGHT NOW.

So who pays for it?


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8216 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1526 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
But the operation to fix his lung is not going to be cheap and it needs to be done RIGHT NOW.

So who pays for it?

Of course emergency care is paid for just as it is (or is not) paid for now.

The point is, routine care / appointments would be made on a basis of either coverage, or on a cash basis. Foreign visitors should be invited to use our medical system for cash payment. In emergency cases, they can receive care for "free," although they should be sent a bill. Or they should feel free to buy insurance. But our government would not supply such insurance to them, for example on the basis of poverty. The most responsible foreign visitors (such as tourists) do have insurance for their visit.

What do we do when we travel to Europe on vacation? One supposes we either pay in cash for our visit, or care may be given for free.


User currently offlineSeb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11140 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1514 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
I can't just let him die. That's illegal and violates the Hippocratic Oath. But the operation to fix his lung is not going to be cheap and it needs to be done RIGHT NOW.

So who pays for it?

And that is fine. But, in Wasco County, Oregon, there was (is?) a clinic sponsored by the county for Spanish speaking people only at low or no cost. They recieve routine care, basic medications and prescriptions. But, if you are white, you recieve no care at that clinic and must go to the ER or make an appointment with the regular clinic. Yes, they were covering illegals. Is that right for us to pay for people who are not citizens of this country when there are so many who were born and raised in this country that can not afford any kind of health care at all?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1512 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
So who pays for it?

The American company that employed him.


User currently offlineMham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3391 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1502 times:



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 4):
The American company that employed him.

Ouch.


User currently offlineCaliAtenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1482 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1494 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):

So who pays for it?

we do, the taxpayers. Every time an illegal comes in the ER, they have to be treated, regardless of whether or not they can afford it. Same thing with homeless people. I should know, i worked in one of my local ER's over the summer rounding with the doctors.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21129 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1467 times:



Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
In all seriousness, this is exactly what is wrong with Congress. Why do we need all these caucuses and PACs?? In both parties all they do is create bloat and time-wasting on all this he said/they said/we said nonsense.

"Should we spend money on this cause, or should we spend money on that cause? I don't know, I guess we'll have to spend money on both of them!"  Yeah sure

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 7955 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1440 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
I can't just let him die. That's illegal and violates the Hippocratic Oath. But the operation to fix his lung is not going to be cheap and it needs to be done RIGHT NOW.

So who pays for it?

The system in Japan's NHS is pretty straight-forward. If you're an illegal immigrant or are otherwise not enrolled in NHS (which is slightly under 1% of the population) you have to pay cash in full for your care. If you can't pay, they call the cops, in which case deportation is usually the end result once the Ministry of Foreign Affairs gets involved. Though that raises the question of who ultimately pays since I doubt they bill the home country. But fortunately with such dire consequences for getting caught, even most illegal immigrants here have enrolled in NHS. They are still able to pay premiums in most cases due to the factory work they come here for.

Quoting Mir (Reply 7):

"Should we spend money on this cause, or should we spend money on that cause? I don't know, I guess we'll have to spend money on both of them!"

It's the height of idiocy.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8558 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1434 times:



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 8):
It's the height of idiocy.

I agree, and that is what we seem to be very good at these days, idiocy. Sad!



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineAirstud From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2571 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1434 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
I have had an undocumented 17yo kid show up in my ER who had just taken a pickaxe to the back

The thing that pisses one off the most about urban crime and gang activity is when innocent kids get caught in the crossfire. Good kids who've never had nor wanted anything to do with gangs get taken down by a bullet on their way to school, fired by some gang member...

The fact that this sometimes happens does not mean that every time a youth in the city sustains an injury from violence, he was an innocent caught in the crossfire.

Therefore, before I can tell you Doc, what you were supposed to do, I require rather an explanation of the circumstances by which the pickaxe arrived in the youth's back.

The lengthier the explanation, the better.



Pancakes are delicious.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8558 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1424 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
"Should we spend money on this cause, or should we spend money on that cause? I don't know, I guess we'll have to spend money on both of them!"

We will find out, the Senate passed the bill on to full debate, it is about time. 60 to 39 surprise, surprise.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineJcs17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 40
Reply 12, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1421 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
Here's my issue with not covering illegal immigrants:

What do I do when I have an illegal immigrant who shows up in my ER who's just taken a pickaxe to the back? Yes, I have had an undocumented 17yo kid show up in my ER who had just taken a pickaxe to the back when I worked in the Bronx. Fortunately for him, the pickaxe just bounced off his scapula, but had it not, he could have had a spinal injury or a punctured lung and that's expensive.

I can't just let him die. That's illegal and violates the Hippocratic Oath. But the operation to fix his lung is not going to be cheap and it needs to be done RIGHT NOW.

So who pays for it?

Under our current system, I have no qualms with the taxpayer having to pick up the hospital tab. It is what it is. It sucks, it's costly, it's unfair, but unfortunately our government tends to treat illegal immigration as a necessary evil. We shouldn't refuse treatment to illegals, the homeless, etc. However, if a person doesn't have a valid social security number, and they seek treatment in a hospital, the hospital should report this person to the INS. Once the doctor allows release, the illegal immigrant should be taken into custody for deportation.



America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1410 times:



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 8):
If you're an illegal immigrant or are otherwise not enrolled in NHS (which is slightly under 1% of the population) you have to pay cash in full for your care. If you can't pay, they call the cops, in which case deportation is usually the end result once the Ministry of Foreign Affairs gets involved

Now thats a concept!


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8045 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1403 times:

It's time for a review of our immigration policies and laws.

To be blunt, I believe that one primary reason why people don't want Hispanics slipping across the border is that at some point they will become citizens. Lots of concern about whites being the minority before too long.

So maybe it is time for a new level of guest worker program, where immigrants get their work card, can live in the US legally AS LONG AS THEY PAY TAXES each year that demonstrates they are able to support themselves. Part of that tax pays their health insurance premiums, relieving a large burden for other taxpayers.

The catch? The work card does not lead to citizenship, nor can a worker using the program become citizens in the future.

Now, the only difference between a legal worker and a citizen would be the right to vote. I never thought of becoming an Australian citizen when we lived there, nor has my wife of 40 years thought of becoming a US citizen. Besides voting it really doesn't make any difference.

I believe that this type of approach sets aside the biggest fear of Hispanics and will generate taxes as that payment keeps them legal.

Then we can stop worrying about providing health care and schooling for "legal immigrants".


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8216 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1397 times:



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 14):
Lots of concern about whites being the minority before too long.

Maybe, but it's just not fair.

For every million people we deport, we should let another million in through legal and fair immigration visas. That should make it an argument about fairness and not about race.

There are people all over the globe who would like to begin a new life in the USA. No group should have an unfair advantage.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 14):
The catch? The work card does not lead to citizenship, nor can a worker using the program become citizens in the future.

That creates 2 classes of Americans for the first time. I hope we don't go there. Let's not be like Saudi Arabia. I would rather admit as many immigrants as we think we need, and let them become citizens. That is fine. Just don't give that reward to foreign visitors who broke the rules, and believe that is how it is done.


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1392 times:



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 14):
To be blunt, I believe that one primary reason why people don't want Hispanics slipping across the border is that at some point they will become citizens. Lots of concern about whites being the minority before too long.

So maybe it is time for a new level of guest worker program, where immigrants get their work card, can live in the US legally AS LONG AS THEY PAY TAXES each year that demonstrates they are able to support themselves. Part of that tax pays their health insurance premiums, relieving a large burden for other taxpayers.

The catch? The work card does not lead to citizenship, nor can a worker using the program become citizens in the future.

Now, the only difference between a legal worker and a citizen would be the right to vote. I never thought of becoming an Australian citizen when we lived there, nor has my wife of 40 years thought of becoming a US citizen. Besides voting it really doesn't make any difference.

I believe that this type of approach sets aside the biggest fear of Hispanics and will generate taxes as that payment keeps them legal.

Then we can stop worrying about providing health care and schooling for "legal immigrants".

Their is no fear of hispanics. They do the jobs Americans won't and they should he handled like any other immigrant. Legally entering the country on a work visa where they should be taxed like any other worker and then can benefit from any healthcare system as long as they are not illegal. After which if they want to go through the system and become citizens so be it.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18713 posts, RR: 58
Reply 17, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1386 times:



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):

Their is no fear of hispanics.

Is that why towns with high numbers of Hispanics keep declaring the official town language as English?


User currently offlineSeb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11140 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days ago) and read 1351 times:



Quoting Flighty (Reply 15):
That creates 2 classes of Americans for the first time. I hope we don't go there.

I hate to tell you, but we are already there. There are always illegals waiting for work in front of Home Depot and along some of the streets around here. Do they get paid by the hour and have taxes taken out and get a lunch break and rest periods?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18713 posts, RR: 58
Reply 19, posted (4 years 5 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1333 times:



Quoting Airstud (Reply 10):

Therefore, before I can tell you Doc, what you were supposed to do, I require rather an explanation of the circumstances by which the pickaxe arrived in the youth's back.

There's a lot of violence towards illegal immigrants, especially from 2nd generation kids whose parents were illegal immigrants. They form gangs and beat up on illegal immigrants. Don't ask me why; it doesn't make any sense.

Kid was minding his own business when he got beat up by a gang of such kids.


User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (4 years 5 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1318 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
Is that why towns with high numbers of Hispanics keep declaring the official town language as English

So what? Personally I believe any person who immigrates here should learn the language. Stop throwing out these scare bombs. They really serve no purpose. If a town feels immigrants should learn the language that is their choice. It doesn't mean they are scared of anyone.


User currently offlineSeb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11140 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (4 years 5 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1299 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
They form gangs and beat up on illegal immigrants. Don't ask me why; it doesn't make any sense.

I don't understand that feeling, either. My father and his siblings (save one) were all born in this country. One was born in Ireland. They all hated immigrants, no matter where they were from. It *may* be that these second generation that are being violent want to show people they are "American" and that those that are not "American" are not worthy. Sad.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 20):
If a town feels immigrants should learn the language that is their choice. It doesn't mean they are scared of anyone.

I have never been able to find anywhere in the Constitution that says the official language of this country is English. It is the most widely used, obviously, but no where, but no where does it say we all BY LAW have to speak English.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineAirstud From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2571 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (4 years 5 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1297 times:

If a person has made a decision to make the United States their permanent home, then (regardless of the legality of how they go about it) I think it's irresponsible of them not to learn English.

I was "shamed" by my politically correct friends for not having learned any French prior to my visit to Québec City. And maybe it was shameful of me not to do that, ahead of my three-day visit.

Those same politically correct folks, for some reason, don't think the shame extends to people who don't learn any English prior to their 30-, 40-, 50-, 80-year "visits" to the United States.

Why is that? Why shame only one of two identical sides of a coin?

[Edited 2009-11-22 17:24:00]


Pancakes are delicious.
User currently offlineNIKV69 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (4 years 5 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1293 times:



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 21):
I have never been able to find anywhere in the Constitution that says the official language of this country is English. It is the most widely used, obviously, but no where, but no where does it say we all BY LAW have to speak English

Ok, I am not going to enter in this debate but if a country was nice enough to afford me entry and a much better life I would make it my business to learn the language. Not stand on some ritual like you would. That is just me.

Quoting Airstud (Reply 22):
If a person has made a decision to make the United States their permanent home, then (regardless of the legality of how they go about it) I think it's irresponsible of them not to learn English

Your right by Seb146 is trying to win a propaganda battle here. Of course you should learn english if you move here. Nobody is saying you have to abandon your native language but my father learned English when he got here. So now he speaks two languages. It's only right.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16694 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (4 years 5 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1278 times:



Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
now apparently Emanuel has been working his tough guy magic behind the scenes to get Senate Dems to block provisions in the healthcare bill for immigrant access to the plan.

Good.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
25 WildcatYXU : That's only because they're illegal. Otherwise they would be as picky as born Americans. Sorry Seb146, while I've got your point, I have to disagree
26 Aaron747 : Irrelevant. The official language is meaningless in a country like the US that's why there isn't one. There is however a dominant functional lingua f
27 NIKV69 : I disagree, I have worked in two industries that use migrant labor as major percentage of their workforce and I have never seen more hardworking, ded
28 EA772LR : As well, this whole business about English being the declared language...uh what's wrong with that?? This is an English speaking country. Please do n
29 Seb146 : Nik, Wildcat, and Aaron: I understand that legally, English is the language. For entering contracts and such. But, I am talking about every day life.
30 DocLightning : There is no debate. The fact is that the United States of America recognizes no official language. That is a fact. It is not open to debate. The de f
31 EA772LR : That's hogwash. The basic principles for which we grew to be the strongest nation in the world came from: A. A common language. B. A free-enterprise
32 Ken777 : There would be one group (Americans) and a second group (immigrants) - no different than now. All that we would be doing is requiring payment of vari
33 MSNDC9 : We can't control illegal immigration now. Providing yet another incentive for coming to America isn't going to help. We cannot afford it to insure pe
34 Flighty : Yeah, but, those are 2 friendly rich Western nations. Both countries deny unlimited immigrants from say, India. I take your point that we already hav
35 DocLightning : You're not answering my question: what am I supposed to do with him? Screw immigration. Screw insurance. Screw official languages. I have a 17yo kid
36 Ken777 : Personally I love the idea as they would start paying taxes. As Martha would say, "That's a good thing." I also believe that a lot of these workers w
37 Seb146 : Tell that to the immigrants who grew up speaking something other than English until they entered grade school. My father, for example, spoke German a
38 Ual777 : D, then b, a, and finally c.
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